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uh did anybody else see Groetus just now or is it just me
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Pharasma going insane or the Rovagug getting out, now that sounds like an apocalypse scenario to me.A Heaven vs Elysium good guys civil war would be neat if executed well.
Good! Good!
Pharasma going insane or the Rovagug getting out, now that sounds like an apocalypse scenario to me.A Heaven vs Elysium good guys civil war would be neat if executed well.
Good already has less man power in the outer plane than evil if they fought between themselves they'd loose the war for good vs evil.
I don't think that is on there agenda
It's my understanding, from comments by the Creative Director and from various Groetus articles, that he isn't the Doomsday himself, he's just the Doomsday Clock.
I've seen this said before. But the on the other hand supposedly when he descends to the boneyard he's going to do something terrible and part of Pharasma's job is to keep him at bay which doesn't sound very clockish.
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It's my understanding, from comments by the Creative Director and from various Groetus articles, that he isn't the Doomsday himself, he's just the Doomsday Clock.I've seen this said before. But the on the other hand supposedly when he descends to the boneyard he's going to do something terrible and part of Pharasma's job is to keep him at bay which doesn't sound very clockish.
Well then he's a cuckoo Doomsday clock.
Remember, there's Groetus, and/or there's the Moon. We actually know very little about Groetus's true influence, and/or the influence of the Moon.
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It's implied that undeath twists and damages souls—hence why a nonevil mortal comes back as an evil undead. Even putting "evil" aside, stop jacking up Pharasma's stuff!
Necromancers are why we can't have nice things?
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It's implied that undeath twists and damages souls—hence why a nonevil mortal comes back as an evil undead. Even putting "evil" aside, stop jacking up Pharasma's stuff!
I think she's just offend by their smell. I mean, a lich has got to be rancid.
Yeah, Pharasma doesn't say "Undead are Evil"- she doesn't care about evil- it's that undead are anathema to the process she oversees. In some fashion.You have a designated appointment with Lady Pharasma. She does not look kindly on those who keep HER waiting.
Except of the myriad ways to gain immortality, undeath is the only one she takes umbrage to.
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It's my understanding, from comments by the Creative Director and from various Groetus articles, that he isn't the Doomsday himself, he's just the Doomsday Clock.I've seen this said before. But the on the other hand supposedly when he descends to the boneyard he's going to do something terrible and part of Pharasma's job is to keep him at bay which doesn't sound very clockish.
He's a wind up alarm timer. Pharasma just has to keep him wound up to avoid the big clang at the end from happening prematurely.
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The other methods keep your soul in your body as long as possible and continue your life. Undeath diverts and corrupts the soul when it should have been on the way to her. I get more angry at people who send me a hot check than at people who delay paying me a debt.
The other methods keep your soul in your body as long as possible and continue your life. Undeath diverts and corrupts the soul when it should have been on the way to her. I get more angry at people who send me a hot check than at people who delay paying me a debt.
Corrupts how, exactly? This is something people bandy about but it's not written anywhere.
Mindless undead don't even have souls, the corpses rise but the souls rest in peace.
Again I really think it's more to do with urgthoa creating them when she escaped, and Pharasma holds a grudge over that. She wouldn't care about it making people evil she doesn't care about good and evil. I also don't think soles leaving the cycle bothers her she feeds them to groetus and sometimes people become gods who are basically immortal and she doesn't have a problem with them either.
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Corrupts how, exactly? This is something people bandy about but it's not written anywhere.
Well, yeah. If you explain every nitty-gritty detail of magic, it becomes a science. It corrupts them via the same process that it creates undead: Impossible to explain with our science, but the end result is irrefutable. The undead are bitter and evil, and their souls are almost impossible to resurrect once thus corrupted.
Again I really think it's more to do with urgthoa creating them when she escaped, and Pharasma holds a grudge over that. She wouldn't care about it making people evil she doesn't care about good and evil. I also don't think soles leaving the cycle bothers her she feeds them to groetus and sometimes people become gods who are basically immortal and she doesn't have a problem with them either.
