| Andre Roy |
I have in mind a character concept/backstory for a Tian character. And I would need help with the class and archetype choice. Paizo or 3rd party material is good.
S/he was raised in a monastery deep in the [X] Mountains. There, 5 styles are taught: Crane, Dragon, Leopard(Panther), Snake and Tiger. There used to be a 6th style, but it last Master died centuries ago and it secret lost.
Every so often someone would seek out the lost tomb where the secret of the style is side to be buried alongside the Master. One day, while seeking a lost goat, the character stumble upon the tomb an entered it. It was a small thing and oddly empty and peaceful. He found the resting place of the master and found old scrolls nearby.
The first part of the scroll hinted on how to gain the base style (if one could figure it out) but the rest was encrypted in an old lost dialect requiring linguistics to decipher).
Being fresh and his mind still malleable, the vharacter eventually figured out the first secret of the lost style, becoming it'seems sole practitioner in centuries...the character is on a quest to decipher the rest of the scroll, learn the lost style and teach it to new recruits.
Obviously a (unchained) monk would be an obvious choice here...my question would be what archetype (if any) would be fitting. And what new style would be good for this mysterious 6th style (Paizo and 3rd party also).
I was also looking at the brawler (any archetype suggestion) or a fighter (Unarmed Fighter) as an alternate class but does anyone have a suggestion class-wise?
| Inlaa |
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A cool style that exists in Paizo material that you could use to good effect...
Firstly, I'd advise digging here. It's got all the official Paizo style feat trees.
If you wanted to go down a cool but EVIL route, be a brawler with two levels of Antipaladin in the mix. Hear me out: Antipaladins make everything susceptible to fear, even things normally IMMUNE to fear (like paladins and undead). The Deadhand Style tree lets you spook enemies for free. You can later inflict temporary negative levels and stuff. But this has synergy with all the Thug archetype, along with the Cornugon Smash and Hurtful feats. If you could somehow squeeze in Shatter Defenses too, this would be a very scary build that basically punches people with Power Attack and makes them run away in terror. I imagine 2 levels of Antipaladin, either 1 or 4 levels of Thug, and then Brawler all the rest of the way.
The Jabbing Style feats look really interesting to me for a brawler, making your character someone that dives in and dances behind his foe to start punching more people. The bonus damage isn't much at first, but it's the Jabbing Dancer feat that REALLY interests me. And if you're focusing down one big bad, Jabbing Master doesn't look too bad.
Yet another idea would be to go with Kraken Style (mixed with another good grappling style) on a brawler and equip yourself with armor spikes (which do damage automatically when you start a grapple) so that you're dealing your armor spike damage + your Wisdom bonus as damage when grappling BEFORE attacks are made. Perhaps the Strangler archetype would work well here. When you get to Kraken Wrack you're suddenly doing Wisdom+4 damage as well as damage from your armor spikes as well as any attacks you make as part of a grapple (which count as sneak attacks because you're a Strangler Brawler)... It looks like fun.
If you'd like to do a non-unarmed build that's still very much about using style feats, maybe consider the Wolf Style feats with Combat Patrol and a reach weapon? You could go with a Fighter or Warpriest (Arsenal Champion specifically) to get lots of bonus feats and make a fun trip-oriented build. Since you're from Tian, a Naginata (1d8 x4, reach, slashing, martial) seems like a cool option, or maybe a hooked lance (1d8 x4 reach, piercing, martial). Get Keen or Improved Critical for that weapon and your crit range isn't bad, either.
I'm sure you can come up with some other really fun ideas by looking at that page. Remember, too, that you can take a level of Master of Many Styles on any build that does NOT use monk or brawler levels so that you can fuse weapon styles. 2 levels of MoMS is actually really good since you get 2 free style feats and +3 to all saves.
| Andre Roy |
A cool style that exists in Paizo material that you could use to good effect...
Firstly, I'd advise digging here. It's got all the official Paizo style feat trees.
Also, to rename Deadhand Style and Jabbing Style to be more appropriate: Oni style and Mongoose Style, perhaps?
