I'm looking for ideas for a Ratfolk character that somehow uses rats as his tools. Dire Rat mount? Swarm of rats attacking? Spying with rats? I haven't played PF in a looong time so am fairly out of touch but the DM is allowing any Paizo material in the game.
I was looking at a rogue as there seem to be some cool feats, but the best ones seem to be beast traits which I doubt he will allow. Like slow terror and scent of fear. lol
Maybe Monk / Druid (or ranger?) with Sharp Claw and Burrow? Druid could maybe get me access to the rats and Monk for some good uses for the Sharp Claws?
Well, thanks for any and all ideas!
Druid. I have an Urban Druid Ratfolk and it is insanely difficult to stay away from going rat-themed with EVERYTHING...
Dire Rat as mount does not work - both Ratfolk and Dire Rats are small creatures.
Does not stop you from training one. Then there are Donkey-Rats, both have INT 2 so can learn a few tricks.
Ooo nature fang druid sounds interesting. I just saw that you can use a tail blade as a natural weapon, plus the feat with the claws and you can start off with three natural attacks (if I'm reading that right). Maybe druid monk? I'll have to read up on if the monk's abilities can be used with natural attacks. This could also be super cool. I don't even know what the alchemist is so I'm going to read up on that as well!
Oooo there's a feat that will let you swarm with a non-ratfolk person. And use swarming feats with them ass well!
Scavenger (investigator archtype from blood of the wild) make your own mechanical rat mount.
I'm really digging the Wild Fang and Slayer ideas.
We currently have a rogue, summoner, monk, and fighter.
The summoner seems to have heals covered though using a wand.
OK, please correct me if I'm wrong.... natural attacks you can use them all in a round, right?
So, if i had the feat for a ratfolk that turns his claws into 1d3 attacks then he can bite, claw, claw, (tail if he has the tail knife that acts as a natural attack) all at level 1? If he was a white haired witch he could hair, claw, claw, bite, tail... am I reading that correctly?
Secondly, if he's a white haired witch he can grapple with his hair (her hair?) and not considered grappled, so next round could bite, claw, claw, tail attack as if not grappled?
My mind is bouncing all over the place, I'm currently looking at witches and possible witch/rogue if possible. White Haired Witch / Veneficus Witch + Rogue?
Ratfolk Rogue / Witch Drug Dealer. This could be so much fun. =D
I want to do a brownfur transmuter and a mouser.
I should mention that I'm starting off at level 3 and we level up at the end of each session instead of worrying about xp. (We only play once a month,)
For a natural attack build, Strength Patron Ley-Line Guardian Witch can do some cool things. They can get claw attacks for free, they can use very strong combat buff spells, and at level 6 they can go Dragon Disciple. While a Ratfolk has to start with -2STR, doing something like Bloodrager 1/ Strength Patron Witch 4/ Dragon Disciple 4/ ??? would end up granting you a +8STR and tons of spells to play with. You could even consider a build that combined wielding a weapon in one hand with making unarmed strikes and claw and tail natural attacks as well - with the kind of buffs you can stack-up, even weak attacks hit pretty hard. Then you can go "Raging Voodoo-Rat Warrior" on your enemies.
Edit: and of course, you can always Enlarge yourself easily to be a full-sized man-rat. Because when it comes to rats, bigger is always better.
Should I avoid the Witch altogether and go Alchemist / (rogue ? Slayer?) for the stacking Sneak Attack damage? I would lose the hair natural attack but I can't see a reason other than that for the Witch. The Alchemist gets me the drug creation plus the archetype vivisectionist gets me increased Sneak Attack damage.
Level 1 Rogue (1)
Weapon Finesse (effects all my natural attacks)
Sharp Claw (Level 1 Feat)
Scurrying Swarmer (We use hero points so this free feat taking Anti-Hero)
+1d6 Sneak Attack
Level 2 Alchemist Visectionist (1)
Throw Anything
Level 3 Rogue (2)
+2d6 Sneak Attack
Evasion
Rogue: Fast Stealth
Level 4 Rogue (3)
Danger Sense +1
Finesse Training: Claws
Feat... ?
Level 5 Alchemist (2)
+3d6 Sneak Attack
Discovery: Bleeding Attack
Poison Resistance +2
Poison Use
I'll have the use of 2 x Claws, 1 x Tailblade.
I would need the feat Sharpteeth to have a bite attack but if I'm reading it right I can take two traits to get a bit attack from adopted orc / tusked. This would get me my 1d3 bite without having to take the feat.