It's not about good and evil, it's about vandalism. The souls are her charge. Necromancy takes those souls, bangs them up real bad, then eventually sends them back. Urgathoa is like that roommate who keeps stealing your DVDs and returning them scratched up.
Corrupts how, exactly? This is something people bandy about but it's not written anywhere.Well, yeah. If you explain every nitty-gritty detail of magic, it becomes a science. It corrupts them via the same process that it creates undead: Impossible to explain with our science, but the end result is irrefutable. The undead are bitter and evil, and their souls are almost impossible to resurrect once thus corrupted.
Except undead can change their alignment.
The other methods keep your soul in your body as long as possible and continue your life. Undeath diverts and corrupts the soul when it should have been on the way to her. I get more angry at people who send me a hot check than at people who delay paying me a debt.Corrupts how, exactly? This is something people bandy about but it's not written anywhere.
Let me offer some Merriam-Webster definitions of "corrupt" that apply to undead vs. the living:
1. to change from good to bad in morals, manners, or actions
2. to alter from the original or correct form or version
3. to become tainted or rotten
4. to become morally debased
When a soul dies it's supposed to go to Pharasma and be judged for its life. It's not supposed to return, evil despite what its alignment was in life, to continue further actions that may weigh on its ultimate destination once it finally is judged but that are automatically slanted toward evil by the nature of its existence and separate from the natural plan of mortal life. That is to say, the natural process has been corrupted.
Corrupts how, exactly? This is something people bandy about but it's not written anywhere.Well, yeah. If you explain every nitty-gritty detail of magic, it becomes a science. It corrupts them via the same process that it creates undead: Impossible to explain with our science, but the end result is irrefutable. The undead are bitter and evil, and their souls are almost impossible to resurrect once thus corrupted.Except undead can change their alignment.
If I said Milani gets really mad at mind control because it subverts freedom, would you consider "Except Dominate Person can be further resisted upon receiving orders strongly against your nature" as a reason why she shouldn't consider it a big deal?
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If I said Milani gets really mad at mind control because it subverts freedom, would you consider "Except Dominate Person can be further resisted upon receiving orders strongly against your nature" as a reason why she shouldn't consider it a big deal?Corrupts how, exactly? This is something people bandy about but it's not written anywhere.Well, yeah. If you explain every nitty-gritty detail of magic, it becomes a science. It corrupts them via the same process that it creates undead: Impossible to explain with our science, but the end result is irrefutable. The undead are bitter and evil, and their souls are almost impossible to resurrect once thus corrupted.Except undead can change their alignment.
Or maybe it would be more in line to simply give every dominate-like (but not charm-like) spell the Evil-descriptor, as it so clearly subverts or outright overturns the free will (and thereby the freedom) of any person/creature targeted.
Corrupts how, exactly? This is something people bandy about but it's not written anywhere.Well, yeah. If you explain every nitty-gritty detail of magic, it becomes a science. It corrupts them via the same process that it creates undead: Impossible to explain with our science, but the end result is irrefutable. The undead are bitter and evil, and their souls are almost impossible to resurrect once thus corrupted.Except undead can change their alignment.
So they aren't permenantly corrupted doesn't mean they weren't to begin with. A dude kills someone, but they're resurrected doesn't mean he wasn't a murderer and they didn't die.
