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I've been busy in the limelight making this guide on a build that I believe to be really incredible in the vein of creating Sap Masters. So, why is it different from any other Sap Master specialist guide?
Because you aren't simply using a sap. You ARE the sap. (As the title suggests.)
**EDIT**
The guide is a little bit over 24 pages long. I tried to keep it condensed, but it is step-by-step and is thorough in its explanations and suggestions.
Yes, I'm aware this isn't the greatest character type to build, but for those who want to build a Sap Master, give the guide a readthrough and pick up some tips for your own character!
Feel free to ask any questions, voice opinions/concerns, and so on. I hope you guys enjoy it!
Headband of Ninjitsu should probably get a mention in the main section, especially for brawlers that don't get AC from wisdom.
Also, a second level of brawler gives you brawlers flurry which is getting the first twf feat for free.
Marking to come back to later.
@ Kazaan: Sorry that the FAQ didn't provide that answer to you. I fixed that. It should now.
@ Chess Pwn: A lot of people would say that having better Will Saves is more important. I think it's fine where it's at, because most people will be more concerned with getting the Big 6, and would find them more valuable than the off-beat items.
Interesting point about the Brawler feat, but the big appeal to that build path is getting 11D6 Sneak Attack. Taking that 2nd level of Brawler would bring it down to the original capacity, which isn't horrible, but defeats the purpose (kind of/sort of).
What is the attraction for such a build?
to blow people up with non-lethal damage.
Are you sure the 3d6 sneak attack prerequisite is met for sap adept by the flurry of blow mantis monk?
yes, you have 3d6 sneak attack so you qualify for the feat. But i'd think the feat wouldn't turn on if you're not getting the 3d6 sneak attack off.
Ah, that makes sense. You can take it then, but it would only apply when flurrying until your base sneak attack was 3d6.
Are you sure the 3d6 sneak attack prerequisite is met for sap master by the flurry of blow mantis monk?
FTFY. Sap Adept is met by 1st level. Sap Master requires 3D6, which can be acquired by 4th level, minimum (including the Snakebite Brawler cheese), or by 5th level most commonly.
For reference, the Mantis Monk entry says:
At 2nd level, a monk of the mantis gains the sneak attack ability.
This ability functions as the rogue ability of the same name, except it can be used only during a flurry of blows. The initial sneak attack damage is +1d6, and the damage increases by 1d6 every 4 levels beyond 2nd.
So the ability says that they outright gain Sneak Attack, and then further explains that it functions as the Rogue ability, except the sneak attack dice only applies during a Flurry of Blows (with a Full Attack Action, it's basically all the time).
So yes, it should be sufficient enough to qualify.
@ Chess Pwn: The feat doesn't care how you're getting 3D6 Sneak Attack, or the ramifications for it. A better argument would be whether D4 or D8 sneak attack dice count as D6 Sneak Attack dice for the purposes of feats and abilities that qualify for it, but even then, the intent is clear that it cares about how much sneak attack dice you have, not whether it's a D3 or a D10.
to blow people up with non-lethal damage.
Do you get a lot more than lethal damage??
So the ability says that they outright gain Sneak Attack, and then further explains that it functions as the Rogue ability, except the sneak attack dice only applies during a Flurry of Blows (with a Full Attack Action, it's basically all the time).
So yes, it should be sufficient enough to qualify.
@ Chess Pwn: The feat doesn't care how you're getting 3D6 Sneak Attack, or the ramifications for it. A better argument would be whether D4 or D8 sneak attack dice count as D6 Sneak Attack dice for the purposes of feats and abilities that qualify for it, but even then, the intent is clear that it cares about how much sneak attack dice you have, not whether it's a D3 or a D10.
So at 5th level, going the monk route, you have 2d6 and 3d6 when flurrying. Do you agree that you would not get the benefit of Sap Master when not making a flurry?
thing is, you do have 3d6 sneak attack. Just some only applies to damage in a flurry. thus the feat always applies since you always qualify for it.
Chess Pwn has properly stated my stance on the matter, and the RAW supports it. RAI is debatable, but there is argument for both sides on that front (though the side that is "for" it working, there is considerably more evidence to support it), meaning at best, it's table variation, based on a very stingy reading.
So until something definitive says otherwise, it should still hold.
to blow people up with non-lethal damage.Do you get a lot more than lethal damage??
Around twice as much.
You knock the sense out of foes with a well-timed surprise attack.
Prerequisite: Sneak attack +3d6, Sap Adept.
Benefit: Whenever you use a bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal sneak attack damage to a flat-footed opponent, roll your sneak attack dice twice, totaling the results as your nonlethal sneak attack damage for that attack.
so this build is hoping for surprise rounds from lv5 until lv8 when it gets shatter defenses to pull off sap master, right?
