Sylph sorcerer : what am I doing wrong ?

[zerion69]

Not a beginner with Pathfinder but totally new to sorcerer character, I'm in need of advice to build a level 9 sorcerer.

Access to pathfinder resources is not limited (ie not PFS).

I intend to take Sage bloodline (ie Arcana wildblooded version)

Ok so after deep reading of numerous online guides, Human seems the best choice for sorcerer (from a technical point of view). Mainly for the alt racial trait that gives 20 more spells known on the long term (even if it doesn't give 9th level spells).

Now, second reading, Sylph get
- Darkvision : no brainer, always useful and important
- Permanent fly (at level 9) : same as Darkvision
- Spell like ability (feather fall) : avoiding to learn spell eventhough it's 1/day
- Limited Planeshift (at level 15) : limited but might be useful
- Outsider type : double edged but might work often at low levels in the "right" way (ie. defense)

Plus, 20 spells "lost" by sylph (vs human) can be overcomed with ring or page of spell knowledge

Of course, those innates abilities can be achieved with (precious) spells known and cast but our DM dispels a lot and uses frequently anti-magic areas.

I thought about using Racial Heritage feat (human feat) but that won't work with sylphs.

I get the impression Sylph sage sorcerer (ie INT based build) could be a bit better than human counterpart ? Any feedback would be appreciated :-)

[Saethori]

If you take the Mostly Human alternate racial (from Inner Sea Races), you can qualify for the Human FCB, giving you the best of both worlds. (Though you gain vulnerability to humanoid target effects too.)

[SheepishEidolon]

zerion69 wrote:

Plus, 20 spells "lost" by sylph (vs human) can be overcomed with ring or page of spell knowledge

Human's favored class bonus isn't that great. The new spell must be (at least) one level below your current highest, meaning you can only add cantrips at level 1 to 3. D'oh. At level 4 you know 3 first level spells already, plus one bloodline spell. Further, you can trade one regular spell against another (e.g. get rid of Sleep). Chances are you covered already most of the relevant spells because of this. One level later you get another known first level spell anyway. Starting at level 6, the pattern basically continues, just with higher spell levels...

Still, the FCB can be useful, but I wouldn't call it a game winner. Rather I'd go for the HP - or maybe the skill rank.

[nennafir]

Windy escape

It is like a lvl 4 spell disguised as a lvl 1 spell

[Dasrak]

None of the Sylph advantages come close to being worth 17 spells known (most people don't bother taking the extra cantrips known at level 1-3) over the course of your career. Darkvision is a 2nd level spell with hours/day duration, Overland Flight is a 5th level spell with hours/day duration (and you even get it as a bloodline spell), Feather Fall is a 1st level spell, and Plane Shift is a 7th level spell... five of the advantages you've listed for Sylphs can be duplicated by human Sorcerers with five spells known. The outsider typing is pretty niche, since many of the common humanoid-only spells can be blocked by protection from evil.

Now, a Sylph Sage Sorcerer will still be very good. You have the biggest thing you need - a good primary casting stat - but the human FCB just gives humans a decisive edge.

Saethori wrote:

If you take the Mostly Human alternate racial (from Inner Sea Races), you can qualify for the Human FCB, giving you the best of both worlds.

This is a very good point; definitely well worth the small loss of defensive utility from the extra subtype.

[Chillel]

It is entirely possible that the Sylph is better than the human.

A Sylph Wizard with the Air domain may be better than that.

You forgot the Electricity Resistance 5. Being able to fly is excellent but does involve spending 2 feats, though they have other benefits as well.

The way I read the human FCB it is only one spell, which is not that great.

[zerion69]

Dasrak wrote:

None of the Sylph advantages come close to being worth 17 spells known (most people don't bother taking the extra cantrips known at level 1-3) over the course of your career. Darkvision is a 2nd level spell with hours/day duration, Overland Flight is a 5th level spell with hours/day duration (and you even get it as a bloodline spell), Feather Fall is a 1st level spell, and Plane Shift is a 7th level spell... five of the advantages you've listed for Sylphs can be duplicated by human Sorcerers with five spells known. The outsider typing is pretty niche, since many of the common humanoid-only spells can be blocked by protection from evil.

Now, a Sylph Sage Sorcerer will still be very good. You have the biggest thing you need - a good primary casting stat - but the human FCB just gives humans a decisive edge.

Saethori wrote:

If you take the Mostly Human alternate racial (from Inner Sea Races), you can qualify for the Human FCB, giving you the best of both worlds.

This is a very good point; definitely well worth the small loss of defensive utility from the extra subtype.

I agree more spells means more flexibility and these advantages can be copied via spells... if your spells are not dispelled frequently and/or you are not in AM fields which occurs frequently in our campaigns. DM does what players do at the beginning of fights when ennemies are buffed up : dispelling all cheesy buffs, and fight in darkness or lower light. Plus slots are then used to duplicate theses permanent advantages.

