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This talk about greedy crafters makes me want to be a CE character that pays him and then kills him in his sleep and takes back my gold and his stuff to boot.
This is the overlooked fact by those claiming that "merchants" need to be paid for their time - those people adventuring with them start treating them as "merchants" instead of brothers.
If your character wants to murder people over a 10% discount difference then they're probably not a good fit for a team anyway.
This talk about greedy crafters makes me want to be a CE character that pays him and then kills him in his sleep and takes back my gold and his stuff to boot.
This is the overlooked fact by those claiming that "merchants" need to be paid for their time - those people adventuring with them start treating them as "merchants" instead of brothers.
That is when things go into spiral and he makes a Bloodrager and kills you while your awake, struggling and powerless still to do a damn thing about it.
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If we were to assume that PCs lacked any sort of "Detect Fellow PC" ability, would this discussion have even come up? Out of character, the players know that the other PCs will at best stay with them for the duration of the campaign and at worst disappear immediately, never to be seen again. NPCs, on the other hand, could come back as ungrateful enemies -- and other NPCs who craft items would never agree to do so at cost no matter how much they like the party.
So, unless we accept that the PCs have the same ability as the players themselves to "Detect Fellow PC", why would they be happy with an NPC who crafts items at 75% of price (and thus 50% above cost) but unhappy with a PC who crafts items at 60% of price (and thus 20% above cost)?
I guess the real question here would be at what point the bond among the PCs would be strong enough for a PC to be willing to make items at cost for fellow PCs?
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If we were in the army and you couldn't clean your rifle to save your life and i did it for you, would you be cool with paying me to fix it for you?
Uh, yeah.
You're going out of your way to do something for me and telling me upfront how much it would cost. I'm okay with that. If you want to do it for free, thanks! Your awesome. But you don't have to do it. And I am not entitled to having you do it. You're spending your time to do something for me.
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Man, I wouldn't craft anything for you guys like, ever.
Maybe its just a cultural difference showing through the internet but if my brother came to me and asked me to make him something for free/at cost I would tell him no and go on with my day.
There is a difference between freely giving a gift to a friend and a friend demanding a free gift that I think many of you should consider more closely.
Man, I wouldn't craft anything for you guys like, ever.
Maybe its just a cultural difference showing through the internet but if my brother came to me and asked me to make him something for free/at cost I would tell him no and go on with my day.
There is a difference between freely giving a gift to a friend and a friend demanding a free gift that I think many of you should consider more closely.
Sounds close to entitlement on some of the arguments.
Last Crafter I made I sold many items at 60% due to outrageous Diplomacy and social skills. SO I could make money IF I chose too. I did not. The character only demanded from the party IF she crafted them something on a request they had to do 2 things for her. 1: Never sell the item. SHe was a Shelynite and her Crafting was one of her many arts. Her art and time to them is a GIFT and not to be profited off. 2: They never let harm come to the Item as long as they live and GIFT it to someone under the same rules as #1. She would not craft for anyone that was not her close friends so each PC had to spend time with her on a personal level before she would take crafting requests. I could have asked for 10% of the cost but that was not the Characters personality to craft for fortune. She also made each PC and some NPCs small gifts like Animated portiats, Beads, weapon cords and dragonskin handles. Little things that they never thought about or asked for because she was a Carebear.
But asking upfront for anything in return for crafting is not being disruptive or not a team player. regardless if it is gold or promises or whatever.
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Your bloodrager would fail, because now I have more than WBL from stealing all the crafter's gold. But this devolution shows my point about what can happen to party dynamics when one player tries to be more powerful than everyone else by subverting all the party loot to himself.That is when things go into spiral and he makes a Bloodrager and kills you while your awake, struggling and powerless still to do a damn thing about it.This talk about greedy crafters makes me want to be a CE character that pays him and then kills him in his sleep and takes back my gold and his stuff to boot.
This is the overlooked fact by those claiming that "merchants" need to be paid for their time - those people adventuring with them start treating them as "merchants" instead of brothers.
This is operating on the assumption the crafter is only giving a 40% discount because they want to have more money than the others and lot because, ya'know, they're a person and want to be treated with respect.
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The title of the OP is full price.If your character wants to murder people over a 10% discount difference then they're probably not a good fit for a team anyway.This talk about greedy crafters makes me want to be a CE character that pays him and then kills him in his sleep and takes back my gold and his stuff to boot.
This is the overlooked fact by those claiming that "merchants" need to be paid for their time - those people adventuring with them start treating them as "merchants" instead of brothers.
Which I and the others weren't talking about and haven't been talking about.
Sounds close to entitlement on some of the arguments.Man, I wouldn't craft anything for you guys like, ever.
Maybe its just a cultural difference showing through the internet but if my brother came to me and asked me to make him something for free/at cost I would tell him no and go on with my day.
There is a difference between freely giving a gift to a friend and a friend demanding a free gift that I think many of you should consider more closely.
Entitlement - "the belief that one is inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment"
Commodity - "a useful or valuable thing, such as water or time"
Valuing your own time as a commodity is almost the exact opposite of entitlement, if you are managing to equate those two concepts then I see that I should never have commented in the first place.
