Hi there!
I wanna play a STR/WIS based, unarmed, vanilla Unchained Monk without multiclassing. Optimizing for play is ok within this boundaries. This is a custom adventure. I wanna build a powerful and durable martial, definitely not a glass cannon. My party has a caster for Mage Armor. My first UnMonk died on a TPK so this one starts at lv. 3 or 4. This is what he looks like so far:
Human, Dual Talent (STR/WIS)
20 point buy: 18 STR, 14 DEX, 12 CON, 10 INT, 15 WIS, 7 CHA
TRAITS: Carefully Hidden, Honored Fist of the Society
Lv. 1: Possessed Hand (+1 attack/damage roll besides other stuff), Dodge
Lv. 2: Ki Diversity (Dim Mak)
Lv. 3: Dragon Style
Lv. 4: Ki Power (Barkskin)
Lv. 5: Dragon Ferocity, Style Strike (Flying Kick)
Lv. 6: Mobility, Ki Power (Elemental Fury)
Lv. 7: Hand's Sight (Possessed Hand as prereq; gives darkvision and cannot be flanked)
FEATS. I'm unsure if I keep the lv. 1 and 7 like this or pick something like Blind-fight, Iron Will, Extra Ki, Improved Initiative, Toughness or Combat Patrol. Same thing about the lv. 2 and 6 bonus feats: keep it like this or pick Improved Grapple, Improved Trip or Deflect Arrows.
TRAITS. Is it worth trading +1 to Will saves and +1 Ki Point for +2 damage?
ITEM BUILD. I'm aiming for stuff like +2 Amulet of Mighty Fists, Belt of Physical Perfection +2, Boots of Speed, +3 Bracers of Armor, Cloak of Resistance +3, Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone, Headband of Inspired Wisdom +4, Monk’s Robe, Ring of Protection +2, Ring of Ki Mastery, Deliquescent Gloves. Is it a good idea to get these gloves by lv. 6? I need help with the item buying order, I have no idea how to go about this.
Looks good.
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Do note that possessed hand should not supply to flying kicks.
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I'd consider Weapon Focus (unarmed strikes) as a feat. Monks don't get any class features that improve accuracy, so boosting that could help. What is the expected end level for the campaign, 7?
At level 4, it looks like you'll have an AC of 18 once you activate barkskin. With +1 bracers and 30 HP, you'll be able to take about 6 rounds worth of damage from a CR 4 creature's low attacks, and about 3.5 rounds worth of its high attacks. That is ok for survivability, combats rarely exceed three rounds. If the enemy goes first you might go down before the end, but taking three rounds of focused damage before dropping is good.
At level 4, your saves will be Fort +5, Ref +6, Will +3. If it's an enchantment effect they go up to +7, +8, +5. I'd get a +1 cloak for sure, and put your level 4 ability increase to Wisdom. Average ability DCs at CR 4 are 18-14, so you're only saving about half the time.
Your level 4 attack bonus is +9 and your average damage is 9.5, 11.5 on your first attack due to Dragon Style. You'll hit on an 8, and on a full attack without spending ki you'll do 15.02 damage, with a ki point for a third Flurry attack you'll do 22.19. The average CR 4 creature has 40 HP, so without a ki point you'll kill it in 3 rounds, with a ki point you'll kill it in 2 rounds. That is exactly what you want for a character who attacks HP in a fight.
Get the cloak and a +1 AC item at level 4 for sure.
At level 6, your attack bonus is +12/+7 due to a +1 amulet, and your strikes do 12.5 on average, 14.5 on the first thanks to Dragon Ferocity. You'll hit a CR 6 creature on a 7, and you'll do 26.41 damage with out a ki point, and 35.60 with a ki point. A CR 6 creature has 70ish HP, so spending a ki point will kill it in two rounds.
If we add the deliquescent gloves, we get 32.23 damage on average without using a ki point. So if we wanted to kill a CR 6 foe in two rounds, on average we'd still need to spend a ki point.
Thus, I wouldn't say the gloves are a must have by level 6.
