Really my biggest wonder here is...why are the metric users worried about it?
You know the system is 5ft to a square, just convert everything to squares. The rest doesn't really matter. And if you really need a to give a number of meters, just decide with your group whether you want to round to 1 or 2, but just use the correct number of squares.
Maybe if there is some important description about how long a ship is you can get your GM to be nice and convert it when they read it.
Outside of that, I really don't see the importance.
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I had almost exactly this happening today while baking christmas cookies using an American recipe.The recipe said something about threehundredsomething degrees and I stood in front of the oven scratching my head for a while (thinking: 'how the hell do I get THAT temperature out of a normal oven?') before I remembered that it was propably in Fahrenheit. My calculator told me bake the cookies at 176,667° which I figured is close enough to 180° which is the usual baking temperatureThat's how the rest of the world feels about imperial.
"What the hell is that 113? Above boiling??? No wait, USA." And then we have to subtract 32 and divide the result by 1.8. OH. It's 45.
176 thousand, 6 hundred and 67 degrees?
Wouldn't that melt your oven?
Really my biggest wonder here is...why are the metric users worried about it?
You know the system is 5ft to a square, just convert everything to squares. The rest doesn't really matter. And if you really need a to give a number of meters, just decide with your group whether you want to round to 1 or 2, but just use the correct number of squares.
Maybe if there is some important description about how long a ship is you can get your GM to be nice and convert it when they read it.
Outside of that, I really don't see the importance.
But, if you do that, it will be like fourth edition D&D. Heresy! Burn the witch!
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I always figured turning 5 feet into 1 meter makes conversion fairly simple.
I mean sure 1 meter is smaller than 5 feet but having '5 feet' be the most important distance unit was pretty arbitrary anyway. No reason you can't have a 'one meter step' rather than a 'five foot step'.
Even the "5-ft step" didn't always make sense with me. For very large creatures, being limited to a step of 5 feet in combat seemed silly given their natural reach and speed. Same for small and smaller creatures, the 5-ft steep seems a little far for them compared to their reach and speed.
I know someone will try to retcon it as "size == metabolism" or something. But it has always seemed more intuitive to me to have a hypothetical "reach step" instead. I guess because most PCs are small or medium with a 5-ft reach, WOTC called it the 5-ft step and that was that.
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I had almost exactly this happening today while baking christmas cookies using an American recipe.The recipe said something about threehundredsomething degrees and I stood in front of the oven scratching my head for a while (thinking: 'how the hell do I get THAT temperature out of a normal oven?') before I remembered that it was propably in Fahrenheit. My calculator told me bake the cookies at 176,667° which I figured is close enough to 180° which is the usual baking temperatureThat's how the rest of the world feels about imperial.
"What the hell is that 113? Above boiling??? No wait, USA." And then we have to subtract 32 and divide the result by 1.8. OH. It's 45.176 thousand, 6 hundred and 67 degrees?
Wouldn't that melt your oven?Certain ways of writing (and languages) use the comma as decimal marker, rather than as thousands division.
To further add to the ambiguity with large numbers, "a billion" can be 10^9, a thousand million, or 10^12, a million million. The latter is seen in French, where "une milliard" is 10^9. This is why I switch to scientific notation at 10^8.
I know. :)
But if others are complaining about U.S. peculiarities, why can't we, theirs?
Yeah the whole comma thing threw me off for YEARS. And don't get me started on the strange ways we measured a circle while in the U.S. Army(6283 mils). And telling people that my mortar had an effective range of 7.2 kilometers? I just started saying five miles because it's easier for us Americans to picture in our head. Even if it is closer to 4.5 miles...
Trying to picture metric measurements in my head just makes me want to burn MAIM
Without using a map or any kind of instrument, would you be able to tell if an object in the distance is 4, 5, or 6 miles away?
I know I couldn't. For me this is why I would be okay with switching to kilometers all the time. Beyond some measurement that is intuitively grasped and estimated, it's all just numbers.