But you are right, more spells can duplicate these advantages and add more to spell known... except sonic resistance (alt racial trait) :-))

@Saethori : I don't understand how changing my type or subtype help me access Human alternate feature ?

[james014Aura]

Chillel wrote:

The way I read the human FCB it is only one spell, which is not that great.

One spell *per FCB invested* which comes to level - 3 actually useful spells. Though admittedly NOT spending it on HP on a -con race makes you fragile, but it's definitely a spell *per character level*

[Saethori]

zerion69 wrote:

@Saethori : I don't understand how changing my type or subtype help me access Human alternate feature ?

The "human" subtype allows you to meet "human" prerequisites, such as favored class bonuses, as according to a FAQ that clarified this was the case for half-elves and half-orcs, due to their racial subtypes. (This FAQ was written before the racial traits to grant tieflings, aasimar, or geniekin the human subtype, so they were not intentionally omitted.)

[zerion69]

Saethori wrote:

zerion69 wrote:

@Saethori : I don't understand how changing my type or subtype help me access Human alternate feature ?

The "human" subtype allows you to meet "human" prerequisites, such as favored class bonuses, as according to a FAQ that clarified this was the case for half-elves and half-orcs, due to their racial subtypes. (This FAQ was written before the racial traits to grant tieflings, aasimar, or geniekin the human subtype, so they were not intentionally omitted.)

Wow. Indeed, that means a lot of change !

Any hint on how I can get my hand on that FAQ ?

[Azothath]

your starting ability scores should look like;
Wiz(diviner) 10,16,10,18,10,13 {+8} after racials.
Sor(orc bloodline) 10,16,10,15,10,16 {+8} or 7,16,10,12,10,18 {+6} after racials.

Traits should be metamagic or saves. They'll be more valuable than a few spells. A free feat from human is worth it IF you can wangle a way there. Just 2 traits is usually a bit better than 1 feat.
I agree that an extra known 4th level spell is worth a HP and a loss of 1 level off a metamagic. You can always retrain into that option later (10th level when you get 5th level spells).

With Sor in a pump-your-caster-level build you are looking to go Tattooed Sorcerer and get Var Tattoo(free), Spl Focus, Spl Specialization and INT:13 is a requirement. Orc bloodline has the best damage add on. Arcane, Elemental, and Draconic are good. You will need Intensify Spell as your caster level will be +3 for a few central spells.

Windy Escape is a great spell, HOWEVER, it just means you will be (somewhat) missed by ONE attack. Usually that's all you need but it's not on par with Emergency Force Sphere. You should not be in melee!

[Fuzzy-Wuzzy]

zerion69 wrote:

Saethori wrote:

zerion69 wrote:

@Saethori : I don't understand how changing my type or subtype help me access Human alternate feature ?

The "human" subtype allows you to meet "human" prerequisites, such as favored class bonuses, as according to a FAQ that clarified this was the case for half-elves and half-orcs, due to their racial subtypes. (This FAQ was written before the racial traits to grant tieflings, aasimar, or geniekin the human subtype, so they were not intentionally omitted.)

Wow. Indeed, that means a lot of change !

Any hint on how I can get my hand on that FAQ ?

Here it is!

Scroll to the top and look to the right to find all the FAQ pages; sadly there isn't a way to search them all at once that I know of.

[zerion69]

Thanks a lot :-)

Still, it's highly subject to DM approval but I'll ask, got nothing to loose.

Eventhough, it seems a quite OP : you get a great race AND great advantage from another race.

[CBDunkerson]

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

Scroll to the top and look to the right to find all the FAQ pages; sadly there isn't a way to search them all at once that I know of.

You can search all FAQs this way

[Saethori]

zerion69 wrote:

Thanks a lot :-)

Still, it's highly subject to DM approval but I'll ask, got nothing to loose.

Eventhough, it seems a quite OP : you get a great race AND great advantage from another race.

Though the most popular draw for humans, the bonus feat, isn't part of the deal. To get that, you need to be true human.

[Fuzzy-Wuzzy]

CBDunkerson wrote:

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

Scroll to the top and look to the right to find all the FAQ pages; sadly there isn't a way to search them all at once that I know of.

You can search all FAQs this way

Oh yeah, forgot Google! Thanks. :-) Still, it would be convenient if Paizo had that built in.

[Cevah]

zerion69 wrote:

Now, second reading, Sylph get

- Darkvision : no brainer, always useful and important
- Permanent fly (at level 9) : same as Darkvision
- Spell like ability (feather fall) : avoiding to learn spell eventhough it's 1/day
- Limited Planeshift (at level 15) : limited but might be useful
- Outsider type : double edged but might work often at low levels in the "right" way (ie. defense)

Plus, 20 spells "lost" by sylph (vs human) can be overcomed with ring or page of spell knowledge

Of course, those innates abilities can be achieved with (precious) spells known and cast but our DM dispels a lot and uses frequently anti-magic areas.

