I'm building a level 20 Oracle that will round out a team of BBEG's the party will have the misfortune of facing off against. These BBEG's will be a recurring group that our party will have to deal with to SAVE THE UNIVERSE...
I would like any suggestions on how to build the most maximized Juju oracle possible. The concept is an oracle who is pretty much the opposite of the Life oracle PC in the group and I figured what would be better than someone who can control hordes and hordes of undead. The build could be completed using any source material from Paizo.
Like I said the character is going to be level 20 no race has been decided yet. I'm thinking of going Dual-cursed Juju oracle with the lich curse of corruption (from PCS: HR) and haunted. my stat rolls (in no particular order) were 15, 17, 13, 13, 11, 18.
That's where I'm at right now any and all advice would be appreciated. Thank you
If you're looking for inspiration, try Araonna Chorster on for size. She's a 15th-level human death oracle that leads an army of non-evil undead, including a crimson worm zombie (think, "bigger purple worm") that functions as a makeshift "ground-craft carrier." Her worm has been known to create destabilizing underground tunnels, burying whole cities prior to an attack by the rest of her undead forces (which generally make short work of any remaining survivors).
At a glance, she can control at least 180 HD worth of undead via animate dead, though she can control much more with her Command Undead feat. All of her undead minions were created in a desecrated area with an alter, which currently resides on another plane of existence (created vis lesser create demiplane) that resides within her purple worm zombie's maw (which she treats as an aircraft carrier of sorts). In general, she has her purple worm come up in the midst of her foes, spewing forth undead giants and wreaking havoc while she and her cyclops lieutenant fly over head raining down spells and boulders from their undead roc steeds.
If more numbers are needed, she will create a host of uncontrolled undead, leave them in her demiplane, and set them loose upon her enemies when and where appropriate.
The only way I can see having a larger undead army is to either have a higher level character, be a mystic theurge, or invest in Words of Power (specifically the UNDEATH power word).
Feel free to modify her to taste if you like. Also, be sure to check out my Crazy Character Emporium for other inspiring characters.
Araonna is yours? That's awesome she inspired one of my characters to a certain degree (the worm demiplane idea was useful). I've seen her pop up on the internet in a few places never realised she was yours.
EDIT: for the record command undead will allow you to control a bigger horde but acquiring that spell on an oracle is tricky, unless you're a Samsaran, which isn't a bad idea. Could pick up some other fun wizard spells like contingency and Suffocate mass. Although doing that to a party might be a bit much.
Actually never mind you can't get them that way.
Araonna is yours? That's awesome she inspired one of my characters to a certain degree (the worm demiplane idea was useful). I've seen her pop up on the internet in a few places never realized she was yours.
Yes, she's from my Character Emporium (updates and commentary thread here). 95% of the stuff in there are my original creations, of which she was one (the rest being made by my real life friends).
You've seen her outside these forums? Please do tell! I love seeing my work getting out in the world.
I would suggest looking at the spirit guide archetype with the bones spirit. The bone lock hex can really mess people up, and it gives you a host of other nice abilities. For curses I would go with Lich and/or Covetous and for feats I'd be looking at Charnel Soldiers and Undead Master.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
This build maxes out the potential Undead Horde in two ways: Two Animate Dead "Buckets" and Two Command Undead Feat "Buckets". Your casting progression will suffer, but by level 20, you will cast like a level 16 Oracle and a level 11 Witch, as well as a Coven of Witches to support you, and having an absolutely massive undead army bolstered by your Agent of the Grave PrC abilities.
Any race, max out Int and Cha. Cha is key ability modifier in this build, so pump this higher than Int. Get Magical Knack Trait (Choose Oracle) and pick any other Trait.
1: Juju Oracle 1: Undead Servitude Revelation (Command Undead as a bonus feat), Feat: Spell focus (necromancy), + any feat you want if you go Human
2: Juju Oracle 2:
3: Juju Oracle 3: Revelation: Spirit Vessels, Feat: Spell Specialization (animate dead, lesser)
4: Juju Oracle 4: 2nd lvl Oracle Spells
5: Witch1 (Gravewalker Archetype) Bonethrall acts exactly as Command Undead feat. Feat: Metamagic or Extra Hex
6: Witch 2: Hex: Coven
7: Witch 3: Use Poppet Familiar for touch attacks at 25ft within Aura of Desecration. 2nd lvl Witch spells. Feat: Metamagic or Extra Hex
8: Mystic Theurge 1:
9: Mystic Theurge 2: Feat: Varisian Tattoo (Necromancy), change Spell Specialization to animate dead (at this point you can create up to (3+2+2+1)CL*6= 48HD of undead as a Witch and (4+2+2+2+1)*6= 66HD as a Juju Oracle using animate dead
At lvl 9:
Caster level is 3Witch + 2(Mystic Theurge) + 2(Spell Spec) +1(Varisian Tattoo)= 8*6 = 48HD Undead
Caster level is 4Oracle + 2(Mystic Theurge) + 2(Spell Spec) + 1(Varisian Tattoo) + 2(Magical Knack) = 11*6 = 66HD Undead
=114HD Undead
10-14: Agent of the Grave1-5, increase your Oracle spellcasting progression, make sure you have 3 metamagic feats before you get Spell Perfection at 15.