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It just doesn't make sense to have a medieval fantasy using meters and kilograms, so what happens when that medieval society advances and moves to space? Are they going to invent precisely the same Metric system that the French did? For a space faring society, a more logical system might go something like this.
The speed of light is 299,792,458 meters per second. There are 3.2808399 feet in a meter, therefore the speed of light in feet is 983,571,058 feet per second. Hmm, that is almost one billion! Well what if we designed a metric foot that is closer to the customary measure of 1 foot, but shortened it just enough so that light travels one billion of those in 1 second? This metric foot is 0.9835710579254742 that of an American foot, or about 11.8 inches.
The new Metric Mile would then be 10,000 metric feet, since we are basing everything on multiples of 10.
If you really want to play "what if" scenarios, why would a world which multiple sentient species, not all of whom have 10 fingers, default to base 10 counting?
What was that? That was the sound of unnumbered metric purists spinning in their graves.
Fantasy feet are smaller than you thought! And space meters are LARGER!
In any case I'm going to homebrew all 5 foots as 1 meters and use those! And NO ONE CAN STOP ME!
or just base 2/8/16 for computing.
If you really want to play "what if" scenarios, why would a world which multiple sentient species, not all of whom have 10 fingers, default to base 10 counting?
Ternary computers are a thing. And, for that matter, the second itself is pretty arbitrary. Why should a light-second be a more intuitive distance base than a light-fortnight?
I think one of the Heinlein novels proposed a high-tech civilization that built its number system in base 120, because (as five factorial) that fit almost any structure you were likely to need to encounter.
.... and then we have the problem that this is not an actual high-tech civilization. It is a representation of a high-tech civilization in use by actual humans, who have ten fingers (and who have an intuitive understanding of distances in terms of feet and meters, not in terms of pico-light-fortnights).
I'm of the opinion that people's 'intuitive understanding' of units is based entirely on whatever they grew up with. A lot of societies in the past used base 12 numbering systems as that has more divisors than 10.
(I mean you can count to 12 on the knuckles of four fingers but still)
Without using a map or any kind of instrument, would you be able to tell if an object in the distance is 4, 5, or 6 miles away?
I know I couldn't. For me this is why I would be okay with switching to kilometers all the time. Beyond some measurement that is intuitively grasped and estimated, it's all just numbers.
I'm not sure why this would be different in any measuring system. 6 miles or 10 kilometers or 400,000 fahrfignewtons*, I doubt most people would be able to eyeball the distance particularly accurately.
*the number of fig newtons you can place in a line between yourself and a far object.
Starfinder is going to be imperial for compatibility with Pathfinder, not some objective measure of anyone's preferences or a measure of the inherent worth of a measurement system.
Will SF finally use the metric system or do I still need to consult an app while playing or GMing to translate the gibberish?
I guess the optimal option would be to use both systems in the books...
But if that is not doable, I will vote for compatibility: keep the Imperial system to preserve as much compatibility as possible with existing D&D3.5/Pathfinder material!!
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*wishing that I had noticed this thread earlier*
For the sake of the Starfinder setting's futuristic flavour, I strongly support use of the metric system. It has stronger connotations of science/high-tech. A base-10 system also makes more sense if the setting is dominated by 10-fingered humans, elves, dwarves, etc. (And for me personally, it's the easiest system to use.)
I can understand why miniature-on-battle-map movement, weapon ranges, and the like might be easier (for USAmerican readers in particular) if those systems still used feet and miles. I can deal with that (even though I can never remember how many feet there are in a mile).
But for the love of any deity that's listening, PLEASE put temperatures in both Fahrenheit and Celsius!!!!!
At the very least, put in a conversion table. Not just a formula, but a chart. Like I wrote above, I can deal with the common parts Imperial/US system, but temperature conversions on the fly have always escaped me. Environmental temperatures in particular are a pain to convert, particularly if a spell or other description talks about "for every five degrees changed" (which would entail many temperature conversions for me to understand).
