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As the title. What if there were a faith that extolled the virtues of 5 (give or take) chaotic deities.
What 5 deities would be most appropriate (or at least which 5 would you personally choose)?
What unifying beliefs would such a faith possess?
How might such a faith differ in interpretation of their five patrons.
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Which deities the cult reveres would depend on what the underlying theme it is focusing on.
For a general "Freedom" cult Cayden Cailean, Desna, and Milani seem like a good starting point. Probably add Calistria in there as well.
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I think such a faith's unifying beliefs would at its core be freedom, individuality and self determination. The triumph of personal strength against all other odds.
For my five I'd vote Cayden, Desna, maybe Gorum or Calistra or Besmara or Milani. Not entirely sure on the back half there.
The Godclaw runs with the odd notion of worshipping both Evil and Good deities at the same time, but I'm finding it a lot harder to put a neutral spin on any of the major CE deities. Both Rovagug and Lamashtu kind of go off the deep end, as well as most of the major demon lords. Maybe Pazuzu?
Though actually given the chaotic nature of the faith maybe not everyone can agree on which gods belong in the Pantheon and which don't.
Like the Godclaw they'd probably downplay the more good or evil traits of the deity and some of their specific principles to instead elevate their position as champions of strength and freedom.
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Desna and Calistria are fairly likely inclusions if it's in the Inner Sea. Milani, Cayden Cailean are two other likely inclusions. As for the demon lords... I think they're mostly focused on evil as a goal with chaos as their method, meaning that they wouldn't fit in as well as Asmodeus fits in with the Godclaw.
I'd say the general focus would be on freedom, much like the Godclaw pushes for stability.
Personally, I'd pick Ashava, Immonhiel, Keltheald, Kofusachi, Thisamet, Milani, Hembad, Pulura, and Yuelral. You might notice that these are all Chaotic Good deities, since I am obviously extremely biased in this regard. :P (Though I'd also include a bunch of NG deities too, like Mazludeh, Shelyn, and Sarenrae)
Anyway, there are thousands of ways you could construct such a group since, even so far, there are over a hundred deities/"demigods" with a chaotic alignment.
The biggest differences would probably come down to "acceptable means". "We want people to be free, but what's acceptable/preferable as a way of making such things happen?" Is it best to inspire people and encourage them to break free on their own? Assassinate those who are holding people away from freedom and letting the dice fall where they may? Taking down the worst defiers of freedom as a lesson to everyone else?
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I vaguely feel like a chaotic godclaw organization is practically a contradiction.
The godclaw is a large organization that tries to reconcile and make something of a unified creed from the teachings of some major lawful deities. In many ways, the act itself is inherently lawful- the attempt to bring many different contradicting creeds into a unified whole, the desire to gather those with a respect for the law as a concept and less based upon immediate interests, and it uses gods that generally have at least some mutual respect since they are the type that likes to get along to make something greater.
In comparison, chaos not play well with such an attempt for varying reasons- either it is counter to the chaotic alignment, or it is unnecessary.
-Building a large organization based upon an ideal. Ehhhhhhh..... that always seems shaky. You might see alliances based upon shared interests (such as barbarian tribes joining together to fight against a movement by a large neighboring kingdom), but this 'building it for its own sake' seems... not very chaotic.
-the idea that conflicting religions HAVE to work together just becuase they have a few vaguely similar ideals. You might be able to rope chaotic good in with that (with some robin hood esque goal), but you couldn't even get CG to play nice if you bring in CE.
I mean... a Chaotic Good individual not cutting down a Chaotic Evil demon worshipper when they feel like it? WHY? The only reason not to do that is because there is some important rule.. and following some silly rule instead of following your own beliefs? ...sounds lawful to me. So this constrains any chaotic copy in what alignments it can work with- an chaotic organization based off of vague general beliefs would be hard pressed to prevent infighting if the alignment spectrum goes too far. So you may be restricted to CG and CN only.
-Chaotic aligned religions have less need for this unifying organization. While I noted the "CG Hero vs. CE villain" as the extreme, chaotic groups would be less inclined to mess with eachother for their beliefs when they are not in direct opposition. The essence of chaotic is 'freedom' and 'live and let live'.
