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I mean, isn't this kind of why Paladins have unlimited at will "detect evil"?
IRL profiling is bad both because it reinforces societal inequalities, but mostly because it doesn't actually work.
At least "Detect Evil" is fairly reliable.
Really isn't. A neutral cleric of an evil deity will respond as evil via detect evil. Won't get any smite bonus damage against the neutral cleric. Most evil characters won't detect until 5th level. And at higher levels, it's pretty easy to disguise or conceal an alignment. You can also alter other creature's alignments, for the purposes of detection, which makes it troubling for paladins to be too reliant on their detection.
Detect evil is useful as supporting evidence, but not enough on it's own. It also has good use when trying to determine if something is out of the ordinary.
I will note that the use of detect evil is not always considered polite. We have certainly had some combats which started because the paladin used his spell like ability (Detect evil) on someone that was already on the fence in attitude.
As for why they have unlimited detect evil, ultimately, I think it's there to balance Smite (and other class abilities). Smite is very powerful, but also near useless if you can't determine who is evil before declaring a target. Beyond that, evil is likely their main opposition, so it does make sense that they'd have a method of detection. Though again, just because something is detects as evil, doesn't mean Paladins will blindly attack it.
And remember the Paladin must maintain both their Lawful and Good Alignment aspects at the same time. Just because something is evil, doesn't make it lawful to attack. Just because something is chaotic, doesn't mean it is good attack it.
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Um yes there are things you very much can kill on sight, followers of the Demon Lord of RAPE meet that criteria.With sight only? No, not enough for a Lawful Good Paladin.
You have paladin mixed up with... something that's not a paladin.
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I think you're missing the whole "Demon Lord of Rape" thing.Um yes there are things you very much can kill on sight, followers of the Demon Lord of RAPE meet that criteria.With sight only? No, not enough for a Lawful Good Paladin.
No, I see that. What I don't see is how killing them on sight translates to a Lawful Good behaviour.
Are they undead? Are they outsiders with the evil subtype? Are they presently commiting crimes or committing deeds of evil?
Or are they just standing there, defenseless?
You should definitely investigate, and certainly be on your guard, but merely *appearing* as followers of an evil deity is not enough to attack.
Remember Batman (The Dark Knight), when Joker ties up the hostages and disguises them as criminals? Attacking on sight would attack the hostages.
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Hey man, don't go stereotyping! You're giving a bad name to all those CN clerics of Socothbenoth. They're not all bad!No such thing.Playing strictly as Asmodeus's advocate, yeah you can. I can roll a cleric of Rovagug who's more into his deity as the mightiest thing in existence rather than the harbinger of universal destruction. By that same coin I can have my CN cleric of Soc who takes a page from the taboos part of his portfolio and attempts to break down stagnant rules/laws by showing people they aren't so bad!
Personally I find the whole exercise extremely pedantic and stupid but PF allows you to make a murderhobo out of Sarenrae worship and still get powers so I can make a (relatively) benign demon lord worshiper by that same coin.
What a pedantic reading of the rules will allow and what the GM will allow are two different things.
The character you mentioned would be an extreme heretic btw.
]No, I see that. What I don't see is how killing them on sight translates to a Lawful Good behaviour.
He got a permit.
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Does a license to kill count?He got a permit.]No, I see that. What I don't see is how killing them on sight translates to a Lawful Good behaviour.
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I think you're missing the whole "Demon Lord of Rape" thing.Um yes there are things you very much can kill on sight, followers of the Demon Lord of RAPE meet that criteria.With sight only? No, not enough for a Lawful Good Paladin.No, I see that. What I don't see is how killing them on sight translates to a Lawful Good behaviour.
Are they presently commiting crimes or committing deeds of evil?
Or are they just standing there, defenseless?
You should definitely investigate, and certainly be on your guard, but merely *appearing* as followers of an evil deity is not enough to attack.
They follow Rape.
They advocate Rape.
They engage in Rape.
They're Evil.
Remember Batman (The Dark Knight), when Joker ties up the hostages and disguises them as criminals? Attacking on sight would attack the hostages.
And now you've moved the goal posts so far it isn't even funny.
You've changed from "you can't hunt, profile, and kill really evil stuff because it makes you a Serial Killer" to "you can't attack evil looking stuff on sight because it might be a trap/setup". No one was talking about something that looked evil but might not be, we were talking about actually evil things.
