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Ok, one of my players is going to play a paladin, and during the "inspiring phase" of the character build, he found a picture that he likes (to be exact this one and wants to play with a flail.
I'm wondering if there is any way to use a flail in a way that it lives to its martial weapon status. Currently, it's pretty awful for a martial weapon, really. It does the same attack and damage than a simple heavy mace, because it spends his "weapon budget" getting disarm and trip, which are 2 things that are no longer useful at all. Back in the day, those traits allowed you tu use your weapon to disarm or trip, and even gave +2, but you can disarm and trip just fine with a longsword now. I don't think that "you can drop your weapon" is really that good at all, it just transform your action from "free enemy maneuver:trip" to "free enemy maneuver:disarm", which is not particularly interesting, and certainly not worth the loss in critical threat range.
So I was thinking that maybe there are some traits, or feats, or magical abilities for flails that might help him, as I'm not particularly fond of characters being worse just because they like a particular aestetic.
If I don't find anything, maybe I'll use my GM powers and transform Flails into a 20 x3 weapon, or 19+ /x2 (as heavy flails are), or maybe transform the heavy flail into a "bastard sword heavy flail". But I'd like to check first if there is anything, RAW, that can help a flail to become something useful.
I had a post, but the multiple threads went away, and apparently the one I posted in was one of them. To recap what I wanted to say:
Bludgeoning weapons have crap multipliers, and their damage dice isn't really much better in comparison (if at all). If these were to improve, I imagine other guides would recommend them over the existing slashing/piercing counterparts. As of now, most guides only recommend bludgeoning weapons for backups, in the event you're disarmed or are fighting DR/Bludgeoning enemies.
I recommend that they dump the shield and pick up a Heavy Flail. It has the same critical multiplier as a Greatsword, just slightly less damage dice, so it's an appropriate counterpart.
I would've recommended they pick up the Shield Brace feat, but a Heavy Flail isn't considered a Polearm or Spear, but if you want to houserule it to function with his Heavy Flail, then that should be fair as well. (The character they're basing their Paladin off of can normally do so with a passive skill, so I don't see why you can't adhoc the feat to work in that manner for them.)
Ok, one of my players is going to play a paladin, and during the "inspiring phase" of the character build, he found a picture that he likes (to be exact this one and wants to play with a flail.
I'm wondering if there is any way to use a flail in a way that it lives to its martial weapon status. Currently, it's pretty awful for a martial weapon, really. It does the same attack and damage than a simple heavy mace, because it spends his "weapon budget" getting disarm and trip, which are 2 things that are no longer useful at all. Back in the day, those traits allowed you tu use your weapon to disarm or trip, and even gave +2, but you can disarm and trip just fine with a longsword now. I don't think that "you can drop your weapon" is really that good at all, it just transform your action from "free enemy maneuver:trip" to "free enemy maneuver:disarm", which is not particularly interesting, and certainly not worth the loss in critical threat range.
So I was thinking that maybe there are some traits, or feats, or magical abilities for flails that might help him, as I'm not particularly fond of characters being worse just because they like a particular aestetic.
If I don't find anything, maybe I'll use my GM powers and transform Flails into a 20 x3 weapon, or 19+ /x2 (as heavy flails are), or maybe transform the heavy flail into a "bastard sword heavy flail". But I'd like to check first if there is anything, RAW, that can help a flail to become something useful.
He's playing a Paladin. He really doesn't need the gonzo weapon abilities of a fighter to be useful or competitive. Smite damage that automatically passes all DR is nothing to be sneezed with. And the feat that lets you add both STR AND Charisma to intimidate scores is pretty awesome. Maybe the player should be thinking about feats that improve the qualities that are unique to the class instead of worrying about competing with a fighter's feat set. And if he's going divine weapon bond, there's a whole kit of flexible awesome that can be applied to any weapon.
For a Paladin ANY weapon is something useful.
As a front line character disarm can be very helpful, and so can trip.
They are both feat intensive, so there is a downside to it, but because the weapon has those properties, she can also apply any weapon enhancement bonus to those maneuvers.
Not only are they feat-intensive, but they won't work on all enemies. Weaponless enemies (such as monks, or natural weapon creatures), and Huge or larger-sized enemies aren't so common in the early levels (the former is moreso than the latter), but later on, both (even at the same time) become practically stapled to each adventure.