A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables.
If you are not making a flurry, such as because you are only making a standard attack, then you do not have 3d6 sneak attack, so you would not be able to use Sap Master. That is until you level up and have a base of 3d6+ sneak attack to keep the feat always active.
What is the attraction for such a build?
I've already answered this in the FAQ section of the guide. It's actually the last question, right before the Conclusion.
Even despite that, you can still most certainly set up free Coup de Graces for your allies to accomplish against enemies susceptible to Non-lethal damage, which can make encounters much easier and less lethal.
Do you get a lot more than lethal damage??
For those who are susceptible to non-lethal damage, let's do the math. We shall presume our Sap guy is 8th level, and our enemy is likewise 8th level, and more martial-based than us.
A level 8 D10 hit dice character with 18 Constitution, Favored Class, and Toughness would have 98 hit points on average (that's actually highballing it, it'd probably be more in the 70's-80's range, since it's doubtful they'll have an 18 Constitution and Toughness). Since that's the standard, let's put it to the test.
At that current level, the Sap Master character would deal 1D6+8 (base unarmed strike damage plus Dexterity and Enhancements), or 11.5 damage on a hit, which would only scratch the surface. Against enemies who are immune to Sneak Attack, this is okay, but clearly not your forte, so unarchetyped Barbarians, Rogues, Elementals, creatures with Fortification properties, etc. So yes, there will be situations where the build isn't exactly glamorous, but so are so many other "great" builds.
Moving on with the standard Sneak Attack, that tacks on another 4D6 damage, or 14 on average, so 25.5 damage total, which is (at best) 25% of the target's hit points. Not that great, but certainly an improvement. This is the damage you'd probably use against enemies immune to Non-lethal Damage, such as Undead or Constructs.
Now, with Non-lethal, which applies to everything else, we're tacking on another 4D6+8 (due to the Sap Master and Sap Adept feats), which means you're dealing an additional 22 damage on top of that, so you're resulting in 47.5 damage, ~50% of the enemy's hit points. Now we're talking some big damage, the likes of which can drop those who are (most likely) less fortuitous, within a single round, no less. And that's only at 8th level; the scaling you receive with feats like Knockout Artist, Hammer the Gap, Piranha Strike, and so on, will really put enemies on their butts, and fast.
If you have TWF or Flurry of Blows, you'll have two attacks at highest BAB (if the latter, no penalty on to-hit either), this means that if both attacks hit (fairly likely), that enemy is inches away from being knocked unconscious. For enemies who are less fortuitous than our example character above, it's fairly likely that you can defeat a creature in a single round, which means you're still contributing just as well as the other guys by "effectively" removing pieces from the board.
so this build is hoping for surprise rounds from lv5 until lv8 when it gets shatter defenses to pull off sap master, right?
Flank buddies work too. They're probably more commonplace than surprise rounds. But with enough Stealth, anything is possible...
@ Tarantula: Yes, you do. It's just you're only applying 2D6 sneak attack because the other D6 only applies on certain conditions, which you don't fulfill.
That doesn't mean you don't have 3D6 sneak attack as a class feature, even though the ability specifically says that you get the 1D6 as the sneak attack class feature, which means for feat qualification (and application) purposes, I fulfill it for Sap Master, at all times.
Are you correct in that on regular attacks, I only apply 2D6? Yes. You are. For standard attacks, you're only getting 2D6, because the D6 from Mantis Monk only applies during Flurry of Blows.
But that doesn't mean you stop fulfilling the pre-requisites for Sap Master, because you still have 3D6 Sneak Attack as a class feature, which is what you need in order to select (and use) Sap Master as a feat.
flanking doesn't trigger sap master. Sap master is only against flat-footed foes. Not all sneak attacks.
@ Tarantula: Yes, you do. It's just you're only applying 2D6 sneak attack because the other D6 only applies on certain conditions, which you don't fulfill.
That doesn't mean you don't have 3D6 sneak attack as a class feature, even though the ability specifically says that you get the 1D6 as the sneak attack class feature, which means for feat qualification (and application) purposes, I fulfill it for Sap Master, at all times.
Are you correct in that on regular attacks, I only apply 2D6? Yes. You are. For standard attacks, you're only getting 2D6, because the D6 from Mantis Monk only applies during Flurry of Blows.
At 2nd level, a monk of the mantis gains the sneak attack ability.
This ability functions as the rogue ability of the same name, except it can be used only during a flurry of blows. The initial sneak attack damage is +1d6, and the damage increases by 1d6 every 4 levels beyond 2nd.
This ability replaces the monk's 2nd-, 6th-, 10th-, 14th-, and 18th-level bonus feats.
