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Honestly, the easiest solution on the DM's end is to just limit how much you're allowed to rest.
The downside to throwing, say, 3 bombs per round (2 from BAB and +1 from rapid shot), is that you only have 8+Int mod bombs per day. That's probably, what, four full attacks for the entire day and then you've burned your resources?
It also cost you a discovery (Fast Bombs).
I realize that our gaming group's style is "unusual" to some, but we always push extremely hard in between rest periods. Part of that is gentlemen's agreement, but another part of that is that we've all experienced greedily resting only to be punished for doing so. There have actually been multiple occasions where we've gained two levels in between rests, to give you an idea of how far we'll push before backing off.
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Weaknesses/ issues with bombs that should not be forgotten: they are limited number per day; they are subject to the standard ranged attack problems of cover, attacking into melee, and range penalties; they are AOE. Sure there are feats and discoveries to cover some of these issues, but if you spend all of your build resources on one thing, you should be good at it.
Dragons have servants. Servants are mad your trying to kill their master/god/leader. A few of them are monks with the scailed fist archetype (I think that's what its called) specifically to provide a challenge to you.
Monks tend to have good touch AC, and if he doesn't like the monk flavor he could also just give the bad guys some potions of resist energy. That should make the hits you land a bit less impactful, bringing you more in line with the rest of the party.
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I'd recommend that your DM review the alchemist class including the FAQ and errata to make sure they are running it correctly. Touch AC to hit the target but only splash damage to the surrounding squares. There are many ways to err when running this class. Alchemists aren't broken, bad players and DMs run them incorrectly.
The greater/true dragons tend to have spellcasting - Resist Energy would effectively limit you, or make you get creative to use enough power to be of use but still not your full power.
Or minions to cast some low-level resist spells on it, or those monks derpdidruid mentioned.
(As I've learned from running Hell's Vengeance with an Alchemical Sapper Alchemist in the party, the problem is that stacking everything of importance on one enemy is something the alchemist counters.)
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For Dragons, there's also the spell Scales of Deflection which only buys them one round, but does buy them that and is pretty neat.
Resist Energy also helps a lot, and can indeed make a Dragon basically immune to a particular Alchemist depending on the Dragon's color and the Alchemist's discoveries. It should also be on most Dragon's spell lists most of the time.
How big is your party? If it's even a little bit average or bigger in size, most fights should have multiple opponents. If the opponents stay just a little bit away from each other, you can only focus fire on one of them at a time.
I've only run one or two alchemists, but they were fun to GM "against." They're pretty versatile, so you should be doing something different in each battle. Sometimes toss bombs, sometimes HULK out, sometimes hand out infusions to buff and/or heal, sometimes do archery/crossbowery, sometimes tank, sometimes debuff with poisons, etc. etc.
Want to know how to kill a mid-high level alchemist ? With level 1 NPCs ?
Can you say level 1 Dex 15 Monks with snatch arrows (yes you can have it at level 1 , imp unarmed strike free, deflect arrows bonus feat, snatch arrows level 1 feat.)
DM "You just walked into an unholy temple the monks look pissed. "
Alchemist " no problem I throw one force bomb at each of the nearest , that's 7 bombs total...*rolls*.... heh like I need to"
DM " you hit all of th..."
Alchemsit " sweet I roll dam.."
DM " I'm not finished , you hit all 7 but they catch you bombs in flight and redirect them back towards you. What's your touch AC ?
Alchemsit" wait don't they roll to catch them ?"
DM "Nope, your touch AC please"
Alchemist " ummm like 13"
DM " 5 of the force bombs hit you direct, the other 2 hit you for splash damage, now you can roll your damage"
Alchemist " *Sqweak*"
And that with a bunch of level 1 throw away's he hasent even seen the BBEG monk yet.
Also wind walls ! Oh look 30% of your bombs miss
Displacement of look half your bombs miss.
Mirror image , well 5 bombs later your hitting the right target.
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Phasics, that's a cool plan. Adding my 2cp worth of pedantry:
Bombs are unstable, and if not used in the round they are created, they degrade and become inert
So the monks in question need to go after the alchemist in the same round. I thought the feat Throw Back Arrows would help, but it specifies ammunition, which bombs are not.
Phasics, that's a cool plan. Adding my 2cp worth of pedantry:
Bombs are unstable, and if not used in the round they are created, they degrade and become inertSo the monks in question need to go after the alchemist in the same round. I thought the feat Throw Back Arrows would help, but it specifies ammunition, which bombs are not.
No, but they are Thrown Weapons, where Snatch Arrows comes in, with the line "Thrown weapons can immediately be thrown back as an attack against the original attacker (even though it isn't your turn) or kept for later use."
Weaknesses/ issues with bombs that should not be forgotten: they are limited number per day; they are subject to the standard ranged attack problems of cover, attacking into melee, and range penalties; they are AOE. Sure there are feats and discoveries to cover some of these issues, but if you spend all of your build resources on one thing, you should be good at it.
Exactly these things.
You probably have about 11 or 12 bombs per day at 8th level. With your BAB and taking the feat Rapid Shot you can use 3 bombs per round, assuming you have Fast Bombs discover. You could use up to 5 if you had Two Weapon Fighting and Improved TWF (but it's not worth it IMO).
This means about 4 rounds per day where you can throw all your bombs.
Your bombs do 4d6 each, so you can do 12d6 in the round, average of 42 damage. But it's fire damage, which is commonly resisted. Unless you add another discovery to change it.
For context, at this level a wizard can cast scorching ray that will fire 2 rays that deal 4d6 each.