The problem stems from justifying spending 3+ feats on a chain that you won't get to use in most every combat. Compared to feats like Power Attack, Extra Lay On Hands, and other such goodies, investing in Combat Maneuver feats are things that a Paladin both won't be making much use of, but also can't afford without sacrificing other benefits.
There's also the CMB/CMD scaling disparity that happens in the later levels where, if you aren't 100% committed to specializing in that combat maneuver, you won't perform worth a damn (and that's compared to enemies who aren't specialized; coming across one who is in the same manner as you means you're screwed either way).
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@Drahliana Moonrunner Maybe I should have mentioned that he's going to play the (also underpowered, in my opinion) Sacred Shield archetype. He's also going with Bodyguard feat. So he doesn't have Smite Evil, and 2 handed weapons like a Heavy Flail is not an option either.
@yure he can trip and disarm using a longsword as well. There's no mechanic adventage with the disarm and trip traits for weapons, other than you can drop them when you miss by a lot, AFAIK, and in any case, I don't think that feat starved paladins are any good at maneuvers.
@Darksol sorry for your post. Something went wrong with my browser, it wasn't working, then suddenly sent like 12 times the same thread. I started to delete 11 of them, and didn't see your post. Shield brace sounds good enough for me, I'll house rule it for Heavy Flails and call it a day. Heavy Flails are 19+ x2, and do 1d10, which puts them in the same ball park than bastard swords, for the cost of a feat (he was going to take Shield Focus anyway, I think)
They are both feat intensive, so there is a downside to it, but because the weapon has those properties, she can also apply any weapon enhancement bonus to those maneuvers.
Any melee weapon apply the weapon enhancement to trip and disarm.
It's weird that the heavy flail have more threat range than the flail (or the PFsrd have a mistake).
I'd just make it so that weapons with disarm and trip dont provoke AOO when used. That gives like two and a half feats worth of value for a slightly weaker weapon damage wise.
I already use a house rule that maneuvers only provoke if you fail them, to promote combat diversity and a bit more cinematic fights (like bull rushing people from balcony, and such). Flails not provoking at all, even with a miss, could be a possiblity, but it's a minor one, as the rest of the weapons only provoke half the time.
I already use a house rule that maneuvers only provoke if you fail them, to promote combat diversity and a bit more cinematic fights (like bull rushing people from balcony, and such). Flails not provoking at all, even with a miss, could be a possiblity, but it's a minor one, as the rest of the weapons only provoke half the time.
Go full bore then and make trip add +2 to trip attempts. You're now bypassing expertise, improved disarm and improved trip with one weapon.
It's weird that the heavy flail have more threat range than the flail (or the PFsrd have a mistake).
It's because Paizo follows some kind of "budget" for weapons. If a weapon gains something, it lose something else.
A flail is basically a two handed sword, which trades damage (2d6 vs 1d10) for two traits, disarm and trip. Just happens that disarm and trip have been FAQed /errataed into uselessness.
They did not want to make the regular flail a 1d6 one handed weapon (which would put it in short sword territory), so they went with a reduced threat instead. Which means it's a heavy mace, with 2 traits that are no longer any useful.
EDIT; @Ryan That's a possiblity, yes. I thought about reversing the FAQ. Just wanted to check if there's something that take adventage of the flail under the normal rules, before I had to house rule things. Similar to what Shield Brace does for spears, for example, just something for Flails that I'm not aware and might help. For example, other player was trying to build a starknife bard, and was struggling with the MADness and the huge feat tax, and then we found Divine fighting technique for desna, which solved the problem and let him use his preferred look, without being underpowered.
@Drahliana Moonrunner Maybe I should have mentioned that he's going to play the (also underpowered, in my opinion) Sacred Shield archetype. He's also going with Bodyguard feat. So he doesn't have Smite Evil, and 2 handed weapons like a Heavy Flail is not an option either.
Then the problem is your approach. The player who takes that archetype is telling you that he's not looking to be a Damage King but an ultimate Protector. Especially if he's taking Bodyguard on top of that. The weapon is pretty much irrelevant. He should be looking at feats that boost the effectiveness of a shield. such as Shield Focus, Improved Shield Bash, and two weapon-fighting. There might even be some Paladin or channeling specific feats that come into play as well. He's the perfect partner FOR the Damage King. (Or Queen).