I disagree. You have sneak attack 2d6. You also have sneak attack 3d6 when making a flurry of blows. I do think this reliable enough to allow it to count for the pre-req, but unless you are making a flurry of blows you should not get the benefits of Sap Master as you do not meet the prerequisite at that time.
I'll make a post in rules questions, since this is advice to discuss further.
I wonder if this type of build can be hybridized into a Face character? (This would require actual investment in -- or at least not dumping -- Charisma, since you aren't going to be able to take care of all of the Charisma-based skills with traits.) Preferably without trading out Trapfinding.
So this seems like a fun theory crafting exercise. But would you really want to play this in a real game?
^How about:
You are agents of a Good organization (the government of Andoran or the church of Sarenrae, for instance). You need to take out enemy agents quickly, but take whatever opportunities you can to avoid killing them, for many of them are indoctrinated into working for Evil organizations, and you recognize that many of them also have families that care about them and that they care about; even some of the others might potentially be redeemed. And even your bosses feel the same way, because they know that it does your organization no long-term good if you leave a trail of blood and broken families in your wake.
The party:
Scout (and primary Skill Monkey and secondary Front-Liner): Uses the above mostly-Rogue build, preferably with a variant that doesn't trade out Trapfinding. Also preferably figuring out a feasible way to develop more social skills than just Intimidate, even if a secondary rather than the primary Face.
Front-Liner: Cavalier (preferably with Order of the Blue Rose) or Redeemer Paladin (either of these may also be a primary Face).
Divine Caster (and secondary Front-Liner and secondary Skill Monkey): Inquisitor of a Neutral Good or Lawful Good deity in good standing with the organization (and preferably with some skill in non-lethal subdual). (I thought about Warpriest or Evangelist Cleric, but Inquisitor is probably more the way to go for secret or semi-secret agent types.)
Arcane Caster (also fills in some of the higher levels of what is for practical purposes divine casting even though technically arcane, and Knowledge Monkey): Hedge Witch/Herb Witch or maybe Hedge Witch/Hex Channeler (if another Face is needed, actually invest a bit in Charisma and go VMC Bard).
While that seems like a noble cause if you're rolling 22d6 Sneak Attack you just might kill someone with NL damage...
haha, killing someone with non-lethal has to do 2xMAX HP + con score damage. At the level you're rolling 22d6 max 132 damage would kill somoene with 60 max hp and a con score of 12. If things you're fighting at lv20 when you pull off 22d6 sneak attack has 60 max hp and con score of 12 then they deserve to die to a max damage NL sneak attack.
Some questions:
1) Why not use the base rogue -- this gives you the incredibly juicy Offensive/Defensive talent ... for a sap master, it is arguably the best in the game.
2) Why focus so heavily on dex instead of str? Str comes online faster than Dex does, so early levels do more damage. Unless you are worried about init (AC is handled via offensive/defense talent)
3) Why not use merciful bows with blunt arrows to deal your sneak attack to flying creatures, at high levels the cost is negligible.
4) Have you thought about the talents to give you swift invisibility / improved invisibility?
5) Scout archetype is almost required for Sap Master builds as it helps you to reliably get off your better sneak attacks, as your opponent is flat-footed (unless it has uncanny dodge)
6) Have you looked at how much attack bonus you are giving up by dipping multiple 3/4 attack classes?
7) Snake Style and Panther Style are amazing for sap master builds -- anything that gives extra attacks is juicy, especially combined with Offensive Defense, these turn into amazing boosts to AC.
8) I would avoid Pirhanna Strike ... with the amount of damage / hit you will be doing without it, I'd hate to see you miss by one.
9) Full attacking isn't terribly important with a Sap Master, unless you frequently fight enemies clumped together as it doesn't take that many hits to drop the enemy.
Unchained gives free weapon finesse and free dex to damage and gets debilitating strike, which is kinda like a free offensive/defensive.
So for 1 and 2 the answer is to get all the free stuff and because of the free stuff dex based works well.6)Unchained monk is a full bab class. and the idea behind alchemist is -1 bab for +2 from mutagen = +1 for the dip plus 2 free damage.
I wonder if this type of build can be hybridized into a Face character? (This would require actual investment in -- or at least not dumping -- Charisma, since you aren't going to be able to take care of all of the Charisma-based skills with traits.) Preferably without trading out Trapfinding.
If you tacked on the Scaled Fist archetype, you theoretically could. You wouldn't be the best, but you would be adequate enough for the job if nobody else really wanted to do it, or you had nobody else who was more suitable for the job.