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Probably, but the point is the whole "within one step of alignment" thing means that it is possible to get non-altruistic clerics of good gods and non-malefactor clerics of bad ones. Just one reason why it's generally not seen as a paladin to glance at a guy's holy symbol in town and immediately just apply greatsword to face.Hey man, don't go stereotyping! You're giving a bad name to all those CN clerics of Socothbenoth. They're not all bad!No such thing.Playing strictly as Asmodeus's advocate, yeah you can. I can roll a cleric of Rovagug who's more into his deity as the mightiest thing in existence rather than the harbinger of universal destruction. By that same coin I can have my CN cleric of Soc who takes a page from the taboos part of his portfolio and attempts to break down stagnant rules/laws by showing people they aren't so bad!
Personally I find the whole exercise extremely pedantic and stupid but PF allows you to make a murderhobo out of Sarenrae worship and still get powers so I can make a (relatively) benign demon lord worshiper by that same coin.
What a pedantic reading of the rules will allow and what the GM will allow are two different things.
The character you mentioned would be an extreme heretic btw.
Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. Likewise, just because of the one-step rule you could make a CN follower of a CE deity doesn't mean any actually exist.
well it's not legal if it's in a town, nor is it respecting to towns authorities when they say "No killing without a permit" (see process for acquiring said permit above)
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Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. Likewise, just because of the one-step rule you could make a CN follower of a CE deity doesn't mean any actually exist.
canonically a lot of them do exist, so i think you do have to consider the possibility.
Regardless of someone's actual alignment, someone that has given their heart to an evil deity and is at least aiding and abetting evil actions. While their death rather than salvation is regrettable, they chose their fate when they have themselves over to darker powers
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Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. Likewise, just because of the one-step rule you could make a CN follower of a CE deity doesn't mean any actually exist.canonically a lot of them do exist, so i think you do have to consider the possibility.
Regardless of someone's actual alignment, someone that has given their heart to an evil deity and is at least aiding and abetting evil actions. While their death rather than salvation is regrettable, they chose their fate when they have themselves over to darker powers
For some deities absolutely (Nocticula, that one alchemist demon lord whose whole things is being friendly).
CN followers of the Demon Lord of Rape? Not seeing it.
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I don't see how it would work any different than your stock neutral worshiper of evil thing. You take one part of the portfolio that's spinnable to not-evil and run with that. Similar to those Asmodean guys who ignore the slavery/hellfire part of the god and stick with ironclad laws and discipline or those Norgaberger dudes who ignore the murder/poison bit and instead just run around collecting secrets.
How do you spin Rape to "Non-Evil"?
I see CN followers of Socothbenoth as like MRA/PUA types who just haven't actually thought this all the way through yet. They'll either come to their senses and change their ways or end up full-sail evil.
So it's not really appropriate for a Cleric, since Clerics have to be pretty into whatever their deity is about.
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Agree with Tarik, I don't think it'd be that hard to build a CN follower of Socothbenoth by emphasizing hedonism and self gratification.
Though I agree with Rysky's general point that some evil deities and such are very hard to put a neutral spin on.
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By not picking that part of his portfolio to focus on? I can just be some extreme hedonist who travels around in a quest for ultimate self gratification and not be a rapist for example.I don't see how it would work any different than your stock neutral worshiper of evil thing. You take one part of the portfolio that's spinnable to not-evil and run with that. Similar to those Asmodean guys who ignore the slavery/hellfire part of the god and stick with ironclad laws and discipline or those Norgaberger dudes who ignore the murder/poison bit and instead just run around collecting secrets.How do you spin Rape to "Non-Evil"?
Okay, then how do you spin ignoring you worship a deity of Rape into non-Evil?
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What I don't see is how killing them on sight translates to a Lawful Good behaviour.
Are they undead? Are they outsiders with the evil subtype?
Ah, so you think Paladins can kill undead and evil outsiders on sight, but not evil humanoids plotting the end of the world/the assassination of a city's ruler/the cultists of the demon lord of rape.
Seems like a bit of a double standard my friend.
Also, i don't remember anyone arguing for paladins simply killing people who ping evil on sight. Seems you added that part yourself.
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Okay, then how do you spin ignoring you worship a deity of Rape into non-Evil?By not picking that part of his portfolio to focus on? I can just be some extreme hedonist who travels around in a quest for ultimate self gratification and not be a rapist for example.I don't see how it would work any different than your stock neutral worshiper of evil thing. You take one part of the portfolio that's spinnable to not-evil and run with that. Similar to those Asmodean guys who ignore the slavery/hellfire part of the god and stick with ironclad laws and discipline or those Norgaberger dudes who ignore the murder/poison bit and instead just run around collecting secrets.How do you spin Rape to "Non-Evil"?