It's weird that the heavy flail have more threat range than the flail (or the PFsrd have a mistake).It's because Paizo follows some kind of "budget" for weapons. If a weapon gains something, it lose something else.
A flail is basically a two handed sword, which trades damage (2d6 vs 1d10) for two traits, disarm and trip. Just happens that disarm and trip have been FAQed /errataed into uselessness.
They did not want to make the regular flail a 1d6 one handed weapon (which would put it in short sword territory), so they went with a reduced threat instead. Which means it's a heavy mace, with 2 traits that are no longer any useful.
EDIT; @Ryan That's a possiblity, yes. I thought about reversing the FAQ. Just wanted to check if there's something that take adventage of the flail under the normal rules, before I had to house rule things. Similar to what Shield Brace does for spears, for example, just something for Flails that I'm not aware and might help. For example, other player was trying to build a starknife bard, and was struggling with the MADness and the huge feat tax, and then we found Divine fighting technique for desna, which solved the problem and let him use his preferred look, without being underpowered.
Flails are pretty unloved. I was stunned there wasn't even a "gives your flail reach from an extending chain" weapon enchantment out there.
Then the problem is your approach. The player who takes that archetype is telling you that he's not looking to be a Damage King but an ultimate Protector. Especially if he's taking Bodyguard on top of that. The weapon is pretty much irrelevant. He should be looking at feats that boost the effectiveness of a shield. such as Shield Focus, Improved Shield Bash, and two weapon-fighting. There might even be some Paladin or channeling specific feats that come into play as well. He's the perfect partner FOR the Damage King. (Or Queen).@Drahliana Moonrunner Maybe I should have mentioned that he's going to play the (also underpowered, in my opinion) Sacred Shield archetype. He's also going with Bodyguard feat. So he doesn't have Smite Evil, and 2 handed weapons like a Heavy Flail is not an option either.
I don't think he's going to be a "damage king" just because he chooses a longsword instead of a flail, for example. He'd have the same feats (Shield focus, bodyguard, etc), except his weapon would just suck a little bit less.
Given that he's picking the flail just because he likes the picture, and that he's not asking for an upgrade, I find appropiate that I can reward him with something a little bit less sucky. Doing 1d8+3 with 19+ crit instead of 1d8+3 with 20+ crit is not going to make you "a damage king". Just a sucky damage dealer that it's a little bit less sucky at dealing damage because his GM didn't find it any reasonable that he should be doing less damage just because he took a weapon for flavor, and Paizo forgot to reharsh the weapons' budgets when they nerfed trip/disarm weapon qualities into non-existance. Flails don't have any reason to be martial weapons anymore, because in the current rules, "Disarm" and "Trip" qualities have the same game effect than "Made in Tian" or "really cool looking".
Just give him the 19-20 thread range and ignore the disarm and trip property.
Then the problem is your approach. The player who takes that archetype is telling you that he's not looking to be a Damage King but an ultimate Protector. Especially if he's taking Bodyguard on top of that. The weapon is pretty much irrelevant. He should be looking at feats that boost the effectiveness of a shield. such as Shield Focus, Improved Shield Bash, and two weapon-fighting. There might even be some Paladin or channeling specific feats that come into play as well. He's the perfect partner FOR the Damage King. (Or Queen).@Drahliana Moonrunner Maybe I should have mentioned that he's going to play the (also underpowered, in my opinion) Sacred Shield archetype. He's also going with Bodyguard feat. So he doesn't have Smite Evil, and 2 handed weapons like a Heavy Flail is not an option either.
Reach, give him a Heavy Flail with reach [perhaps an Immediate Action (keep in mind Immediate Actions can be performed as a Swift if desired) 'coil chain' option to quickly yank it in for close quarters.]
That will help expand his Protector Mojo.
There is a magic flail that gives reach. The description is pretty much anything but a paladin's weapon (it's made from a spine), but I guess it could be an option. Changing a description isn't that problematic, and nothing in the mechanic itself is evil.
But what you are suggesting is far better than the Polearm Master similar ability.
The polearm master with shield brace feat would be roughly the equivalent (benefit from a shield, reach, and can shorten it as an inmediate action), way worse (it's a -4 to attack), and requires an specific class and archetype, not just buying a weapon. I don't think that's the equivalent of what he's missing by using a flail instead of a longsword.
