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The question's in the title.
For example, I'm a wizard with a Headband of Vast Intelligence +4. I need ten days of downtime to upgrade it to +6 at accelerated rate. But on the fifth day something unexpected happens and I have to actually do my job as a murderhobo. Can I use the +4 version of the headband while I'm resolving my problems and then continue upgrading it the next day from the point I left it at? I haven't found anything in the rules implying that I can't but decided to check nontheless.
Thx in advance.
Yes you can use it. The creation rules have a section on enchanting over long and/or interrupted periods and the item is still valid during 'upgrade'.
Can I drive my car while it's in the workshop being upgraded?
Seriously, it were my table, you could use it, but the upgrading process would have to be started from scratch. Also, if your DM interrupted your upgrade and does not allow you to use your item, it's a dick move.
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Can I drive my car while it's in the workshop being upgraded?
Seriously, it were my table, you could use it, but the upgrading process would have to be started from scratch. Also, if your DM interrupted your upgrade and does not allow you to use your item, it's a dick move.
That is not what the rules say.
Do you have some evidence to back up your claim?
It also raises the question of whether you can use the stat boosts of the magical item for rolls using those stats during the upgrade process. It's a can of worms best avoided by following the RAW.
@Klorox: I really do not agree with you. Not only is your opinion not supported by the rules, it also doesn't make any sense.
The magical item is not left in a workshop while it's upgraded. I also don't see how using a magical item would break the upgrading progress before the upgrade was finalized.
You're saying that you can't drive your car in between sessions of fixing it up, even though it never was broken enough to stop running in the first place. If you know that you need to drive your car tomorrow, you probably make sure that it still runs before you stop fixing it up for the day. Otherwise you're not fixing it, you're breaking it.
Thay's what *I* don't agree with, when boosting an items's enchantment, you're basically re enchanting it, only stronger, that's a process that should go more or less uninterrupted from start to end, if you take up the item to use it, you are interrupting the process and taking the item out of it, which is more more than simply leaving the process unfinished while waiting to be able to resume it, it's using the old enchantment, so essentially taking the item back to what it was before the update started.
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You're not re-enchanting it. You're boosting the existing enchantment.
If you interrupted me while I was half way through sharpening my sword it wouldn't be any less effective than before I started sharpening it. Why should it be different if I'm improving the enhancement bonus of a sword?
Keep in mind that unless the headband is worn for at least 24 hours the bonus is considered a temporary bonus. This means you get the bonus for skill rolls and the DC of the saving throws of your spells, but not the other things.
I would say that you can use the item but unless you have it on for 24 hours you will not get the full benefits from it.
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Keep in mind that unless the headband is worn for at least 24 hours the bonus is considered a temporary bonus. This means you get the bonus for skill rolls and the DC of the saving throws of your spells, but not the other things.
I would say that you can use the item but unless you have it on for 24 hours you will not get the full benefits from it.
This was the first thing that came to my mind.
You will need to remove the item to upgrade it, thus it is not a permanent bonus to your ability score.
As far as I know, the rules don't actually cover this.
If I was your GM...well I don't allow for magical item crafting anyways so it wouldn't matter.
Well, in the sense that you don't save any money and the crafting feats don't exist but you can say your character crafted the item if you want to have that role playing part. I'm not going to penalize you if you do "craft" your items and you are "upgrading" it when something happens that you need to take care of.
It's best to not make up interpretations of rules to fit your own house rules. Since you don't play with the crafting feats, maybe you're not aware of it, but there is nothing about crafting that requires that you lose your item as it is being upgraded. Obviously you cannot use the item as it is being crafted, but there are no other rules to support your interpretation of crafting-so there is no need to impose your house rules on the rules forum. Upgrading an item via crafting only limits your access to the item while it's being crafted. Nothing else.
Exactly, the crafting rules don't state anything about what happens if upgrading is interrupted.
It can mean one of 2 things:
1) Nothing happens.
2) The devs didn't think about writing anything for the scenario.
No need to be insulting about the statements I made, I was providing an opinion on about how it should be ran which is "don't penalize players for this". Which is a perfectly valid statement to make.
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Yup, no problem using an item while it's being enchanted or upgraded.
As far as the 'temporary' ability bonus thing, there really is no difference between a temporary ability bonus and a permanent bonus when it comes to affecting things like stat modifiers, bonus spells, and other similar effects. The only thing you really lose are the bonus skill ranks, and the bonus language that the headband should also give you.
Bonus Spells/ Spell Slots is the big one. Also extra uses per day of abilities.
This is a good point though, that a lot of things people care about attached to headbands (mental stat increases) just don't work if you haven't worn if for 24 hours consecutively.
Of course I also seem to recall the devs saying that this was more like a soft rule of "you can't use anything else in that slot" because otherwise adventures have to bathe and do everything else with them on or else they stop functioning. Which I seem to recall them saying that definitely wasn't their intention.
