Which APs can be cut short the easiest?

[Steve Geddes]

I have a player who likes the paizo APs but tends to get bored and lose track of the over-arching plot around halfway through. Which APs do you think come to a decent, natural end at the end of books three or four?

I'm likely to run it in a different rules-system, so bringing the BBEG forward isn't a big drama if you think that would work (I'll be re-statting things anyhow, so adding a climactic battle with the BBEG at the end of book four wouldn't be a massive thing).

For other reasons, Skull and Shackles and Carrion Crown are on the shortlist at the moment, so I'm particularly interested in anyone's thoughts on a shortened version of those two. Any comment/opinion would be welcome though.

APs that are out of contention (because we've already run them): Rise of the Runelords, Curse of the Crimson Throne, Kingmaker, Serpent's Skull

APs that are out of contention (because they have themes we're not interested in): Jade Regent, Iron Gods, Reign of Winter

[zimmerwald1915]

I don't agree in the slightest, but I've heard it said that Hell's Rebels ends naturally at Book 4.

[Mark Seifter]

Council of Thieves, running parts 1, 2, 3, and then the end of 5 (but not the beginning of 5, which sets up 6), is an excellent arc if you do a little surgery on earlier parts. In fact, it's one of the known wrinkles with the AP that 4->beginning of 5->6 is a separate thread from the rest. I highly recommend it for a 4-Part AP.

[Kalindlara]

Carrion Crown can easily end at the climax of Book 3.

Carrion Crown:

They catch Auren Vrood, find the Carrion Crown elixir's components in his things along with his notes, and realize that he was the mastermind of this plot.

It's shockingly easy. ^_^

If you need further details about minor details that need correcting, my PMs are always open.

[Reverse]

Is the objection to the Jade Regent's theme the travel or the fantasy Asian elements of the plot?

I ask because books 1-3 are set around travelling to Tian Xia, rather than adventuring in it. If the travel is of interest, you could remove the overarching plot of the evil oni, simply have the characters travelling to bring the Lost Empress back to her throne, and have the entire campaign be the journey.

We loved it, enjoyed the travel elements, and thought Book 3 was the best of a good lot, so ending there is hardly an anti-climax.

[Steve Geddes]

Reverse wrote:

Is the objection to the Jade Regent's theme the travel or the fantasy Asian elements of the plot?

I ask because books 1-3 are set around travelling to Tian Xia, rather than adventuring in it. If the travel is of interest, you could remove the overarching plot of the evil oni, simply have the characters travelling to bring the Lost Empress back to her throne, and have the entire campaign be the journey.

We loved it, enjoyed the travel elements, and thought Book 3 was the best of a good lot, so ending there is hardly an anti-climax.

Good point. It is the Asian theme that wouldn't suit. Cheers.

[Steve Geddes]

Kalindlara wrote:

Carrion Crown can easily end at the climax of Book 3.

** spoiler omitted **

It's shockingly easy. ^_^

If you need further details about minor details that need correcting, my PMs are always open.

Thanks. Carrion Crown is already on the list for other reasons so that's a definite plus.

PS - Are you at paizocon on this year? I have to do better at meeting forumgoers this time around. :)

[Steve Geddes]

Mark Seifter wrote:

Council of Thieves, running parts 1, 2, 3, and then the end of 5 (but not the beginning of 5, which sets up 6), is an excellent arc if you do a little surgery on earlier parts. In fact, it's one of the known wrinkles with the AP that 4->beginning of 5->6 is a separate thread from the rest. I highly recommend it for a 4-Part AP.

Cool, thanks.

I hardly remember CoT. It's been years. The guy much prefers urban themes so that's definitely another place to look I hadn't thought of.

[Steve Geddes]

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

I don't agree in the slightest, but I've heard it said that Hell's Rebels ends naturally at Book 4.

Heh. That's one of my favourite APs. I held off on reading it properly so someone can run it for me... not sure I'm ready to give up on the dream (although Ironfang Invasion is creeping up on it as AP I want to play in!)

[Philo Pharynx]

Skull and Shackles can be abbreviated. A lot of the game is smaller/random encounters. You can remove a lot of these and simply advance them as they go. This way you can run the whole AP in a shorter time.

[J-Bone]

My experiences running and playing the APs is that generally they work with a premise that the first and second, third and fourth, and fifth and sixth books are generally tied together. So running them as two book stories can generally work out pretty well.

[Eliandra Giltessan]

Hell's Rebels can easily be ended after the 4th book.

[Kileanna]

Philo Pharynx wrote:

Skull and Shackles can be abbreviated. A lot of the game is smaller/random encounters. You can remove a lot of these and simply advance them as they go. This way you can run the whole AP in a shorter time.

It could also be ended in the 5th book if the plot with the spy is changed or removed so the last boss is Harrigan just because of the grudge he holds against the PCs. No Chelish invasion at all. Or maybe have the Chelish invasion be the end and joining the two fleet battles as just one.