Thus starting off I would get 1d3 bite, 2 x 1d4 Claws, 1d2 Tail. Each of these would be able to have sneak attack damage if I'm standing in the same square with a companion.
Vivisection / Slayer.... here's a question. If I start off 3 levels slayer, that get's me 1d6 sneak attack. Then 1 level Alchemist, would that then make it 2d6 sneak attack right off and continuing like that?
Alchemist states:
At 1st level, a vivisectionist gains the sneak attack ability as a rogue of the same level. If a character already has sneak attack from another class, the levels from the classes that grant sneak attack stack to determine the effective rogue level for the sneak attack’s extra damage dice (so an alchemist 1/rogue 1 has a +1d6 sneak attack like a 2nd-level rogue, an alchemist 2/rogue 1 has a +2d6 sneak attack like a 3rd-level rogue, and so on).
So, from then on out the Alchemist level and Slayer level would be counted together and used on the rogue's chart to determine sneak attack damage?
I'll look into the Leyline Witch. I haven't read that one yet, thanks!
I'll look into the Leyline Witch. I haven't read that one yet, thanks!
The main reason for ley-line (at least here) is that you can go Dragon Disciple, since it's a spontaneous caster. Dragon Disciple means +4 bonus STR and bonus AC as well. Besides that, Strength Patron Witch means that you can cast Divine Favor, which is a huge bonus to attack and damage, and Heroism, which is an all-day sort of bonus to attack and saving throws. Also, you can use Arcane Strike. Put all together, it means something like +6 attack, +6 damage by level 9.
You could be a druid with the Swarm Monger archetype. It's from the Ratfolk section of Blood of the Beast. The Swarm monger gets a familiar instead of an animal companion or domain, chosen from a list of urban animals (rat included). They can transform this familiar into a swarm, so your ratfollk druid would have his own little personal rat swarm.
The sneak attack for slayer and vivisectionist won't stack at all. So I would not mix those classes.
This is very dependent upon whether Sneak Attack is considered a redundant ability. The jury on that is very much out.
OP: It's difficult to say exactly how they interact because the Vivisectionist archetype uses wording to facilitate multiclassing with rogue that assumes that all sneak attack granting classes follow the same progression whereas they do not. There are some who read a clause in hybrid class rules (Slayer is a hybrid class) that states that redundant abilities between hybrid and a parent class do not stack when those two classes multiclass together and in this case since the vivisectionist sort of counts as a rogue that might prevent stacking. Personally I would count the vivisectionist levels you take as rogue levels, determine the sneak attack damage and then directly add the slayer bonus sneak attack damage as it follows a different progression but it's not up to me. The best thing to do is ask your GM how they think these abilities interact as they are the final arbiter in the matter.
The sneak attack for slayer and vivisectionist won't stack at all. So I would not mix those classes.This is very dependent upon whether Sneak Attack is considered a redundant ability. The jury on that is very much out.
OP: It's difficult to say exactly how they interact because the Vivisectionist archetype uses wording to facilitate multiclassing with rogue that assumes that all sneak attack granting classes follow the same progression whereas they do not. There are some who read a clause in hybrid class rules (Slayer is a hybrid class) that states that redundant abilities between hybrid and a parent class do not stack when those two classes multiclass together and in this case since the vivisectionist sort of counts as a rogue that might prevent stacking. Personally I would count the vivisectionist levels you take as rogue levels, determine the sneak attack damage and then directly add the slayer bonus sneak attack damage as it follows a different progression but it's not up to me. The best thing to do is ask your GM how they think these abilities interact as they are the final arbiter in the matter.
I'll be talking with him about it this weekend. However, if that doesn't work, it looks like the Wild Fang druid archetype wouldn't have any issues with working with the Vivisectionist. Though it bab I guess would be worse, it could still be a fun build. As this is more to work with a theme than to min/max the character.
OK, so I think I'm spreading myself too thin here. I'm loving the idea of this ratfolk but I want to be a drug dealer with rats and fight with my natural attacks.
I think I need to focus down on one or the other.
Either some sort of spell caster focusing on the swarm / rat companions which would make me more of a caster and less of a front line hero.
Or I need to focus on the natural attack melee aspect of be more of a slayer or rogue/alchemist.
If I go druid I can focus on that awesome archetype I was shown, the Swarm Monger.
If I do that I would definitely want to incorporate the drug dealer aspect into it. Would that be doable as a single class or should I look at dual classing as a watch or alchemist to add more flavor to brewing poisons and drugs?