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Sounds close to entitlement on some of the arguments.Man, I wouldn't craft anything for you guys like, ever.
Maybe its just a cultural difference showing through the internet but if my brother came to me and asked me to make him something for free/at cost I would tell him no and go on with my day.
There is a difference between freely giving a gift to a friend and a friend demanding a free gift that I think many of you should consider more closely.
Entitlement - "the belief that one is inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment"
Commodity - "a useful or valuable thing, such as water or time"
Valuing your own time as a commodity is almost the exact opposite of entitlement, if you are managing to equate those two concepts then I see that I should never have commented in the first place.
Louise was agreeing with you.
Woops, sorry for jumping at you Louise.
Woops, sorry for jumping at you Louise.
It's ok.
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So, in the real world, if this situation came up and i tried to charge you for something like this? There is a thing called "Blue Falcon" or "Sock Party" that comes up. You dont profit off your battle buddies. And if you try it the rest of the team teaches you better. In the ground forces those lessons tend to be much harsher. On the Staff side you just get ostracized and find that everyone you work with can and will go out of their way to snub you for being so one-way. Its hard to imagine that a group of PCs who live and fight together wouldnt develop the same mentality very quickly.If we were in the army and you couldn't clean your rifle to save your life and i did it for you, would you be cool with paying me to fix it for you?Uh, yeah.
You're going out of your way to do something for me and telling me upfront how much it would cost. I'm okay with that. If you want to do it for free, thanks! Your awesome. But you don't have to do it. And I am not entitled to having you do it. You're spending your time to do something for me.
That's a military, not a band of fantasy adventures. It also comes off a bit sociopathic, you have to do everything free for your "buddies", or else. If I would like for you to make me something and you offer to do it at cost, great! If you offer a 40% discount also great! If you offer only a 10% that's still great because I'm still paying less than if I'm going somewhere else and also my buddy is getting paid so double bonus.
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If we were to assume that PCs lacked any sort of "Detect Fellow PC" ability, would this discussion have even come up? Out of character, the players know that the other PCs will at best stay with them for the duration of the campaign and at worst disappear immediately, never to be seen again. NPCs, on the other hand, could come back as ungrateful enemies -- and other NPCs who craft items would never agree to do so at cost no matter how much they like the party.
So, unless we accept that the PCs have the same ability as the players themselves to "Detect Fellow PC", why would they be happy with an NPC who crafts items at 75% of price (and thus 50% above cost) but unhappy with a PC who crafts items at 60% of price (and thus 20% above cost)?
I guess the real question here would be at what point the bond among the PCs would be strong enough for a PC to be willing to make items at cost for fellow PCs?
Of course they have a "Detect Fellow PC" ability. It's tied directly to this "crafting" thing. PCs can't sell to NPCs for more than a small margin over cost. PCs can't buy from NPCs at more than a small fraction under twice cost.
If you're even debating either of those things, you're both PCs. :)How strong must the bond between PCs be before they're willing to trust their lives to each other? Does any of this change when the items you're crafting for cost are helping the lady who has your back in the fire fight keep you alive? And helping you complete your quest to save the world or rescue the dragon from the princess or whatever it is.
We are talking "band of brothers" here, not "the schmo who sits in the next desk at the office".
The bond can't be that strong is they get angry over a 40% discount.
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Where I'm personally hung up is the argument that the crafter's labor is somehow worth considering. I mean, in the real world this makes perfect sense, but in game? Your "labor" takes place in the downtime (where by definition nothing of import happens) that's resolved in about 5 seconds by the GM saying "you put in your 8 hours" if that followed by maybe a d20 roll. Not exactly great sacrifices being made here...
Yeah, I'm finding that a bit funny too. Nobody's livelihood is bound up in this at all. It strikes me that the debate comes more down to personal political beliefs than anything really important from a game perspective.
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Where I'm personally hung up is the argument that the crafter's labor is somehow worth considering. I mean, in the real world this makes perfect sense, but in game? Your "labor" takes place in the downtime (where by definition nothing of import happens) that's resolved in about 5 seconds by the GM saying "you put in your 8 hours" if that followed by maybe a d20 roll. Not exactly great sacrifices being made here...Yeah, I'm finding that a bit funny too. Nobody's livelihood is bound up in this at all. It strikes me that the debate comes more down to personal political beliefs than anything really important from a game perspective.
And when you don't have unlimited downtime? When the party are doing other things during those 8 hours?
Rysky and Others,
"Giving a 40% Discount" is spurious, when what it means to your crafter is getting 10% MORE than he can get from his available market. I am OK with kicking you an extra 10% tip, right up until you start acting like you are doing me such a huge favor by cutting yourself out of 40% of a price that YOU will never be able to get unless you actually devote yourself to merchanting over adventuring. There is no purchaser available on-demand to pay you what they would charge you and your friends.
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I'm a graphic designer and photographer by profession. I went to college for several years to be good enough to make a living off of it.