That's true and thank you for the list, that will help enormously. I agree that anyexisting style (Paizo or otherwise) that can be used to good effect would be an exellent choice. And I like your idea to rename the style into somethnig more in-line with the others.
One of the few style I was looking at that could work would be the Wyvern Style. It's an armed one and does offer some cool benefit.
The four suggestion presented are pretty nice and give me something ot think about. I had not thought of the warpriest, but I can see it being a possible choice. The Sacred fist could be another good Archetype for this concept.
For Kraken style a Tetori Monk could also be a decent option as it focus around grappling, but without the armour.
Master of Many Style would be a logical pick if I go monk, as the temple teaches 5 Styles already.
Talking about Archetype and monk, if I want to go Unchained monk (which has a lot of benefit), aside from Scaled Fist and perfect Scholar (and some 3rd party sbuilt), are there any other Paizo Archetypes usable by Unchained monks?
Anyone else with odeas or suggestion to offer.
Selvaxri
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Andre Roy wrote:Interesting but sadly Panda Style doesn't exist...unless you can come up with a good substitute.Lots of bull rushes, bull rush feat chain...
some ki throws
DR/slashing or piercing
weapon focus - chopsticks
mushi finger hold, command word activated "Skadoosh"
Panda Style Feat (Style)
Prereqs- Ki pool or Monk 4
Your foes sees your bumbling movement as clumsy and unpracticed discipline, and drops their guard against your counter attacks.
While in this style, you can use the Parry/Riposte deed and use your Ki pool as your Panache.
While use this style, if you were to score a critical on a Riposte, you may opponent's damage die and their strength bonus instead of your own damage.
As an immediate action, if you have atleast 1 ki point in your ki pool, you may spend any number of ki points to get an equal bonus to all saves vs attacks that would cause condition affects and/or ability drain and damage.
Panda Aloofness Feat (Style)
Prereqs- Panda Style, Monk 6 or Ki Pool
You opponent doesn't know how to react towards your bumbling style, unsure whether you attack or feint. You use your unpredictability as a weapon itself.
While using Panda Style, you also gain the benefits of Catch Off Guard and may pick up improvised weapons as a free action without provoking attacks of opportunity while using Flurry of Blows. These weapons count as Monk weapons during the Flurry. [See "Monk of Empty Hand"]
You as well get the benefits of the Ki Stand feat.
During a Riposte, you may instead attempt a Feint maneuver as though you had the Improved Feint feat. You may use your Wisdom modifier in place of your Charisma for the Feint roll. If you already have Improved Feint, you get the benefit of Greater Feint instead.
As long as this character has a ki point left in their pool, they may spent a ki point for a AC Deflection bonus equal to half the ki in thier pool, minimum one. This bonus stacks with any other Deflection bonuses.
Panda Whirlwind Feat
Preregs- Panda Style, Panda Aloofness, Dragon Style, Monk 10 or Ki Pool.
Your unpredictable movements and mastery over using your foe's attacks against themselves makes you veritable dervish on the battlefield. Many call you a drunken master, though you have never dabbled in that disciple.
While using Panda Style, you get the benefits of Deflect Arrow and may even redirect boulders, ballista, and larger projectiles.
In Panda Style, you may choose another Style you know and gain the benefits of that style as well.
While using Parry & Riposte, your opponents roll against your CMD rather than your AC and may attempt Parry against attacks while Flatfooted; during a Riposte, you may attempt a free Bull Rush maneuver as if you have the Improved Bull Rush feat. If you score a critical hit during a Bull Rush maneuver this way, that opponent is knocked prone and takes falling damage as though they fell that distance.
As a Swift action, this character may spend a ki point to get DR/Magic equal to the half the ki in their ki pool, round down- minimum 1.
Mushi Finger Hold Feat
Prereqs: Panda Style, Dragon Style, Improved Grapple, Ki Pool or Monk 8.
When you grapple a foe, that foe may make a Perception vs [Lvl + CMD] check to recognize the hold. If they succeed, they get a +5 circumstance bonus to the associated save.
After you maintain a grapple, you may spend all the ki in your ki pool to deal 3d4 "Awesome" damage per ki spent to the grappled foe. Fortitude save, DC [10+ half level + Wis mod + # of ki spent] for half. This damage ignores all effects that normally would reduce the damage dealt, except for the save.
