I need some advice to deal with some events surrounding a recurrent NPC from a setting I'm playing/GMing with my group.
First, I'm giving you the backstory for this PC.
The story takes place in a heavily modified Dragonlance setting, and this character is a Solamnic Knight. If you are not familiar with them you can think of something inbetween paladins and LG cavaliers.
He is of noble bearing and has always been the paradigm of Good alignment. He's too much passionate for his own good and always puts good above law if it comes the case.
He used to value his allegiance to knighthood above everything but he was always seen as kinda rebellious because he fought hard to make the knighthood break with some outdated traditions and adapt to modern times. As he saw many leaders as corrupt he tried to change a lot of things from inside, with almost no success and earning many enemies in the high spheres.
But they couldn't get rid of him as he was a war hero who had won many battles and conquered many occupied territories for the Knighthood. He was also the typical handsome and nice man that everybody loved.
For many years, he had a romantic affair with a Silvanesti Elf. He was hopelessly in love with her and they had a secret relationship. He even thought of leaving the Knights to be with her, but he wouldn't be welcome among elves so it wasn't possible.
Even though the relationship was secret, his feelings towards her were not, and their impossible love story was told by bards everywhere.
To avoid that he got too insistent on changing the knighthood he was assigned to a far Keep in a dangerous conquered land, hoping to keep him busy. There he became a hero again, helping to defeat the evil that had conquered the land, and with the death of many key figures from the keep he ended earning the command of the whole Keep.
Now is when the bad things start to happen.
Watching the years pass and seeing that they are stuck on an impossible relationship the elf decides to let him go and breaks the relationship. He was completely torn when that happened, so he focused on his duty and his will to make some changes in the knighthood as a way of dealing with loss.
He wasn't able to change a single thing, only to bother his leaders.
Then a new enemy appeared and he tried to mobilize his fellow knights to deal with it, but they didn't see the danger and refused to help. He kept telling them that he needed more troops to defend his keep but they didn't listen.
At this time two serious issues happened.
First, he was throwing a noble party to celebrate another's knight successes. That knight was a candidate to an arranged marriage with him and everybody knew. How did a bunch of pirates end crashing on the party and starting their own pirate party is a very very long story. He tried to get them kicked out, but he couldn't as he was afraid the pirates could harm the non combatants. Then one of the pirates casted Charm Monster on him and seduced him. He ended making out with her in public... with his possible future wife there (and all the party was for her too).
With this people being so conservative you can imagine that this was a real scandal. As some of the other people's behavior wasn't too civil either, everything was covered, but too many people knew what happened. The Knight was completely ashamed and torn for his own behaviour.
Second, the keep was finally attacked, and they had very few troops. There were almost no survivors (about 20 people of 150). The worse part is that he was useless as a commander. He barely commanded his troops and when he did he gave the wrong orders. A knight without a rank and a woman who wasn't even a knight had to take the leadership to finally repel the attack. He died during the attack but he was resurrected.
Now he's completely broken. He failed as much as he feels the knights have failed him.
But the important issue here is that, with a social scandal and a military failure, his superiors have now good reasons to destroy him (in a non literal way). He's going to be through some militar trial to judge his behavior and they are going to be hard on him. He has pissed too many people.
I want to get some creative ideas on how to punish him, I don't want to be too soft. He's an NPC so I don't care to be harsh if it's interesting.
Even though the knights might have part of the guilt for the defeat, they will never admit it, so they'll try harder to put all the blame on him.
Some possible punishments for a knight:
Break his sword in front of him. (Or other significant item(s).)
Brand him with some kind of permanent mark so that everyone knows he is a knight without honor.
Strip him of all titles.
Send him on a suicide mission.
Thanks for the feedback!
I don't think they'll break his sword as it is very valuable and a familiar heritage. They take this things seriously (and it would probably piss his sister a lot. Not that they would care, as she refused to join the knights and became a wizard).
He's considering by himself to pass his nobility titles if possible to his older sister's husband.
He'd probably be stripped of his rank too, and the leadership of his keep given to his second in command, who is a respected man who is also a veteran of many battles and a hero (but also an awful leader, he's more a soldier than a commander).