I often give them free feats (like Power Attack, Deadly Aim, Combat Reflexes, and others), but will not in this particular campaign. And anyways, it's not the purpose of this thread, which is to find something that could bring the flail back to the status of martial weapon, which currently has only in name because Disarm and Trip "cost" points from the "weapon budget" system, and are basically pointless. My intention is not to transform the entire combat/feat system, and I don't want to make flails superior to the rest of martial weapons, just not an inferior choice.
The Disarm property does give you a +2 to disarm moves. You can also either point your player at the Dirty Fighting feat or give it to people for free so that they can attempt whichever maneuvers when flanking without being punished.
Yeah but trip only changes a failed trip into being disarmed.
The Unhindering Shield feat allows you to wield a weapon in two hands while also using a buckler. So you can wield a heavy flail while still having a shield.
Bludgeoner and Enforcer is a great combo for a Paladin with a blunt weapon.
If the player was willing to be a Dwarf, you could use a Dwarven Dorn-Dergar. I have yet to see an image of one, but from the description I imagine it would look fairly similar to the one in the picture linked from the original post, except that the character would be a Dwarf instead of a Human. Unfortunately, it takes a bunch of feats to make it good, including being able to use it one-handed, and including being able to switch quickly between Reach and non-Reach modes:
Darting Viper (enables Swift Action change between non-Reach and Reach)
Dorn-Dergar Master (enables one-handed use; strangely requires Two-Weapon Fighting, which in this case serves purely as a feat tax, although if you use a Heavy Shield unlike the Tower Shield in the picture linked from the original post, you could get some use out of it by Shield Bashing)
Dwarves have a Stonelord Paladin archetype that replaces most of the Charisma-dependent abilities, including spellcasting, which is replaced with Defensive Stance (as in the Stalwart Defender prestige class, and stacks with it). However, this is not strictly necessary -- even with the Charisma penalty, Dwarves have enough going for them to make decent Paladins. Unfortunately, Stonelord or not, some of this Dwarven awesomeness consists of feats such as Steel Soul, which is hard if you already have to spend 3 feats just to make your Dorn Dergar good (at least 4 if you want to make your Dorn Dergar + Shield combination good -- add Improved Shield Bash, at least, and then Steel Soul gets you to 5, and you might want some other Dwarven feats . . . you see where this is going). If you were going to add any combat maneuvers to this, a 2 level dip in Lore Warden Fighter (gets you free Combat Expertise + 2 other Combat Feats) would be just about mandatory.
Dorn-Dergar as a special uber-flail is a great idea, but... why would Dwarf be necessary? Human Bonus Feat, or Half-Elf Ancestral Arms, or just spending a feat would get it.
Fighting with a Dorn-Dergar flail in one hand and a shield in the other works well if you use Two-Weapon Fighting to make an unarmed strike. It's great flavor, since your unarmed strike can be anything you want thematically. You can even use Dragon Style to make your single offhand strike deal 1.5xSTR. A Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes keeps the cost of enhancing unarmed strike down, and Dual Enhancement is great for a Paladin with more than one weapon.
I had a flail-wielding trick fighter a while back. He was TONS of fun.
In a single turn he would whirlwind trip several enemies, then use all the free AoO's from Greater Trip to disarm them all, sending their weapons flying every which way.
He would recoup the lost damage from those attacks whenever the foes attempted to stand up again (taking advantage of Power Attack at later levels since their AC was lowered), or through allies taking advantage of their free AoO's from his Greater Trip feat.
Most humanoid enemies either surrendered outright, or never lived long enough to get back on their feet again.
With his CMB was so far ahead of the curb, he even did fairly well against many larger, non-humanoid foes.
Tons of fun. Not sure how you'd get it to work on a paladin though.
Incidentally, that picture makes me think Warpriest, not Paladin, since Paladins are gimped by using big shields. Warpriest - especially Human or half-Human - is also absolutely rolling in feats, which makes combat tricks much easier to build on. A Champion of the Faith Warpriest gets a Smite ability as well.
So it's not part of your question but it was the first thing I thought of when I saw the picture.
He won't be able to use LoH in combat. That shield is heavy if not a tower shield which takes up his hand and a weapon takes up a hand leaving no hand available to LoH in combat.