Abundant Ki Feat
Prereqs- Panda Style, Ki Pool class feature.
You searched for a master to teach you; while many disregarded you, others gave up. Your self-taught amalgamation of styles has become it's own creation.
You calculate your level + relavent modifier to determine your ki pool, rather than half your level. If you already have Extra Ki Pool feat, you gain an additional Ki point.
You may take this feat as a Bonus Feat for any class that has feat restrictions in regards to bonus feats.
I know the Parry Riposte abilities could use some tweaking.
Player: I grapple.
GM: Okay.
P: *grapples* Now make a Perception check.
GM: Why?
P: See if he recognizes the hold.
GM: ... Okay?
P: He recognizes he's in the Mushi Finger hold. Lucky Bastard.
GM: I guess he's going to try to strike at you... ?
P: I parry.
GM: ?!?
P: I maintain the Grapple, and i call out "Skadoosh" while spending all my ki points to deal damage to the enemy. Fort Save +5 for half.
GM: Okay... *rolls*
P: Rolls 8(3d4)
GM: Holy Magic Missile Rain, Batman!
P: Is he dead?
Selvaxri
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Panda Style, Redux- As i should make the style simpler.
Panda Style [Improved Unarmed Strike + Ki Pool class feature, or Monk 4, Dodge]
*Parry & Riposte, Panache = Ki Pool
*Critical Riposte may use opponent's damage die.
*Spend ki toward saves for a round
Panda Aloofness [IUM + Ki Pool/Monk 6, Panda Style, Combat Reflexes]
*Feint or Bull Rush during Riposte
*Catch Off Guard while flurrying
*Ki Stand/Kip Up
*Spend Ki to get Dodge AC bonus
Panda Whirlwind [IUM + Ki Pool/ Monk 8, Panda Style, Panda Aloofness, Combat Reflexes, Dragon Style]
*Parry vs CMD, can parry flatfooted
*Critical Riposte results in Bull Rush Strike
*spend ki for DR #/Magic
| BadBird |
A Monk of the Four Winds is uniquely positioned to use Shaitan Skin by level 9, when it becomes a show-stopper on a high-WIS Monk. Put that and Shaitan Style together, and a level 10 Monk of the Four Winds with 20WIS can, once per round, drop a +3d6+5 acid strike that forces a DC20 Reflex Save against being staggered (enter bonus-feat Medusa's Wrath). You can also use Elemental Fist and Shaitan with a weapon strike, or cross it with another style using Combat Style Master (since you only need to be in Shaitan long enough to strike once).
| BadBird |
I assume you aren't looking at an armed combat style, but I've been thinking about a build that uses Master of Many Styles to cross (among other things) Dragon Style and Ascetic Style for a really strong dual-monk-sword combat style. By level 8, you can incorporate Dragon Style, Dragon Ferocity, Ascetic Style and one other style into a combo that grants +3 to all attack rolls and 1.5xSTR on all sword strikes with two Effortless Lace temple swords or 9-ring broadswords.
I was thinking Shaitan Skin thrown-in by 9 with Combat Style Master tricks, or delaying that a bit to start with some Urban Bloodrager and Extra Rage (bonus strength and the Furious property on two 'Dragon-Blade Style' swords... ouch).
As a theme, it can evolve pretty easily out of mastering unarmed combat - first you learn to perfect the body, then you learn the ancient secrets of making blades into extensions of the body - and maybe channeling primal Ki through Controlled Bloodrage.
| Andre Roy |
The Monk of 4 wind and Monk of the Mantis (usable by unchained monk too) are 2 good ideas too. Thank you
Armed combat style are OK too...they are not as common and might explain why it died out.
I haven't thought about that, but combining the style to a caster class (or do a dip) could be something to look into.
I was considering fighter(unarmed fighter) an a Warpriest(sacred fist) was suggested. A Bloodrager dip or using another caster with a thematic monkish or armed archetype, could be a route to take for a lost art.
| BadBird |
A single level of Monk is enough to get the first (best) flurry attack and WIS AC, so the multiclassing options are pretty limitless. Scaled Fist Monk opens up multiclassing with CHA-based builds as well; Scaled Fist + Sorcerer + Dragon Disciple is pretty cool indeed.