Read up on your dispel and anti magic. My character was recently hit with a powerful dispel, but it did not dispel my invisibility because it was a SU and not a SLA or a spell. Anti magic also has limits. Know what can be dispelled and what can be suppressed, as not all can.

/cevah

[zerion69]

Cevah wrote:

zerion69 wrote:

Now, second reading, Sylph get

- Darkvision : no brainer, always useful and important
- Permanent fly (at level 9) : same as Darkvision
- Spell like ability (feather fall) : avoiding to learn spell eventhough it's 1/day
- Limited Planeshift (at level 15) : limited but might be useful
- Outsider type : double edged but might work often at low levels in the "right" way (ie. defense)

Plus, 20 spells "lost" by sylph (vs human) can be overcomed with ring or page of spell knowledge

Of course, those innates abilities can be achieved with (precious) spells known and cast but our DM dispels a lot and uses frequently anti-magic areas.

Read up on your dispel and anti magic. My character was recently hit with a powerful dispel, but it did not dispel my invisibility because it was a SU and not a SLA or a spell. Anti magic also has limits. Know what can be dispelled and what can be suppressed, as not all can.

/cevah

True but as far as I know, Fly and Darkvision spells can be dispelled or suppressed. That would be a "+1" for sylph natural abilities vs. spells cast by human.

[Azothath]

Supernatural Abilities:

Supernatural Abilities (Su)
Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability's effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells. See Table: Special Ability Types for a summary of the types of special abilities.
Table: Special Ability Types
Effect . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Extraordinary . . Spell-Like . . Supernatural
Can dispel magic and similar spells dispel the effects of abilities of that type? . . No . . Yes . . No
Does spell resistance protect a creature from these abilities? . . No . . Yes . . No
Does an antimagic field or similar magic suppress the ability? . . No . . Yes . . Yes
Does using the ability provoke attacks of opportunity the way that casting a spell does? . . No . . Yes . . No

Dispel Magic:

You can use dispel magic to end one ongoing spell that has been cast on a creature or object, to temporarily suppress the magical abilities of a magic item, or to counter another spellcaster's spell. A dispelled spell ends as if its duration had expired. Some spells, as detailed in their descriptions, can't be defeated by dispel magic. Dispel magic can dispel (but not counter) spell-like effects just as it does spells. The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can't be dispelled, because the magical effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect.

You choose to use dispel magic in one of two ways: a targeted dispel or a counterspell.

Targeted Dispel: One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make one dispel check (1d20 + your caster level) and compare that to the spell with highest caster level (DC = 11 + the spell's caster level). If successful, that spell ends. If not, compare the same result to the spell with the next highest caster level. Repeat this process until you have dispelled one spell affecting the target, or you have failed to dispel every spell.

For example, a 7th-level caster casts dispel magic, targeting a creature affected by stoneskin (caster level 12th) and fly (caster level 6th). The caster level check results in a 19. This check is not high enough to end the stoneskin (which would have required a 23 or higher), but it is high enough to end the fly (which only required a 17). Had the dispel check resulted in a 23 or higher, the stoneskin would have been dispelled, leaving the fly intact. Had the dispel check been a 16 or less, no spells would have been affected.

You can also use a targeted dispel to specifically end one spell affecting the target or one spell affecting an area (such as a wall of fire). You must name the specific spell effect to be targeted in this way. If your caster level check is equal to or higher than the DC of that spell, it ends. No other spells or effects on the target are dispelled if your check is not high enough to end the targeted effect.

If you target an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by summon monster), you make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured the object or creature.

If the object that you target is a magic item, you make a dispel check against the item's caster level (DC = 11 + the item's caster level). If you succeed, all the item's magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds, after which the item recovers its magical properties. A suppressed item becomes nonmagical for the duration of the effect. An interdimensional opening (such as a bag of holding) is temporarily closed. A magic item's physical properties are unchanged: A suppressed magic sword is still a sword (a masterwork sword, in fact). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.

You automatically succeed on your dispel check against any spell that you cast yourself.

Counterspell: When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell targets a spellcaster and is cast as a counterspell. Unlike a true counterspell, however, dispel magic may not work; you must make a dispel check to counter the other spellcaster's spell.

[Cevah]

zerion69 wrote:

True but as far as I know, Fly and Darkvision spells can be dispelled or suppressed. That would be a "+1" for sylph natural abilities vs. spells cast by human.

The Wings of Air feat gives SU fly to a sylph, and so cannot be dispelled.

/cevah

[Azothath]

two feats for ignore first 30ft of a fall, 30ft fly(good) in no or light armor, +4 on saves vs [air][elec] effects that deal [elec] damage.

[Fourshadow]

Did you grab the Thunderborn Sylph trait? Once per day, when casting an electricity damage spell, you may replace half that damage with Sonic instead!? Lightning Bolt suddenly becomes Thunder Bolt. Shocking Grasp now has Thunder in it as well... Very nice trait, IMO.