A Sansetsukon is a Sansetsukon. If it was a quarterstaff, it would not have it's own separate entry.
RAW, no. It does sound like grounds for a houserule, though.
"A quarterstaff is a simple piece of wood, about 5 feet in length."
"Also called a three-section staff, this weapon is divided into three 2-footlong segments chained together."
It doesn't say it's made from wood, so cold iron, adamantine, silver, and the like are all possible.
The three-sectional staff, triple staff, three-part staff, sansetsukon in Japanese, or originally sanjiegun (Chinese: 三節棍; pinyin: sānjiégùn; Jyutping: saam1 zit3 gwan3), is a Chinese flail weapon that consists of three wooden or metal staffs connected by metal rings or rope.I think it should be no problem?
It shouldn't be, but I'm sure that there will those who will point out problems in order to needlessly extend this thread.
Sansetsukon (Three-Section Staff ): This staff is broken
into three 2-foot-long segments that have been chained
back together, allowing the wielder greater flexibility,
and allows the weapon to be swung rapidly to create a
defensive block.
Sounds like wood unless someone has another description.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't know how you got 'sounds like wood' from that, as it says literally nothing about the material.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Who says quarterstaffs must be made of wood?
I'd buy that for 300 gp to remove any doubt :)
Although... if you have that on a three section staff, you effectively have a lawn waterer wak wak wak wak chuggachugachugga wak wak wak
A typical staff also functions as a walking stick, quarterstaff, or cudgel.
A large number of Staffs are made of materials other than wood. They still function as a quarterstaff.
Who says quarterstaffs must be made of wood?
The definition of a quarterstaff, which says it's a wooden stick.
An undine weaponshaft is a weapon built with a hollow shaft instead of a solid one. So your undine quarter staff is a hollow, wooden staff. There's nothing in there that says you can throw out material restrictions on the weapon.
To be fair, the Ruby Phoenix Tournament module, one or both of the final bosses have adamantine quarterstaves, but I'm sure that was an errior.
I think he is trying to say that because it can be built around a metal pole it can be different materials.
The idea of a metal quarterstaff bothers me from a number of standpoints, the biggest one being weapon proficiency. A quarterstaff is wood and can be used to make quick lightning strikes. Metal is several times more dense than wood. Make it out of metal and you have a different weapon with a different balance and a different speed.
The next problem is almost as big: you are also using both hands to wield a quarterstaff, and one hand is functioning as a pivot to make these quick strikes. Wood is flexible, pliable, and soft. Metal is not. A metal staff would shatter your hand.
Who says quarterstaffs must be made of wood?The definition of a quarterstaff, which says it's a wooden stick.
An undine weaponshaft is a weapon built with a hollow shaft instead of a solid one. So your undine quarter staff is a hollow, wooden staff. There's nothing in there that says you can throw out material restrictions on the weapon.
Actually, it does, and gives examples, I.e. Mithral and admantine.
Actually, it does, and gives examples, I.e. Mithral and admantine.
No, it says "Instead of a solid shaft, the weapon is built around a pipe of wood or metal" and "functions like a standard weapon of its type, and can be made of special materials (such as mithral or adamantine)".
Standard rules still apply. There are rules for replacing metal with darkwood, and metal with special metals. There are no rules that I know of for replacing wood with metal.
But one of my friends say that the staff in "Sansetsukon (Three-Section Staff ): This staff is broken into three 2-foot-long segments that have been chained back together" is quarterstaff, so because quarterstaff can't made of metal, sansetsukon neither.
I think sansetsukon and quarterstaff is totally different thing, right?
IMO, quarterstaffs and sansetsukon are proper subsets of the set "staffs". The rule says that a quarterstaff cannot be made of metal, but that rule does not apply to any other members of "staves." I mean, it's not like metal rods don't exist, or that you can't hit people with them, or that you couldn't join three of them via a chain, or that you couldn't buy metal three-section staffs at most well-stocked martial arts supply stores, so it's not like the very idea is absurd.