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No Power Attack? I mean, melee characters should generally just all take Power Attack. Certainly by 7th level, anyway.
I'd consider Weapon Focus (unarmed strikes) as a feat. Monks don't get any class features that improve accuracy, so boosting that could help. What is the expected end level for the campaign, 7?
At level 4, it looks like you'll have an AC of 18 once you activate barkskin. With +1 bracers and 30 HP, you'll be able to take about 6 rounds worth of damage from a CR 4 creature's low attacks, and about 3.5 rounds worth of its high attacks. That is ok for survivability, combats rarely exceed three rounds. If the enemy goes first you might go down before the end, but taking three rounds of focused damage before dropping is good.
It's better than that since Mage Armor is a factor. Barkskin + Dodge + Mage Armor + Wis 16 (my assumption for the level 4 ability) equals out to AC 22, which is very solid.
And means a Pearl of Power should likely be an early purchase.
At level 4, your saves will be Fort +5, Ref +6, Will +3. If it's an enchantment effect they go up to +7, +8, +5. I'd get a +1 cloak for sure, and put your level 4 ability increase to Wisdom. Average ability DCs at CR 4 are 18-14, so you're only saving about half the time.
This, however, is a good point. My calculation is that the Will Save is one point better than that but a Cloak of Resistance is definitely a high priority item.
Your level 4 attack bonus is +9 and your average damage is 9.5, 11.5 on your first attack due to Dragon Style. You'll hit on an 8, and on a full attack without spending ki you'll do 15.02 damage, with a ki point for a third Flurry attack you'll do 22.19. The average CR 4 creature has 40 HP, so without a ki point you'll kill it in 3 rounds, with a ki point you'll kill it in 2 rounds. That is exactly what you want for a character who attacks HP in a fight.
Power Attack is a solid improvement on this, for the record. Though maybe not better than the hand per se.
Get the cloak and a +1 AC item at level 4 for sure.
For reasons noted above, I'd prioritize a Pearl of Power over a +1 AC item.
At level 6, your attack bonus is +12/+7 due to a +1 amulet, and your strikes do 12.5 on average, 14.5 on the first thanks to Dragon Ferocity. You'll hit a CR 6 creature on a 7, and you'll do 26.41 damage with out a ki point, and 35.60 with a ki point. A CR 6 creature has 70ish HP, so spending a ki point will kill it in two rounds.
If we add the deliquescent gloves, we get 32.23 damage on average without using a ki point. So if we wanted to kill a CR 6 foe in two rounds, on average we'd still need to spend a ki point.
Thus, I wouldn't say the gloves are a must have by level 6.
Again, Power Attack goes a long way to making damage better. Pretty much always.Not that the gloves are a bad idea, mind you...unless you're going with the hand and they interfere (which is, I think, a thing).
Looks good though a possible alternative to dragon style would be dirty fighting into improved trip and brute style.
I argue that Power Attack is not helpful in this case. As stated above, without Power Attack, the average damage dealt with two Flurry attacks against a CR 4 creature is 15.02, with a ki point for an extra attack it's 22.19. Three rounds to kill without, and two with a ki.
With Power Attack, the attack is bonus +7, and the average damage 15.5 on first strike, 13.5 on others. Enemy AC is 17. You'd hit on a 10, and deal 16.75 damage with two attacks, and 24.54 with three attacks. Still three rounds to kill without using ki, and two with.
I say that getting extra damage isn't worth it when you won't actually see your foe die sooner.
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problem with PA is that increased damage is well and good... if you hit in the first place. With only partial BAB, the monk is infamous enough for its flurries of misses not to reduce its hit chances voluntarily.
I also argue that one's character should be able to stand alone. Sponging one of your party wizard's first level spells constantly should be avoided if at all possible. What if your wizard isn't around? And as stated, even with just the +1 bracers putting them at AC 19, they should expect to last 3 rounds solo against a CR 4 enemy. I agree that their AC is low, but even then it isn't too low. They have enough HP to take a few hits.
problem with PA is that increased damage is well and good... if you hit in the first place. With only partial BAB, the monk is infamous enough for its flurries of misses not to reduce its hit chances voluntarily.