Lawful religions need this big unifying organization- their religion have strict tenants, and those might contradict. But because they are so devoted to rules, they are not going to abide by outside groups breaking the rules their own group follows, as well as a need for accommodation by others for their own group's beliefs. So, not going to get in depth with 'real world' examples, but lets look at kosher diets. Jewish individuals have strict dietary restrictions, and as such they would need to have facilities and products that follow those rules. Thus the grocery store is compelled to have kosher stuff. But chaos? They are more likely to just brush it off as "well don't shop here if you don't like it" or "I won't shop here if I don't like it". Chaotic individuals do not feel as compelled to force a shared space. This is the difference between "you need to have kosher stuff because what are we going to do?" and "fine, I'll just start my own kosher store and we will have a great time without you".
So, summary:
-chaos is hard to make large organizations of conflicting beliefs, since they just don't tend to go that way
-they are much more likely to face internal conflict with directly opposing views
-they are less likely to need the organization to smooth over indirect conflicts since everyone goes off to do their own thing.
-It is easier if you have a binding shared political/ economic/ security interest to draw them together. They won't bend to baseless rules, but they might bend to their own wallets or safety.
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For what it's worth, what bothers me about the God Claw is the inclusion of Irori. Aside from being the default patron of Monks, there's really not much Lawful about Him. His religion practices tolerance and pluralism, revolves around individual achievement and is pretty much silent on matters of society, and His (thus far) unique road to godhood is, when you think about it, incredibly audacious and irreverent. "I found a way for a mortal to become a god entirely under my own power, and oh yeah, I totally think I'm better than the folks who became gods by using that Starstone that Aroden gave them!"
I think a chaos-aligned pantheon similar to the Godclaw could very easily come about. It'd probably require a bunch of chaotic-aligned individuals living and working together for an extended period of time, but the trust and admiration from each other's abilities could very readily lead to a blending of styles, focus, and worship. It would probably have a much wider set of deities that people worship and with a greater difference in focus for those followers, but I think it could happen and would be interesting.
The evil-aligned deities would be easiest to get involved if those worshipping them were mostly moderates (CN and light-CE, not dedicated "burn the world/anyone who annoys me" types) who focus on their mutual goal.
Maybe some Gorumites would sign up with such a group if someone tried to limit them, with restrictions on mercenaries or some such.
But really the membership of any such group depends on how and where it comes about more than the deities' alignments. If it exists because of a bunch of theologically interested people making connections that's quite different from a group who merged during a siege, and either would be different from a group that formed as a result of a miracle attributed to many gods.
Edit: and actually separate cults is a bit of an anomaly in historical polytheism. Most people in such societies would offer some worship to a variety of deities, even if they were members of a specific cult. Judaism and Christianity being set against such things made them stand out in the Roman empire compared to various mystery cults.
I think such a faith's unifying beliefs would at its core be freedom, individuality and self determination. The triumph of personal strength against all other odds.
For my five I'd vote Cayden, Desna, maybe Gorum or Calistra or Besmara or Milani. Not entirely sure on the back half there.
The Godclaw runs with the odd notion of worshipping both Evil and Good deities at the same time, but I'm finding it a lot harder to put a neutral spin on any of the major CE deities. Both Rovagug and Lamashtu kind of go off the deep end, as well as most of the major demon lords. Maybe Pazuzu?
Though actually given the chaotic nature of the faith maybe not everyone can agree on which gods belong in the Pantheon and which don't.
Like the Godclaw they'd probably downplay the more good or evil traits of the deity and some of their specific principles to instead elevate their position as champions of strength and freedom.
If one had to go with a demon lord as one of them, I honestly think that Nocticula makes the most sense given that she is also worshipped as a patron of outcasts, artists, and the glories of midnight.
Within the god claw we have 2 LG deities, 2 LN deities, and 1 LE deity. In turn, a chaotic equivalent should have a similar distribution. Also, among the god claw there is some overlap between patrons, which does help unify matters, so each should likely overlap in some way with others, or we want 5 vastly different deities.
Personally I think i'd go with;
Cayden Cailean
Calistria
Desna
Nocticula
And.. one other. Maybe throw in Noct's brother for a more love/lust centric pantheon? Groetus for an element of; Enjoy the pleasures of life and express yourself, because one day you won't be able to? Gorum adds a good war deity (though not Good) and we could say overlaps a little with Calistria. Nyarlathotep could be added for his plurality, but worshipping outer gods gets tricky, and I think one of Desna's servants at least would vastly disapprove. Hastur adds an element of decadence, but again, outer god stuff. I love Sifkesh, but I have no idea how one would roll her in.
