If I have multiple attacks from duel-wielding, quick-draw and high base attack bonus, or whatever, can I throw multiple javelins of lightning in a round?
Or is the act of activating/throwing, in this instance, meant to be a standard action?
Now, if I can, since Ultimate Equipment makes it pretty clear that you can change out the base armor/weapons when crafting specific magical armor/weapons, is there anything (besides the GM) preventing me from having several shuriken of lightning made, then throwing around a dozen of them with the Flurry of Stars ninja trick, Rapid Shot feat, and Two-Weapon Fighting feat?
You should probably include a link to the UE quote allowing you to change out the base armor/weapons like you're talking. It'snot immediately clear where you're pulling that rule from, nor is it intuitive, since there are specific weapons that seem to inherently require certain bases to work with (various specific nets, the Fighter's Fork).
It's a regular attack, so yes, you can throw several in a single round.
No idea what you're talking about with this "change out base weapon" bit. Sounds interesting though!
If I have multiple attacks from duel-wielding, quick-draw and high base attack bonus, or whatever, can I throw multiple javelins of lightning in a round?
Or is the act of activating/throwing, in this instance, meant to be a standard action?
Now, if I can, since Ultimate Equipment makes it pretty clear that you can change out the base armor/weapons when crafting specific magical armor/weapons, is there anything (besides the GM) preventing me from having several shuriken of lightning made, then throwing around a dozen of them with the Flurry of Stars ninja trick, Rapid Shot feat, and Two-Weapon Fighting feat?
The price? Throwing a bunch of 1500 gold shuriken each round would get very expensive very quickly.
Can't find the rule specifically stated. Think I might have gotten it mixed up with the rules in UE and UC that make it clear that you can upgrade specific magical armor and weapons--which is a little different than changing the base weapon.
What I meant was doing something like crafting a blade of binding that is a spiked chain rather than a greatsword, or a +5 fullplate of luck rather than the more traditional banded mail of luck, or a shuriken of lightning rather than a javelin of lightning.
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The price? Throwing a bunch of 1500 gold shuriken each round would get very expensive very quickly.I expect he intends that 50 lighting shiruken should cost the same as 1 javelin, as they are priced as ammunition blah blah.
Also, there is some class feature that lets you get infinite copies of shiruken. A Vigilante talent maybe?
The better answer to the op's question, in my opinion, is "good taste and/or a sense of fair play."
I don't think so, Rav generally is reasonable about that kind of things, and the javelin is already a one shot item.
That said, as the original weapon require quick-draw for iterative attacks, I would require the same for the alternate version. For me daggers of lightning are ok, shuriken or arrows aren't.
To reply to the initial question, yes, you can use multiple javelin of lightning in one round. The are use activated.
I expect he intends that 50 lighting shuriken should cost the same as 1 javelin, as they are priced as ammunition blah blah.
The price? Throwing a bunch of 1500 gold shuriken each round would get very expensive very quickly.
Certainly not! For starters, it's 5 shuriken for 1gp, not 50. What's more, the 1,500gp for the javelin of lightning doesn't appear to have the weapon cost tacked on; you're basically paying for a spell effect rather than a magical weapon. Nope, it would be a costly 1,500 for each expendable shuriken of lightning.
I'm thinking that, at best, making them into shuriken would allow them to work with certain class abilities (like the ninja's Flurry of Stars, rather than some sort of "infinite shuriken" loop) and also make them lighter. Weight isn't too much of a balancing factor in the game, either; so much so that many tables don't even bother with it. Note too that I'm actually using more resources to do this. Two-levels in the ninja class for a few times a day ability plus several feats is much more costly than some guy who uses regular javelins of lightning and quick-draw.
That being said, if there was some "infinite ammo" loop out there in which the developers didn't account for magical ammunition, then that's totally on them. That's a hell of an error to make in one's game design.
One still cannot buy a -set- of 50 "Shuriken" of Lightning though. So I don't think it matters.
Probably not, like most things that end up getting debated over.
But you can only enhance ammo in sets of 50 (at least for pricing) and there is no ehancement bonus for - of Lightning. Assuming a player is willing to chuck out the gold for 50 of the suckers, can we really say that they bought it as a set (Meaning the wizard using crafting rules could make 50 of them at a single time as if he were making 50 +1 shuriken)?
And I agree that all are equally valid, but I do think it would be against intent of the ability/crafting rules in this case.
I'm not saying I have a problem with it in terms of price. I just think that a lot of vigilantes at level 14 would think its worth the price to throw 20d6 (or more) points of damage a round with only reflex saves for half with no attack rolls. While the "infinite" use javelin would require a means to retrieve it for each attack and would be near impossible to full round attack with.