Or maybe it would be more in line to simply give every dominate-like (but not charm-like) spell the Evil-descriptor, as it so clearly subverts or outright overturns the free will (and thereby the freedom) of any person/creature targeted.If I said Milani gets really mad at mind control because it subverts freedom, would you consider "Except Dominate Person can be further resisted upon receiving orders strongly against your nature" as a reason why she shouldn't consider it a big deal?Corrupts how, exactly? This is something people bandy about but it's not written anywhere.Well, yeah. If you explain every nitty-gritty detail of magic, it becomes a science. It corrupts them via the same process that it creates undead: Impossible to explain with our science, but the end result is irrefutable. The undead are bitter and evil, and their souls are almost impossible to resurrect once thus corrupted.Except undead can change their alignment.
this isn't a thread about the alignment of mind controlling effects, make one if you like might be interesting
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this isn't a thread about the alignment of mind controlling effects, make one if you like might be interestingOr maybe it would be more in line to simply give every dominate-like (but not charm-like) spell the Evil-descriptor, as it so clearly subverts or outright overturns the free will (and thereby the freedom) of any person/creature targeted.If I said Milani gets really mad at mind control because it subverts freedom, would you consider "Except Dominate Person can be further resisted upon receiving orders strongly against your nature" as a reason why she shouldn't consider it a big deal?Corrupts how, exactly? This is something people bandy about but it's not written anywhere.Well, yeah. If you explain every nitty-gritty detail of magic, it becomes a science. It corrupts them via the same process that it creates undead: Impossible to explain with our science, but the end result is irrefutable. The undead are bitter and evil, and their souls are almost impossible to resurrect once thus corrupted.Except undead can change their alignment.
I know...sorry for further derailment.
Any gods rub you the wrong way?
Any gods rub you the wrong way?
...
Zepar?
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Zon-Kuthon rubs many people the wrong way. But they're okay with it.
Should I be sorry?
He isn't.
He will be if calistira gets wind of it :P
Zon-Kuthon rubs many people the wrong way. But they're okay with it.
Should I be sorry?
I'm not sure that consent is a thing that Not-Pinhead cares about. Or believes in for that matter given his church's whole "all pain is deserved" motto.
Also, if you think that's something to be sorry about I commend you for being a much better human being that I.
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I'm more talking about his worshipers, but it was a s%!#ty joke to begin with. :P
There are a lot of deities and demi-gods that I´m not really a fan of, but luckily they just seem to not show up every time I run a PF campaign.
Generally if I, or if others, don´t like something about the cosmology/spells/whatever, I simply change it to something that everyone in the campaign can get behind. In fact I don´t really think that I´ve played a PF game that wasn´t heavily modified in a couple of years now...
But if I have to mention a divine being that I find a bit too much on the nose it would have to be Folca. I mean seriously, all he needs it some kind of magical carriage, made of thin metal panels, with blacked-out windows...for it to reach full tastelessness...
I'm more talking about his worshipers, but it was a s~*$ty joke to begin with. :P
It wasn't that bad...
At least for me but I'm a sicko so YMMV.
Moving on, which god is the most offensive to people. I'm sure Naderi, Cayden and the rape demigods (which their are all alot of in Golarion for some reason) are up there but Zon-Kuthon makes my skin crawl with all the body modification and pain fetishs. The guy is pure nightmare fuel.
I love Zon-Kuthon because I am enthralled by the mystery of what happened to him but I can see what some people might find gross about him.
When I actually think about interacting with things in the real world I don't like dirt and rot and festering things, so I think Urgothoa would win the skin crawl award for me, but I don't hate her for it.
I hate Zyphus for being just frankly stupid with how his worshipers work or how ridiculously unnecessary his domain is that he thinks he could take over all of death. Just super irritating to me lol.
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Abadar, Iomedae, Pharasma, Zon-Kuthon, Desna, Urgathoa, & Sarenrae all confirmed for Starfinder, so yay/not yay, depending on your point of view.
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I love Zon-Kuthon because I am enthralled by the mystery of what happened to him but I can see what some people might find gross about him.
Me too, but I do wish they'd just admit that the Dominion of the Black was the ones behind his fall. It's so obvious, right.
When I actually think about interacting with things in the real world I don't like dirt and rot and festering things, so I think Urgothoa would win the skin crawl award for me, but I don't hate her for it.