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I give you the Anarchist's Godclaw.
Gorum to arm us and make us strong.
Besmara show us how to take what we need.
Milani to take down those artificially empowered scum on top.
Groetus to remind us not to worry to much about tomorrow.
Ghlaunder to suck we can from the bloated corpse of all we have overthrown.
So be it!
Instead of organization, I would see "chaotic godclaw" as movement inspired by one man who has become to did the "godclaw philopsyphy" on himself.
His real power becomes the fact that his ideas resonate among the people and people emulate him, which gives birth to the movement.
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I'd been thinking about something before, a sort answer of the various Chaotic crusaders in the Worldwound against lawful busybody types. I went with the Fellowship of the Sword.
Since we're doing 'opposites', let's aim for two good, two neutral and one evil chaotic faith.
Cayden seems like a good "leader" faith; they're the popular guys getting everyone else to come along.
Desna is the other obvious good choice. Providing scouting, logistical backup and making travel easier for everyone.
Gorum is always there for a big fight.
Calistria gives the sneaky vicious counterpart to Gorum's more straightforward tactics; these are the reserves falling on the enemy's flanks, archers, wasp swarms and so forth, generally disrupting the enemy.
Now the trick is finding a good Chaotic Evil participant.
- Thremyr - as a patron of frost giants, the Worldwound is sort of in his geographical area.
- Urazra - another giant deity, just about a hundred years active. Just like the worldwound. The battle portfolio overlaps a bit much with Gorum though.
- Thamir Gixx - hard to justify his involvement, but would add an interesting angle to it
- Nyarlathotep or Hastur - why they get involved who knows, but these are the most personanable old golds.
- A disgruntled demon lord - not all demon lords profit from the Worldwound, some might want to hinder their rivals by aiding the crusades.
- Groetus - not actually evil but they do want to see the apocalypse up close.
- Lady Nyanbo - her holy symbol is a flaming rift in the earth, and she's a major deity in Tian Xia, which via the Path of Aganhei isn't actually that distant from the Worldwound. And we know almost nothing about her..
- Dahak, Ydersius, Apep - hard to come up with a motive but they're nontrivial CE deities.
- Ghlaunder, Camasotz - these guys barely exist
- Urgathoa - too kinky for straight-laced Lawful types, but these guys like the world to continue existing so they can party in it forever. So that means defending it. They bring a measure of non-Chaotic planning to the party, with sometimes immortal patience, undead reserves, fell necromancy, not too many scruples and surprisingly strong ties among the nobility. They can even bond with the Caydenites over a strong drink, as long as they remember which jokes aren't appreciated.
It's really not easy to come up with a good CE participant in this team. I think Thremyr as a sort of glacier-like implacable force might be most interesting actually. Could also bring in an Irriseni element to the undertaking. Or Thamir Gixx to add a halfling psycho hero angle to it. I think Urgathoa is probably the best choice because she's not hopelessly obscure and has one of the best motives.
So why not Milani? She's been getting a lot of press lately. But her agenda is opposing tyranny, she should be active in Cheliax and Nidal, fostering revolution against regimes.
An interesting cult, though strongly leaning to Evil as well as Chaos, would be The Swarm (or maybe The Hive).
Deskari (locusts)
Calistria (wasps)
Ghlaunder (mosquitos)
Izyagna (ants)
Kitumu (fireflies)
Mazmezz (spiders)
Since Calistria is also a goddess of vengeance, and explicitly has antipaladins, she fits right in despite not being evil herself.
Or how about The Pyre..
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This is an interesting question. Because for a Pantheon to be viable they have to share more than just an alignment, they has to be an over arching idea. There a lots of Lawful Gods out there, but the 5 Lawful Gods for the God Claw were chosen not just because they are Lawful, but because a common ground was found between all five of the gods.
So that brings up the question, what Chaotic Gods to look at? Granted there are lots of other minor gods and powerful outsiders we could look at, but if a Chaotic Pantheon were to develop it would have to be made up of the more popular gods. So going off all of the Major Gods and the most famous of the minor gods, this is what I came up with.
Besmara(CN): Pirates/Sailors
-Sail around the world and do what you want, the system be damned
Calistria(CN): Vengeance/Passion
-Do what you want to who ever you want
Cayden Cailean(CG): Freedom
-Literally THE god of Freedom
Desna(GC): Travel
-Literally THE God of Travel
Milani(CG): Revolution
-Tear down the system
Notice I did not add any Chaotic Evil Gods because the gods that are CE are all crazy. As in 'lets kill a bunch of people for just because we can' crazy.
