I was thinking about making an Investigator/Bard (using variant multiclassing) because I like the idea of a character that is great at knowledge skills without putting any ranks into knowledge skills. (I know, it's a silly idea for a character.)
Now I'm wondering if there is anything I can do with those skills. I plan on taking the Inspirational Expertise talent but that seems to be fairly limited. Is there anything else I can do with a successful knowledge check?
You can learn monsters strengths and weaknesses. Information like elemental vulnerabilities/immunities, strong/weak saves, special abilities.
If you've already got the bestiaries memorized, and don't mind metagaming, that's probably not a big deal. Otherwise it can make a big difference in encounters.
You might want to also go evangelist level 5 for the +4 unskilled bonus and play an "old Race" to take Breadth of Experience. With a High Int you could easily be rocking a +12 without putting any skill points in at all
Knowledge checks greater than DC10 can't be made untrained.
Knight who says Meh wrote: I was thinking about making an Investigator/Bard (using variant multiclassing) because I like the idea of a character that is great at knowledge skills without putting any ranks into knowledge skills. (I know, it's a silly idea for a character.)
Now I'm wondering if there is anything I can do with those skills. I plan on taking the Inspirational Expertise talent but that seems to be fairly limited. Is there anything else I can do with a successful knowledge check?
Roleplaying wise quite a bit. Knowledge History, Local or Nobility may be useful in getting some interesting story bits from the DM.
i have a level 10 investigator and i have to say, i dont think you need the VMC. with free inspiration of 1D6+2 averageing out to 5 plus 5 int mod plus class skill bonus means knowledge checks are at level+13 already. not much need to go higher than that.
_Ozy_ wrote: Knowledge checks greater than DC10 can't be made untrained. Bards can right? The ones with Bardic Knowledge anyway...
Knowledge Local can be used for Gather Information checks.
Da Goblin wrote: Knowledge Local can be used for Gather Information checks. That's diplomacy to gather information, not knowledge local.
Knowledge local would indicate you already knew whatever the information was, not that you had to gather it.
_Ozy_ wrote: Knowledge checks greater than DC10 can't be made untrained. They can with Breadth of Xp
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Knowing is half the battle.
-Skeld
Claxon wrote: Da Goblin wrote: Knowledge Local can be used for Gather Information checks. That's diplomacy to gather information, not knowledge local.
Knowledge local would indicate you already knew whatever the information was, not that you had to gather it. Normally (often) in PFS scenarios/Mods/APs Gather Information checks can be done with either. (IMHO)The reasoning (I guess) would be that you have the Knowledge of "where/who/what" to get the information from.
PC1: "Who owns this building anyway?"
PC2 using Knowledge Local to gather Info: "If we go to the town hall and check the tax rolls, it'll tell us that info".
GM: "It takes you 1d4 hours to locate that information in town hall records."
Da Goblin wrote: Claxon wrote: Da Goblin wrote: Knowledge Local can be used for Gather Information checks. That's diplomacy to gather information, not knowledge local.
Knowledge local would indicate you already knew whatever the information was, not that you had to gather it. Normally (often) in PFS scenarios/Mods/APs Gather Information checks can be done with either. (IMHO)The reasoning (I guess) would be that you have the Knowledge of "where/who/what" to get the information from.
PC1: "Who owns this building anyway?"
PC2 using Knowledge Local to gather Info: "If we go to the town hall and check the tax rolls, it'll tell us that info".
GM: "It takes you 1d4 hours to locate that information in town hall records."
See, I've always interpreted that a different way. You have a check to find something out, you can use knowledge local or can use gather information to find out.
Knowledge local represents you already know the answer and simply recall it and speak it.
Diplomacy to Gather Information results in the above exchange you mention, where you walk about the streets asking people where you can go to find out who would know about the thing you're interested in.
The end result is ultimately the same, but how it actually happens is different. I never seen a single AP where they tell you to use Knowledge Local to Gather Information, as that is explicitly a function of Diplomacy. But have seen a piece of information be revealed by a successful check of either kind.
Fire Dancer wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: Knowledge checks greater than DC10 can't be made untrained. Bards can right? The ones with Bardic Knowledge anyway... Investigators also get Keen Recollection. Plus I plan on taking either Breadth of Experience or Improvisation depending on which race I end up choosing. So I'll actually have two or three ways of overcoming that limitation.