Short answer: you can't.
Long answer: Don't even try, you really can't.
The one step rule for alignment is a general rule that doesn't necessarily make sense with all deities. Especially the evil ones.
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What I don't see is how killing them on sight translates to a Lawful Good behaviour.
Are they undead? Are they outsiders with the evil subtype?
Ah, so you think Paladins can kill undead and evil outsiders on sight, but not evil humanoids plotting the end of the world/the assassination of a city's ruler/the cultists of the demon lord of rape.
Seems like a bit of a double standard my friend.
Also, i don't remember anyone arguing for paladins simply killing people who ping evil on sight. Seems you added that part yourself.
Yeah, pretty sure killing undead or evil outsiders on sight is racial profiling. If he wants to be consistent on his bizarre standards, the Paladin must throw away his sword give all undead or demons friendship hugs or else he will surely fall.
Okay, then how do you spin ignoring you worship a deity of Rape into non-Evil?By not picking that part of his portfolio to focus on? I can just be some extreme hedonist who travels around in a quest for ultimate self gratification and not be a rapist for example.I don't see how it would work any different than your stock neutral worshiper of evil thing. You take one part of the portfolio that's spinnable to not-evil and run with that. Similar to those Asmodean guys who ignore the slavery/hellfire part of the god and stick with ironclad laws and discipline or those Norgaberger dudes who ignore the murder/poison bit and instead just run around collecting secrets.How do you spin Rape to "Non-Evil"?There's more to Socothbenoth than rape, that's why everything in the PF cosmology has a portfolio of stuff you can zone in on. Like I pointed out above, the hypothetical cleric is just a guy roaming around for more extreme pleasures which can very easily be something like a toned down Warhammer 40k Noise Marine (IE drugs and discordant audio stimulation) and I'd raise an eyebrow if anyone said that's not fitting for Socoth.
This guy's just a wierdo looking to please himself and isn't hurting anyone unless you count playing nails on a chalkboard in G minor as being evil.
The bold part is your problem. At one point he will be looking at going even more extreme, cause the previous ones just don't do it anymore. And that's how you fall into the vicious circle that will drive him to actually get his pleasure by forcing it on others. There is no way this will end well, unless he reforms and go the other way.
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Why though? That's like saying all vendetta focused clerics of Calistria are inevitably going to drop to CE as they start murdering people over even the smallest slights.Okay, then how do you spin ignoring you worship a deity of Rape into non-Evil?By not picking that part of his portfolio to focus on? I can just be some extreme hedonist who travels around in a quest for ultimate self gratification and not be a rapist for example.I don't see how it would work any different than your stock neutral worshiper of evil thing. You take one part of the portfolio that's spinnable to not-evil and run with that. Similar to those Asmodean guys who ignore the slavery/hellfire part of the god and stick with ironclad laws and discipline or those Norgaberger dudes who ignore the murder/poison bit and instead just run around collecting secrets.How do you spin Rape to "Non-Evil"?There's more to Socothbenoth than rape, that's why everything in the PF cosmology has a portfolio of stuff you can zone in on. Like I pointed out above, the hypothetical cleric is just a guy roaming around for more extreme pleasures which can very easily be something like a toned down Warhammer 40k Noise Marine (IE drugs and discordant audio stimulation) and I'd raise an eyebrow if anyone said that's not fitting for Socoth.
This guy's just a wierdo looking to please himself and isn't hurting anyone unless you count playing nails on a chalkboard in G minor as being evil.
The bold part is your problem. At one point he will be looking at going even more extreme, cause the previous ones just don't do it anymore. And that's how you fall into the vicious circle that will drive him to actually get his pleasure by forcing it on others. There is no way this will end well, unless he reforms and go the other way.
If they do do that will will go CE.
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It's less character philosophy and more me sorta wondering who's the guy who says what is or isn't too tame for Soc. You can say getting your jollies through noise marine tier music isn't extreme enough just as I can say reverse that and say rape isn't extreme enough either and neither person can prove one way or another which is more debauched leaving a pointless circular argument.If your character thinks Rape isn't that debauched and "anyone" can do that and wants to top it, they're Evil.
1) Socethbenoth says what is or isn't too tame for him.