Saying that, I present to you
The Sacred Order of F@#$ the System
As Gods of Chaos the followers of these gods all have followers who are if not at home, than comfortable traveling, and most of these Gods enjoy being an active thorn in the side to anyone telling them or anyone what to do. Some one has wronged you, Calistria demands you take take revenge. Oh, it was the Government that wronged you, Milani says to tear down them down. Does this Goverment keeps slaves, than Cayden Cailean says that you must free them, and Besmara says to plunder anything else of value because you can. Just remember to offer a final Prayer to Desna as you travel about the world, enacting Vengeance, bringing Freedom, starting Revolutions, and Plundering what you can.
A general 'fight against the system' till seems rather nebulous. I think you might be better off with a stricter focus for shared goals.
For example, you might get Desna and Besmara together as a 'Free the
Seas' thing, allowing free travel without restraint or blockades.
You could then bring in Milani if this organization was built as a reaction to a particular dominating threat (for example, Cheliax deciding to get more into this whole 'colonialism' thing). Cayden could also be dragged in for a general 'sea adventurer' thing with freedom.
Calistria would be a bit tenuous. She can play well with Milani (revolution as revenge kind of thing), but it would take a different focus. Maybe separate an anti slave trade organization, which could also bring in Cayden.
Cayden is fairly easy to get into a lot of chaotic pantheons. As long as you have some big, showy, adventury stunts to pull off, you can probably get some of his faithful into the deal.
A general 'fight against the system' till seems rather nebulous. I think you might be better off with a stricter focus for shared goals.
For example, you might get Desna and Besmara together as a 'Free the
Seas' thing, allowing free travel without restraint or blockades.You could then bring in Milani if this organization was built as a reaction to a particular dominating threat (for example, Cheliax deciding to get more into this whole 'colonialism' thing). Cayden could also be dragged in for a general 'sea adventurer' thing with freedom.
Calistria would be a bit tenuous. She can play well with Milani (revolution as revenge kind of thing), but it would take a different focus. Maybe separate an anti slave trade organization, which could also bring in Cayden.
Cayden is fairly easy to get into a lot of chaotic pantheons. As long as you have some big, showy, adventury stunts to pull off, you can probably get some of his faithful into the deal.
Yes, you might be able to come up with a better unifying goal, but keep there are a few things to keep in mind. The first being that I wrote this past 11pm on a Sunday and I had been drinking so I simply put the first good idea that I could justify :D
The SECOND point, which is actually my main point, is that this group is the complete opposite of the God Claw.
The God Claw is a worship of Five Gods of Law. The idea is that by worshiping five different ideologies of Lawful Gods, you can take parts from each of them and create some form of perfect law, all with the goal of creating the perfect lawful society.
My Example Pantheon of Chaotic Deities is the exact opposite of this. "The Sacred Order of F@#$ the System" is not trying to create a perfect society, but rather believes that the very attempt of trying to create a perfect lawful society trounces on your freedom as an individual. Even Desna is a God of Liberation. Yes this is a loose grouping of anarchists, but that is the entire point! The Sacred Order of F@#$ the System would be a group of anarchists. They are anonymous, they are legion, they are the common rabble that has been trampled on by 'the man'.
Aren't you missing the point of a chaotic Godclaw? Why would there always be 5 on the rolls, let alone the same 5 every time. Fight down that Lawful urge to set it all in stone. Do you think Golarian is a game with perfect Rule?
Aren't you missing the point of a chaotic Godclaw? Why would there always be 5 on the rolls, let alone the same 5 every time. Fight down that Lawful urge to set it all in stone. Do you think Golarian is a game with perfect Rule?
There doesn't have to be 5, but then again there isn't anything wrong with 5 either. It could be 4, or 7. Whatever. 5 is fine.
To your other question, well yes. However many gods there are, it will be a specific set of 5 gods.
See, the Godclaw is a cult. A cult has a defined belief system that differs from standard. That is what gives it an identity.
Similarly, a chaotic Godclaw would be a cult. And if every member of this cult worshipped a different set of gods, there would be no identity around which the cult itself could be built.
Could there be multiple simultaneous chaotic cults? Sure. The Swarm and the Freedom Fighters could both exist, and be chaotic cults. But they are separate cults, not both part of a bigger chaos cult as there isn't enough shared identity.