Ironically, a Sacred Fist is actually way better with a weapon in two hands. They lack easy access to Dragon Ferocity and the Monk Unarmed Strike feature, but they can use Crusader's Flurry to wield any deity-weapon they wish, and they can pick up Guided Hand without any multiclassing.
Rather than Unarmed Fighter, I'd consider going Weapon Master with unarmed strike as the chosen weapon if you're looking at Fighter (plus one level or more Unchained Monk). Weapon Master can grab Advanced Weapon Training (the feat) over and over and over again.
Edit: Actually, the more I think of it, the more interesting it sounds to have an Urban Bloodrager (Celestial Blood?) dip on a Master of Many Styles to beef-up strength, and then cross Dragon Style with other stuff, armed or not. Mechanically, it would be pretty intense.
"This was the last, lost knowledge of the master: the Zodiac Blood-Sutra. These secret techniques set fire to the Ki in the blood, as the steps and forms of the many teachings began to flow together like the cycles of Heaven..."
| nate lange RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
What kind of hidden style are you looking for? If you're just looking for a regular monk who punches different I think you've got some good advice already. My suggestion, however, would be to make a magus with the esoteric archetype. The forgotten style was the mystic one and you flavor all your spells and arcane pool/arcana as martial arts techniques (drawing on ki/chi, spirits, taoist alchemy, or whatever as the power source).
| Andre Roy |
What kind of hidden style are you looking for? If you're just looking for a regular monk who punches different I think you've got some good advice already. My suggestion, however, would be to make a magus with the esoteric archetype. The forgotten style was the mystic one and you flavor all your spells and arcane pool/arcana as martial arts techniques (drawing on ki/chi, spirits, taoist alchemy, or whatever as the power source).
To be honest, the initial idea was for a martial style (armed or unarmed) however BadBird's suggestion opened up an Avenue I had not really consider: Magic on particular Arcane magic (such as the bloodrager or your magus) or maybe one of the psychic class...that could be an interesting twist
| nate lange RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
I'm not sure how your damage would scale with the bloodrager (because I think your base punch would stay at 1d3), but there are several ways you could build a really mystic/magical style... as I mentioned, esoteric magus is a solid option; the sacred fist warpriest was nerfed somewhat but could still work... the kineticist class is basically a ______bender from the Aavatar series (and there's at least one infusion geared towards unarmed combat, and the elemental ascetic archetype); or even an enlightened paladin could be an interesting take (if your GM is willing to be flexible on the fluff).
| Andre Roy |
I'm not sure how your damage would scale with the bloodrager (because I think your base punch would stay at 1d3), but there are several ways you could build a really mystic/magical style... as I mentioned, esoteric magus is a solid option; the sacred fist warpriest was nerfed somewhat but could still work... the kineticist class is basically a ______bender from the Aavatar series (and there's at least one infusion geared towards unarmed combat, and the elemental ascetic archetype); or even an enlightened paladin could be an interesting take (if your GM is willing to be flexible on the fluff).
Oh? In what way was the Warpriest (Sacred First) nerfed?
I was looking at the Esoteric Magus, Kinisticist (core and Elemental Ascetic) and the Enlighted Paladin. All could indeed work and the first 2 would be solid choices.
A Kami medium could potentially work, but is not as great a choice I think. The other Occult class, doesn't really fit the backstory.