The other thing to remember are penalties, which you are probably forgetting OP because a lot of people do. Rapid Shot is a -2 to hit. Firing into melee (if applicable) -4 to hit. This probably doesn't come up much since hopefully you're not throwing bombs on top of allies, but if you've got selective bombs then you do have to worry. Bombs only have a 20ft range increment, -2 for every increment beyond (21-40ft -2 to hit, 41-60 ft -4 to hit, etc). Cover causes a -4 to hit (and any squares occupied by a creature between you and your target count as cover). It's very easy to have a -8 or more to your attack roll just from attacking into melee and attacking through an ally's square. So make sure you're applying those penalties.
Personally, I think a grenadier alchemist with Explosive Missile or the Launching Crossbow + Crossbow Mastery builds are scarier than a Fast Bombs build; and I'm with Claxon that when you compare this to what a wizard is doing, you're really not coming out that far ahead.
Yeah, at this level, you can have some devastating nova rounds, but you're spending so many resources to accomplish your trick. It - as others have said - *should* be good if you've devoted so much to it.
Compare even to a natural-attacking vivisectionist/beastmorph who doesn't *have* a daily limit. (Or the aforementioned barbarian.)
Yeah, it's true that you can't cave to the 5 minute adventuring day.
Make sure your group fight 4 - 5 fights a day by conferring with your GM. You can only pull off this crazy routine 3 times a day, and aren't even necessarily likely to end a combat by doing so. At 42 average damage for level 8 that only really 1/2 to 2/3 the hp of many creatures.
Range increment on bombs is 20', max range is x5 so 100'. The alchemist is at -10 while even the short bow is only in the first increment so -2. Smart archers set up behind cover could provide a decent challenge to the whole group without specifically picking out the alchemist.
If the BBEG is a dragon (flyer) and it hears about the alchemist, it just has to stay at longer range until the alchemist is out of bombs.
As a general rule, Alchemists hate having to make Will saves.
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If an Alchemist with Fast Bombs is BREAKING your GM's game, then your GM is doing it wrong.
Or, you know, it's just a really powerful ability that targets one of the main foes of the game's weaknesses.
Of all the classes that can break a game, Alchemist tends to rank lower on the list, Your GM is lucky none of you are playing a real threat build. He obviously lacks imagination if he can't think of any pther ways to challenge you and your...three mightyish rounds of bomb throwing per day. Also, a lot of creatures resist fire, pro tip.
Hello all. Now that my alchemist is lvl 8 and getting multiple bombs per round, and hitting touch... My DM is not happy at all. For the most part, as long as I don't roll a 1 I can hit with every bomb. He feels that class is broken and is having a hard time figuring out what to throw at us other than trying to focus all mobs on me every battle, which would suck because I'm squishy. He found that demons and devils have a higher touch, dex, and resistance to pretty much anything I throw at them, but doesn't want to change his whole dragon campaign into a demon & devil campaign.
Do you all have any suggestions as to help balance this back out?
Dragons are spellcasters. Some of the savvy ones have Resist Energy and Protection from Energy in thier repetroire. There are other spells that can screw with ranged attacks such as wind wall, or mirror image just to name a few. Your DM needs to vary his tactics more and really study up on his dragons.
I think Swoosh is implying that firearms let rogues sneak attack at ranged against touch ACs. Maybe not every round, but possibly every other round.
The bypassing DR bit is a little misleading because most people I know, when they talk about bypassing DR are referring to using Silver against a Lycanthrope or something.
And hey, for the one combat you spent a bunch of your daily resources on, shouldn't you feel strong?
Oh, I'm not saying the generally are either. Just that, in this specific case(low Touch AC foes), it might be a little OP. It's no Wizard with Disintegrate or Enervation, but it's still up there.
I have had alchemist in my game and never found them to be problem. They can nova pretty good but run out resources fast. In tough fight they can use up all their bombs. Next encounter I can through weak opponents and still challenge the party as the alchemist out of resources.
So days encounters might APL equal, APL+1, APL+2, APL+1, APL+1 by the 3rd encounter the alchemist is out of bombs.
Personally, I'd like to say that I actually find bombs builds to be kind of weak because of their limited uses. Sure, you can nova real hard, for 3 rounds. And then you're done, and you've had to invest feats and discoveries into being able to nova for 3 rounds.
Personally I prefer archetypes that trade out bombs and give me something that will last longer.
mirror image doesn't it get ruined by being damage. and bombs do splash damage.....
splash damage dose not effect mirror image. the images only pop if directly hi by an attack.
Large numbers of moderately-powerful enemies will do well against bomb-focused alchemists. You might do high damage to a single target, but the splash damage is negligible.
Depends on the build. Certain Alchemists can get pretty high damage with their bombs splash damage but those are more controller orientated.
Personally, I'd like to say that I actually find bombs builds to be kind of weak because of their limited uses. Sure, you can nova real hard, for 3 rounds. And then you're done, and you've had to invest feats and discoveries into being able to nova for 3 rounds.
Personally I prefer archetypes that trade out bombs and give me something that will last longer.
This is why I'm a big fan of Favored Class Bonuses that give me extra bombs (or extra damage on bombs, so that I don't have to throw as many to end an encounter!). It's a relatively minor resource investment that allows the Alchemist to get an extra round of full nova, or multiple extra rounds of throwing a bomb a turn (which is sometimes all that is needed).
But the great thing about Alchemist is that they have other things to do besides throw bombs all day. Even when they run out of bombs, they still have extracts and the mutagen (provided the alchemist didn't use it to squeeze out a little more accuracy/damage out of the bombs, which imo is not a smart use of the mutagen). Which is enough to still contribute to encounters, just not dominate them.
So yeah, running out of bombs is certainly a weakness, but not so much that it destroys the build for me. Just means I have to be careful about resource management.