Yeah, the possible necrophilia is pretty awful, but still love her for her debuachery and big f!@& you to Pharasma.
I hate Zyphus for being just frankly stupid with how his worshipers work or how ridiculously unnecessary his domain is that he thinks he could take over all of death. Just super irritating to me lol.
To each their own, but love to think of this guy as the god of trolling and lolz.
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Yeah, I dislike Zyphus's worshipers' rationale. If you deliberately engineer the "accidents", they're not accidents. Lampshading the stupidity doesn't make it any less stupid. What an inane premise.
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Abadar, Iomedae, Pharasma, Zon-Kuthon, Desna, Urgathoa, & Sarenrae all confirmed for Starfinder, so yay/not yay, depending on your point of view.
I can't wait for the flood of Iomedaean Space Marine PCs.
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Abadar, Iomedae, Pharasma, Zon-Kuthon, Desna, Urgathoa, & Sarenrae all confirmed for Starfinder, so yay/not yay, depending on your point of view.
You know it b+%!*es!!
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I started making a list of deities I liked and disliked, and pretty much all of them have a certain hokeyness about them. I like most of them, but I have to say most of them aren't really all that exciting. The big 20:
- Abadar has a decent range of areas of concern, but I haven't seen anything involving him that has wowed me yet. In fact, that could be said of most deities, I think.
- Asmodeus is a bit standard, done everywhere. It's a necessary evil, I think, as it's a popular trope.
- Calistria is a bit weird in her areas of concern that don't really mix well together. Elves, bugs, revenge and sex aren't really things I associate with each other.
- Cayden is a fun deity, but I've seen lots of worshipers just be drunken fools.
- Desna is popular, but I think more for her domains than her actual profile.
- Erastil is a bit stodgy, as most lawful deities tend to be.
- Gorum is the obligatory smashy/fighter deity. I like his writeup in Inner Sea Gods, but in practice it's just "I wanna punch stuff."
- Gozreh is my first love, but I have to agree that most true neutral deities just are a bit bland. Nature/Hippie deities are hard to spice up. Gozreh can be a bit of a jerk if you play up his destructive nature, but most of the time it's just the obligatory Druid deity.
- Iomedae is the standard Paladin deity, and I've seen enough of them by now.
- Irori is bland in his self-perfection. Obligatory Monk-deity, otherwise not really used.
- Lamashtu... Evil deities just aren't my thing, and I haven't really seen enough of them to form a proper opinion. Goddess of monsters seems interesting, though.
- Nethys has an interesting angle, but for most players it boils down to "ohh, it's magic, Nethys must be pleased!"
- Norgorber... I don't know much about him.
- Pharasma is again a kinda boring deity. Goddess of life and death is pretty interesting, but I haven't seen anything that makes her stand out for me.
- Rovagug doesn't really makes sense to me. I get Gorum as a deity of war, but a deity of the end of the world and destruction just doesn't seem feasible.
- Sarenrae is just a different spin on the Iomedae archetype, I find. Iomedae dislikes demons/devils, Sarenrae dislikes undead.
- Shelyn seems interesting. I'm a bit bothered by the fact that all Bards worship her, but other than that you can do some interesting things with her domains/portfolio.
- Torag is just the bog-standard Dwarven deity. If you're a Dwarf, you probably worship him. Boring.
- Urgathoa's domains and portfolio just don't make sense to me, from a good-aligned society's point of view.
- Zon-Kuthon is pretty much the same as Urgathoa, though I like Nidal's involvement with him.
Maybe I should rephrase now that I've gone through them all. It's mostly that I dislike most players's take on deities. It's hard to be original, but mostly it comes down to bad stereotypes, while fantasy RPGs are made for breaking those stereotypes. You can think of anything you want for your character, and still you end up with a Wizard worshiping Nethys because his domain contains the word "magic." You can just as easily make a Wizard who worships Asmodeus who learns new magic through contracts, for instance. Breaking that mold also immediately gives a new spin to your character.
