As title suggests I've been interested in a bard for a while but every time I look into the class again it's really weird and kinda hard for me to understand on how I should I even build this I'm usually a more martial character kind of player but would be willing to try anything thanks for the help
How do you "bard"? Elementary! You're still a 3/4 class, so your feats will largely be the same as those you are familiar with. However, now you have access to bardsong and limited spellcasting. Your spell selections should help you get into favorable positions, since after round one you probably won't want to cast. Bardsong will fill the gap between 3/4 and full BAB, with the added benefit of giving the same bonus to your allies. Be sure to invest in Perform skills, since they pull double duty for bards. Versatile Performance will make you the star player in skill challenges. So, pick a combat style (I prefer archery) and tailor your feats to that style, grabbing Lingering Performance if you can find the room.
Bards are one of the most versatile classes in the system -- a Bard is one part rogue (all the skills), one part spellcaster (6th level spells), one part martial (3/4ths BAB and an attack boost), plus a weird AoE buff series. There are archetypes for all of these as well.
When building a bard, you generally want to try and specialize a bit -- at the very least, decide whether you want to lean more towards martial combat or more towards spellcasting.
If you want to make a martial bard, say, your basic strategy is that you pick up Arcane Strike and use Inspire Courage, and you become a fairly decent damage dealer/frontliner -- not as potent as the barbarian or fighter, but you buff others and have some nice utility spells. Arcane Duelist is usually the go-to Bard Combat archetype.
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How do you "bard"? Elementary! You're still a 3/4 class, so your feats will largely be the same as those you are familiar with. However, now you have access to bardsong and limited spellcasting. Your spell selections should help you get into favorable positions, since after round one you probably won't want to cast. Bardsong will fill the gap between 3/4 and full BAB, with the added benefit of giving the same bonus to your allies. Be sure to invest in Perform skills, since they pull double duty for bards. Versatile Performance will make you the star player in skill challenges. So, pick a combat style (I prefer archery) and tailor your feats to that style, grabbing Lingering Performance if you can find the room.
I agree with this, but I think that picking up lingering performance is very important and should be done at 5th level at the latest. There's nothing worse than running out of performance rounds, because then you're just a rogue without sneak attack. Oratory is a fantastic secondary performance skill to pick up, as it requires no hands. The only reason it's secondary is that you can buy masterwork instruments to give you a bonus that also applies to versatile performance.
You can play any core race (or any race without a -4 penalty to charisma) well as a bard. I actually am running a dwarven bard right now, and even with a 14 cha, you can still pull off some cool spells and have a high perform skill.
So assuming you're doing the standard inspire courage for everyone bard you do this.
decide if you want to do melee or ranged combat.
melee
have stats something like 16+2/14/14/8/10/12 grab a nice THW, maybe a longspear, and go to town. R1 inspire and move into position. R2 attack. At lv4 you get heroism to give a nice attack boost. At lv7 your R1 can be haste/good hope and inspire courage and then attack r2+. Arcane strike can be useful since you have feats to spare.
ranged
have stats like 14/16+2/12/8/10/14 and grab a bow. Get the archery feats you can. R1 inspire and R2 attack. At lv4 you get heroism to give a nice attack boost. At lv7 your R1 can be haste/good hope and inspire courage and then attack r2+. while arcane strike would be useful, it's hard to fit it in the build.
I usually go with 16(14+2)/14/14/10/10/14 for stats for most gishy classes that melee, but the idea is generally the same.
Generally speaking, you can melee decently as a bard, although your first turn is likely spend putting up a haste spell (because that is a bonus to everyone- it is one of the few buffs actually worth the wasted time for a melee caster).
Be sure to grab arcane strike to patch up your damage compared to a full BAB (less power attack).
Since you are in light armor and have d8, it isn't a bad suggestion to go with a reach build using a long spear to be a bit more survivable.
Bards also get some pretty awesome Bard exclusive spells for instance
-Saving Finale
-Allegro
Saving Finale is super solid for keeping your allies alive and active in combat, while Allegro means you can function as a powerful frontliner from 4th level onwards. Not only are you buffing all of your allies with Inspire Courage but you have access to self-haste before anyone else.
