Puppetmaster Magus experience?

[Markov Spiked Chain]

Has anyone played a Puppetmaster Magus? Any experiences to share?
Any cool ideas about how to use it?

I just noticed the AT, it looks like it could be a lot of fun and very different gameplay from a normal Magus.

The cool parts:
Add all Bard spells to the Magus list.
Arcane pool to add Enchantment/Illusion DC.
Cast an enchantment spell on a target as a swift action when it fails a save against any of your spells. (instead of Spell Strike)
Maintain one Concentration Illusion spell as a free action if an Enchanted target can see it.

But Spell Combat only works with Illusion/Enchantment spells.

I'm toying with mixing in some Mesmerist and probably Threatening Illusion or some other Illusion based scheme.

Just taking one level to let you create Hour/level Illusions with a willing Charm Person seems like a lot of potential.

[avr]

You get a lot of use out of spell combat + daze at the lowest levels. More utility spells is very nice. I haven't played it past 3rd level tho'.

Also, you can easily have more skill points than class skills you want; the lure of traits which add to your class skill list is strong. I didn't use charmstrike but then I didn't think of using it on a willing target.

[SodiumTelluride]

No experience to report, but I'm currently playing a character in PFS which I seriously debated rebuilding as a puppetmaster magus. The main con for me was that a puppetmaster won't get much mileage out of his abilities (as cool as they are) until higher levels when he has a good number of spells per day to play with-- and he'll never have a lot of them. (Then again, my character in question is a sandman bard-- an archetype you could make a similar criticism about).

[Kurald Galain]

The puppetmaster is a great debuffer. In a single round, you can cast a debuff at a group of enemies, add a second debuff to an enemy failing its save, then step next to it and make a full attack. Feats and items that further cripple your enemies work well with this (e.g. Frostbite as a touch attack + Enforcer + Cruel weapon). Since most of the Magus's defensive buffs are illusions, you can still use those with spell combat, and that's a great combat opener.

[PhD. Okkam]

And what useful spells from the bard can take for Puppetmaster Magus?

[Markov Spiked Chain]

Hideous Laughter, Heroism, and Good Hope are good starts.
Liberating Command,
Acute Senses, Gallant Inspiration,
Arcane Concordance(!),
Freedom of Movement, Echolocation

I'm liking this idea more and more.

[PhD. Okkam]

Markov Spiked Chain wrote:

Hideous Laughter, Heroism, and Good Hope are good starts.

Liberating Command,
Acute Senses, Gallant Inspiration,
Arcane Concordance(!),
Freedom of Movement, Echolocation

I'm liking this idea more and more.

Wonderful! And even the classic spell: Silence!

[plaidwandering]

Arcane strike/riving strike to debuff saves

[avr]

Would variant multiclassing as a bard be worth it to use the bard spells which depend on performance? Only from 7th level onwards of course.

Even without that, Heightened Awareness, Charitable Impulse, Hold Person, getting Versatile Weapon a level early is nice, and many out of combat spells like Glibness are more than handy.

[PhD. Okkam]

Here I think, it is better to dex build or strength build?
At Intellect will certainly be a priority.

[Markov Spiked Chain]

I ended up going with a Wayang, Dex based scimitar Puppetmaster (for PFS, I started at 3rd from GM credit.)

I've only played two sessions so far, but I'm enjoying it. Low level Magi are really short on spells though, and Puppetmaster can't rely on faux dual wielding through Spellstrike+Cantrip. But Daze+stab has worked at least once.

I took Familiar Arcana at 3rd, for a flying Figment Rhampo familiar, with Reach evolution so it can flank. Cast Charm Person (3 hours) on it when we start adventuring. Then I start up a Minor Image of a Wayang rogue name Parani who speaks in sign language and sneaks ahead of the group some. I'm amused at the idea of a party member who's a figment of a familiar, who's a figment of my character (who's imaginary.)

I just picked up Heroism, I think that'll be a nice boost. It also qualifies as an enchantment on another creature if I buff someone.

I'm toying with Wayang Spellhunter and Encouraging spell at level 7 to get +3 Good Hope for the party.

What I'm not sure of at this point is whether my melee damage is actually worth investing much in going forward.