You could have them take all three feats in the Shield Gauntlet Style (lets a gauntlet count as a buckler for feats and abilities). This way they could use Two-handed weapons with a shield bonus and still be able to get hands free for casting and LoH. (Not to mention the extra op attack that doesn't count against your normal number of op attacks)
Incidentally, that picture makes me think Warpriest, not Paladin, since Paladins are gimped by using big shields. Warpriest - especially Human or half-Human - is also absolutely rolling in feats, which makes combat tricks much easier to build on. A Champion of the Faith Warpriest gets a Smite ability as well.
The player is fixated in a sacred shield paladín. We arrived tpbtgat picturecwhile looking for a pic of a shielded paladin. I agree that there are much better choices for a defender archetype with a,shoeld, but he wants to play that archetype (which is subpar, in my opinion, in particular if you mix it with a tower shield)
That's one of the reasons why I was looking for something to help him, even if it was a stealthy buff. I m affraid that he might love more this character in his head than he will when he see how it works at the table, but let's see.
Good suggestions everybody.
So it's not part of your question but it was the first thing I thought of when I saw the picture.
He won't be able to use LoH in combat. That shield is heavy if not a tower shield which takes up his hand and a weapon takes up a hand leaving no hand available to LoH in combat.
I know. He'll spend a bunch of LoH to use the sacred shield ability, and in any case, a weapon cord would work well for him.. Free action drop weapon, Swift action self-heal, move action grab the flail from Weapon cord, standard action attacl or Aid Another.
If he's going to be giving up basically everything that normally buffs a Paladin's combat abilities, he may want to invest in Fate's Favored and Magical Knack so that he can at least reliably run a pretty good Divine Favor in combat.
Personally, if I had to be a Shield Champion I would be figuring out how to run two-weapon Divine Favor combat as effectively as possible to make-up for the fact that wielding a weapon in one hand without Smite is going to be pretty weak jazz. As I mentioned before, two-weapon with flail mainhand and one Dragon Style unarmed strike offhand while holding a heavy shield could work fairly well to put a little funk in his low-power Paladin.
Shield bash doesn't work with the suboptimal tower shield. Fate favored is a great trait, but he is going to take (halfling adopted)-> helpful and I'm allowibg Fools for Friends, a campaign trait from second darkness.
I think I'm going to stop worrying. The player wants to give up any form of doing damage competently, it seems, and a 19+ crit weapon won't change that. So let's see how much he can help the party with 5+ aid another and his sacred shield buff. I suspect some tactical problems will arise, he's expecting the party to run in formatiom, and that's not going to happen all the time. Team members will move to flank, different initiative will mess it, sometimes they'll have to chase ranged enemies, or will fight in different rooms, or some monsters will fly or climb to gain adventage possition, etc. At higher levels he has an aura to protect party members, tho. So let's see.
I've only had 1 encounter with a shield champion paladin for PFS. I was the GM and it was painful to watch. It's a subtier 4-5 and he's lv5. he was basically useless. The level 2-3 bloodrager carried the fights and this paladin didn't really do anything. The fights lasted forever, causing the party to expend far more resources than they should have, the bloodrager was out of rage rounds before the end fight, the cleric was out of channels and only a few spells left. The enemy wizard that they were fighting was down to his lv1 spells.
Dorn-Dergar as a special uber-flail is a great idea, but... why would Dwarf be necessary? Human Bonus Feat, or Half-Elf Ancestral Arms, or just spending a feat would get it.
Fighting with a Dorn-Dergar flail in one hand and a shield in the other works well if you use Two-Weapon Fighting to make an unarmed strike. It's great flavor, since your unarmed strike can be anything you want thematically. You can even use Dragon Style to make your single offhand strike deal 1.5xSTR. A Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes keeps the cost of enhancing unarmed strike down, and Dual Enhancement is great for a Paladin with more than one weapon.
"Just spending a feat" is possible, but getting you the weapon proficiency is ALL that this does, and this hurts even more when Paladin already doesn't get any feats other than your normal character feats (and adding Dragon Style will really put the screws on you, and forget about adding a VMC). Human gets a bonus feat which you could conceivably trade out for 2 exotic weapon proficiencies with the Martial Tradition alternate racial trait(*), but you would be better off spending that otherwise, to get the rest of your build online sooner. At least if you are a Dwarf, you get some stuff in addition to the weapon proficiency for not having the Human bonus feat.
(*)Problem is, this isn't much better, because you would probably need even more feats to make any other exotic weapon good in addition to your Dorn-Dergar, and even the 2 level Lore Warden Fighter dip is starting to look insufficient.