How do you "bard"? Elementary! You're still a 3/4 class, so your feats will largely be the same as those you are familiar with. However, now you have access to bardsong and limited spellcasting. Your spell selections should help you get into favorable positions, since after round one you probably won't want to cast. Bardsong will fill the gap between 3/4 and full BAB, with the added benefit of giving the same bonus to your allies. Be sure to invest in Perform skills, since they pull double duty for bards. Versatile Performance will make you the star player in skill challenges. So, pick a combat style (I prefer archery) and tailor your feats to that style, grabbing Lingering Performance if you can find the room.I agree with this, but I think that picking up lingering performance is very important and should be done at 5th level at the latest. There's nothing worse than running out of performance rounds, because then you're just a rogue without sneak attack. Oratory is a fantastic secondary performance skill to pick up, as it requires no hands. The only reason it's secondary is that you can buy masterwork instruments to give you a bonus that also applies to versatile performance.
You can play any core race (or any race without a -4 penalty to charisma) well as a bard. I actually am running a dwarven bard right now, and even with a 14 cha, you can still pull off some cool spells and have a high perform skill.
I actually prefer to do Oratory first, since getting a massive boost to Diplomacy and Sense Motive starting at level 2 is a really nice bonus. You can get a masterwork tool for literally anything, so it's available for Oratory, too.
If you want to get really silly, you can always do the Archaeologist + Fate's Favored build, too. It just doesn't play as well with others.
So thanks for all the replies guys for 1 but also would probably lean more towards melee and self buff what your ideas on that and how a build for that would work with this class
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Darc --
Are you in the Twin Cities? Did I just GM for you at Tower Games? I only ask because I had one of my players ask me these very same questions this evening before my game broke up.
Melee and self-buff? Here are my suggestions:
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If not doing bard, have you considered Bloodrager, Inquisitor, Alchemist or Warpriest? All of those can be very interesting self-buffing martials depending on how you build them.
Hmm
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the dawnflower dervish/dervish of the dawn(if you use d20srd) is pretty much a full martial bard.
it gives up buffing allies in return for double bonuses from inspire courage. this starts as 'on par with rage' and ends at 'over coming the concept of 3/4 bab entirely' (15 + 8=23, about equal to 20+4 of things like barbarian)
the archetype comes with free dervish dance... but that is the worst build for it. you do not want to play catch up while doing one weapon one handed. two handing is basic, but the real money is in twf and archery. between arcane strike and double inspire courage, you get a lot of bonus damage on each hit. so many hit build are great.
Darc --
Are you in the Twin Cities? Did I just GM for you at Tower Games? I only ask because I had one of my players ask me these very same questions this evening before my game broke up.
Melee and self-buff? Here are my suggestions:
Archaeologist Bard. You're Indiana Jones with an ability to do traps! Even more importantly, you want two traits: Fate's Favored to get more out of your luck bonuses and Criminal to get Disable Device as a chass skill. You get a self-only performance that is luck based. It keeps bardic knowledge. Dervish Dancer Bard. You can do this as either a dex build with the Dervish Dancer feat, or you can go strength, since your dancing versatile performance gives you acrobatics and fly. It does not keep bardic knowledge, but it still has awesome skills. ___
If not doing bard, have you considered Bloodrager, Inquisitor, Alchemist or Warpriest? All of those can be very interesting self-buffing martials depending on how you build them.
Hmm
I was not part of that game/group
the dawnflower dervish/dervish of the dawn(if you use d20srd) is pretty much a full martial bard.
it gives up buffing allies in return for double bonuses from inspire courage. this starts as 'on par with rage' and ends at 'over coming the concept of 3/4 bab entirely' (15 + 8=23, about equal to 20+4 of things like barbarian)
the archetype comes with free dervish dance... but that is the worst build for it. you do not want to play catch up while doing one weapon one handed. two handing is basic, but the real money is in twf and archery. between arcane strike and double inspire courage, you get a lot of bonus damage on each hit. so many hit build are great.