The suicide mission is a posibility. When they sent him to his actual keep it was already because a lot of knights were dying there and they hoped they would get rid of him.
The last option seems interesting as we could device something plot related to him to keep things moving in the setting.
What's the situation for the game as a whole? Typical moderately high-level party?
Would a scene where he's sentenced to death and the others have to rescue him ruin everything?
Some other old-fashioned types of justice:
Trial by Combat
Trial by Ordeal
Exile
I'm really grateful, Matthew. You are being so helpful.
This character is more relevant to the full setting than to a single group of PCs. He's a recurring NPC who has appeared in many campaigns.
He first appeared in a campaign where he became the lover of one of the PCs (an elven bard I mentioned before). The campaign ended, she was retired as a NPC.
He got assigned to the Keep I mentioned before, where he played a minor role in another campaign as a host for the PC group and played a minor role in defeating the BBEG of the campaign. One of the PCs of the campaign became his second in command when he was retired as a NPC (he could have become the leader if he didn't hate so much taking a leadership role).
Then he played again the role of a host in our recent RoW campaign, where he was a possible candidate to marry one of the characters (it was all ruined by the pirate incident) and later, when our PCs were resting in the keep after recovering Baba Yaga's doll, we were attacked and it was the PCs who had to take a leadership role as he was overwhelmed.
Even though he is a nice guy, the fact that the only active PCs he has around see him as a total idiot and incompetent commander I don't think they will move a finger to avoid him being executed. Actually some of the PCs want to see him punished. And I don't want former PCs from other stories to take such relevant decissions that should belong to the PCs.
I doubt he would be sentenced to death, though, as it would probably be an unpopular decission as there are many people who still see him as a hero.
Trial of combat would be really interesting if we got our Fighter to duel him! She's willing to have a good excuse to do so, as he humiliated her, and she's one of the PCs. She's also a knight and it would be interesting to see how far is she willing to go, as she's undoubtfully a Good character (and mostly Lawful too).
I am excited about this because when this character first appeared he was your typical perfect knight, and showing his decadence and fall is interesting for all the players who have known him for years.
P.S. I know many of the facts don't fit RoW story, but we changed a lot of stuff to make it fit our setting.
Sounds like he'd make a good future villain if his best efforts to do the right thing continue to be punished...
He was pretty screwed up on our last story, the poor man.
He is hoping he had refused to be resurrected. At this time he is a broken man who feels he has no more to live for.
So we are wondering what we will do with him. He's been relevant in many stories, even though he's never been a protagonist, so he deserves that we think an interesting outcome for him.
After talking to my co-GM we both think that the idea of turning him to a villain is interesting and we are toying with that idea to figure out what could push him so far.
I don't see how he is decadent or fallen. I can't imagine that in a world where magical mind control is a thing people don't make allowances for that. The attack is a more serious matter, but you don't really explain why someone who had apparently been a very competent and heroic commander turned into an imbecile. I suspect from a meta-game perspective he had to be stupid so the PCs could be heroes, but you don't seem to have an in game perspective for that.
Honestly, I can see that this is a long time favorite NPC of yours, but you are pretty much writing him out of the story now, and that is fine. I'd probably go ahead and just do that. If I understand correctly, the game action is taking place at a distant outpost, far from the center of things. If there were any trial I would expect it to happen in the center. He would be recalled and it is quite possible that your PCs would never know particularly what happened, whether he was executed for treason or allowed to quietly retire or something else. All your PCs know, or need to know, is that he isn't around anymore.
The nice thing about this solution is that it gives you options in the future. He could never show up again. He could show up revitalized, and heroic again, older but perhaps wiser or he could become a villian twisted and embittered by his fate. Right now, you seem pretty done with him, but you might get inspired again in the future and leaving your options open isn't a bad way to go.
Not that I'm done with the poor man, but that I want to do something interesting to the story.
He's not an idiot from my POV (even though some of his actions had some of the PCs thinking so), just a man who has lost his faith and much of his self steem. He has tried to change things and he has got nothing. He has lost his love and is reluctant to accept an arranged marriage but he feels forced to do so.