So, I cannot say either of our views on the matter is right or wrong, I'm perfectly fine with just telling my players "NO! Bad Batman!" in this scenario, even if you would rule otherwise. Whatever works for our groups style and fun is all that truly matters.
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Hmm? No, it accounts for magic thrown weapons by explicitly allowing them. Let me see if I can find it...
Ah yes, Returning Weapon vigilante talent. Requires vigilante level 14 for the relevant effect.
At 14th level, if the vigilante chose a type of thrown weapon that is treated as ammunition, such as shuriken, and buys a set of 50 magic ammunition of that type, he automatically replenishes them at no cost and never runs out. If he chose a non-ammunition thrown weapon instead, he can apply the magical properties of the first weapon he throws in a round to any non-magical thrown weapons of that type he throws that round.
There is only a "little" drawback in that idea, you need a set of 50 shuriken of lightning.
1 item "of lightning" = 1,500 gp50 = 75,000
So, 75.000 gp of an endless supply of shuriken of lightning. And a GM willing to call them a set (not granted, as they are enchanted individually and not as a single group) and willing to allow you to enchant ammunition with a specific weapon property used for a throwing weapon.
Hmm? No, it accounts for magic thrown weapons by explicitly allowing them. Let me see if I can find it...
Ah yes, Returning Weapon vigilante talent. Requires vigilante level 14 for the relevant effect.
At 14th level, if the vigilante chose a type of thrown weapon that is treated as ammunition, such as shuriken, and buys a set of 50 magic ammunition of that type, he automatically replenishes them at no cost and never runs out. If he chose a non-ammunition thrown weapon instead, he can apply the magical properties of the first weapon he throws in a round to any non-magical thrown weapons of that type he throws that round.There is only a "little" drawback in that idea, you need a set of 50 shuriken of lightning.
1 item "of lightning" = 1,500 gp
50 = 75,000So, 75.000 gp of an endless supply of shuriken of lightning. And a GM willing to call them a set (not granted, as they are enchanted individually and not as a single group) and willing to allow you to enchant ammunition with a specific weapon property used for a throwing weapon.
I'm not sure that compares to existing items well. Take the ring of telekinesis, for example. It is also a 75,000gp at-will spell-in-a-can, but allows for a higher level spell at a higher caster level.
I suppose the weapons of lightning still get a leg up though, seeing as they can hit multiple targets and be used with iterative attacks.
When did I become the one arguing in favor of this? I was just clarifying what I was referring to.
While the "infinite" use javelin would require a means to retrieve it for each attack and would be near impossible to full round attack with.Only if you assume whatever arcanist created it was really stupid, or it's cursed with a drawback, or the gm is being pointlessly spiteful. Thats like saying someone can make a reusable potion, then insisting they distill it out of their urine.
A javelin that remains in your hand after throwing it makes more sense, but I honestly prefer the "endless quiver" style.
"Quiver of the Sky God" or "Pouch of Endless Night" for shuriken...
Allow up to 5 masterwork weapons to exist out of the bag at any given time, they disappear after 1 minute or when more are drawn. Wearer may speak a command word as a swift action to cause the weapons he throws from the bag to function as "of lighting" weapons until he speaks the command word again. 75000 sound about right for such an item? Make it require proficiency?
When a person defends a position, without mentioning that they are playing devil's advocate, it is usually because it's the position they agree with. Sorry for the assumption.
Also, how do you throw a javelin without throwing the javelin? I suppose you could make a javelin that shoots a lightning bolt, but that really gets rid of the flavor in my opinion.
If you assume that the guy with the Javelin made the same feat and class investment? The Javelin gains tge returning property when he throws it, and all mundane javelins he throws that turn gain it's magical properties.
I have not looked at the vigilante really at all. So do they have an ability that allows them to get the returning property to thrown weapons? Or would that increase the cost of the javelin?
How do you throw a javelin so that it turns into lighting? You throw it, it turns into lightning, and then it's still in your hand. Because magic.
Also, how do you throw a javelin without throwing the javelin?
That's considerably more powerful than the returning weapon property.
It is the first part of tge talent I mentioned above. When you first take it, you pick a weapon and anyweapon of that type you throw automatically gains the returning property. At 14th level, it makes mundane weapons thrown after a magic weapon gain their magic properties. Or gives you infinite shuriken.
Sorry, I did not look at the entire talent. I only read what you posted.
And considerably more costly, as what you have is a 3rd level spell in a bottle, not a weapon, essentially.That's considerably more powerful than the returning weapon property.How do you throw a javelin so that it turns into lighting? You throw it, it turns into lightning, and then it's still in your hand. Because magic.