This plus the idea of skald are definitely something to consider I'll take a peak at these soon
If that's the case then what would be some of the best ways to go more martial bard (self buffing or otherwise)
the dawnflower dervish/dervish of the dawn(if you use d20srd) is pretty much a full martial bard.
it gives up buffing allies in return for double bonuses from inspire courage. this starts as 'on par with rage' and ends at 'over coming the concept of 3/4 bab entirely' (15 + 8=23, about equal to 20+4 of things like barbarian)
the archetype comes with free dervish dance... but that is the worst build for it. you do not want to play catch up while doing one weapon one handed. two handing is basic, but the real money is in twf and archery. between arcane strike and double inspire courage, you get a lot of bonus damage on each hit. so many hit build are great.
I can't seem to find the dawnflower one
Or Dervish of Dawn on d20pfsrd.
Gotcha is there a way to get flame blade as a spell as a bard at all? (Like favored class things etc.)
It's not an arcane spell anywhere that I know of which makes it hard. I mean, you can UMD a wand, and there's weapons with it or a similar effect built in, but PF's bards are all arcane so there's no easy way to add it to their spell list proper.
As Lemeres points out if maximum effect is what you're after you might be better going with a bow or something anyway.
I find it odd that for all of the users of scimitars I don't picture a Druid nore a shaman using this often
It is a touch attack, which can make it pretty strong. I think there was a topic about maximizing its effectiveness somewhere but I've lost track of it.
I believe the topic involved sneak attack or some such. I am fond of the Sorrowsoul archetype for basically giving you double progression in exchange for focusing the bardic performance purely on yourself. Of course, I also like the Thundercaller for bringing down the Lightning.
Gotcha is there a way to get flame blade as a spell as a bard at all? (Like favored class things etc.)
Asking your GM very nicely.
I'm currently running a Dawnflower dervish bard and my GM let me take that spell, since it was thematic and there was a feat I wanted to take that required it. (Flame Blade Dervish)
Doesn't really help you if you're in PFS, but if it's a home game, it might be worth asking. Depends on your GM, though.
Otherwise, the only way is picking up a wand/scrolls, I think. Don't know if there's a way to actually add it to the list.
I wouldn't agree that the Skald doesn't mix with barbarians and bloodragers. The raging song gives them free rounds of rage since the bloodragers/barbarians can always use their own rage class stat bonuses when accepting your inspired rage song. If you have different rage powers it also allows them to get access to a completely different line of rage powers if required. There is also a 3rd level Skald spell to change the rage powers on the song, which allows you to pick up situational things rage powers like Ghost Rager. An Urban Skald can pump...
The issue is that they are unable to use their rage powers or bloodline powers with your raging song.
And abyssal bloodrager can't go big or get his claws.An arcane can't get his displacement and free haste.
A barbarian will be trading his 3+ rage powers at lv6 for the 2 you grant.
So sure, they can use their better bonuses with your song, but they still lose a lot, thus they'll probably be using their own rage anyways to get those powers.
And because of the FAQ if they do their own rage they lose out on anything you'd give them.
a note- you can use mithral breastplates since they count as light for everything other than proficiency. and you can fake proficiency too. the armor expert trait reduces the mithral breastplates's ACP to 0, which means you have no effective penalty for not being proficient in it.
other archetypes:
sorrow soul. it has the 'double inspire courage' thing too, but it explicitly lets you choose between simple party buff and your double buff. but it costs twice þe performsnce rounds. it is mostl notable for that versatility, and some great defense options(inspire heroic gives some serious miss chance and fast healing, and there is a separate ability that lets you spend three performance rounds as an immediate action to get +2 to saves, spell reistance, and eventually DR). overall, it is designed to let you play as a normal bard, but then switch into a super sturdy melee threat when needed. just be prepared to take a lot of 'extra perform
ance' feats to help cover the extra burn.
arcane duelist. a prototypical melee bard. it gives a ton of free feats, including arcane strike and a bunch of anti mage fighter feats. it eventually allows you to switch over to heavy armor.
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It is a touch attack, which can make it pretty strong.