The section on Staffs (the magic item) in the CRB says:
A typical staff measures anywhere from 4 feet to 7 feet long and is 2 inches to 3 inches thick, weighing about 5 pounds. Most staves are wood, but an exotic few are bone, metal, or even glass.
So if you can have a magic staff that's made of metal, you should be able to have a non-magic staff that's made of metal. After all, you have to have the mundane metal staff before you can enchant it to make it magic.
With the 3 sectional staff can you enchant each section with a different ability?
Or do you have to enchant each section with the same ability at 3x the cost?
Sort of like how you can enchant each end of a Q-Staff with different abilities.MDC
Nope. Sansetsukon is a single weapon, you cannot enchant each section separately. It doesn't even have the 'double' quality which is what allows the quarterstaff to be enchanted each end.
Actually, it does, and gives examples, I.e. Mithral and admantine.No, it says "Instead of a solid shaft, the weapon is built around a pipe of wood or metal" and "functions like a standard weapon of its type, and can be made of special materials (such as mithral or adamantine)".
Standard rules still apply. There are rules for replacing metal with darkwood, and metal with special metals. There are no rules that I know of for replacing wood with metal.
Specific > general. The specific rules for undine weapons list the quarter staff and allow it to be manufactured from special materials.
Specific > general. The specific rules for undine weapons list the quarter staff and allow it to be manufactured from special materials.
I am not convinced that this is what it is saying. The description is written to say that you can do this to a wood or metal weapon, and that the usual rules for special materials apply.
YMMV.
You seem to be assuming a lack of light, soft metals. These exist in our world (see lithium), and fantasy worlds are known for a larger array of metals with interesting physical properties.
I am well aware of the problems inherent in a Lithium quarterstaff, I am just stating that your assumptions are incorrect.
Fair enough, but fortunately we have rules in Core about this.
"A longsword can be a mithral weapon, while a quarterstaff cannot."
"An arrow could be made of adamantine, but a quarterstaff could not."
And so on. It's pretty clear that quarterstaffs are made of wood. A metal bar is still a usable weapon, but it is no longer a weapon called a "quarterstaff".
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just throwing this into the mix for the sake of, I don't know, published Paizo material contradicting the RAW, but there's an arcane bonded item +1 mithral quarterstaff in the Council of Thieves AP. I don't understand why a quarterstaff can't be made of whatever you want to be made out of. Seems like a silly contradiction to every other materials rule.
The idea of a metal quarterstaff bothers me from a number of standpoints, the biggest one being weapon proficiency. A quarterstaff is wood and can be used to make quick lightning strikes. Metal is several times more dense than wood. Make it out of metal and you have a different weapon with a different balance and a different speed.
The next problem is almost as big: you are also using both hands to wield a quarterstaff, and one hand is functioning as a pivot to make these quick strikes. Wood is flexible, pliable, and soft. Metal is not. A metal staff would shatter your hand.
You could ironwood a quarterstaff, making it just as hard as steel, and that has no game effect on the use of it. So the argument that the flexibility is a requirement is out.
Why couldn't you make a metal cap on each end of the staff out of the material in question? Sort of a slip cover that is attached. This would minimize the weight gain for the weapon while still providing the adamantine surface for striking. Sort of like applying silversheen, but in a permanent fashion.
Worst case, you could try to get a transformative adamantine weapon, and then change it into an adamantine quarterstaff.
Lastly, from a RAW perspective, only quarterstaff is required to be made out of wood, a sansetsukon is not. Metal sansetsukons actually exist, so I would use that as a reasonable argument for why it should be allowed.
Metal sansetsukons actually existThough as a point against that (and despite John's belief that it's impossible) there are metal sticks that actually exist too.
Sure, there are metal sticks and you can use them as effective weapons by whacking people with them, but the question remains "are they quarterstaffs?" Etymologically, I believe, the "quarter" part of the name refers specifically to the staff being made from the hardwood of a tree that had been split into quarters (being from the trunk of the tree rather than carved from a branch will make for a sturdier staff.)