Why would a Chaos cultist expect or even desire that the same line-up lasts forever.
I would like to see the cult first special be an ability to sense which gods happen to be interested at the moment.
Of course if you interest is making perfect strategies, then this idea would suck for you.
I could see a pantheon loosely organized around benevolence (good) and freedom (chaos). However, in this case Desna would be the linchpin of the group (in the same way that I think Abadar is the actual central figure in the Godclaw pantheon). She would then draw in the NG and CN deities who would agree with her on one of these principles and be indifferent about the other. Such a pantheon would be most popular in a nation where CG is the most popular alignment.
I don't really follow you. [edit for clarity, responding to Daw]
Someone who worships, for example, Lamashtu isn't likely to just randomly switch their worship to Nocticula just because they are chaotic.
Chaotic doesn't mean "random."
So there is no reason why a chaotic cult, a group of people who share a set of beliefs and sense of identity, would randomly shift their allegiance to different divine patrons either.
For that matter, why would a divine patron empower such a group? Even chaotic deities expect devotion.
However, chaotic means that they are not very dedicated to a long standing organization and alliance when it doesn't serve their personal and philosophical interests any more.
That is why I tended to focus on regional issues like 'keeping the seas free'- it is easier to bind chaotic groups together when they have a distinct and apparent shared interest.
So I like the idea of a loosely affiliated pantheon. I want one that you need a Venn Diagram to determine who you need:
"So you are looking to free a slave? We'll get the anti slave groups together right away... oh, the slave is your daughter, who was kidnapped when your wife was murdered? Delightful, we can get some of the vengeance groups in on this as well. Was this done by a high official? You might get some of the revolutionaries to chip in."
Basically- your pantheon is actually a group of several different pantheons (like the Desna/Besmara one for 'free sea travel' I mentioned earlier), but there are some gods that are lynch pins that work with several different groups (like I mentioned with Cayden) and their churches can scrap up some support from different pantheons for you when your matter is in multiple areas of concern.
This is far more 'chaotic' than just a simple godclaw copy. It embodies the nature of chaos- a bunch of rag tag groups that can, at times, join together into a tidal wave that can wipe out a target that attracts their shared interest. Quick to appear, quick to fall apart- fickle power that you must be careful not to rouse.
Aren't you missing the point of a chaotic Godclaw? Why would there always be 5 on the rolls, let alone the same 5 every time. Fight down that Lawful urge to set it all in stone. Do you think Golarian is a game with perfect Rule?
My goal was not to come to five, I simply ended up with five. My process (yes as a PERSON I am Lawfull :P) started by paging through Inner Sea Gods and looking at all of the Core 20 Gods, looking at which were Chaotic, then I looked at Inner Sea Faiths and looked at which Gods were Chaotic. Then I tried to come up with a thematic reason to link all of the remaining gods together.
Then I, as an imperfect human being with a drinking problem looked at who was left and eliminated some Gods that I personally decided did not fit with the others.
I eliminated Dahak(CE) because as a Draconic God of Destruction who not only has mostly Dragon worshipers, but his main goal is simply 'burn/kill everything'. The 'burn/kill everything' is also the reason that I eliminated Ghlaunder and Rovagug.
Excluding the those I included, this leaves me with left me with Lamashtu(CE-Birth), Gorum(CN-War), Groetus(CN-End of the World), Gyrona(CE-Hags), and Hanspur(CN-River Kingdoms).
Hanspur was not included simply because he is a VERY LOCAL(River Kingdoms) God. Gyrona is also excluded for a similar reason, because she is the God of Hags. If a person is in the River Kingdoms and/or a Hag than maybe include this/these god(s).
I could not think of a way to link Lamashtu(who is a god of birth) with other gods of freedom so she was out. Groetus is the god of the end times, so less a god of freedom and more of a god of the 'existential crisis', so again could not link it to the others.
Leaving me with Gorum, the God of War. The thing is that this order is not about waging war or the glory of battle. Yes Besmara has War as a Domain, but she is not a War God. These Gods are not about waging War, but rather about the freedom to do what you want when you want. Gorum is about the Glory of Battle and immortalizing your name.
So sure, The Sacred Order of F@#$ the System would probably include local Gods of Chaos depending on the local culture. Meaning that local cells would add their own gods as they deem fit. But based on what I could find, these were the Gods I chose for the Pantheon of The Sacred Order of F@#$ the System.