However, your Will Saves will be dog s#!@, and truth be told, I don't think you can apply Scaled Fist to the Mantis Monk archetype, because both modify/replace Bonus Feats (Mantis replaces a large sub-set, Scaled Fist modifies them entirely), based on the FAQ regarding Archetype Stacking, in that, since Scaled Fist modifies the Bonus Feats (the parent archetype), you can't take Mantis Monk because it modifies the sub-features (the feats per character level). Certainly worth a try, though...
Some questions:
1) Why not use the base rogue -- this gives you the incredibly juicy Offensive/Defensive talent ... for a sap master, it is arguably the best in the game.
2) Why focus so heavily on dex instead of str? Str comes online faster than Dex does, so early levels do more damage. Unless you are worried about init (AC is handled via offensive/defense talent)
3) Why not use merciful bows with blunt arrows to deal your sneak attack to flying creatures, at high levels the cost is negligible.
4) Have you thought about the talents to give you swift invisibility / improved invisibility?
5) Scout archetype is almost required for Sap Master builds as it helps you to reliably get off your better sneak attacks, as your opponent is flat-footed (unless it has uncanny dodge)
6) Have you looked at how much attack bonus you are giving up by dipping multiple 3/4 attack classes?
7) Snake Style and Panther Style are amazing for sap master builds -- anything that gives extra attacks is juicy, especially combined with Offensive Defense, these turn into amazing boosts to AC.
8) I would avoid Pirhanna Strike ... with the amount of damage / hit you will be doing without it, I'd hate to see you miss by one.
9) Full attacking isn't terribly important with a Sap Master, unless you frequently fight enemies clumped together as it doesn't take that many hits to drop the enemy.Unchained gives free weapon finesse and free dex to damage and gets debilitating strike, which is kinda like a free offensive/defensive.
So for 1 and 2 the answer is to get all the free stuff and because of the free stuff dex based works well.
6)Unchained monk is a full bab class. and the idea behind alchemist is -1 bab for +2 from mutagen = +1 for the dip plus 2 free damage.
1 and 2, he covered. 6, you also add to Initiative, Reflex Saves, and so on, and you're only losing 1 BAB from the 3/4 BAB paradigm. It's not much worse than going Eldritch Archer Magus into Arcane Archer PRC.
3. I'm not sure it would work, because it must deal non-lethal damage by default. If it's modified or toggled to deal non-lethal damage, it won't work. Unarmed Strikes work because they're specifically mentioned as working, and plus are stated to deal non-lethal damage by default.
4. Talents aren't that powerful. They never were. At best, you're getting Vanish 1/day for 2 rogue talents. A Ring of Invisibility would fulfill that function better, which I do recommend as an option.
5. It's about as much required as any other archetype, which they aren't. A recommendation, perhaps, but not required by any means. Also, Scout doesn't trigger flat-footed effects, it just triggers sneak attack, which may or may not apply other effects that are dependant upon them being flat-footed.
7. They're recommended, but Pummeling Style is good too; counting DR only once for your attack routine is really nice.
8. Piranha Strike doesn't have to be used all the time. But for enemies with a lot of HP and low AC (read: Barbarians), it's great. It's also nice to deal some damage even with enemies being immune to Non-lethal, which Piranha Strike helps with. That's why I don't have it taken until 11th level, where you'll have decent enough to-hit.
9. Depends on the enemy. Full Attacks may not be necessary for all targets, namely the non-lethal susceptible ones. But for those who aren't susceptible to non-lethal or sneak attack? Tack on those hits.
Also worth noting that if you use Pathfinder Unchained Fractional Base Bonuses, multiclassing in 3/4 BAB classes in non-multiples of 4 doesn't automatically hurt you. (Unfortunately, last U heard, PFS doesn't allow this, even though it also cuts the cheese on stacking of starting bonuses of Saves.)
Also worth noting that if you use Pathfinder Unchained Fractional Base Bonuses, multiclassing in 3/4 BAB classes in non-multiples of 4 doesn't automatically hurt you. (Unfortunately, last U heard, PFS doesn't allow this, even though it also cuts the cheese on stacking of starting bonuses of Saves.)
I mean, on one hand, you don't suffer to-hit penalties just because of your weird class choices. On the other hand, you lack the oomph behind saves.
So really, all you're doing is substituting save benefits with to-hit benefits; which, depending on which classes you're taking, can be a real killer.
Classes with good Fortitude saves are kind of meh (because anything and everything that's thrown at you, can be immune to or have such a good saving throw on it anyway). Reflex saves are handy, but not required (depending on your build). Will saves are really the only kind that aren't truly worth the BAB penalty, but if you're getting only them, then...
And quite frankly, with this current build, I'd totally sacrifice +1 to my BAB in exchange for ~+4 Reflex Saves, +2 Fortitude Saves, and +2 Will Saves.