You cannot make a metal staff out of a tree, whether whole or quartered; no matter how hard you try, so it's not really a quarterstaff. There's no etymological contradiction in having a metal bo staff, though, and that's both a pathfinder item and a staff.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Metal sansetsukons actually existThough as a point against that (and despite John's belief that it's impossible) there are metal sticks that actually exist too.
The book says all quarterstaffs are wood. It does not say the same about sansetsukons.
It seems pretty petty to not allow a staff to be made of metal, especially with real world equivalents being normal.
Nice fireball Susie, great mind blade there Jonny, Frank- Frank what the hell is that; a metal stick? Get out of the game!
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
As someone who actually owns two different metal quarterstaves, I'd like to add my most sincere facepalm to this thread.
As someone who actually owns two different metal quarterstaves, I'd like to add my most sincere facepalm to this thread.
nonetheless, its an item clearly called out in the rules as something you can't make of metal.
It seems pretty petty to not allow a staff to be made of metal, especially with real world equivalents being normal.
Nice fireball Susie, great mind blade there Jonny, Frank- Frank what the hell is that; a metal stick? Get out of the game!
i think that's just called a light mace.
As mentioned above,the 'quarter' in quarterstaff refers to the type of -wood- it is made from.Well that is one possibly etymology, but it's contested, though even then your answer is wrong. That etymology refers to the methods of production, not the type of wood.
quartersawn is a type of wood (types don't have to be species)
quartersawn is a type of wood (types don't have to be species)As mentioned above,the 'quarter' in quarterstaff refers to the type of -wood- it is made from.Well that is one possibly etymology, but it's contested, though even then your answer is wrong. That etymology refers to the methods of production, not the type of wood.
And because a quarterstaff is named because it is made from quartered wood, prevents someone from making the same shape out of metal with the same functionality? Or prevents someone taking a quarterstaff and coating the tips with different metals to allow them to deal that damage type when using it?
And because a quarterstaff is named because it is made from quartered wood, prevents someone from making the same shape out of metal with the same functionality? Or prevents someone taking a quarterstaff and coating the tips with different metals to allow them to deal that damage type when using it?
No we were just kind of geeking out over minutia.
weapons need to be made of the type of general material before you can make them out of the special material: that's a rule. The quaterstaff is the specific example the book uses to describe something that's made out of wood so can't be made out of metal
The ondine firehose weapon workaround someone linked above is a nice way around that though.
You could ironwood a quarterstaff, making it just as hard as steel
The game isn't a simulation and the rules sort of break down on the edge cases like this. I was merely pointing out one way in which a quarterstaff was used.
Why couldn't you make a metal cap on each end of the staff out of the material in question? Sort of a slip cover that is attached.
Nothing stops you from doing this, but you have created a new weapon according to Pathfinder, which defines a quarterstaff as "a simple piece of wood, about 5 feet in length."
As someone who actually owns two different metal quarterstaves, I'd like to add my most sincere facepalm to this thread.
Take it up with Paizo. According to them, that weapon is not a quarterstaff. It's a "metalbarstaff", or whatever else you want to call it, and your neighborhood wizard isn't proficient with it.
Just throwing this into the mix for the sake of, I don't know, published Paizo material contradicting the RAW, but there's an arcane bonded item +1 mithral quarterstaff in the Council of Thieves AP.
Pathfinder is a complex game system with a lot of rules. When you have lots of rules and lots of authors writing modules and adventures, mistakes get made. I imagine this is neither the first nor the last.
If I were GM'ing this AP, I'd allow mithral quarterstaffs in order to stay consistent with the AP setting. But it's clearly a contradiction of Core which explicitly calls out that quarterstaffs can't be made from mithral.
I don't understand why a quarterstaff can't be made of whatever you want to be made out of. Seems like a silly contradiction to every other materials rule.
What contradictions are those? Core pretty clearly states what material substitutions are allowed.
Either way, though, take it up with Paizo. They are the ones who made the rules.
|
Specific > general. The specific rules for undine weapons list the quarter staff and allow it to be manufactured from special materials.Actually, it does, and gives examples, I.e. Mithral and admantine.No, it says "Instead of a solid shaft, the weapon is built around a pipe of wood or metal" and "functions like a standard weapon of its type, and can be made of special materials (such as mithral or adamantine)".