He never stopped being a good man, but he has lost most of his will to fight.
When the attack happened, he didn't have to be incompetent to make the PCs be the heroes, there were a lot of ways they could be without him taking the wrong decissions. But it ended going like that (things sometimes just go wild) and now there are too many people who wanted to see him fail so they could rip him off.
It's not that he has done things so wrong, that's the point. It's just that he has pissed the wrong people and they want to make him fall.
I like portraying how politics can make a good man fall in disgrace while the ones in the power who have caused it deny all their implications (as they could have sent him the troops he asked for before it happened).
Dot.
I like portraying how politics can make a good man fall in disgrace while the ones in the power who have caused it deny all their implications
I get this. There are several books I have read with different versions of this theme that were excellent. The thing is though, you aren't telling his story, you are running a world so the PCs can make their story.
Beyonda that, I actually think the most likely thing those in power would do would be similar to our modern 'asked to tender his resignation' scenario. Basically retire him back to his country estate. Get him out of the way, without a minimum of further publicity and scandal. Later (if it fit with your game plot) the situation could change. The powers that be might want him assassinated. He might decide to come of retirement on his own (for good ends or bad.)
I don't want him to be the main character here. I hate doing it with a passion. I have suffered too many GMNPCs to do that.
Developing NPCs and making them relevant is OK, stealing PCs spotlight with them, bad.
But this guy has been around in the background of so many stories since so many years ago, and my players like to see that their actions have consequences, good or bad, in the destinies of the NPCs that they meet.
The question that keeps coming up to me is how did he know that he needed more forces protecting the fort? Do those enemy forces know about this disgraced knight? Could they use it somehow to further their plans.
The bigger question is what is the next goal for the PC's. If the knight's story can not build towards that goal, then he will have to wait to be a plot device.
His keep was ravaged by a former war. The war ended and most of his troops were reasignated to other places, leaving him with a symbolic regiment, as they didn't expect the fort to be attacked.
He thought that they were not prepared for a possible attack, that's why he wanted more troops.
Then, when he hosted the PCs in his keep the place became a target for the enemies of the PCs and they were attacked.
He knew that, by hosting the PCs he was putting his keep at risk, but he felt like he was doing the right thing.
The PCs are going to retire soon. We are now developing an Epilogue to tell what is the outcome for both PCs and important NPCs, so even if we don't roleplay the trial and what he does after that (and I don't think we will), the players would like to get a few lines in the epilogue telling what happened to him after that.
NOOOOOOOOO!
The Twilight reference just killed me xD
The Robin Hood part made me think of it, though.
In this setting there are 3 main Knighthood orders: LG paladin-like people, LE tyrants and a third one, that instead of upholfdoing traditions and order, they fight to protect the people and end tyranny and social inequality. They are mostly NG (even though they accept any non evil people) and recruit a lot of renegades from the two former orders.
It looks like he might end joining them after the trial, specially if it goes badly.
But for now, what kind of creative punishments can you think that his LG but kinda corrupt Knighthood order might impose on him? Because they are not willing to be forgiving.
He was resurrected without them knowing (the PCs did it) so they didn't have too much to say about that.
You could go the Morte de Arthur Lancelot route and have him go off as a holy hermit, and one day come back and save the day. Perhaps his seducer was some brand of fiend or fey, and caused him to underperform. Give him a chance to go out with style. Broken goody two shoes make rather tiresome villains, because you have to keep them as clueless as teenagers in a slasher pic.
Good ideas there.
If I give him an antagonistic role I don't think I'd make them the kind of enemy that keeps fighting and losing to the party. That never works in my games and it gets old soon.
Neither I think he'd go evil, being the kind of person he is he'd have to change a lot. But making him some kind of social agitator or join a faction who oposes the knights is a more subtle and logic thing.
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There's also the possibility that he might end up being the figurehead for an insurrection in the Solamnic Order. Maybe many other knights see how he's been (mis)treated by the leaders of the order, and come to the conclusion that they're completely corrupt and so launch a civil war within the order to purge it of the corrupt leaders.
