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What are other GMs' or players' experiences with Lucian Thrune in Dance of the Damned? I ran the Menador Keep portion of Dance over the past couple weeks, and Lucian Thrune seemed like a notably weak opponent.
Through careful use of Invisibility, Silence, and Shadowstep, the PCs managed to make it to the second floor and onto the ramparts before the alarm was raised. While the PCs were on the ramparts dealing with the soldiers, Lucian went to and mounted his Wyvern, then executed a flyby attack on the PC Wizard who was flying above the ramparts.
Lucian's Tactics entry say that he "uses Ride-By Attack while using Vital Strike with his greatsword." Is that even legal? Ride-By Attack requires that you "use the charge action" and the FAQ states that a charge action can't "be used in combination with Vital Strike." So the suggested tactic is useless. With a non-reach weapon, Ride-By Attack is also only an effective tactic once or twice before enemies get into position and start readying attacks. Arming Lucian with a lance, combined with the fact that his mount flies, would have answered this problem, as well as given him double damage when he charged, but instead he's flying around with a greatsword.
For all that, the ramparts appear to be the most advantageous location for Lucian to attack. If the alarm is never raised, the PCs are almost certain to find him in the war room without his wyvern and where he can bring none of his mounted combat abilities into play. Or, at night, there's a 20% chance they'll find him asleep, which admittedly leaves him even worse off.
Well, part of what makes him easier to handle is that there are a lot less mooks statted out than the text indicates should be there.
There are 38 soldiers on duty, but just 8 off-duty; there are 12 hour shifts. Unfortunately, that implies that either 8 people are on duty at night or that the numbers are off. It should be half and half. So, you could make it 22/24 (teams of 4, plus the parapet) or 38/38.
My players also used invisibility and stealth to bypass most of their problems at the keep! They even got the drop on Lucian and intimidated him into surrendering to them (they acquired his keepsake and the player rolled a natural 20 on his already super high Intimidate), since for roleplay reasons they didn't want to kill him. My players and I were all extremely surprised at how smoothly the keep adventure went - one of my players is a veteran DM and he said he's never had a mission go that well.
I feel like having Lucian as such an underwhelming opponent worked in the end though, because my PCs started feeling really good about themselves and getting overconfident. They were making plans to strike Barzillai directly when they got the masquerade invitations, and that didn't go quite as well for them haha. If it works for the way your PCs have been playing maybe try to play up how strong they are, how much the people of Kintargo love them, how far they've come as a rebellion, etc. before dropping the Ruby Masquerade on them.
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If a party comes prepared and denies the enemy their advantages, then they deserve the "ease" of victory they earned. Case in point - my players figured out that Menothaguro was an aboleth early on, and figured out how to breathe underwater, get a swim speed, and protect themselves from domination. Once they did all those things, the actual fight with the aboleth was trivial, but they spent a ton of money on preparation.
If they go in their like a surgical strike team, and cut the head off the snake, and the dice go their way, then yes, they deserve victory. It makes them feel like their decisions mean something! And besides, there will be plenty of times where they feel overwhelmed.
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If a party comes prepared and denies the enemy their advantages, then they deserve the "ease" of victory they earned.
I agree with that, and it's really not uncommon with my group of players, but this particular combat was so underwhelming that the players were even commenting on it. The NPC villain is so poorly matched to his "lair" that there is almost no advantage to deny him.
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Hm, technically, isn't the Wyvern doing the charge action, leaving Lucien free to do Vital Strike?
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Hm, technically, isn't the Wyvern doing the charge action, leaving Lucien free to do Vital Strike?
That was not my understanding, though I can't claim to be certain, which is why I phrased it as a question in the first place.
The PRD says this about mounted combat:
If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack.
And the PRD says this about Vital Strike:
When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage.
So, could Lucian have been using the attack action rather than the charge action, which was being used by the mount, and thus used Vital Strike? Maybe, maybe not. But even if he could have used Vital Strike on a mounted charge, Lucian's tactics entry calls for him to use Vital Strike and Ride-By Attack. The text of Ride-By Attack clearly states that the rider takes the charge action:
When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can't exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack.
And that brings us back to the FAQ ruling:
Vital Strike: Can I use this with Spring Attack, or on a charge?
No. Vital Strike can only be used as part of an attack action, which is a specific kind of standard action. Spring Attack is a special kind of full-round action that includes the ability to make one melee attack, not one attack action. Charging uses similar language and can also not be used in combination with Vital Strike.
So, the tactics entry is still suggesting an illegal tactic.
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I agree with you regarding his "power level".
I made a 3D capture of Menador Keep, just to get a visual grip on the keep's defenses.
Menador Keep and Kintargo Opera House 3D
Right?
First of all, your 3D renders look awesome and I kinda wish I had them to show my players during the last few months! Secondly, I think you're spot on with your assessment. The ability to fly should make this a pretty easy encounter. A beefed up Lucian Thrune would definitely help if your party can just fly onto the second floor.
... Secondly, I think you're spot on with your assessment. The ability to fly should make this a pretty easy encounter. A beefed up Lucian Thrune would definitely help if your party can just fly onto the second floor.
Thanx for the cudos. Maybe, it's not too late for others to get a glimpse.
Maybe, the wording "the ballistae ... are mounted on ingenious turrets that allow them to fire down into those areas, or to rotate and fire down ..." should be interpreted as that the vertical fronts (meaning the crenellation and the part above the crenellation) of the second floor above C1 and C4 are at least so "tight" that flying creatures of Small or larger size should have trouble to get in without Escape Artist checks. Dunno, but I guess, I'll do it that way and pretend that the ballistae are mounted on a rail-system (perhaps like some gun turrets in Star Wars).
As I stated, I run this AP with 5 PCs, so I had to level Lucian a little bit up. I gave him an 2 extra levels cavalier, so that he could lay his manicured hands on the order ability "For the King" and on the feat Impr. Vital Strike. His mount Zailoron was given a magic saddle, so Lucian can use saddle surge 1/day.
Meanwhile I don't know if they're ever going to even get to fight Lucian Thrune. I'm betting that they just bring the Fortress down and then run away and avoid him. But that means I can bring him back in later, during book 4!
OH!
Have him either helping on the bridge or leading the group that gets into the PCs hideout instead of the guy from the CCG (because some thug suddenly leading a group of dottari is such a weird choice that literally makes no sense to me.)I suggest helping on the bridge because it was a cake-walk for my group and 3 APs later they still laugh at how quickly Vannases Trex went down. Having Lucien helping on the bridge would make sense due to military training and would allow you to keep his tactics pretty much the exact same.