In my experience. the Dawnflower Dervish has such a high attack bonus that you are sometimes hitting on a 2 anyway. I even had occasions when I was fighting defensively and using Compbat Expertise, and STILL hitting on a 2 (Battle Dance, Dance of a Hundred Cuts, Haste).
a note- you can use mithral breastplates since they count as light for everything other than proficiency. and you can fake proficiency too. the armor expert trait reduces the mithral breastplates's ACP to 0, which means you have no effective penalty for not being proficient in it.
other archetypes:
sorrow soul. it has the 'double inspire courage' thing too, but it explicitly lets you choose between simple party buff and your double buff. but it costs twice þe performsnce rounds. it is mostl notable for that versatility, and some great defense options(inspire heroic gives some serious miss chance and fast healing, and there is a separate ability that lets you spend three performance rounds as an immediate action to get +2 to saves, spell reistance, and eventually DR). overall, it is designed to let you play as a normal bard, but then switch into a super sturdy melee threat when needed. just be prepared to take a lot of 'extra perform
ance' feats to help cover the extra burn.arcane duelist. a prototypical melee bard. it gives a ton of free feats, including arcane strike and a bunch of anti mage fighter feats. it eventually allows you to switch over to heavy armor.
Hmmm both the arcane duelist and dervish of the dawnflower both look pretty awesome
Any feat recommendations?
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Any feat recommendations?
The Dawnflower Dervish already starts with Dervish Dance so there's no must-take feat at lvl 1. I have gone with:
1. Toughness
3. Arcane Strike
5. Dodge
7. Improved Initiative (you get Haste at this level)
9. Great Fortitude
My build is a traditional scimitar user. I'm not aiming for the highest optimization, but I've been very happy with how it turned out.
For race, I like Halfling: being small is an advantage for a Dawnflower Dervish, and the stat bumps are in the right places.
Any feat recommendations?The Dawnflower Dervish already starts with Dervish Dance so there's no must-take feat at lvl 1. I have gone with:
1. Toughness
3. Arcane Strike
5. Dodge
7. Improved Initiative (you get Haste at this level)
9. Great FortitudeMy build is a traditional scimitar user. I'm not aiming for the highest optimization, but I've been very happy with how it turned out.
For race, I like Halfling: being small is an advantage for a Dawnflower Dervish, and the stat bumps are in the right places.
Kinda odd choices in feats do you have items that make the character super good is it just pretty cool proof to build?
In the Rune Lords AP, I am playing an Arcane Duelist.
Half-elf with Ancestral Arms so I could have a Katana
FCB is +1 to Performance/level
I took Reactionary and Focused Mind for Traits. I probably should have taken a Fortitude Trait instead.
Feats:
1Toughness
3Extra Performance
5Master Performer (GM okayed)
7Lingering Performance
9Weapon Focus Katana
11Grand Master Performer
13(planned)Discordant Voice
With the Master Performer and Grand Master Performer, my Inspire Courage at 11th level is +5/+5 and the other players love it.
My Favorite spells at 2nd level are Mirror Image and Bladed Dash
At 4th level, my favorites are Dance of 100 cuts and Echolocation
I think at this point I'm leaning much closer to Dervish of dawn and was thinking about trying to talk to my gm about adding Flame Blade to my spell list as well but been looking around and I've kinda seen how to go for big hits and what not still haven't found any sound plan for feats though....maybe Eldrich heritage?
No one has actually answer the OP question yet. One "bards" by filling in roles that are needed at the time. The bard starts play by using inspire courage to aid everyone. Then they shift to whatever ranged or melee attack they prefer. If needed, they use wands or scrolls to cast a few more needed spells such as blaster spells or crowd control.
If the cleric is too busy or drops during combat, the bard takes over healing the party to keep everyone on their feet. The bard is one of the most versatile classes in the game. Don't worry about dealing the most damage or doing the most healing. The bard does what needs to be done at any given moment.
I think at this point I'm leaning much closer to Dervish of dawn and was thinking about trying to talk to my gm about adding Flame Blade to my spell list as well but been looking around and I've kinda seen how to go for big hits and what not still haven't found any sound plan for feats though....maybe Eldrich heritage?