This knight NPC doesn't even have to be leading or even involved in said civil war. He might even think that knights who set off the insurrection in his name are going too far. It's what's happened to him that set it off.
Great idea, Ventnor!! I love it!!
Ventnor, I love that one! This has a lot of posibilities. He even has a younger sister who is sort of a social agitator, so it fits her.
The idea that he could start a rebellion after having stopped trying is very interesting?
Do you want to see changes? Well, here are your changes!!! XD
I've still not decided what to do with him but I'm starting to paint an interesting picture.
So far I'm thinking of stripping him of all his ranks and maybe convince him to pass all his nobility titles to his older sister's husband, and maybe have a revolution started in his name without him being involved.
I'll probably send him to a dangerous destination if he decides to stay at the Knightly Order and if he doesn't I'll have him joining the order I mentioned in a previous post.
Still thinking of different ideas, though.
It's a good situation where you can see several possible ways the story could go and they all lead somewhere interesting. At that point, you can put it in the hands of the players - hold some kind of trial where they can influence the result. Whatever the outcome, it can be a consequence of their actions.
That's more or less what we have planned. They should testify about him and be able to condemn him or save him... Probably condemn him, as our Fighter hates him... a lot.
There need not be a violent revolution. The paladin can be thought of as a saint of sorts by a growing movement. Let the party, and particularly the fighter be revered as his holy vessels. All their good deeds are seen as flowing from him through them.
The party is not a good starter for this. The fighter hates him and the other PCs are not even knights. I can see her trying to calm things down, though.
The party being a non-starter for this is why it would work in a game. Nothing changes in the game, especially at first. Stories grow in the retelling. Everything gets twisted around to show the party's greater glory in the glow of the rising Saint. Small children bring the fighter flowers. Her protests of hating the good Saint are understood as her attempts to resist carnal love over holy love. She is loved and respected for this. Her suffering this way just shows the greater glory...........
I just don't see that working in this game, even though it could be an interesting story.
Update:
Today we had finally the resolution for the campaign and it went everything in the most weird way possible.
It was a heavily modified Reign of Winter campaign set on Dragonlance. We had a lot of sub-plots that weren't on the original AP.
With a lot of sacrifices, we avoided freeing Baba Yaga and managed to stop the Eternal Winter using other means. We captured Elvanna alive.
This man was the commander of a keep that helped us against the Winter Witches and it was them who ravaged the keep and killed him trying to recover Baba Yaga's prison. My witch resurrected him after that.
After all that he felt like he had nothing remaining in life. He was willing to accept any punishment.
First, he made a deal with the God of Death for some information about how to close the portals. He saw it as making a sacrifice to save the world, as he didn't want to have anybody else paying the price and he felt like he had nothing left.
So he realized he could no longer be a Knight having a secret deal with an Evil god. His sense of honor wouldn't let him. He awaited judgement knowing he'd have to confess and be punished for it.
Then they were discussing about what to make with both the crown of Irrisen and Baba Yaga's doll. They couldn't come to an aggreement so they negotiated with regent Cassisoche to give her the crown so she was recognized as a legitimate heir to the throne. In exchange she'd have to accept a consort to watch over her and make some changes in Irrisen. Guess who was the only one willing to sacrifice himself? He hated the idea but had nothing to lose, and he hoped he could be of help doing it.
Both my PC and the fighter hated the idea, as they don't like him and thought he'd fail.
But things went even more south. Cassisoche wanted also Baba Yaga's doll and was willing to start a war for it. The Wizards wanted the doll. The Knights wanted the doll. And all of them were willing to command the party to handle it.
The PCs were divided. Nobody knew what was best to do. The fighter wanted to start a war. The Hunter wanted to avoid giving anything to the Winter Witches. The Wizard wanted to keep his brother-in-law (the knight) safe. My witch just wanted everything to come to an end and everybody stop arguing.
So we had to decide as players, not in character. We were going to pick the option that made more sense and our PCs would have to deal with consequences. So we decided as a group what we thought could make a good further story. Even if our characters disagreed, as a group we had clear what could be fun to happen.