I liked the idea in one of the earlier posts, about hiding it in the page-edge art. :)
I suppose it's just what you're used to, but it's difficult to care about getting used to the bizarre conversions just within the imperial system. I mean, the number of feet in a mile? Who even came up with that?
The Imperial / US Customary (they're not exactly the same*) is based on a few things... but the short version: Arbitrary and what is easily divisible by hand (hence the use of 12 and 16 in such systems).
Speaking as an engineer... It saddens me that the US opted to stick with their customary units rather than convert to metric like the rest of the world. So, so close to a global standard on units and measurements, and the joy that could have been... well, okay, at least the reduced frustration of having to convert things constantly whenever dealing with anything from or going into the US.
*Interesting note: The US gallon is 3.785 Liters. The Imperial gallon is 4.546 Liters.
3.785 Liters of water weighs 3.785 kilograms (convenient!) or 8.344 pounds.
4.546 Liters of water weighs 4.546 kg, or 10.022 pounds.According to the CRB, one gallon of ale weighs 8 lbs.
Ergo, D&D and its derivatives use US Customary units, not Imperial.
That's why I prefer Imperial Pints of beer or US Pints.
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But for the love of any deity that's listening, PLEASE put temperatures in both Fahrenheit and Celsius!!!!!At the very least, put in a conversion table. Not just a formula, but a chart. Like I wrote above, I can deal with the common parts Imperial/US system, but temperature conversions on the fly have always escaped me. Environmental temperatures in particular are a pain to convert, particularly if a spell or other description talks about "for every five degrees changed" (which would entail many temperature conversions for me to understand).
Super-rough F/C conversion: F is double C. If all you need is a ballpark estimate this will get you in the region. A change of 5 degrees Celsius is 9 degrees Fahrenheit.
In space, generally you only need three temperatures: Super hot(metals are gases), room temperature, and super cold (gases are solids). Yes there are finer differences but from a narrative/game POV that about covers it.
You have to start at 20C = 68F. Every 5C up or down is 9F.
As a Canadian with an engineering degree I have no problem with using imperial for simple things, which is all you will need for the average game of pathfinder or starfinder. But using Imperial for any kind of scientific or engineering calculations is complete and total heresy and makes everything way more complicated than it needs to be.
just convert your pound force to slugs then to pounds mass :P
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You have to start at 20C = 68F. Every 5C up or down is 9F.
You can't just start at -40? :P
Do temperatures get that low very often where you live?
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Do temperatures get that low very often where you live?
Not where I live now, but where I grew up (Michigan) most outdoor thermometers went that low. I knew -40 was the same on both scales since about the time I could read. Temperatures below -20 F (-29 C) weren't especially common but they did happen.
BTW, is there a reason why they couldn't do imperial(metric)/fahrenheit(celsius) format? I mean, Numenera does that all the time so I think its doable at least .-.
I think the issue is that with the size of the book, the increased notation would actually have an impact on the length...but I could be wrong.
*echoes above sentiments and fears*
It still surprises me when I realise that a 10 ft. by 10 ft. room is 3m by 3m, and it's actually pretty large. I suppose it's just what you're used to, but it's difficult to care about getting used to the bizarre conversions just within the imperial system. I mean, the number of feet in a mile? Who even came up with that?
Ultimately though, when everything's basically just in units of "Squares" on your battle map, you can call it whatever you like. I admit to just crushing distance a little and using 1m squares instead of 5ft. ones, and calling a mile a kilometre. Everything's (approximately) 2/3s the size in actual distance, but it's still the same number of spaces between things, and that's mostly what matters. Also makes it incidentally more practical in normal use.
The Roman Empire came up with that. A mile is a thousand paces (two steps), and a pace, for them, is just over 5 feet. Ancient Roman roads were set up with mile markers, and it helped them determine how far legions could move in a single day, which was good for planning.