The Island of Empty eyes could be abbreviated if the PCs just have to make a party but not to secure the island.

[GM Rednal]

Wrath of the Righteous can easily finish after the first or second book. Rise of the Runelords can finish after the first book.

[Tarik Blackhands]

I'll also toss a hat into the Hell's Rebels camp. If you're really pressed to trim it down, you can more or less remove all of book 3 aside from the Mascarade, and essentially end the adventure either at the end of book 4 (defeating Thrune) or after working out the loophole in the Kintargo Contract if your players want some more closure.

[captain yesterday]

Just pick somewhere to end, pack up all your stuff, say "I think we're done here" and walk out.

[Kileanna]

captain yesterday wrote:

Just pick somewhere to end, pack up all your stuff, say "I think we're done here" and walk out.

+1 bonus if you do that leaving everything in a cliffhanger xD

[Cole Deschain]

Hell's Rebels can end on Part 4 (as has been said and said and said).
Iron Gods forms a rough trilogy.
With some tinkering, Runelords can end with Fortress of the Stone Giants.

[Tacticslion]

Quote:

Which APs can be cut short the easiest?

All of them! :D

[captain yesterday]

Mummy's Mask can easily end after books two or four.

[J-Bone]

Giantslayer can end after book 2 which wraps up the Orc stuff or book 4 after you wrap up the Frost Giants who can be skinned as the masterminds.

[Tacticslion]

Joke finished*, it's true that CoT and CC could both be easily truncated, and, in some ways, the experience would benefit from it.

Though Mark recommended 1/2/3/(end of)5 - a very solid recommendation, by the way - you can actually easily crop out the beginning half of 2, and most of the side quests/latter half of part 1. The only issue you'll run into is leveling, but you can handle that in a number of ways. Heck, if your players are on board with it, just start them at third level as founding members of the Children of Westcorwn, and you can drop almost all of episode 1 of CoT altogether with no real loss, and maybe not any loss at all.

I'd like to look into CC more before commenting, but it's pretty easily chopped - Kalindlara's suggestion above is pretty solid, but I tend to think there are other ways, too, and there are several points at which you could alter the basic plot or adjust some encounters to make things happen. Anyway, Inmay come back to this, if I remember...

* As an aside: I just learned that, apparently, "[death] effect" or similar nomenclature is not explicitly defined anywhere. That... is weird.

EDIT: to clarify - there are a surprising number of "K's" about! :D
(I'm not commenting on Skull&Shackles as Ove not played it.)

[quibblemuch]

Another thing you can try is, rather than cutting a book or two from the end, make cuts throughout the six books, using only the bare minimum of story material from each book. I do this, particularly as the APs get closer to the finish, because the pace of the narrative needs to pick up. If, instead of giving out XP, you level the players at specific points, and you make sure they don't miss out on useful treasure, this approach can work.

I feel like, given the XP/treasure system, there wind up being a lot of encounters that are there mainly to give PCs the necessary levels & loot to take on the "real" story encounters. But story pacing doesn't necessarily benefit from that--and, if you're like me, and like a very story-driven game, it's worth it to cut those fights. So go through the AP, figure out which encounters directly relate to the story, and which (while maybe fun) don't.

EXAMPLES

Reign of Winter:

I cut large sections of Artrosa. There were many encounters there that did not advance the Baba Yaga storyline and weren't missed at all.

Carrion Crown:

After the party had a lot of trouble with Schloss Caromarc, I just had the nobleman escape on his own and hand them the needed information. I also eliminated everything between Renchurch and the final ascent up Gallowspire--it felt like a grind. I also got lucky and they didn't try to fight the vampires through the sewers, so I was able to avoid all of that.

Serpent's Skull:

I played in this, but I wish most of the fifth book had been skipped. Once we knew Ydersius might be returned to full godhood, spending six months (IRL) wandering around the Darklands doing people favors felt completely like a waste of time. Also, the journey to Savith-Yhi (in the second book) had a lot of encounters that really didn't do much to advance the plot, and I don't think I would have missed them.

Hell's Rebels:

Once the Ruby Masquerade became the Ruby Massacre, I handwaved away all of the basement encounters (the PCs hadn't gone down there during the party). They would be anticlimactic, after defeating "Barzillai" and not really serve much purpose. I also cut side missions here and there, like the doghousing incident in the first book. The PCs already hated Barzillai and the dottari, there really wasn't any need for that fight.

EDIT - Sometimes I'll also eliminate stuff on the fly. Like if they defeat whatever Story Big Bad they were supposed to in a given location, I won't make them fight every last Cleaning Closet Ooze and Dust Bunny Golem in the rooms they haven't been in yet.

[Mark Seifter]

Tacticslion wrote:

Joke finished*, it's true that CoT and CC could both be easily truncated, and, in some ways, the experience would benefit from it.