Torbyne wrote: i have a level 10 investigator and i have to say, i dont think you need the VMC. with free inspiration of 1D6+2 averageing out to 5 plus 5 int mod plus class skill bonus means knowledge checks are at level+13 already. not much need to go higher than that. You don't get the class skill bonus if you don't put any ranks into the skill plus the Bard VMC gets me Inspire Confidence/Courage so I can help out others.
Claxon wrote: Da Goblin wrote: Claxon wrote: Da Goblin wrote: Knowledge Local can be used for Gather Information checks. That's diplomacy to gather information, not knowledge local.
Knowledge local would indicate you already knew whatever the information was, not that you had to gather it. Normally (often) in PFS scenarios/Mods/APs Gather Information checks can be done with either. (IMHO)The reasoning (I guess) would be that you have the Knowledge of "where/who/what" to get the information from.
PC1: "Who owns this building anyway?"
PC2 using Knowledge Local to gather Info: "If we go to the town hall and check the tax rolls, it'll tell us that info".
GM: "It takes you 1d4 hours to locate that information in town hall records."
See, I've always interpreted that a different way. You have a check to find something out, you can use knowledge local or can use gather information to find out.
Knowledge local represents you already know the answer and simply recall it and speak it.
Diplomacy to Gather Information results in the above exchange you mention, where you walk about the streets asking people where you can go to find out who would know about the thing you're interested in.
The end result is ultimately the same, but how it actually happens is different. I never seen a single AP where they tell you to use Knowledge Local to Gather Information, as that is explicitly a function of Diplomacy. But have seen a piece of information be revealed by a successful check of either kind. It's kind of a moot point anyways because I plan on taking Diplomacy.
Knight who says Meh wrote: Torbyne wrote: i have a level 10 investigator and i have to say, i dont think you need the VMC. with free inspiration of 1D6+2 averageing out to 5 plus 5 int mod plus class skill bonus means knowledge checks are at level+13 already. not much need to go higher than that. You don't get the class skill bonus if you don't put any ranks into the skill plus the Bard VMC gets me Inspire Confidence/Courage so I can help out others. True but with 11-13 ranks per level you can afford to drop a few ranks into everything and still keep your important skills maxed out. a one point investment nets a D20+1D6+2+9 skill check. 26 meets most needs. eventually you up the INT mod and can change the D6 to a D8. I am running with a half elf so every four levels i get a static +1 to all those checks as well.
I just dont think the VMC cost is worth it when you could be spending feats on Extra Investigator Talent.
Torbyne wrote: Knight who says Meh wrote: Torbyne wrote: i have a level 10 investigator and i have to say, i dont think you need the VMC. with free inspiration of 1D6+2 averageing out to 5 plus 5 int mod plus class skill bonus means knowledge checks are at level+13 already. not much need to go higher than that. You don't get the class skill bonus if you don't put any ranks into the skill plus the Bard VMC gets me Inspire Confidence/Courage so I can help out others. True but with 11-13 ranks per level you can afford to drop a few ranks into everything and still keep your important skills maxed out. a one point investment nets a D20+1D6+2+9 skill check. 26 meets most needs. eventually you up the INT mod and can change the D6 to a D8. I am running with a half elf so every four levels i get a static +1 to all those checks as well.
I just dont think the VMC cost is worth it when you could be spending feats on Extra Investigator Talent. Yeah, but that's ten skill points if I drop one point on each knowledge check and it changes the character from the guy who just knows everything to the guy who knows everything because he's studied everything (like I said earlier, it's silly but that's my character concept).
You realize you can 'fluff' that skill point however you want? Call it 'real life experience' if you like, it doesn't have to represent burying your nose in books.
So what I'm gathering is other than making knowledge checks there's not much you can do with knowledge?
_Ozy_ wrote: You realize you can 'fluff' that skill point however you want? Call it 'real life experience' if you like, it doesn't have to represent burying your nose in books. I am aware of that, yes, but "putting a skill rank into every knowledge skill" kind of invalidates the concept of "no ranks in any knowledge skills."
'no ranks in any knowledge skill' isn't really a character concept, it's a mechanic.
A character concept is: my character doesn't like to study, or he hates books, or he can't read, and so on.
Now, if you mean a 'player' concept, like you want to see how good at knowledge you can make a character without spending any skill points on it, then have at it.