BTW, is there a reason why they couldn't do imperial(metric)/fahrenheit(celsius) format? I mean, Numenera does that all the time so I think its doable at least .-.I think the issue is that with the size of the book, the increased notation would actually have an impact on the length...but I could be wrong.
A short three-column chart showing temp equivalents (including Kelvin) could be integrated into the border art on some pages as needed.
A short three-column chart showing temp equivalents (including Kelvin) could be integrated into the border art on some pages as needed.BTW, is there a reason why they couldn't do imperial(metric)/fahrenheit(celsius) format? I mean, Numenera does that all the time so I think its doable at least .-.I think the issue is that with the size of the book, the increased notation would actually have an impact on the length...but I could be wrong.
Kelvin? This from the guy who asked if it ever reached -40 where I lived?! ;)
Well, it's a kind of chilly 280K outside right now, but has very rarely gotten below 273K this winter, so... :)
If the Kelvin scale had been calibrated so that that 273.15K was 100K instead, room temperature would be about 108, water boils or condenses at ~136.61, and ~117.361554 would be just about the same temperature in both K and and F. With such a short range for the human comfort zone, a difference of one degree would definitely mean something.
A short three-column chart showing temp equivalents (including Kelvin) could be integrated into the border art on some pages as needed.BTW, is there a reason why they couldn't do imperial(metric)/fahrenheit(celsius) format? I mean, Numenera does that all the time so I think its doable at least .-.I think the issue is that with the size of the book, the increased notation would actually have an impact on the length...but I could be wrong.
Entirely fair idea. I'm just not sure that Paizo would want to do it. Personally, I find anything written in the border art/margin area to be an annoyance and the most likely area to be damaged if something happens to a book, so I'd personally lean against it.
In all honesty, while I personally don't like the idea of swapping, I agree that metric fits the 'feel' of sci-fi better. I'm not good at metric (an American here), but I have no issues with it, and I've memorized ways to convert most numbers, so...I can manage it, eventually.
On the other hand, I also fully understand why they're keeping measurements the same for compatibility reasons. No matter what they choose, someone is going to be frustrated, alas.
dblade. That's why I'm an advocate of just making one space meter = five fantasy feet in a length conversion to metric. Makes things really simple for grid combat too. Easier to conceive of 15 meters away as 15 squares away on the map than the mental arithmetic of 75 feet = 15 squares. I mean it's not much mental arithmetic but every little bit matters.
This is really boring, I mean why do we keep talking about this? Everyone seems real fascinated with the metric system, as if it will make or break this game system. No one really minded feet and inches for Pathfinder, why should anyone mind it for Starfinder? The Metric System was invented by the French, there are no French people here!
because archaic systems fit in archaic settings better than in futuristic settings
I bet the currency system will be metric. Likely the credit unit like a lot of other scifi games use. Not like Astate, a dark future dystopia game that had their future currency measured in pounds and shillings.
dblade. That's why I'm an advocate of just making one space meter = five fantasy feet in a length conversion to metric. Makes things really simple for grid combat too. Easier to conceive of 15 meters away as 15 squares away on the map than the mental arithmetic of 75 feet = 15 squares. I mean it's not much mental arithmetic but every little bit matters.
It makes for really tiny places or impractically huge battle maps, however. I'm not really a fan of hangar bays the size of shoeboxes or maps that fall off the table, and square = meter runs into either of those really fast.
What's wrong with standard gold, platinum, silver, and copper pieces?I bet the currency system will be metric. Likely the credit unit like a lot of other scifi games use. Not like Astate, a dark future dystopia game that had their future currency measured in pounds and shillings.
I'm pretty sure that the currency will be called "credits" and will come in "credit sticks".
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I would very much like if Paizo used the metric system for all their systems. Considering that many people across the world is playing the game, having a "non-US" edition would be nice, but I doubt we'll get that.
Until then, I'll continue to homebrew my own metric unit conversions.