Another weak possible would be a(n) (unchained) Summoner(Synthesist), but would require a bit more gymnastic to make it work well.
| nate lange RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
Off the top of my head I don't remember exactly all the changes to sacred fist (they changed it a while ago), but I remember it used to have the standard monk's flurry (where your BAB went up to your level before taking the -2 for flurry) and now they just get an extra attack (using their normal BAB for all attacks with -2 to all of them).
| BadBird |
The Sacred Fist ability to use level=BAB in a flurry was removed, because they already have the ability to use Divine Favor and other buffing spells with a swift action. When they got both "full BAB" and the ability to cast huge combat boosts on themselves with swift actions or Blessings they were actually rather over-powered... except only really with a weapon in two hands, and nobody ever seems to think of going Sacred Fist with a weapon.
| BadBird |
The concept I was fiddling with for a Master of Many Style Monk would look something like:
Blood-Sutra Monk
Urban Bloodrager 1/ Ki Mystic Master of Many Styles Monk 8
Dual Talent Human: 15/17STR, 15DEX, 14CON, 10INT, 14/16WIS, 7CHA
Traits: Berserker of the Society, Honored Fist of the Society
1UB. Two-Weapon Fighting / *Celestial Bloodline*
2MS. +Ascetic Style (swords version) <OR> +Boar Style (unarmed version)
3MS. +Elemental Fist / Dragon Style
4MS.
5MS. Extra Rage / *Qinggong: Barkskin*
6MS. *Mystic Insight* / *Qinggong: Scorching Ray*
7MS. Shaitan Skin / +WILDCARD [Dragon Ferocity]
8MS.
9MS. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Either swords version with dual Furious Effortless Lace temple swords or 9-ring broadswords, or unarmed version with a Furious Amulet of Mighty Fists. To activate Improved Two-Weapon Fighting at level 9, you can use a +2DEX Ioun Stone or a Snakeskin Tunic, or you can just use your Controlled Bloodrage to put on +2DEX if you don't have any other way to boost it.
In the grand scheme of things, dual-wielding swords or fists with this stuff is going to be pretty brutal; while Monks and dual-wielders are usually weak on the charge, a Shaitan/Dragon Elemental Fist charge can be doing 2xSTR and a bunch of bonus (acid) on a charging strike. Damage is plenty high without using Power Attack, which means accuracy is very high as well (once that +3 to attack kicks in from Master of Many Styles it's absurdly accurate for TWF).
Amusing side-note: you can use a Spell Storing weapon with the Qinggong Scorching Ray ability...
Ki Mystic on a Monk who doesn't use Ki for extra attacks means you have a ton of Ki to use on little things like... letting yourself and the whole party reroll failed attacks and saving throws with Mystic Insight.
| Andre Roy |
Regarding the Sacred fist, ok, it's a bit of a nerf, but it's a 3/4 BAB so still pretty descent, and as stated, he can still self boost.
I've been looking also along the line of the Magus. I could go full Magus or take a few levels (3 at the most) as an Unchained Monk (Perfect Scholar) than branch out into Magus(Esoteric), Kineticist or whatever.
It would give me the initial training received at the temple (and take my first style as either Crane or Leopard) than the discovery of the new style coming after changing the focus of my stydy.
Another thought I had, that could work would be to use Eldritch Heritage feat tree and tap on Destined/Karmic, Imperious, Oni, Rashasa or shaitan as a complement to the build.
Thank you all, your input is really helping me out.
| nate lange RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
I agree- sacred fist is certainly still viable, it's just not as potent as it used to be. One word of caution on sacred fist and especially esoteric magus- they rely on their caster level/spells and class abilities (like arcane pool) that scale with level, so dipping/multiclassing can be challenging for them.
| Andre Roy |
[...] One word of caution on sacred fist and especially esoteric magus- they rely on their caster level/spells and class abilities (like arcane pool) that scale with level, so dipping/multiclassing can be challenging for them.
I noticed that, that's why I was considering, at the most, 3 levels. For the Esoteric Magus maybe just 1 level as unchained monk for the improved unarmed, flurry of blow and stunning fist plus proficiency in all monk weapons.
| nate lange RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
Esoteric already gets improved unarmed strike with damage as a monk, and with spell combat/spellstrike they sort of already have their own flurry. They can only spellstrike with unarmed strikes so monk weapon proficiencies may be pointless but if your point buy is high enough for a decent Wis it might be worth a 1 level dip for stunning fist and the AC boost.
| BadBird |
For multiclassing with something else, 4 levels of Sacred Fist (or Warpriest) is the magic number - you've only 'lost' one point of BAB, and with Fate's Favored and Magical Knack you've got +3 from Divine Favor (Magical Knack = Caster Level 6). 4 is also when you get Channel, so Crusader's Flurry and/or Guided Hand becomes an option as well, and you get a +1AC. You can cross Sacred Fist 4 with a million different things and profit.
| Andre Roy |
Yeah, multiclassing is not my strong suit, so that's good to known.
