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So, based on the codes of the other gods from Faiths of Purity, there are anywhere from Four(Torag) to Ten(Iomedae). To shoot for average, perhaps six is a good number for a Paladin of Brigh?
• I will endeavor to be precise. Whether in word or deed, time lost is potential lost, and even the most fleeting moment can make a world of difference.
• I will foster, promote, and respect the pursuit of knowledge. Those that seek to suppress and deny such pursuits are in opposition to me.
• I will seek out lost techniques and technologies with which to foster even greater innovation. Even the smallest spark could power the greatest machine.
• I will share knowledge that I have gained, for just as I have improved on a design, others will do the same for the legacy that I will leave behind.
• I will do what I can to preserve those constructs that have become aware of themselves. That spark of awareness was not gained easily, and those that subject them to abuse and neglect will earn my wrath.
I still feel like I'm missing something with this, though... Thoughts?
I still feel like I'm missing something with this, though... Thoughts?Paladin (LG) of Brigh (N)?
Indeed. The intent is come up with a code that would encompass the beliefs of one so fervently dedicated.
The intent is come up with a code that would encompass the beliefs of one so fervently dedicated.
May I suggest looking at it from the other end for a moment? Regardless of how Paladins might serve Brigh... why would Brigh sponsor a Paladin? They do nothing that is of interest to Her. And so I'm not sure a satisfying Paladin code could be formulated.
A paladin has to be LG. Brigh is N. So, a paladin would have to worship Brigh in a manner that's both lawful and good...but Brigh is neither. That means the paladin would would have to worship Brigh in an extremely heretical manner from the perspective of the Church of Brigh... and heresy is a chaotic act. Which means the paladin was not being lawful, and would lose powers.
That's how I rule at my table, at least.
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• I will endeavor to be precise. Whether in word or deed, time lost is potential lost, and even the most fleeting moment can make a world of difference.
• I will foster, promote, and respect the pursuit of knowledge. Those that seek to suppress and deny such pursuits are in opposition to me.
• I will seek out lost techniques and technologies with which to foster even greater innovation. Even the smallest spark could power the greatest machine.
• I will share knowledge that I have gained, for just as I have improved on a design, others will do the same for the legacy that I will leave behind.
• I will do what I can to preserve those constructs that have become aware of themselves. That spark of awareness was not gained easily, and those that subject them to abuse and neglect will earn my wrath.
Wonderful code, but I think it would better suit CG variant Paladins than normal LG ones (I realize that doesn't help with the "within one step" obstacle, of course).
• I will endeavor to be precise. Whether in word or deed, time lost is potential lost, and even the most fleeting moment can make a world of difference.
• I will foster, promote, and respect the pursuit of knowledge. Those that seek to suppress and deny such pursuits are in opposition to me.
• I will seek out lost techniques and technologies with which to foster even greater innovation. Even the smallest spark could power the greatest machine.
• I will share knowledge that I have gained, for just as I have improved on a design, others will do the same for the legacy that I will leave behind.
• I will do what I can to preserve those constructs that have become aware of themselves. That spark of awareness was not gained easily, and those that subject them to abuse and neglect will earn my wrath.
That strikes me as an excellent personal code for a follower of Brigh. But it's really not a paladin's code.
That said, if you're mostly ignoring alignment in your game and if "paladin" in your game means "warrior consecrated to a faith," then I guess it would work.
A paladin has to be LG. Brigh is N. So, a paladin would have to worship Brigh in a manner that's both lawful and good...but Brigh is neither. That means the paladin would would have to worship Brigh in an extremely heretical manner from the perspective of the Church of Brigh... and heresy is a chaotic act. Which means the paladin was not being lawful, and would lose powers.
That's how I rule at my table, at least.
So far as it goes, I doubt 'heresy' enters into in terms of alignment. Brigh is fairly clearly the sort of deity who is Neutral not out of any sense of balance, but because moral/ethical concerns are secondary to her research and engineering concerns. That certainly leaves open the question of whether she would bother granting Paladin powers to anyone--but if the paladin was dedicated to advancing and protecting the frontiers of science, I doubt anyone in the church, nor Brigh herself, would have much to say against their worship just because of their morality.
That said, if Brigh was sponsoring Paladins, she'd probably equally sponsor Technic League oriented Antipaladins.
So far as it goes, I doubt 'heresy' enters into in terms of alignment.