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Nethys is a sticky one - He doesn't really bring a philosophy with him. What is to worship him, exactly? Do I need to wear a pointy hat and blue robes? Is he a "you should be a wizard"-god? "I worship Nethys because I'm an arcane spell caster"? How is he more magical than the rest of the gods? He's also cannibalized by Irori as the deity of knowledge.
I think this is my biggest gripe with the Pathfinder deities. Nethys should be full of role playing opportunity. I'd love to see two very distinct and different philosophies about magic in his church(s). A holy war where both sides worship the same god. one believes magic makes you better than everyone else, the other believes that having magic means you have a duty to serve others.
Each aspect could have different alignments. CN and LN. You could have paladin and antipaladin of nethys. In rustic areas the differences could lead to all out war where in more cosmopolitan cities both philosophies coexist in a tension filled church filled with political intrigue.
Even in the individual sides you have awesome tension between the CG wizard who uses his magic to try to free slaves, vs the CE who binds devils and angels alike to grow his personal power, etc..
And what if the whole nex vs geb war wasn't 2 mighty wizards but avatars of nethys playing out an internal struggle writ large.
I think nethys should get a lot more love it's a great concept that needs fleshed out more.
Abadar, Iomedae, Pharasma, Zon-Kuthon, Desna, Urgathoa, & Sarenrae all confirmed for Starfinder, so yay/not yay, depending on your point of view.I can't wait for the flood of Iomedaean Space Marine PCs.
Abadar, Iomedae, Pharasma, Zon-Kuthon, Desna, Urgathoa, & Sarenrae all confirmed for Starfinder, so yay/not yay, depending on your point of view.
You know it b&%%!es!!
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Nethys is a sticky one - He doesn't really bring a philosophy with him. What is to worship him, exactly? Do I need to wear a pointy hat and blue robes? Is he a "you should be a wizard"-god? "I worship Nethys because I'm an arcane spell caster"? How is he more magical than the rest of the gods? He's also cannibalized by Irori as the deity of knowledge.
I think this is my biggest gripe with the Pathfinder deities. Nethys should be full of role playing opportunity. I'd love to see two very distinct and different philosophies about magic in his church(s). A holy war where both sides worship the same god. one believes magic makes you better than everyone else, the other believes that having magic means you have a duty to serve others.
Each aspect could have different alignments. CN and LN. You could have paladin and antipaladin of nethys. In rustic areas the differences could lead to all out war where in more cosmopolitan cities both philosophies coexist in a tension filled church filled with political intrigue.
Even in the individual sides you have awesome tension between the CG wizard who uses his magic to try to free slaves, vs the CE who binds devils and angels alike to grow his personal power, etc..
And what if the whole nex vs geb war wasn't 2 mighty wizards but avatars of nethys playing out an internal struggle writ large.
I think nethys should get a lot more love it's a great concept that needs fleshed out more.
Thinking about this some more I think this could make an awesome "choose your own adventure" type AP. You play through while making decisions about which sect to support and you get completely different reactions/ rewards etc depending on the choices. The final book being 2 books one for each sect winning the day. It'd have great replay ability.
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Speaking as a Homestuck fan, Nethys is such a Sollux expy, guys. ;P
Speaking as a Homestuck fan, Nethys is such a Sollux expy, guys. ;P
By the gods someone else noticed this! Nethys be praised!
Slightly related but did you ever think Karkat would be a great cleric of Ragathiel? Just seems right up his alley.
Eight guess who I think Vriska would pray to.
Any gods rub you the wrong way?
Ahriman
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I wonder if Groetus has been slightly misunderstood, and he isn't the one who brings about the End Times, but is needed to do some dirty work when the End Times occur, and Pharasma has to keep feeding him so he doesn't crash into the Boneyard before the End Times occur?