Standard rules still apply. There are rules for replacing metal with darkwood, and metal with special metals. There are no rules that I know of for replacing wood with metal.
Read the whole text:
Undine Weaponshaft: Undines incorporate a unique design when crafting shafted weapons such as quarterstaves, spears, and tridents. Instead of a solid shaft, the weapon is built around a pipe of wood or metal, with the butt end sealed and the front end left open. As a full-round action, an undine can make a single melee attack with the weapon and use her hydraulic push spell-like ability against the target of that melee attack. The weapon otherwise functions like a standard weapon of its type, and can be made of special materials (such as mithral or adamantine) and masterwork quality.
The weaponshaft isn't something limited to quarterstaves, it is open to all shafted weapons. some shafted weapon can be made of adamantine or mithral, others can be made with darkwood.
The text clearly say: "the weapon otherwise functions like a standard weapon of its type,", so the weapon is subject to all limitations for that type of weapon. The implication of that description is that the special material you can use depend on what special material you can use when making a standard version of that kind of weapon.
weapons need to be made of the type of general material before you can make them out of the special material: that's a rule. The quaterstaff is the specific example the book uses to describe something that's made out of wood so can't be made out of metalThe ondine firehose weapon workaround someone linked above is a nice way around that though.
As explained above, I don't think so.
I would easily permit to someone to build a wooden quarterstave with with the striking hend covered in mithral and adamantine, but teh shaft would still be made of wood.
And for people that say that ironwood change the wood flexibility, it don't:
While remaining natural wood in almost every way, ironwood is as strong, heavy, and resistant to fire as steel.
RAW that make wood:
- times strong as steel, so hardness 10 and 30 hp for inch of tichness;- heavy as steel (so it would weight 7-8 times what the wooden version weight, ouch)
- it will be as resistant to fire as steel.
No change in flexibility, texture, aspect, etc.
Enjoy your 28 lbs quarterstaff.
Living Steel is made from (very specific) trees. Therefore, I see no problem with quartersawn living steel, made into a quarterstaff.
You might not, and I agree it isn't a problem, but the rules do.
Items not primarily of metal are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of living steel.
Specific > general. The specific rules for undine weapons list the quarter staff and allow it to be manufactured from special materials.I am not convinced that this is what it is saying. The description is written to say that you can do this to a wood or metal weapon, and that the usual rules for special materials apply.
YMMV.
Undines incorporate a unique design when crafting shafted weapons such as quarterstaves, spears, and tridents. Instead of a solid shaft, the weapon is built around a pipe of wood or metal, with the butt end sealed and the front end left open. As a full-round action, an undine can make a single melee attack with the weapon and use her hydraulic push spell-like ability against the target of that melee attack. The weapon otherwise functions like a standard weapon of its typeand can be made of special materials (such as mithral or adamantine), and masterwork quality
Emphasis mine.
The description says wood or metal can be used, but does not limit that description to specific weapons, i.e. you can make a steel undine quarterstaff without paying for special materials. The RAW continues on to state that undine weapons may be created using special materials, giving examples of the two most common.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Undines incorporate a unique design when crafting shafted weapons such as quarterstaves, spears, and tridents. Instead of a solid shaft, the weapon is built around a pipe of wood or metal, with the butt end sealed and the front end left open. As a full-round action, an undine can make a single melee attack with the weapon and use her hydraulic push spell-like ability against the target of that melee attack. The weapon otherwise functions like a standard weapon of its type and can be made of special materials (such as mithral or adamantine), and masterwork qualityEmphasis mine.
The description says wood or metal can be used, but does not limit that description to specific weapons, i.e. you can make a steel undine quarterstaff without paying for special materials. The RAW continues on to state that undine weapons may be created using special materials, giving examples of the two most common.
Hmm. OK. I think I can get on board with this. I see your interpretation of it, and stepping back to view the larger picture, I believe this is what is intended.
I drop my objection to undine, metal quarterstaffs.