I would beg to differ. A faith has tenets and morality and a philosophy. Brigh's is decidedly NOT good and NOT lawful. So, to attempt to worship Brigh as if she were good and lawful (as would be required by a LG paladin), then that worship would not be in accordance with the faith's moral/ethical/philosophical tenets. In effect, the paladin would be worshiping her own personal imagination of what Brigh "should be" rather than what she is. Which is heresy. Doing so would be an act against the established order of Brigh's faith... and is consequently a chaotic act.
That said, if Brigh was sponsoring Paladins, she'd probably equally sponsor Technic League oriented Antipaladins.
I think that pretty much sums up why Brigh is not an appropriate god for paladins to worship...
On the flip side, Abadar and every other LN deity is well within his rights to sponsor paladins and (Tyrant) Antipaladins.That said, if Brigh was sponsoring Paladins, she'd probably equally sponsor Technic League oriented Antipaladins.I think that pretty much sums up why Brigh is not an appropriate god for paladins to worship...
And that's another reason why I consider the antipaladin class in general, and the tyrant archetype in particular, to have been poor design choices that weaken what makes the paldin special.
I'll go back to a previous statement: If you want to redesign the paladin class to remove the alignment restriction and replace the "law" and "good" powers with others that are more generic, then go right ahead. It's your game, and you should do what you and your players find most fun.
If you're going to do that, then any deity can have its own order of consecrated holy warriors. I would recommend renaming the class and calling them something other than "paladin" as the word has specific meanings both historically and for 40+ years of the game.
Frankly, I think that's what the inquisitiors and warpriests were designed for, but do what works best for your game.
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It's perfectly reasonable to have a code that is solidly restricted to Gray Paladins, in my opinion.
I may dislike that archetype, but I love Brigh more, and these codes are excellent. (I feel that if Brigh were to grant Paladin powers, however, Lay on Hands would become more of a repairing ability than a healing one.)
So she's more likely to have Wyrwood Paladin's with a special archetype? That sounds awesome, actually.
So far as it goes, I doubt 'heresy' enters into in terms of alignment.I would beg to differ. A faith has tenets and morality and a philosophy. Brigh's is decidedly NOT good and NOT lawful. So, to attempt to worship Brigh as if she were good and lawful (as would be required by a LG paladin), then that worship would not be in accordance with the faith's moral/ethical/philosophical tenets. In effect, the paladin would be worshiping her own personal imagination of what Brigh "should be" rather than what she is. Which is heresy. Doing so would be an act against the established order of Brigh's faith... and is consequently a chaotic act.
That said, if Brigh was sponsoring Paladins, she'd probably equally sponsor Technic League oriented Antipaladins.I think that pretty much sums up why Brigh is not an appropriate god for paladins to worship...
The established order of her church allows priests who are good and evil, and priests who are lawful and chaotic--because none of those conflict with her tenets regarding science and engineering.
It has been pointed out that Gray Paladins exist, and I was aware of the L requirement of the core class. The reason for starting this thread was to see if there were any tenets that may be missing that would be good to include in this code.
So, if I may wrangle this thread back into the development of the Code, this is what I've got so far:
• I will endeavor to be precise. Whether in word or deed, time lost is potential lost, and even the most fleeting moment can make a world of difference.
• I will foster, promote, and respect the pursuit of knowledge. Those that seek to suppress and deny such pursuits are in opposition to me.
• I will seek out lost techniques and technologies with which to foster even greater innovation. Even the smallest spark could power the greatest machine.
• I will share knowledge that I have gained, for just as I have improved on a design, others will do the same for the legacy that I will leave behind.
• I will do what I can to preserve those constructs that have become aware of themselves. That spark of awareness was not gained easily, and those that subject them to abuse and neglect will earn my wrath.
Is there anything missing that may be good to have as a part of this code?
I rather like what you have here so far. Brigh is one of my favorite deities, and I think this fits her philosophies well. I notice there isn't anything there about actually inventing though, as much as studying and sharing knowledge. Maybe a tenet that says "I strive to create (something, something, something...)"
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Leaving aside the question of whether a *paladin* of Brigh is rules-legal, I could see a holy warrior of Brigh's code including something about opposing those who restrict knowledge or stifle innovation, including guilds (or cultures or nations) that try to keep secret techniques of metalsmithing or formula like gunpowder or machinery like clockworks.
On the other hand, a LG follower of an artifice-god (such as Torag) might also take their tenets in directions more relevant to their alignment than Brigh's more 'information wants to be free' direction, and also oppose devices and machines that bring only suffering or misery into the world, or that are ultimately harmful, such as chemical weapons or more efficient killing machines or inventions/devices that have something to do with / encourage / enable slavery. A lawful artifice-god-follower might turn their nose up at devices that empower lawbreakers, such as thieving tools, while one more concerned with good might find torture devices like the iron maiden to be perversions of the genius of man.