I'm like the idea of the melee I already posted, I'll show it again here:
Level 1 Rogue (1)
Weapon Finesse (effects all my natural attacks)
Sharp Claw (Level 1 Feat)
Scurrying Swarmer (We use hero points so this free feat taking Anti-Hero)
+1d6 Sneak Attack
Level 2 Alchemist Visectionist (1)
Throw Anything
Level 3 Rogue (2)
+2d6 Sneak Attack
Evasion
Rogue: Fast Stealth
Level 4 Rogue (3)
Danger Sense +1
Finesse Training: Claws
Feat... ?
Level 5 Alchemist (2)
+3d6 Sneak Attack
Discovery: Bleeding Attack
Poison Resistance +2
Poison Use
I'll have the use of 2 x Claws, 1 x Tailblade.
I would need the feat Sharpteeth to have a bite attack but if I'm reading it right I can take two traits to get a bit attack from adopted orc / tusked. This would get me my 1d3 bite without having to take the feat.
Thus starting off I would get 1d3 bite, 2 x 1d4 Claws, 1d2 Tail. Each of these would be able to have sneak attack damage if I'm standing in the same square with a companion.
From this point, any suggestions? I could really go either way. The idea of a little rat going apeshit with his teeth and claws is amusing, but a rat in the shadows selling drugs could be a ton of fun roleplaying and trying to not get my groupo in trouble selling the drugs (or getting them addicted to them).
Apparently there is another Alchemist archetype that gives sneak attack damage as well....
And this one could be great for making drugs... but would it mesh well with the swarm monger?
Another option would be to go Pack Lord Druid and have two or three dire rats with Boon Companion. You could use the Improved Spell Sharing (NOT Improved Share Spells) Teamwork Feat to share buff spells with them. Crossed with a little bit of Barbarian you could still be pretty dangerous in combat. I'd even say you could do a pack-rage thing, but that costs a ton of rage rounds/day so it might be tough to pull off.
Level 1 Unchained Rogue (Vexing Dodger)
Weapon Finesse
Limb Climber (Replaces Trapfinding)
Sharpclaw (Level 1 Feat)
Scurrying Swarmer (We use hero points so this free feat taking Anti-Hero)
+1d6 Sneak Attack
Level 2 Alchemist (1) (Vivisectionist)
Throw Anything
Level 3 Alchemist (2) (Vivisectionist)
Bleeding Attack (Discovery)
Sharpteeth (Level 3 Feat)
Poison Use
Resist Poison +2
+2d6 Sneak Attack
Level 4 Unchained Rogue (2)
Evasion
Improved Dirty Trick (Vexing Dodger Archetype)
Level 5 Unchained Rogue (3)
Finesse Training: Caws
+3d6 Sneak Attack
This is my idea to level 5. Though I'm thinking that after levvel 5 the rest of my levels will go into alchemist. This is mainly as to not step too much on the toes of the rogue that is already in the party. This character will be a front line fighter using his dexterity and not his strength to fight.
Eventually I would like to get Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists as to let my use my dexterity for damage with my natural attacks (if I read this correctly).
And weapon finesse lets me use my agility for all of my attack rolls since it works with natural attacks. This gives me 4 natural attacks around and as long as I'm standing in the square with my companion, they all get the sneak attack damage bonus.
Am I missing anything here? I'm thinking this is what I'm going to go with for now instead of the caster. I'll save that for next game I think. That will give me a lot more time to do a better job with it since game is this weekend. :D
Now to figure out what to get with the 3k starting gold I get...
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Best I could come up with for your original idea was to combine two Druid Archetypes, which technically you can do. Every level you either get a Rat Familiar or improve a/the rat familiar you already have.
Packlord (UM) and Blight Druid (APG)
Then all you need is a staff of Rat Swarms, Boots of Rodent(Elfin)-kind,
and other assorted Rat themed items that act as other types of Items. ;-)
So I have to have this character ready for tomorrow. I think I'm good with mainy bieng alchemist with a 3 level dip in Unchained Rogue. However, I wanted to ask one last question. Would it be better to do away with the sneak attack damage and make this into more of a monk character? Would that work with the natural attacks I want to do?
I've looked at some of the styles and some of them do seem to work with natural attacks. But how well? Are there archetypes that would do well with this?
Thanks for all the input so far. I'm enjoying the idea of a ratfolk who wants to prove to the bigs that his race is a race that can stand up for themselves. They don't have to hide in the sewers. He wants to perfect his fighting without the use of weapons. The alchemist was good with creating the mutagens to increase stats, but I like the more natural evolution of a monk.