My recommendations are Extend Spell (for Command Undead spell), Heighten Spell, Persistent Spell, Quicken Spell or Dazing Spell, or anything else you might want.
15-20: Mystic Theurge3-8, for your lvl15Feat: Spell Perfection (animate dead). Spell Spec and Varisian Tattoo CL bonuses are doubled with Spell Perfection. Lvl17 & 19 feats can be anything.
At lvl 15:
Caster level is 3Witch + 4(Mystic Theurge) + 4(Spell Spec) +2(Varisian Tattoo)= 13*6 = 78HD Undead
Caster level is 4Oracle + 4(Mystic Theurge) +5AotG (counts as +10) + 4(Spell Spec) +2(Varisian Tattoo)= 24*6 = 144HD Undead
=222HD total Undead
At lvl 20:
Caster level is 3Witch + 8(Mystic Theurge) + 4(Spell Spec) +2(Varisian Tattoo)= 17*6 = 102HD Undead
Caster level is 4Oracle + 8(Mystic Theurge) +5AotG (counts as +10) + 4(Spell Spec) +2(Varisian Tattoo)= 28*6 = 168HD Undead
=270HD total Undead via Animate Dead.
.
Increase your CL with items and this 270HD number goes up. This is without considering how many Undead you can control with Undead Servitude revelation and the Bonethrall from Witch, nor how many Undead you can juggle with Extended Command Undead spells. So get Undead Master in there somewhere, because Undead Servitude revelation does some heavy lifting in your army as well, and your Command Undead spell duration becomes to 2days/level - with Extend Spell your Command Undead Spell is doubled, and can affect an Undead for 4days/level.
As a Witch who is not dependent upon Hexes, the best hex to get is Coven. Your CL will be less because of all the Multi-classing, and your Coven can turn this weakness back to a positive amount with Aid Another.
Bonethrall is entirely CL dependent, so get the biggest baddest monster (preferably an ancient dragon, tarrasque, or any colossal creature) thing you can find, get your CL boosted as much as possible with your Coven and turn on all your CL-increasing items like Beads of Karma, and turn that thing into a Bonethrall in front of your desecrated altar.
Agent of the Grave is an awesome PrC for Necromancers. They get all kinds of fun abilities. https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/a-b/agent-of- the-grave/
I thought that the Mystic Theurge has long been the pinnacle of Necromancy... why start casting shade now? Does this occur often enough to be considered a problem? Just let it be scary and fun. Put the banhammer away.
Sorry for digging this from the grave, but since we are talking about animating the dead...
I dont thik you should be abble to count 2 separated HD controll polls for each caster. I think you only take your highest caster level to determine maximum HD of undead you can controll per level.
See here:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?236610-3-5-Mystic-Theurge-and-An imate-Dead
This can be interpreted several ways and each interpretation has it's own issues.
The spell Animate Dead appears on no less than 11 different class spell lists. Does this mean that each one of those would represent a different "pool of undead control"? What if you're playing a class and you've added Animate dead to your list, does this count as yet another one?
If they do then you can more easily "break the system" by just using scrolls and a class like Pathfinder Savant that gets to use their own caster level in place of the scroll's caster level. Now you get your Levelx11+ pools of control.
Going the other way however, also causes problems. If you limit it to only the character's highest caster level. Then what happens when someone without any caster levels casts the spell via UMD? Does the spell Animate Dead not allow the rogue to control the undead they created?
If they are able to control them, for how long? Do they now have to constantly make UMD checks in order to keep the spell "fooled"? What if they use another scroll that's lower level? Does the lower level spell over-ride the previous spell casting, causing the rogue to suddenly lose control of some of the undead they previously controlled?
I have my own opinions about how it "should" work, but that conversation requires acknowledgement that at best the current wording is vague and unclear.
If there is one thread that should be dug from the grave it is this one.
The thread quoted by Crobat has a link to another thread that concerns casting animate dead from a wand, which reaches a conclusion of-
"When you're using a wand, you use the wand's caster level. The control limit is written in the spell, and the spell is Instant. Ergo, it's checked at the time of casting. So at the time of casting, any undead you control in excess of 4*CL become free-willed. While casting off of a wand, your effective caster level is that of the wand.