[Wally the Wizard]

I hadn't paid much attention to this archetype before but now that I'm looking at it. Holy crap. This is a huge upgrade. Not for the Magus persay, but as a 1 level dip for any bard. The way it's written is that you treat bard spells as Magus spells. That means raw a puppet Master 1/ bard 19 can cast all his bard spells with spell combat. A single level dip that basically gives you a free quicken spell every round. That's a huge boost even restricted to illusions and enchantments.

[nicholas storm]

The FAQ on ultimate magic says that won't work. You will need a 6 level dip into magus to get broad study.

Magus, Spell Combat: What spells can I cast when using spell combat?
The relevant text of the ability is:

"As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty)."

The spell you cast when using spell combat has to be a magus spell you know, and it must be a magus spell prepared with one of your magus spell slots.

(Other magus abilities may modify what spells can be used with spell combat. For example, the broad study magus arcana explicitly states the magus can use spell combat to cast spells from the selected non-magus spellcasting class.)

[Brew Bird]

I combined the Puppetmaster with the Hexcrafter to make a really solid illusionist debuffer. I mainly used spell combat in order to avoid attacks of opportunity, rather than for damage, but the character was a lot of fun.

Consider picking up Deific Obedience for Mahathallah to get +2 to all your illusion DCs.

[Zwordsman]

noting to read this more as it goes on.
though, i am sad about the name... Since I'd love if they'd actually had some weird puppets haha.

but seems like a fun class, i wonder how it goes compared with mesmer.

[Ravingdork]

Doesn't a lot of illusions having a duration of concentration kind of put a dent in illusory spell combat? Also wouldn't the reliance on enchantment and illusions prove detrimental at higher levels when true seeing and immunity to mind-affecting effects start to become common?

[Markov Spiked Chain]

@Brew Bird, I really wanted Hexcrafter too, but by strict reading they both modify the spell list. I'm sure any reasonable home GM would happily let you combine them though since they're both purely additive.

@Zwordsman, I've been playing a Mesmerist lately as well, they've definitely got a similar feel. Mesmerist is definitely more effective as a controller because of the save debuff. Puppetmaster seems much more about the permanent Silent Image. Ireally wish there was a good way to combine them/dip, but the DC loss from having two separate stats is painful. An Int based Mesmerist Archetype (that stacks with Umbral Mesmerist, if I'm making my wish list) would be nice.

[Markov Spiked Chain]

@Ravingdork, I'm only worried through PFS levels. But I'm not sure how any illusion/enchantment caster gets by at high levels. Hopefully the intersection between True Seeing and Mind-Affecting Immunity is small?

I cast my Concentration-duration illusions before combat, through The Show Must Go On. For Spell Combat use, I'd expect Vanish, Mirror Image, Displacement, Improved Invisibility, and Mislead to be common. And you can also cast enchantments, so Daze, Hideous Laughter, Suggestion, etc are all viable.

The ideal round is something like: Silent Image walks past an enemy and provokes an AoO. They fail the save, you cast Hideous Laughter as a swift. Then you Mirror Image/Hideous Laughter a second target/Vanish and stab someone.

I'm thinking about a 1 level Wizard dip for Foresight school goodies, Spell Focus, and more level 1 spells. Or a Mesmerist dip, but Swift action to Stare is actually rough.

[Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti]

Is it a PFs legal archetype?

[Markov Spiked Chain]

Yes, it's from Arcane Anthology, all Archetypes there are PFS legal from Additional Resources. I got worried for a second. :)

[PhD. Okkam]

And if you use Oneiric Horror with a spell combat use?

[Markov Spiked Chain]

Wow, hadn't seen Oneiric Horror, that does look pretty cool. I'm not sure it's much better than Hideous Laughter unless you're doing Spell Focus(Illusion)? But it's definitely more thematically cool for my Wayang.
Looks pretty cool for a Medium as well since it's a level lower.

[Zwordsman]

hmm wish they had mroe shadow based spells.

would be cool for shadow control concepts as well as the illusion stuff
plus then you could be a shadow puppeteer

[Markov Spiked Chain]

Yeah, unfortunately, Shadow stuff is spread all over the place. Some is Illusion, most is Conjuration, darkness stuff is all Evocation.

They do get Shadow Trap from the Bard spell list though. It's pretty effective against melee if you win initiative.

[PhD. Okkam]

Shadow Enchantment оn the third level of spells, Shadowform and Shadow Conjuration at the fourth level.
Puppetmaster at higher levels will be stronger.