Also I'm leaning towards human and Improvisation/Improved Improvisation. I like Breadth of Experience because it's just one feat as opposed to three (on a character that's notably feat limited), but I like that Improvisation applies to all skills.
pretty much, yeah. knowledge lets you know things and knowing the things is the benefit. There are a few niche abilities that build off of that but i can only remember one off the top of my head. There is Kirin Style, Strike and Path that use knowledge checks but the action economy for that is really bad, you need two turns to get the attack bonus and you have to use your swift actions for both of those turns to do it.
Oh and remember to use Tears to Wine with some of your level 1 extracts. nice, long duration, boost to int checks.
_Ozy_ wrote: 'no ranks in any knowledge skill' isn't really a character concept, it's a mechanic.
A character concept is: my character doesn't like to study, or he hates books, or he can't read, and so on.
Now, if you mean a 'player' concept, like you want to see how good at knowledge you can make a character without spending any skill points on it, then have at it.
If calling it a player concept instead of a character concept makes it more acceptable to you, then I am absolutely okay with that. That wasn't really what I wanted the focus of the discussion to be.
Torbyne wrote:
Oh and remember to use Tears to Wine with some of your level 1 extracts. nice, long duration, boost to int checks.
Not sure I know what that is. What book is it in?
Knight who says Meh wrote: Torbyne wrote:
Oh and remember to use Tears to Wine with some of your level 1 extracts. nice, long duration, boost to int checks.
Not sure I know what that is. What book is it in? Its from Arcane Anthology, so fairly newish i guess?
School transmutation; Level alchemist 1, bard 1, cleric 2, druid 1, medium 1, occultist 1, shaman 1, sorcerer/wizard 2, witch 2
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a single grape)
EFFECT
Range 10 ft.
Target 1 cu. ft./2 levels of liquid (see text)
Duration 10 minutes/level
Saving Throw Will negates (object); Spell Resistance yes (object)
DESCRIPTION
This spell turns nonmagic liquids—including spoiled, rotten, diseased, poisonous, or otherwise contaminated drinks, tears, seawater, and similar fluids—into mead or wine of average quality. This spell does not prevent subsequent natural decay or spoilage.
Unholy water and similar liquids of significance are spoiled by tears to wine, but the spell has no effect on creatures of any type or on magic potions.
Creatures that drink the mead or wine created by this spell become sharp-witted and clear-minded, gaining a +2 enhancement bonus on all Intelligence- and Wisdom-based skill checks. This increases to a +5 bonus at caster level 9th, and to +10 (the maximum) at caster level 15th.
Basically you get to pretentiously drink wine and critic things better. It makes average quality booze though so you are able to avoid the PBR/Hipsterness the spell would otherwise force on you.
i use this with my investigator pretty much always for the extra +5 to pretty much all checks (yay for the empiricist archetype!) Pairs well with a flask of endless sake for being high fantasy Tony Stark.
Hmm, hadn't noticed that spell before. I presume the listed duration is for the Int/Wis bonus? Is the transformation an instantaneous effect, or is that also for the same duration?
It is a little fuzzy. once you are creating several gallons of wine, just how many 6 oz drinks can you pull from a single casting? basically you could, at higher levels, fuel a research binge and discover... everything.
i am inclined to believe that you add the extract/target the spell at a liquid and the spell and bonus both start their timer at that point, if you drink it or not.
Yeah, since the spell talks about subsequent decay, I would suggest that the spell does an instantaneous transformation, but it only confers the benefits until the end of the listed duration. Someone can choose to drink any time up until the duration, and gain the benefit for the time that remains.
agreed. though the wine stays wine afterwards. so, yay for that.
You can drink and know things.
Skill unlocks from Unchained make knowledge even stronger.
"10 Ranks: When you successfully identify a creature, you gain a +1 competence bonus on attack rolls, opposed ability checks, skill checks, and caster level checks against creatures of that kind (e.g., glabrezu demons, but not other demons or evil outsiders) for 1 minute. This bonus increases by 1 for every 5 ranks beyond 10 you possess in that Knowledge skill."
It makes you into a flat-track bully, because you are disproportionately stronger against weaker enemies, but saving resources is no bad thing. Knowledge takes no time so you can identify any enemy as you encounter them with no limit. It depends. Something like max ranks in Know Planes and the Signature Skill feat gives you a +3 caster level against Devils and Demons and you'll always beat a weaker fiend. It might be a good feat if you are v high level, fighting a lot of extra-planar nasties and trying to squeeze every last Caster Level out.
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