Yep, Power Attack is a poor choice for monks that aren't two-handing something. Fighters, Barbarians, etc have class bonuses to hit that make the reduction from Power Attack a non-issue. Monks have none of that, and should focus on hitting instead. Their damage comes from landing many attacks, not bonuses to damage at the expense of accuracy.
Though keep in mind this is a discussion on the Unchained Monk, who does have a full BAB.
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Power Attack on a monk is generally not a good thing and with dragon style totally unncecessary anyway. When the last feat in the dragon style feat chain comes in, there will be more than enough damage usually.
Weapon focus as mentioned by d´Eon is pretty good for monks though.
Stats: Your stat calculation is wrong with a 20 point buy. The way you´re doing it you have 4 points left! I would do:
STR 17 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 10 WIS 17 CHA 7, then 4. level raise into STR or WIS. (Considering human dual talent)
Traits: You can only get +1 damage by traits since they don´t stack.
The traits you choose are good. If you want more damage, consider martial manuscript of you want to take improved critical later on.
Or the monk weapons trait, giving you +1 damage on monk weapons.
Feats: Possessed hand is a fun feat and already boosts your damage.
Ki diversity dim mak isn´t as good as it sounds and you can get that later anyway. Stunning Fist has a fort save and things you have problems to hit are likely to make that fort save, especially since your medium WIS doesn´t make for a high DC.
With dragon style you should take elemental fist though, since there is a special synergy which makes it a lot better than the elemental fury ki power.
Equipment: Gor for a headband of wisdom +2 first, raises your AC and willsave. Bracers of armor and mage armor don´t stack, so skip the bracers untill you go over +5.
When you have a caster a wand of mage armor, pearls of power etc which let him cast it on you more often and reliably are very, very strong.
You also want magic weapon and greater magic weapon, so think of investing in pearls/runestones of power which let him cast it on you reliably without taxing his build. Both spells last for hours.
Blessed fist is also a golden spell, it gives only a minor damage boost, but let´s you overcome DR/good, solving a problem for you.
I also found an immovable rod with the various movement ki tricks really fun. Flying foe? Jump/teleport on it and activate the rod on it!
Also consider a prayer wheel to overcome DR and keep a monk weapon you can flurry with at hand of various materials for that reason!
Like an adamantine one, or others depending on your campaign.
"+2 Amulet of Mighty Fists, Belt of Physical Perfection +2, Boots of Speed, +3 Bracers of Armor, Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone, Monk’s Robe, Ring of Protection +2, Ring of Ki Mastery, Deliquescent Gloves."
Not sure what kind of campaign you play, but at level 6 you´re supposed to have ~16000gp, so you´re not able to afford most of those.
A backup weapon, headband of WIS +2, cloak of resistance +1/2, ring of protection +1/2, items helping your caster help you, a little bit of backup healing potions, maybe another +2 belt STR, CON or DEX is better at first. Get the rest later when you can.
The unchained monk does well with power attack. Sure, it doesn't help much with the really low hit chance attacks, but the unchained flurry is all about giving you a lot of high hit chance attacks.
The unchained monk does well with power attack. Sure, it doesn't help much with the really low hit chance attacks, but the unchained flurry is all about giving you a lot of high hit chance attacks.
No it doesn't. As shown in my post, Power Attack is only worth 1-3 damage more against equivalent foes. Power Attack is for two-handers that get a bonus to hit things, like fighters and barbarians.
Your post doesn't actually show that. At best it shows there are rounds where you shouldn't use power attack. But on the first round you could just as easily roll min damage or max damage. Power attack puts each successive attack in better position to finish off the enemy until success is guaranteed at min damage.
And even then you are assuming a 1 on 1 fight which isn't what Pathfinder is about. You will also have teammates trying to take down this enemy in the same round and you will have extra enemies to spend your leftover power attack attacks on.
