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This may be a silly question, but I've been combing FAQs, errata and forum posts but have not been able to come to a conclusion.
I know that an Investigator can choose a non-level restricted Investigator Talent at 3rd level. Studied Combat comes online at 4th level. But it isn't clear that you can't take Quick Study as your 3rd level talent in preparation of being able to use it at 4th level.
And yes, I'm fully aware that doing so means you have a dud talent for a level. Let's say, for argument's sake, I simply do not care about taking Mutagen, Infusion, Extend Potion Discovery, etc., and will take Quick Study provided I'm allowed to do so at 3rd level, full stop.
Am I allowed to do so?
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There's no text saying "you have to have class feature X before you can take this power that improves X", but that is the normal way of doing things.
So technically I don't think it's illegal, but it's clearly against the spirit of the rules. Call it "one of the bugs from ACG that didn't get fixed in the first reprint".
Actually I thought there was something that said you can't take "Improve X" until you have "X".
Although technically I think what I'm thinking of was specifically referring to favoured-class-bonuses, so may not be applicable here.
So I'm not really sure either.
Dotting to see what people come up with I guess.
While it's apparently within the bounds of RAW, it's clearly against RAI, make of it what you and your DM will.
You won't get any use for Quick Study until you actually get studied combat, but, true, having it at lvl 3 would let you make use of it as soon as you hit lvl 4.
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That FAQ only specifically encompassed favored class bonuses though, not the larger cadre of things.
I agree however, that it should provide precedent that no, you can't take somethings that augments an ability before you have the ability.
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I appreciate the responses so far and am at least happy to know I'm not crazy or blind in being unable to find a clear answer to this question. I tried looking through the Rogue's talent list to see if there was a similar issue since Investigators are a hybrid of Rogue and Alchemist, but at no point could I find a Rogue talent that was available before a Rogue class feature came online. I finally got a PFS Investigator up to 3rd level and hit a roadblock on how to proceed. =/
I'm fairly sure the FAQ people are referring to is just about Favoured Class Bonuses, so it doesn't explicitly relate to what we're talking about here. However there's something somewhere that says: "If you can't' find a rule, look for something similar". That means I feel like the default here should be that you can't take the feat at level 3.
Having said all that, as Jose Hernandez 622 pointed out - The retraining rules specifically DO allow you to retrain your level 3 feat to something you only qualify for at level 4. That means with a bit of money invested you absolutely can use that "feat-slot" for Quick Study (This also makes the "default says No" idea seem kinda stupid, but oh well).
I don't think the FAQ was about FCBs. I think it was in answer to a question about a feat. Now I really want to find it.
I don't know if there's an FAQ about it, but the Core Rulebook talks about feats needing their prerequisites before you can take them. Again though, that's about feats, not discoveries.
yeah, mutagen is giving better combat boost at lv3 than lv4 study is. plus 1 level of move action study isn't bad. you move and use extract or ready an action or attack, then next round you move action to study and standard attack. yes a swift action option is super nice, but it's not critical at lv4 when you likely have no way to get off 2 attacks on a full attack.
So technically I don't think it's illegal, but it's clearly against the spirit of the rules. Call it "one of the bugs from ACG that didn't get fixed in the first reprint".
Actually I thought there was something that said you can't take "Improve X" until you have "X".
While it's apparently within the bounds of RAW, it's clearly against RAI, make of it what you and your DM will.
All you have to do is look at some of the traits to see that that IS the RAI/spirit of the rules. Honored Fist of the Society lets your monk "increase your ki pool by 1 point". The monk doesn't have a pool at 1st. Open Palm of Irori modifies your ki pool. Magical Lineage's spell doesn't have to be one you can cast at 1st. Wayang Spellhunter comes out and TELLS you up to 3rd level spells can be picked. A human's racial trait Eye for Talent modifies your "animal companion, bonded mount, cohort, or familiar" and you don't get a bonded mount at 1st.
As to an FAQ, there is none. There IS a post I found though: Post. So it seems it's still unofficial [except for PFS maybe?] and even if it was, it looks like even if it was it'd be limited to FCB. If there is any official update to this please post the info.
Then explain why human barbarians can't take their FCB until level 2 at the earliest.
I've showed several traits that modify abilities you get beyond 1st. So I've shown my work. If you have something official showing that that barbarian can't take their FCB at first, please link. Again, even if what you say is true, it's not a consistent RAI/spirit of the rules if I can find a handful of rules that do the opposite of that RAI/spirit.
Also, there is absolutely an FAQ. You not being able to find it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Please note in my post this statement: "If there is any official update to this please post the info." If there IS an FAQ, please link. Otherwise I see your statement as moot and adds nothing.
So far all I've found is the PFS guy making a post, in a non-PFS area, about FCB needing to wait for the class to get the ability. If it truly sets up a precedent then a pile of other rules will have to be changed as they don't work under that precedent.
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When do I count as having a class feature?
When can I take an FCB?
For the top two questions in this post read that he wrote this added to it..."This isn’t actually a new rule. It’s just a clarification that I confirmed with the design team because it seemed that some folks were assuming otherwise."
RAW seems to allow you to take quick study. Since there is no pre-req.
But it won't be usable at all until you actually get Studied Combat
Man I can't remember where the FAQ is located either and I don't have the time to find it right now.
In the current ACG on the section about FCB it talks about how you can't select the FCB if you don't have the feature yet, so it's no longer just a FAQ but in a hardcover.
In the current ACG on the section about FCB it talks about how you can't select the FCB if you don't have the feature yet, so it's no longer just a FAQ but in a hardcover.
This section is not present on the PRD, or I'm going more blind ( I freely admit this possibity).
I'm sorry, I mis-remembered. It's in occult adventures, page 84.
"If an alternate favored class option modifies a class
feature or ability, it can’t be taken before the character has
that class feature or ability. For example, if a class gains a
class feature at 6th level, a character couldn’t take a racial
favored class option that applies to that class feature until
6th level, even if the benefit from that option wouldn’t be
high enough to add a bonus until a later level."
That's quibble-proof, I would say.
I think is possible that limitation is only for FCB. It's basically just there to prevent a few FCB from getting overpowered. Those FCB that have since gotten nerfed anyway.
This discussion has wandered enough that I forgot the original topic. The text in OA looks to only affect FCB to me, it leaves open the issue that the OP raised.
It doesn't say so it doesn't require anything.
Its no different than taking Spell Focus without the Spellcasting Class or grabbing a Metamagic before you can cast (presuming it has no pre-requisites). Pure As Written, it doesn't care if you have the class feature or not.
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Feats and the like typically include the pre-req that you have the ability it modifies. There is a FAQ that covers when you count as having the ability for the pre-req.
If there is no pre-req then it doesn't matter. You can take the feat or option early but you get no benefit until you have the ability it modifies. This would be the rare case.