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You will need to remove the item to upgrade it, thus it is not a permanent bonus to your ability score.
Since we're in the realm of "the rules don't say the item doesn't work while it's in the process of being upgraded"... I don't think there's a rule saying you can't upgrade an item while it's on your head.
Yup, no problem using an item while it's being enchanted or upgraded.
As far as the 'temporary' ability bonus thing, there really is no difference between a temporary ability bonus and a permanent bonus when it comes to affecting things like stat modifiers, bonus spells, and other similar effects. The only thing you really lose are the bonus skill ranks, and the bonus language that the headband should also give you.
You don't get bonus spells from temporary bonuses, you can't qualify for feats; basically the ONLY thing you get is the +1 to related rolls and DCs.
The whole temporary/permanent thing is very confusing.
Because why have the different types exist they are basically the same thing.
As far as I can tell, the only thing permanent ability scores bonuses do that temporary ones don't is give you the extra skill points/languages. I'm not even sure that's accurate though.
And this is once again a reason I prefer Automatic Bonus Progression.
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You will need to remove the item to upgrade it, thus it is not a permanent bonus to your ability score.Since we're in the realm of "the rules don't say the item doesn't work while it's in the process of being upgraded"... I don't think there's a rule saying you can't upgrade an item while it's on your head.
I will take this as a joke.
Otherwise it becomes circular as the rules don't say you can upgrade it while wearing it either.
The FAQ is referring to temporary bonuses affecting things like Dex to damage that aren't specifically mentioned in the glossary; it wasn't intended to completely change the way temporary ability scores work.
I mean, I guess you could read it that way, but then why would the extra skill points not be included with "everything." Assuming the FAQ completely eliminates the difference between temporary and permanent bonuses, the headband should grant extra skill points as soon as it's worn in addition to the bonus ranks gained after 24 hours.
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Ok, clearly people need more than just the excerpt:
FROM THE FAQ
How can there be any doubt?Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do. The section in the glossary was very tight on space and it was not possible to list every single ability score-related game effect that an ability score bones would affect.
The purpose of the temporary ability score ruling is to make it so you don't have to rebuild your character every time you get a bull's strength or similar spell; it just summarizes the most common game effects relative to that ability score.
For example, most of the time when you get bull's strength, you're using it for combat, so the glossary mentions Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, Strength-based weapon damage rolls, CMB, and CMD. It doesn't call out melee attack rolls that use Dex instead of Str (such as when using Weapon Finesse) or situations where your applied Str bonus should be halved or multiplied (such as whith off-hand or two-handed weapons). You're usually not using the spell for a 1 min./level increase in your carrying capacity, so that isn't mentioned there, but the bonus should still apply to that, as well as to Strength checks to break down doors.
Think of it in the same way that a simple template has "quick rules" and "rebuild rules;" they're supposed to create monsters which are roughly equivalent in terms of stats, but the quick rules are a short cut that misses some details compared to using the rebuild rules. Likewise, the temporary ability score rule is intended as a short cut to speed up gameplay, not as the most precise way of applying the bonus.
A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does.
My underdtanding was that you don't get those things I mentioned so that you cannot weasel around the rules to do things like take an item on and off to change the bonus you get from it.
Ex: Headband +4 to get bonus spells, memorize spell X, yet while adventuring you need spell Y, problem solved as you remove headband and lose the bonus spell. Then put it back on and memorize new spell in the bonus spell slot.
Maybe we are too strict, maybe not.
You're not re-enchanting it. You're boosting the existing enchantment.
If you interrupted me while I was half way through sharpening my sword it wouldn't be any less effective than before I started sharpening it. Why should it be different if I'm improving the enhancement bonus of a sword?
Maybe, but if you go into a fight with your partially sharpened sword, you'll have to resharpen it from scratch.
Since we're in the realm of "the rules don't say the item doesn't work while it's in the process of being upgraded"... I don't think there's a rule saying you can't upgrade an item while it's on your head.I will take this as a joke.
Otherwise it becomes circular as the rules don't say you can upgrade it while wearing it either.
Which is what most rules debates come down to.
"The rules don't say you can use it while it's being upgraded, so you can't.""The rules don't say you can't use it while it's being upgraded, so you can."
Here, we're trying to apply common sense to a gap in the rules. Your common sense tells you that you can't work on a headband while wearing it. What about a belt? In real life I can sew a button on to a piece of clothing I'm wearing. But is the magic-upgrading process too complicated a task for that? The rules don't say much about the details of what's involved. What about upgrading a headband someone else is wearing? Does that seem too silly? Basically we're in "Ask your GM" territory.