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And on the average, Power Attack will not help kill a CR equivalent foe any faster. Sure, sometimes it'll help, but just as often it won't. Take the feat if you want, but it's not a must-have for a monk build by any means.
And having a partner makes Power Attack less important. Why spend a feat to bump your average damage from 22 to 24.5 when the enemy has 40 HP? You and your buddy who does the same damage as you are still killing the thing that round. Save the feat for your Will saves or something.
Getting your damage numbers as high as possible is cool, but due to the round structure there's diminishing returns. Trying to deal enough damage to kill an equivalent enemy in one round is a massive effort, and if you aren't killing it that round anything more than half its HP doesn't actually help in a significant way.
A single fight is easily influenced by a fluke roll. That's why I calculated the average damage you'd deal against an AC the rulebook gives as appropriate for your level, and stated that on average, Power Attack does not help. Take both monk builds with PA and without, put them against a CR equivalent foe 1,000 times, and there will not be a difference between them. The enemy will go down in 2-3 rounds depending on ki usage for both of them. The extra PA damage isn't enough to make a difference, and is a feat arguably better spent elsewhere.
And almost 95% of the time a +1 to attack won't change the result of your attack. And yet you still want the +1 to attack. A bonus doesn't need to be helpful often to be useful.
Because there's a difference between making what damage you do more reliable, and trading your accuracy for damage that might not happen.
A +1 attack bonus makes your attacks 5% more accurate, meaning a +1 to hit is worth +5% of your average damage. Power Attack gives you at least +2 damage sure, but the -1 to hit is worth -5% of your damage. That +2 is in reality only a +1.9 damage boost, because of the accuracy loss, and there's the fact that the rest of your damage takes a hit from the accuracy drop. It's still a bonus, and you'll never lose damage by having Power Attack on, but for the amount a monk gets from the feat there are better choices. Fighters and Barbarians love PA because they have accuracy to spare from Rage and Weapon Training, and two-handing makes the trade even better. Monks don't have the accuracy to spare, and if they're unarmed they don't get the two-hand bonus.
The OP's monk build has excellent damage numbers as is, and Dragon Style is better than Power Attack in their case. If they need something dead in a hurry, they can add a ki attack to their Flurry and get the damage from that. Spending a feat on Power Attack is not going to help them, especially when their saves are so low in comparison to the average DC.
Power Attack on a monk is generally not a good thing and with dragon style totally unncecessary anyway. When the last feat in the dragon style feat chain comes in, there will be more than enough damage usually.
There is no such thing as "more than enough damage" unless you one-turn-kill every enemy you fight (and even then, at 15th level, a monk can "pounce" twice in one round). There is only "the increase in damage isn't worth the investment".
Weapon focus as mentioned by d´Eon is pretty good for monks though.
Wait, so more average damage via Power Attack is bad, but more average damage via Weapon Focus is good?
Not saying Power Attack is a must have, but your reasoning is faulty.
@d'Eon: Are you fighting monsters with CR=APL stats 100% of the time? If not, your calculation is worthless because something as small as 3HP can completly tip the scales. Even when you do, it is still worthless because you aren't going to do the exact average damage on most rounds of combat. You don't seem to graps the concept of randomness.
Why spend a feat to bump your average damage from 22 to 24.5 when the enemy has 40 HP?
For those rounds where you roll slighty worse and do 19 damage twice.
@Reiss: Jabbing Style is generally stronger than Dragon Style. It does cost two more feats, though.
Mobility is a pretty good bonus feat because of the synergy with Flying Kick.
I generally prefer taking an extra attack instead of using Ki Diversity. Stunning Fist isn't that strong, considering how many enemies have a high Fortitude save or flat out immunity against it. Your Campaign May Vary, though.
Take Power Attack if you want it, I won't say you're pathfinding wrong.
And those are average numbers. For every roll that's slightly worse and would have benefited from PA, there's another one that didn't need it, or would've hit if the penalty wasn't applied. For every terrible damage roll, there's an amazing one. In the long run they will average out.