Here are the feats of my dervish with that archetype, as an example:
Combat ReflexesDervish Dance - automatically given
Extra Performance
Weapon Focus (scimitar)
Worldwound Walker - specifically taken because we're playing WoTR, most likely wouldn't apply for you
Flame Blade Dervish - note that you need flame blade for this, so that depends on whether your GM will let you take it
Weapon of the Chosen - probably going to retrain this one, actually, since she has a magic weapon now
Dimensional Agility
Dimensional Assault
Dimensional Dervish
(I highly recommend those last three. Been having a lot of fun with them.)
I think at this point I'm leaning much closer to Dervish of dawn and was thinking about trying to talk to my gm about adding Flame Blade to my spell list as well but been looking around and I've kinda seen how to go for big hits and what not still haven't found any sound plan for feats though....maybe Eldrich heritage?Here are the feats of my dervish with that archetype, as an example:
Combat Reflexes
Dervish Dance - automatically given
Extra Performance
Weapon Focus (scimitar)
Worldwound Walker - specifically taken because we're playing WoTR, most likely wouldn't apply for you
Flame Blade Dervish - note that you need flame blade for this, so that depends on whether your GM will let you take it
Weapon of the Chosen - probably going to retrain this one, actually, since she has a magic weapon now
Dimensional Agility
Dimensional Assault
Dimensional Dervish(I highly recommend those last three. Been having a lot of fun with them.)
How do those feats even work with demention door? It's kinda weird but yah the other ones that were good either depend on campaign or gm niceness
How does everyone feel about the Eldrich heritage feats as an addition to a more fighting based build weather it be ranged or melee?
Do you want the Bloodline to get a Familiar or something else?
I was thinking about flight or something a bit more impactful than a familiar
Unless improved familiars are better than I believed them to be
How do those feats even work with demention door? It's kinda weird but yah the other ones that were good either depend on campaign or gm nicenessI think at this point I'm leaning much closer to Dervish of dawn and was thinking about trying to talk to my gm about adding Flame Blade to my spell list as well but been looking around and I've kinda seen how to go for big hits and what not still haven't found any sound plan for feats though....maybe Eldrich heritage?Here are the feats of my dervish with that archetype, as an example:
Combat Reflexes
Dervish Dance - automatically given
Extra Performance
Weapon Focus (scimitar)
Worldwound Walker - specifically taken because we're playing WoTR, most likely wouldn't apply for you
Flame Blade Dervish - note that you need flame blade for this, so that depends on whether your GM will let you take it
Weapon of the Chosen - probably going to retrain this one, actually, since she has a magic weapon now
Dimensional Agility
Dimensional Assault
Dimensional Dervish(I highly recommend those last three. Been having a lot of fun with them.)
Dimensional Agility means you can do any actions remaining on your turn after casting dimension door (and gives you a bonus to concentration for teleportation spells).
Dimensional Assault gives you the ability to teleport up to double your speed and make a charge attack as a full-round action. Really handy for avoiding attacks of opportunity, and for getting closer if your movement wouldn't otherwise be enough.
Dimensional Dervish is where it gets really nice. As a full-round action, you can activate dimension door as a swift, teleport up to twice your speed, and make all the attacks you have (teleporting at least 5 feet between each attack and after the last). It's particularly good for getting a full attack in on an opponent and then denying it one against you.
Dimensional Savant is the next one in the chain (which I'll be taking next). That one says that when you're using Dimensional Dervish, you provide flanking from all the squares you attack from and with allies (so basically you can flank with yourself).
So it takes a little while to ramp up, but once it does, it's pretty effective.
So basically these feats (especially 1 of them) alter demention door as a spell?
Would that work with the dervish of dawns ability to spend a move to make a spell quickened? I.e. Still allow me to sudo move by teleporting
They don't exactly alter it per se (you can still cast it normally), but you can use it as part of doing the additional stuff.
The spending a move to make a spell quickened ability only works for cure spells, so it wouldn't work with dim door.