So, long story short, pushed by his too commanding and straightforward sister, he ended provoking Elvanna's death, stealing Baba Yaga's prison and handing it over to Cassisoche and running away with her to Irrisen to avoid starting a war. The Knights are going to brand him as one of the biggest betrayers of History. The PCs might be trying to hunt him down.
He's still not a bad man. But everything has gone really really south. I didn't expect this outcome when I asked for ideas on how to handle it.
Who knows? Maybe he is even able to get to make a difference and change things for better.
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Bad news: He is not a Paladin. I cannot make him fall. Sigh!
Bad news: He is not a Paladin. I cannot make him fall. Sigh!
I enjoy a story where a fallen hero rises to be a hero again, but I do not enjoy seeing a good person fall. I do not understand why so many people like to see the good guy fall. Good benefits others. Evil does not care about others. I am one of the "others". It does not make sense to me why people cheer for the bad guy.
I think your comment was not serious, but intended as sarcasm. So none of what I said is directed at you Dalindra. It is just a trend in popular fiction that bothers me.Kileanna, I do like how you keep the story going, and you are not willing to just give up on a good person.
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I created this character some time ago as a NPC.
I made two of Dalindra's characters fall by accident (I've posted it somewhere and now I'm looking it to copypaste into another thread as soon as I find it).
Since then Dalindra always makes jokes on me about making my characters fall, but he's not serious. Just an inner joke.
I can see how mean his comment can seem taken out of context but as much as he can pick on me, he's not the kind who enjoys making paladins fall.
I love stories of fall and redemption, and it's always be a theme on our stories, but as much as we can joke about it, we never liked a lot those characters who just go evil.
In this case he is a good guy going the wrong way trying to do the good thing. I think it's a good reflexion about when does good become evil and how a person can turn to the dark side because of being good.
I never liked black or white morality and exploring all that shades is great.
I love Dalindra's fallen paladin, as he's still a good person inside. He has found intelligent undead and fights for getting acceptance for them as citizens. He's a weird character but he's great.
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Dalindra's fallen paladin sounds interesting. I did not know about you accidentally causing his paladins to fall. Looking forward to reading about it. I hope I did not come across as someone that was attacking Dalindra. It was not my intent.
Exploring morality is one of the great things about RPGs. I think it a great part of the game. It can teach us things about ourselves we never knew before. Keep up the good storytelling.
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Craig, I know it was not meant as any kind of attack against me, but I would like to explain my comment anyway. Like Kileanna said, it was just an inner joke. I apologize for not being more clear. I think I have not made a hero fall since... mmm... never. I love when a villain is redeemed, but I hate when a hero falls. My characters are usually the kind who put themselves in grave danger just because they keep trying to redeem what everyone calls a "lost cause". And I treasure the memories of those events when I could redeem those characters as some of the fondest ones I have in the RPGs.
Back to topic: I was the GM for that story and I think have some interesting ideas about the destiny of the knight. They could lead to his eternal damnation... or to a total vindication and redemption. At this point the campaign is over, so I am thinking about GMing a short story just for Kileanna so she can decide the destiny of the knight (She deserves it: the knight started as a NPC in one of her stories, after all). Advantages of living together ^-^
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Dalindra's fallen paladin sounds interesting. I did not know about you accidentally causing his paladins to fall. Looking forward to reading about it. I hope I did not come across as someone that was attacking Dalindra. It was not my intent.
Exploring morality is one of the great things about RPGs. I think it a great part of the game. It can teach us things about ourselves we never knew before. Keep up the good storytelling.
Thanks!
I re-posted the story of his accidental antipaladin in Players do the Darndest Things (Gamers Talk). Just to show that I sometimes suck as a GM xD.
I was more unexperienced then.
Exploring morality is one of my favorite things of roleplaying. I am not against the alignment system as many people are, but I tend to develope characters more than alignment-wise, as I strongly believe that everybody has a good side and a bad side.
Some of my evil character have done noble sacrifices for a greater good and some of my good characters do morally questionable things too many times.
I.e. This Knight's sister is LG and has been dancing with the dark side since his brother is so down. She is the kind of people who is willing to do a lot of questionable things for the greater good. And that is walking on thin ice.