And no, not every fight is against an equal CR foe. Should I look at the stats for everything the OP might fight over the entire campaign to give them exact numbers, or can I just say "Here are the average stats for a creature you will probably see at this level. Here's how much damage you'll do on average, and here's how long you should last on average if it focuses on you."? Hint, one of those options is impossible.
I still think it's unneeded to be competent at the OP's stated goal of being powerful and durable.
problem with PA is that increased damage is well and good... if you hit in the first place. With only partial BAB, the monk is infamous enough for its flurries of misses not to reduce its hit chances voluntarily.
He's an unchained monk, he has full BAB.
The regular monk has pseudo-full-BAB when flurrying, but then it suffers a -2 penalty as if it were two weapon fighting. The "flurry of misses" is because so many of its extra attacks are basically low accuracy two weapon fighting iteratives. Meanwhile, the unMonk takes no penalty on its flurry and instead of getting lots of little low accuracy attacks, gets another high accuracy attack at later levels.
1 accuracy is worth about 2 damage, unless your accuracy is really really high or really really low. If it's in the "average range" then the 1a = 2d is pretty accurate. DPR is about the same if you go up 2 damage or up 1 accuracy.
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problem with PA is that increased damage is well and good... if you hit in the first place. With only partial BAB, the monk is infamous enough for its flurries of misses not to reduce its hit chances voluntarily.He's an unchained monk, he has full BAB.
Right. I wouldn't have recommended it on a core Monk. It's much better on Unchained.
1 accuracy is worth about 2 damage, unless your accuracy is really really high or really really low. If it's in the "average range" then the 1a = 2d is pretty accurate. DPR is about the same if you go up 2 damage or up 1 accuracy.
The thing about that is, that if focusing on raising it via items on a full BAB class (as you should be) accuracy scales faster than enemy AC, as a rule, which makes Power Attack usually a seriously good investment, since even with it your first attack (or first three attacks as a higher level Unchained Monk, four with Style Strike, five with Haste) hit on very low numbers anyway.
So, at mid to high levels, all full BAB characters tend to wind up in the 'very high accuracy' category.
overall the DPR comparisons trend to +1 accuracy equaling 2 damage worth of DPR increase. "very high accuracy" is more of the secondary attack hitting on a 2 to cause this trend to vary much.
Yes the Unchained monk probably skews it a little in favor of PA because of the abundance of Full bab attacks.
I'd avoid PA in general. Damage is not a concern for the UnMonk post Dragon Ferocity/Jabbing Master.
I'd say that something like Lunge (to ensure more full attacks) or Extra Ki (to trigger up something like Elemental Fury more constantly) has more value.
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Flying kick is already pretty good at ensuring full attacks, but you could get lunge a lot sooner. It may be something you'd want to get and then retrain out of.
I'd say PA is merely ok for the one handed monk. It's not great or bad. It's just adequate. Now if you are doing a two handed unMonk, then you can do a lot of interesting things. Like you seem to get 1.5 strength to damage with the unchained flurry.
Flying kick is already pretty good at ensuring full attacks, but you could get lunge a lot sooner. It may be something you'd want to get and then retrain out of.
I'd say PA is merely ok for the one handed monk. It's not great or bad. It's just adequate. Now if you are doing a two handed unMonk, then you can do a lot of interesting things. Like you seem to get 1.5 strength to damage with the unchained flurry.
I will agree with that. It's an option, but you can go without it and not suffer.
Any thoughts on the worth of the extra ki feat? I know you can use ki up fast, but a feat for only two more ki sounds questionable to me.
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Well it is equivalent to 4 more levels in monk as far as ki goes. I don't know if I'd take it at level 3, since all you can spend ki on right away is an extra attack. Going off the observation that most fights are over in 20-30 seconds, 5 ki (level 3, 16 Wis, Honored Fist) should last through out the day.