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Set is correct that a good Paladin code should be informed by the intended alignment... however, I would say that a Paladin of Brigh may not care about law in a traditional sense, being more dedicated to the law of science and the indisputable law that causes this lever to turn that wheel which powers the piston that... You get my point. Not a law of man, but the Law of creation.
Perhaps something about always building upon your own creations and those of others, and never letting a project go unfinished?
Other than that, I think the current code is excellent!
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I rather like what you have here so far. Brigh is one of my favorite deities, and I think this fits her philosophies well. I notice there isn't anything there about actually inventing though, as much as studying and sharing knowledge. Maybe a tenet that says "I strive to create (something, something, something...)"
I was uncertain how to approach that one, as crafting may not be something that a player might take up, and was wondering whether or not it could ride under the "improve on a design" and "legacy I will leave behind", as more of an implied thing.
• I will strive to create something that pushes the limits of our understanding. For just as others have pushed our horizons further, I will add my strength to that effort so that we may become as unbounded as our thoughts.
Perhaps something about always building upon your own creations and those of others, and never letting a project go unfinished?
• I will strive to complete the works I begin. Should I be unable to do so, those that come after me will be able to do so with the knowledge I will leave behind.
How do those sound?
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I really like the code .
Have no problem with paladins of brigh.
Then again the only people less welcome at my table than paladin fanboy/rules lawyers are ninja/samurai fanboy/rules lawyers, so there is that.
I could legitimately see the mind set of a paladin of Pharasma.. Although a inquisitor probably would work just as well.
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But then you might have to allow CG, LG, LE and CE Clerics of Brigh, maybe Nethys and Pharasma as well.I really like the code .
Have no problem with paladins of brigh.
Then again the only people less welcome at my table than paladin fanboy/rules lawyers are ninja/samurai fanboy/rules lawyers, so there is that.
'Ere now! Wot's all this then?
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But then you might have to allow CG, LG, LE and CE Clerics of Brigh, maybe Nethys and Pharasma as well.
Eh, Paladins are already exceptions (being the only class limited to a single alignment), so allowing a single non-LG god to have Paladins (as the Forgotten Realms did with the CG goddess Sune) seems perfectly do-able. Specific trumps general, after all.
Although, were I to allow a Paladin of a non-lawful or good god in Golarion, it would absolutely be Pharasma. She's about as lawful as a non-Lawful god can be (so much so that someone breaking one of her 'laws' *created disease* back in the day, making her 'laws' more binding and relevant in a universal/cosmic sense than anything Erastil or Iomedae could even dream of), and while she doesn't seem terribly inclined towards good, she *does* seem strongly opposed to various evil stuff...
Alternately, you could just tweak Brigh to be a Lawful Neutral goddess of clockwork and order and artifice and time. Boom, Paladin-ready. (That would give her five domains, but 'Other gods' like Achaekek and Besmara already have five domains, so you don't have to be one of the big 20 to rate more domains than some uppity demon lord.)
Hey in my campaign setting the gods are dead(probably), paladin and clerics are still around, and the former go around attempting to save the world through the lens of their alignment while latter prepares the world for the return of their deity, unless they believe they already are that deity, of course.
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• I will strive to create something that pushes the limits of our understanding. For just as others have pushed our horizons further, I will add my strength to that effort so that we may become as unbounded as our thoughts.
• I will strive to complete the works I begin. Should I be unable to do so, those that come after me will be able to do so with the knowledge I will leave behind.
How do those sound?
I like'em! I like them a lot. Partially because I'm going to be doing a whole lotta science in a couple of months and I personally am going to keep these in mind.
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Collecting them all:
• I will endeavor to be precise. Whether in word or deed, time lost is potential lost, and even the most fleeting moment can make a world of difference.
• I will foster, promote, and respect the pursuit of knowledge. Those that seek to suppress and deny such pursuits are in opposition to me.
• I will seek out lost techniques and technologies with which to foster even greater innovation. Even the smallest spark could power the greatest machine.
• I will share knowledge that I have gained, for just as I have improved on a design, others will do the same for the legacy that I will leave behind.
• I will do what I can to preserve those constructs that have become aware of themselves. That spark of awareness was not gained easily, and those that subject them to abuse and neglect will earn my wrath.
• I will strive to create something that pushes the limits of our understanding. For just as others have pushed our horizons further, I will add my strength to that effort so that we may become as unbounded as our thoughts.
• I will strive to complete the works I begin. Should I be unable to do so, those that come after me will be able to do so with the knowledge I will leave behind.
Thanks for your input, all!