Also, how do you throw a javelin without throwing the javelin?
I agree that it's much more costly. Just mentioning that the price you gave before was not including a "returning" property before.
Alright then. Fair enough.
Just curious, would you allow such an item to be created in your game (noting that it costs half as much to craft)? Because I have a couple of characters that would love to full round lightning bolts (even if capped at 5d6) when needed or just for fun really.
I would also like to apologize if my posts are coming off as hostile or anything of the sort. I promise that I'm having a good time in our current debate and greatly appreciate your views on this manner.
EDIT: Forgot a couple of words, sorry. Bolded them.
Alright then. Fair enough.
Just curious, would you allow such an item to be created in your game (noting that it costs half as much)? Because I have a couple of characters that would love to full round lightning bolts (even if capped at 5d6) when needed or just for fun really.
Initially no, but at some point I have talked myself into it. Price wise, it is equivalent to a +6 weapon. Not an ideal way to spend your gold, but if it makes someone happy, I can't think of a good reason to disallow it. But I would probably insist on the magic bag approach above. Lightning is far from the most abusive thing someone could do with a 3rd level spell.
I would also like to apologizeNo need, you seem perfectly cordial to me.
For me, I think I would have to either bump up the price or just limit it to once or twice a round. One of the characters I mentioned is a thrown weapon specialist. He has the whole quick draw, rapid shot thing going for him and at level 11 (might be able to convince crafting wizard to build one within price range) would have 4 attacks a round. That's 20d6 (min 20 or 10 on a save, max 120 or 60 on a save, avg 70 or 35 on a save) that doesn't "miss", that has an element not commonly resisted, and can hit multiple enemies. That's a really good item.
Imagine a ninja having a shuriken version of that? They could easily get 5 or more of them chucked a turn depending on choices made.
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It is the first part of tge talent I mentioned above. When you first take it, you pick a weapon and anyweapon of that type you throw automatically gains the returning property. At 14th level, it makes mundane weapons thrown after a magic weapon gain their magic properties. Or gives you infinite shuriken.
You forgot the part " that is treated as ammunition,". Javelin or daggers aren't treated as ammunition, so the infinite ammunition part is not applicable to them.
For the "infinite javelin of lightning", it only give the returning ability to a throw weapon, but the returning ability don't overcome the "It is consumed in the attack. " part of the javelin of lightning description. As it is consumed, there is nothing to return.
The returning ability say: "A returning weapon flies through the air back to the creature that threw it." If the weapon is consumed, there is nothing that flies back to you.
So you will consume a javelin of lightning for every full attack you make.
Better than consuming 6 of them, but not infinite.
Exactly, as im not pricing it as a "magic weapon" but as a use activated spell item, which it is. How it gets back in your hand is just fluff, mechanically there is no reason it needs to actually leave. Especially when you consider that "Random Stick of Lightning" already costs half as much.
How a returning weapon return to your hand isn't fluff. It has a lot of gaming effects.
èquote=PRD]Returning: This special ability can only be placed on a weapon that can be thrown. A returning weapon flies through the air back to the creature that threw it. It returns to the thrower just before the creature's next turn (and is therefore ready to use again in that turn). Catching a returning weapon when it comes back is a free action. If the character can't catch it, or if the character has moved since throwing it, the weapon drops to the ground in the square from which it was thrown.
Almost all of the effect is based on it flying back to you and not teleporting, staying in your hand and so on.
I think my big deal isn't so much of a "reuseable" lightning bolt. If a person gets 1 lightning bolt/day (or even round) that matter is far less concerning than getting 5 or more lightning bolts in a round.
I'm perfectly okay with the item listed above. Heck, if a player wanted to pay the difference to make it a +1 returning shock starknife, I'd be okay. I would even be okay with the idea of combining that with the 14th level vigilante talent to allow the player to royally destroy a line of bad guys with however many copies he could throw in that round.
I just wouldn't allow the creation of an item that allowed them to do that every turn.
Lightning bolts that can be used iteratively as attack actions? Nope.I know the kneejerk reaction is that turning a spell into an iterative attack sounds ridiculously strong, but at the level it comes online enemies are almost always going to make the save and AoE or not, averaging 8.75 damage per attack in the mid-teens is bad enough to fit comfortably in the "most frustratingly weak characters" thread. Doubly so since Line isn't a particularly good AoE type and the javelin's mechanics make it fairly hard to optimize.
If a player came to me with this sort of build I'd be more worried about how to buff it sufficiently so they don't drag down the party with it.