So if you've got a caster level of 15, you can control 60 HD of undead from the spell Animate Dead. If you pick up a wand of Animate Dead at caster level 5, and use it to animate a human skeleton, then at that point, you can control up to 20 HD of undead. You get your skeleton, and then any undead under your control in excess of 20 HD become free-willed (so this is probably a bad idea)."
Both these threads concern D & D 3.5. Nobody has noted, or maybe noticed, this.
So 3 questions.
1 Is the second thread, the one I quoted, right?
2 Then the thread Crobat links to cites the 2nd thread saying that this reasoning applies to the case of having 2 classes that can cast animate dead. Does this follow?
3 Does any of this apply to Pathfinder?
Well, I looked up animate dead from 3.5 and it reads, as relevant-
"The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely. No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled. (You choose which creatures are released.) If you are a cleric, any undead you might command by virtue of your power to command or rebuke undead do not count toward the limit."
The same, relevant,part of the spell from Pathfinder reads-
"The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely. No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled. You choose which creatures are released. Undead you control through the Command Undead feat do not count toward this limit."
These wordings are identical except that the second last sentence appears in parenthesis in 3.5 and the last sentence is differently worded because a cleric in Pathfinder needs a feat to control undead with channel energy but doesn't in 3.5. Aside from that they say the same thing.
Not knowing much about 3.5 or how the rules for that relate to Pathfinder I can't resolve the issue.
As for Pathfinder as far as I can recall the guides I have read all assume if you have 2 or more classes capable of casting animate dead the 2 pools of undead work and are calculated separately. This, as Voodooist Monk notes, makes the Mystic Theurge the pinnacle of Necromancy.
If you follow the build Ryze Kuja posted, which honestly, is quite solid... it doesn't really overtake any other Necromancer build until level 9. This is probably the extent that about half the games out there go. So you literally never even see it's potential at this level.
Level 15 it is online and scary, noticeably better than a lot of generic Necromancy builds. However, level 15 is seldom seen as a PC, and if you get there, you deserve to be rewarded for your investments. You deserve to be scary.
Level 20, it's scary. Lots of things are scary with 20 class levels. Become a Lich, enjoy your time as the BBEG for a homebrew campaign.
Case and point, there is literally no use nerfing the way it works right meow. It will rarely ever be seen, even by those rare individuals who want to play a Necromancer.
Both these threads concern D & D 3.5. Nobody has noted, or maybe noticed, this.So 3 questions.
1 Is the second thread, the one I quoted, right?
2 Then the thread Crobat links to cites the 2nd thread saying that this reasoning applies to the case of having 2 classes that can cast animate dead. Does this follow?
3 Does any of this apply to Pathfinder?
So, pretty much out of principle any time someone necro's a thread I don't bother reading anything prior to the person necroing the thread. I'm not going to waste my time reading a bunch of posts that are likely unrelated to the necroer's question. Additionally, it's not unusual for FAQs and/or additional information/rulings to have happened that make many of the older statements out right false.
Now, to answer your questions.
1. Your quote is my exact interpretation of how it works across the board. The spell constitutes a single pool of control regardless of the class casting the spell. Control is checked at the time of casting and at no other time. This means that if you can cast the spell as a 10th level wizard and as a 7th level cleric, you will never want to cast the spell as a cleric because when you do the spell checks your control against a lower caster level than what you're capable of. It sucks, but it's the most balanced interpretation I've seen and it prevents mystic thergue from being any better at being a necromancer than any other caster in terms of "pools of control".
Is it correct? this is unclear. As I said before the wording is ambiguous and so you are bound to see quite a bit of table variation. I can't say that Voodistmonk's interpretation is wrong. Only that I disagree with it.
2. I believe this is based on the idea that all spells are divine or arcane (though now they can be psychic as well, which should allow for a 3rd pool via this line of reasoning) and so casting the divine version is different than casting the arcane version. It's not based on nothing but it's also not directly supported by the rules either. It's simply a different interpretation that doesn't conflict with what's written.
3. Pathfinder is based on D&D 3.5 and is sometimes called D&D 3.75. Much of the content was a straight cut and paste of what existed in 3.5 while other things got changed. The general consensus is that if something worked a certain way in 3.5 and nothing in pathfinder states that it works differently you can safely use the old 3.5 rule to fill the gap. A DM can certainly rule differently, but if a player or DM wants a rule that's written down this may be the only place to find such a thing. It isn't considered RAW if that's what you're asking. But it could probably be considered to be RAI which is good enough for some DMs.
I quite agree on all points VoodooistMonk. I just started trying to figure out the right answer logically. And got rather carried away,not for the first time.
I do want to play a necromancer someday. But have never managed to even start, much less design a character to level 20. Ryze Kuja's does seem good.