2) Rape is an extremely evil act. There's no debating that. None. If you're character doesn't think it's evil, your character is Evil.
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If...That's the crux of the matter. Mr Hedonism devolving into a malefactor on his quest for self gratification is no more inevitable than Ms Revenge devolving into stabbing people over not noticing her new shoes.
They're not remotely the same for one thing. Revenge is a reaction, hedonism is a lack of restraints. So they would "devolve" comepletely differently, if at all. The hedonism one becoming more and more depraved is more likely, as its whole thing is "lack of restraint".
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It's less character philosophy and more me sorta wondering who's the guy who says what is or isn't too tame for Soc. You can say getting your jollies through noise marine tier music isn't extreme enough just as I can say reverse that and say rape isn't extreme enough either and neither person can prove one way or another which is more debauched leaving a pointless circular argument.If your character thinks Rape isn't that debauched and "anyone" can do that and wants to top it, they're Evil.
1) Socethbenoth says what is or isn't too tame for him.
2) Rape is an extremely evil act. There's no debating that. None. If you're character doesn't think it's evil, your character is Evil.
Yeah, Socethbenoth says what is or isn't tame for him. The fact that, RAW, you can play a CN cleric of Soc means that, obviously, it's possible to worship him without devolving into Evil. Just like it's possible to worship Norgober, or Asmodeus, or any other kind of Evil diety. You don't get to decide that, the game does, and the game says it's a-ok.
Not to mention, he's not the Demon lord of RAPE, as you like to say, he's the demon lord of "perversion, pride and taboos". And you can be pretty prideful and taboo breaking without being evil
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Actually we can, if you'd read up on the deity your trying to justify having have a non-evil follower of.
Socothbenoth appeals to deviants of all kinds, although his own tastes run toward the most violent or debauched varieties as do many of his followers.
And you're wrong, Belief and mindset DEFINITELY affect your character's Alignment, since that's how you decide your actions. If your character genuinely believes children should be eaten they're Evil.
They're not remotely the same for one thing. Revenge is a reaction, hedonism is a lack of restraints. So they would "devolve" comepletely differently, if at all. The hedonism one becoming more and more depraved is more likely, as its whole thing is "lack of restraint".If...That's the crux of the matter. Mr Hedonism devolving into a malefactor on his quest for self gratification is no more inevitable than Ms Revenge devolving into stabbing people over not noticing her new shoes.
Minor quibble.
Hedonism is not a lack of restraints. It is the school of thought, that teaches, that the pursuite of pleasure is the right aim of human life.
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It's less character philosophy and more me sorta wondering who's the guy who says what is or isn't too tame for Soc. You can say getting your jollies through noise marine tier music isn't extreme enough just as I can say reverse that and say rape isn't extreme enough either and neither person can prove one way or another which is more debauched leaving a pointless circular argument.If your character thinks Rape isn't that debauched and "anyone" can do that and wants to top it, they're Evil.
1) Socethbenoth says what is or isn't too tame for him.
2) Rape is an extremely evil act. There's no debating that. None. If you're character doesn't think it's evil, your character is Evil.
Yeah, Socethbenoth says what is or isn't tame for him. The fact that, RAW, you can play a CN cleric of Soc means that, obviously, it's possible to worship him without devolving into Evil. Just like it's possible to worship Norgober, or Asmodeus, or any other kind of Evil diety. You don't get to decide that, the game does, and the game says it's a-ok.
Not to mention, he's not the Demon lord of RAPE, as you like to say, he's the demon lord of "perversion, pride and taboos". And you can be pretty prideful and taboo breaking without being evil
No the rules do not say you can be a CN worshipper of Socethbenoth, it says you can (if you completely divorce everything except the letters form your decision) be within one step of alignment. That does mean these hypothetical followers even exist or are possible.
Read his writeup, not his portfolio, he's the demon lord of Rape.
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They're not remotely the same for one thing. Revenge is a reaction, hedonism is a lack of restraints. So they would "devolve" comepletely differently, if at all. The hedonism one becoming more and more depraved is more likely, as its whole thing is "lack of restraint".If...That's the crux of the matter. Mr Hedonism devolving into a malefactor on his quest for self gratification is no more inevitable than Ms Revenge devolving into stabbing people over not noticing her new shoes.Minor quibble.
Hedonism is not a lack of restraints. It is the school of thought, that teaches, that the pursuite of pleasure is the right aim of human life.
Ah, right, sorry. Was mixing up hedonist and libertine.