Yeah honestly it's an incredible item and a good piece of treasure (that's consumable!) for about levels 1-5 - outside of that it really looses it's luster quickly and even an unlimited supply of these things is entirely shut down by a single resist energy spell, which is on every spell list and easy to scroll or even potion.
Lightning bolts that can be used iteratively as attack actions? Nope.I know the kneejerk reaction is that turning a spell into an iterative attack sounds ridiculously strong, but at the level it comes online enemies are almost always going to make the save and AoE or not, averaging 8.75 damage per attack in the mid-teens is bad enough to fit comfortably in the "most frustratingly weak characters" thread. Doubly so since Line isn't a particularly good AoE type and the javelin's mechanics make it fairly hard to optimize.
If a player came to me with this sort of build I'd be more worried about how to buff it sufficiently so they don't drag down the party with it.
This isn't as much of a kneejerk reaction as you might think though. Here's the math I see:
Level Human 11 Fighter (just because I feel that's about the level they'd need to be to buy such an item)
Stats don't really matter as we don't even need to figure out attack rolls, just number of attacks, STR would be nice for encumberance. BAB gives 3 attacks.
If focusing on throwing weapons, here's my feat spread:
Human) Point-Blank Shot
1st) Precise Shot
1st) Quick Draw
2nd) Rapid Shot
3rd) Weapon Focus (Javelin)
4th) Weapon Spec (Javelin)
5th) Two Weapon Fighting
6th) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
7th) Deadly Aim
8th) Greater Weapon Focus (Javelin)
9th) Improved Critical (Javelin)
10th) -Critical Feat-
11th) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
With this feat selection, that gives 7 attacks. That's 35d6 in a round. Even with it averaging 8.75 (That's only assuming they actually make the save on each attack) an attack, that is 61 damage a round that could not miss, with possibility to hit more than one opponent for just as much.
Not saying that it's more than the same fighter not using the lightning bolts, but that same fighter is going to miss a lot more often and only have one target.
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Hmm, this is interesting
Clear precedence for a reusable lighting weapon. 13k for 1/day cl 8. Should be 9600. Increasing price by a third, or so?
Also, it's only 6k more than the Javelin, weighs less, does more damage,and is an actual magic weapon... a much better base object for Ravingdork to base his shiruken off of.
No daily limit increases the cost by x5, 65000 plus the price of a +2 weapon (~8300) so slightly cheaper even ...
Linkfied.
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I've also seen a consensus of people that hold the position that Deadly Aim does nothing if you don't make an attack roll, but I can't find a definitive rules citation to back that up.
Deadly Aim (Combat)
You can make exceptionally deadly ranged attacks by pinpointing a foe's weak spot, at the expense of making the attack less likely to succeed.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all ranged attack rolls to gain a +2 bonus on all ranged damage rolls. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
If you aren't making a ranged attack roll you can't take the penalty.
With a lighting bolt you aren't making a ranged attack so you can't add the bonus damage to the damage roll.
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If I have multiple attacks from duel-wielding, quick-draw and high base attack bonus, or whatever, can I throw multiple javelins of lightning in a round?
Or is the act of activating/throwing, in this instance, meant to be a standard action?
Depends on the GM. I had a thread going a while back where there seemed to be much debate on wether the Javelin of Lightning qualified as an actual Javelin when thrown, or if it was considered casting the spell. In that thread, I was asking with regards to using the Fighter Weapon Training damage bonus with the Lightning Javelin.
GM may consider it to fuction as the spell, in which case it doesn't qualify as a thrown weapon at all, and requires a standard action to use.
Personally, I see no issue with the character that wants to blow 1500gp per shot in a rapid barrage of thrown lightning javelins. Only foreseeable issue is if the PC then complains later about the GM being stingy with money, since they spend their gold far too quickly with such a tactic.
I am used to having access to a crafting available, so I apologize about the level. By typical WBL, you are correct at 14 being the general availability.
That was just a sample build I had for a Javelin user in general. I would assume that a fighter wouldn't use pure lightning javelins in case of the rare immunity/resistance. I apologize for not specifying that. So many of the feats would not be used in terms of attack/damage rolls.
In terms of the CR chart, that is only against one baddie. I wouldn't (personally) waste lightning bolts on just one baddie unless he had weakness to it. And regardless is a good tactic if AC is too difficult to target/is immune to weapon damage, as 61 (average with save) damage in a round is still a very solid amount of practically unavoidable damage, where a wizard of 14th level casting an intensified quickened lightning bolt with an intensified lightning bolt could produce around 49 (average with save) to 98 (average without save) under the same circumstances.
Anyways, I've made my arguments against the idea, it really is up to GM in the end though.