Now, years later, some of my family and friends still scoff at the very notion that I might charge them for various projects--and that's fine. Not having to deal with them about such matters allows me more time to MAKE A LIVING.
I see no reason why this wouldn't also be true in-game for characters who trained and invested in the ability to craft magical items. That training means something. You SHOULD get paid for it.
You wouldn't ask an engineer to design a bridge or a doctor to replace a malfunctioning heart for free. If you did, it wouldn't be long before we didn't have have bridges or heart transplants. The engineers and doctors would have all starved to death without compensation, and no one would replace them because who wants to work hard for free? NO ONE WITH ANY SENSE THAT'S WHO.
As for the balance concerns, I wouldn't worry about it too much. If the crafter is willing to craft things at cost, everyone benefits from the increased power. If he isn't willing to do so at cost, however, THEN THAT IS HIS RIGHT AS THE CRAFTER. Should the other players pay up, it still isn't that big a deal due to the fact that the prices tend to go up exponentially for better items.
If the crafter has effectively double the wealth of everyone else, that just means he will have +2 items instead of +1s. If he has quadruple the wealth, then he will have +3s rather than +1s. Ultimately, he's only going to be about 2 points better across the board.
That's not nothing, but it's usually not enough to flip a table over either.
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Where I'm personally hung up is the argument that the crafter's labor is somehow worth considering. I mean, in the real world this makes perfect sense, but in game? Your "labor" takes place in the downtime (where by definition nothing of import happens) that's resolved in about 5 seconds by the GM saying "you put in your 8 hours" if that followed by maybe a d20 roll. Not exactly great sacrifices being made here...
The value of down time is the primary critical factor. If nobody else is doing anything of import while the crafter crafts, then he can demand as payment that the people benefiting from his labor wait on him hand and foot while he is making stuff for them -- and they would then be "working" every bit as hard as he is.
But if there is an opportunity cost to downtime, it would not be out of the question for the crafter to ask someone to go off and buy some magic item for him that he is incapable of making -- in which case the agreed upon markup to the crafting cost could be used to determine whether that request is reasonable.
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Rysky and Others,
"Giving a 40% Discount" is spurious, when what it means to your crafter is getting 10% MORE than he can get from his available market. I am OK with kicking you an extra 10% tip, right up until you start acting like you are doing me such a huge favor by cutting yourself out of 40% of a price that YOU will never be able to get unless you actually devote yourself to merchanting over adventuring. There is no purchaser available on-demand to pay you what they would charge you and your friends.
A PC doesn't take crafting feats to sell to market, they take them to craft for themelseves and their buddies. Making items at a 40% discount IS a huge favor. You're in the same boat if they're no sellers on demand either, or if there is they sell at 100%.
So yes your buddy taking crafts and charging you anything less than 100% for the item you want is in fact doing you a favor.
That's the last I'm going to say, I'm done with the deranged and asinine entitlement in this thread.
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You can't equate real life to the game, because by game terms you are charging your family more than what you charge everyone else.
Huh? I charge my family and friends the same amount for my services as I do everyone else. I do give discounts on occasion, but it's usually not solely on the basis that they are a family or a friend.
Rysky and Others,
"Giving a 40% Discount" is spurious, when what it means to your crafter is getting 10% MORE than he can get from his available market. I am OK with kicking you an extra 10% tip, right up until you start acting like you are doing me such a huge favor by cutting yourself out of 40% of a price that YOU will never be able to get unless you actually devote yourself to merchanting over adventuring. There is no purchaser available on-demand to pay you what they would charge you and your friends.
A high Cha/diplo for selling at an extra 10% and perhaps the trait like spark of creation -5% on crafting...So a player could be making that on the market while still adventuring.
I'm a graphic designer and photographer by profession. I went to college for several years to be good enough to make a living off of it.
Now, years later, some of my family and friends still scoff at the very notion that I might charge them for various projects--and that's fine. Not having to deal with them about such matters allows me more time to MAKE A LIVING.
I see no reason why this wouldn't also be true in-game for characters who trained and invested in the ability to craft magical items. That training means something. You SHOULD get paid for it.
You wouldn't ask an engineer to design a bridge or a doctor to replace a malfunctioning heart for free. If you did, it wouldn't be long before we didn't have have bridges or heart transplants. The engineers and doctors would have all starved to death without compensation, and no one would replace them because who wants to work hard for free? NO ONE WITH ANY SENSE THAT'S WHO.
As for the balance concerns, I wouldn't worry about it too much. If the crafter is willing to craft things at cost, everyone benefits from the increased power. If he isn't willing to do so at cost, however, THEN THAT IS HIS RIGHT AS THE CRAFTER. Should the other players pay up, it still isn't that big a deal due to the fact that the prices tend to go up exponentially for better items.
If the crafter has effectively double the wealth of everyone else, that just means he will have +2 items instead of +1s. If he has quadruple the wealth, then he will have +3s rather than +1s. Ultimately, he's only going to be about 2 points better across the board.
That's not nothing, but it's usually not enough to flip a table over either.
Thank you RD. I feel this same way.