It's shame we cannot combine Esoteric Magic wuth Eldritch Scion Magus, a spontaneous caster would make things a bit easier I think.
Now, having never done any Magus, How shouls I spread my built points? I figure Int and Str/Dex should be favored. Con could be good too as I would have low AC, but a good wisdom might not be a bad thing either.
Cory Stafford 29
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I have in mind a character concept/backstory for a Tian character. And I would need help with the class and archetype choice. Paizo or 3rd party material is good.S/he was raised in a monastery deep in the [X] Mountains. There, 5 styles are taught: Crane, Dragon, Leopard(Panther), Snake and Tiger. There used to be a 6th style, but it last Master died centuries ago and it secret lost.
Every so often someone would seek out the lost tomb where the secret of the style is side to be buried alongside the Master. One day, while seeking a lost goat, the character stumble upon the tomb an entered it. It was a small thing and oddly empty and peaceful. He found the resting place of the master and found old scrolls nearby.
The first part of the scroll hinted on how to gain the base style (if one could figure it out) but the rest was encrypted in an old lost dialect requiring linguistics to decipher).
Being fresh and his mind still malleable, the vharacter eventually figured out the first secret of the lost style, becoming it'seems sole practitioner in centuries...the character is on a quest to decipher the rest of the scroll, learn the lost style and teach it to new recruits.
Obviously a (unchained) monk would be an obvious choice here...my question would be what archetype (if any) would be fitting. And what new style would be good for this mysterious 6th style (Paizo and 3rd party also).
I was also looking at the brawler (any archetype suggestion) or a fighter (Unarmed Fighter) as an alternate class but does anyone have a suggestion class-wise?
Scaled disciple.
| BadBird |
Just an amusing note on Master of Many Styles - I was looking at the Dragon Roar feat that nobody uses (usually for fairly good reasons), and I just realized that a level 9 MoMS would be able to spit-out a Dragon Roar with Shaitan Skin. With the right setup, it would be like the damage of a Fireball... only in a 10-foot cone, with part magical bludgeoning damage and part acid damage, forcing a Will save vs. shaken and a Reflex save vs. staggered. That's actually quite the Monk-roar...
| Andre Roy |
Nice. Well the Esoteric Magus looks like a nice build...still need some pointers for stats and good feat as I rarely do caster and when I do it's the core 3 (cleric, bard, wizard).
It's 3rd party, but I stumbled on 2 hybrid classes from The Knotty-Works, The Wushu Master and the Master of the Way...a monk/wizard and monk/cleric combo respectively. Could be another option.
| BadBird |
I would probably go Scaled Fist Unchained Monk + Draconic Sorcerer + Dragon Disciple rather than Esoteric myself, but I'm not really a big Magus fan for assorted reasons. Scaled Fist keeps Monk-ish Flurry of Blows and unarmored AC, and you can customize a Draconic Sorcerer in a million ways (like using Astral Dragon variant to grab some psychic spells, and trading claws for something else with an Archetype or Crossblooded). There's even a psychic spell for shielding yourself with a huge AC bonus as an immediate action.
| Joynt Jezebel |
I have in mind a character concept/backstory for a Tian character. And I would need help with the class and archetype choice. Paizo or 3rd party material is good.
S/he was raised in a monastery deep in the [X] Mountains. There, 5 styles are taught: Crane, Dragon, Leopard(Panther), Snake and Tiger. There used to be a 6th style, but it last Master died centuries ago and it secret lost.
The 5 styles you mention are all real world animal styles of Kung Fu. There are 1 or 2 other styles who's names conform to real Kung Fu animal styles.
These are Mantis Style, which is one of the most popular forms of Kung Fu along with Wing Chun. I have heard of a Monkey Style, but I am not so sure about that. Mantis Style exists alright, I trained in it for 3 1/2 years.