Though Mark recommended 1/2/3/(end of)5 - a very solid recommendation, by the way - you can actually easily crop out the beginning half of 2, and most of the side quests/latter half of part 1. The only issue you'll run into is leveling, but you can handle that in a number of ways. Heck, if your players are on board with it, just start them at third level as founding members of the Children of Westcorwn, and you can drop almost all of episode 1 of CoT altogether with no real loss, and maybe not any loss at all.

This is indeed a solid recommendation for making it even shorter (though many groups enjoy the play, so maybe instead Tiny bits of 1 to introduce/New Intro->2->3->end of 5 would work too?). I figured I'd keep it at 3.5 books, but I was considering recommending cutting out some of 1 with its Council ties as well.

Incidentally, all of these tweaks on this suggestion are essentially cutting out the titular Council of Thieves from the AP (it's still a solid focused AP without them though), so you might want to call it Breaking Dawn or Dawn of Westcrown or something like that.

[Haladir]

Rise of the Runelords has five logical end-points...

End campaign at Level 5:

Run Burnt Offerings straight. Nualia was a Big Bad, and defeating her saves Sandpoint.

End campaign at Level 8:

Run through The Skinsaw Murders. Xanesha was the Big Bad, who was using the Sandpoint Runewell to power some nefarious ceremony that would grant her the mantle of the Runelord of Greed.

End campaign at Level 11:

Run through Hook Mountain Massacre. Barl Breakbones was the Big Bad, seeking to tap into ancient Thassilonian powers to unify the ogres and hill giants of the Hook Mountain Region under his control.

End campaign at Level 14:

Run through Fortress of the Stone Giants. Mokmourian was the Big Bad, seeking to tap into ancient Thassilonian power to unify the giants of Varisia under his own banner, to take back the land from the puny humans.

End campaign at Level 18:

Run all six volumes.

[Steve Geddes]

Thanks for all the comments. I reckon we'll go with Carrion Crown or Council of Thieves and see how that works out for him.
Cheers.

[Yakman]

You can easily end Giantslayer after book 2.

Just cut out the bits about Volstus and have Grenseldek be the Big Bad.

Same thing with Iron Gods. You don't need Unity, just Hellion.

[Voltron4547]

Kalindlara wrote:

Carrion Crown can easily end at the climax of Book 3.

Carrion Crown:

They catch Auren Vrood, find the Carrion Crown elixir's components in his things along with his notes, and realize that he was the mastermind of this plot.

I would also vote Carrion Crown. We started running Carrion Crown a few years back, and after several sessions we learned that we would soon be losing one of our regular players. Being a group of four (one DM and three players), losing a player meant that we would either need to drastically alter the challenge rating of the rest of the campaign, or start something new that was more appropriate difficulty for a two player party. We were just starting the third book, so I followed a very similar path to what Kalindlara outlined above and ended the campaign after book 3. We were able to finish the abbreviated campaign in the little time that we had left, and the party seemed to enjoy the ending.

Cheers and good luck.

[J-Bone]

Book 5 of Kingmaker is a nice ending spot. Book 6 is fun, but a big departure from what was happening up to that point.

[MannyGoblin]

Steve Geddes wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

Council of Thieves, running parts 1, 2, 3, and then the end of 5 (but not the beginning of 5, which sets up 6), is an excellent arc if you do a little surgery on earlier parts. In fact, it's one of the known wrinkles with the AP that 4->beginning of 5->6 is a separate thread from the rest. I highly recommend it for a 4-Part AP.

Cool, thanks.

I hardly remember CoT. It's been years. The guy much prefers urban themes so that's definitely another place to look I hadn't thought of.

Or heck, 1-2-3. Knock Ilnerik down some levels and have him in Delvhaven looking for the Morrowfall. The Shadowcurse arc was unfortunately given the short end in the AP.

[Lord Fyre]

MannyGoblin wrote:

Steve Geddes wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

Council of Thieves, running parts 1, 2, 3, and then the end of 5 (but not the beginning of 5, which sets up 6), is an excellent arc if you do a little surgery on earlier parts. In fact, it's one of the known wrinkles with the AP that 4->beginning of 5->6 is a separate thread from the rest. I highly recommend it for a 4-Part AP.

Cool, thanks.

I hardly remember CoT. It's been years. The guy much prefers urban themes so that's definitely another place to look I hadn't thought of.

Or heck, 1-2-3. Knock Ilnerik down some levels and have him in Delvhaven looking for the Morrowfall. The Shadowcurse arc was unfortunately given the short end in the AP.

The way it worked out, both plotlines ended up on the short end of this AP. :(

[Dale McCoy Jr]

J-Bone wrote:

Book 5 of Kingmaker is a nice ending spot. Book 6 is fun, but a big departure from what was happening up to that point.

I ended Kingmaker after Book 4 and it was perfectly fine. Ending that AP after any book is good since you end off with "your country is protected."

[amethal]

You can end Reign of Winter pretty much whenever you want.

You can also leave out large chunks if that suits you better.