That sure is my ruling, which might or might not agree with the rules, but upgrading the enchantment of an item is in itself an enchanting process, and I would certainly rule that doing so precludes the item being used while the process is following its course, using the item before the upgrade is finished demands that the process starts again from the start, interrupting the process is as per the rules, but the item should not be used while waiting for it to resume. (meaning you'd better have a spare if you want to keep use of such an item while working on the upgrade, and/or make sure your DM won't want to prevent you from working)
I've not seen anything in the rules allowing actual use of an item while it's being upgraded, interruption and resuming of the process, yes, but not tampering with the work in progress, which substracting the item from the workbench and using it certainly is... the rules seem to assume the item that is being worked on is being worked on and nothing special happens to it while that is being done, beyond it maybe being stowed for transport.
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My underdtanding was that you don't get those things I mentioned so that you cannot weasel around the rules to do things like take an item on and off to change the bonus you get from it.
Ex: Headband +4 to get bonus spells, memorize spell X, yet while adventuring you need spell Y, problem solved as you remove headband and lose the bonus spell. Then put it back on and memorize new spell in the bonus spell slot.
Maybe we are too strict, maybe not.
Why would it work like that? How do you even identify which 'spell' is the extra one?
If you've memorized 4 spells but can only cast 3 because you took off your headband, you cast 3 of the spells, then you're done. If you put the headband back on, you can now cast the 4th. How is that abusive?
What makes you think you can re-memorize a new spell once you've already used up your slots for the day? The slots don't 'refresh' just because you put a headband back on.
I guess if you want to be really strict, you can say that the extra slot doesn't 'activate' until you prepare spells the next day, but I hardly see the need to go that far.
This is the reason, from my understanding, why the increase in Int gives ranks in a specific skill and not just skill points. To stop those types of shenanigans.
So how do you tell? You don't really, but it an abuse that is there and as I said, the way we have been working it seemed to be in line with how skill points are in regards to Int increase.
It is abusive because it is definitely not how it should work, but you started the day at 4 so why would you not still have 4 when you did the "quick swap".
And in the end being strict is just saying that if you take it off you lose those spell slots and such.
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My underdtanding was that you don't get those things I mentioned so that you cannot weasel around the rules to do things like take an item on and off to change the bonus you get from it.
Ex: Headband +4 to get bonus spells, memorize spell X, yet while adventuring you need spell Y, problem solved as you remove headband and lose the bonus spell. Then put it back on and memorize new spell in the bonus spell slot.
Maybe we are too strict, maybe not.
Why would it work like that? How do you even identify which 'spell' is the extra one?
If you've memorized 4 spells but can only cast 3 because you took off your headband, you cast 3 of the spells, then you're done. If you put the headband back on, you can now cast the 4th. How is that abusive?
What makes you think you can re-memorize a new spell once you've already used up your slots for the day? The slots don't 'refresh' just because you put a headband back on.
I guess if you want to be really strict, you can say that the extra slot doesn't 'activate' until you prepare spells the next day, but I hardly see the need to go that far.
This is the reason, from my understanding, why the increase in Int gives ranks in a specific skill and not just skill points. To stop those types of shenanigans.
So how do you tell? You don't really, but it an abuse that is there and as I said, the way we have been working it seemed to be in line with how skill points are in regards to Int increase.
It is abusive because it is definitely not how it should work, but you started the day at 4 so why would you not still have 4 when you did the "quick swap".
And in the end being strict is just saying that if you take it off you lose those spell slots and such.
Again, how is it an abuse if you just rule that you get back the same spell that was memorized in that slot after you put the headband back on.
I fail to see how it can be abused, can you explain?
I did. That part where I mention why the ruled how skill points worked with the headband if Int. Same reasoning.
An item in the process of upgrading is essentially being reenchanted, you can't use an unfinished item.
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I did.Again, how is it an abuse if you just rule that you get back the same spell that was memorized in that slot after you put the headband back on.
I fail to see how it can be abused, can you explain?
No, you 'explained' by making a whole bunch of unnecessary assumptions about what happens to the slot when the headband is removed and replaced.
Now, assuming that you just get back the spell that you had already memorized, how can it be abused?
After your edit:
Except skill points don't work like that either.
Yet they did. Thus the headband was changed to work as it now does to avoid it.
This conversation is a circle now. You say nuh-uh to my every ya-ha.
Yes, I'm late to the party, sue me.
The question's in the title.
For example, I'm a wizard with a Headband of Vast Intelligence +4. I need ten days of downtime to upgrade it to +6 at accelerated rate. But on the fifth day something unexpected happens and I have to actually do my job as a murderhobo. Can I use the +4 version of the headband while I'm resolving my problems and then continue upgrading it the next day from the point I left it at? I haven't found anything in the rules implying that I can't but decided to check nontheless.
Thx in advance.
The RAW doesn't really say, nor should it. It's a case-by-case basis.
RAI, it's a GM call. I'd personally rule that it either doesn't function (if you're altering the only existing effect) because the magic item must be dormant in order to improve upon it, or that specific power of the item doesn't function (if you're altering a single effect of an item with multiple powers), because that's the magical part that you're improving, which again, must be dormant.