Once you have ki powers, I think it's good to have starting around level 5. 8 ki (level 5, 16 Wis, Honored Fist, Extra Ki) will get you through two or three 3-round fights and let you use barkskin twice. At level 6 you'd have 10 ki (level 6, 16+2 Wis w/headband, Honored Fist, Extra Ki), which gets you two-three fights and using barkskin and Elemental Fury each fight.
Thank you very much for all the help guys!! As you can notice, I'm a beginner and I learn a lot from reading discussion like this.
I will probably keep the Possessed Hand because it will be possessed by the spirit of my former unMonk. Fun times ahead.
Immovable Rod suggestion looks really fun!
I know the unMonk is starved for swift actions and Ki Points but I took Dim Mak because at least it can help me deal damage when I really need to hit something. In my noobish eyes, that seemed a slightly better then Improved Grappling or Deflect Arrows but I guess I will take Improved Grappling instead.
I took Dragon Style over Jabbing because it comes online way earlier. What I will do after lvl 7 will depend on how this unMonk/the campaign unfolds.
Oops, goofed my WIS when posting. It should be 17 after the +2 from Dual Talent. So, on lvl 4, I should have AC 20 without Mage Armor (10 + 2 DEX + 4 WIS + 1 AC Bonus from lvl4 + 1 Dodge + 2 Barkskin), 24 with MA. So I'll take a Pearl of Power, a Cloak of Resistances and a headband of +2 WIS. Getting stuff for my casters seems pretty cool. I have a sansetsukon as a backup and will eventually upgrade it accordingly too.
I'm aware I'm not able to buy all of the listed items until I'm lvl +12. In fact, I took most of that list directly from Secret Wizard's guide. I thought of buying the Deliquescent Gloves on lvl 6 so I could skip Elemental Fury and instead get another Ki Power, probably High Jump.
I think I will avoid PA if my party doesn't have any means to reduce enemy AC, to increase my accuracy or at least reliably flank.
But, if the GM ruled that PA + Dragon Style/Ferocity work with -1/+3 ratio, would that change your mind?
EDIT: Grammar. Also, totally forgot about Elemental Fist. Looks neat! And I'm adding the Human Monk FCB (+1/4 Ki points) from lvl 3 onwards.
I know other people will disagree, but if your AC is 20 at level 4, I question the need to have mage armor. But that's just me. I'm selfish with my gold, if the wizard wants a pearl he can buy his own and I'll go without the spell.
At low level, you hand your wizard buddy a Wand of Mage Armor. Once that one's used up, the wizard will be high enough level that he has first level slots to spare, and MA will probably last at least half a day.
Mage Armor is by far the cheapest way to increase a monk's AC in the game. Quite frankly, if you don't want to use that, I can not believe your claim of "I'm selfish with my gold".
@Reiss: I don't think Elemental Fist is worth it, even with Dragon Ferocity. Speaking of which, yes, Power Attack with 1/3 ratio is significantly better and, unless you're fighting high AC enemies, really worth it. It even makes Dragon Style stronger than Jabbing Style.
You can totally stack Elemental Fury and Delisquent Gloves. High Jump is not really that useful, in my opinion. I can only remember a single instance where I used it, but again, YCMV.
Elemental Fist with Dragon style works like for a monk of the four winds, which meands every 5 levels you get 1d6 more damage. That makes it very good.
High jump is very useful depending on playstyle and can be used for a lot of awesome kung fu like stuff. It also is a prereq for another trick.
Combined with the immovable rod, it´s pretty cool.
1d6 damage every five levels, on one attack per level per day.
Let's say we're level 8, 4 encounters á 4 rounds a day. Flurry is 3 attacks a round, plus one more from Ki half the rounds. That's 56 attacks per day. Elemental fist does an average of 7 damage 8 times, for 56 bonus damage over the course of the day. That's an average of 1 damage per attack, i.e. the same as a trait. Even if you go nova-y (only counting the rounds agains tougher targets), and consider that you only activate it for full BAB attacks, it's still less then two damage per hit.
How exactly is that "very good"?
The true benefit of Elemental Fist is not the damage per se. It's the elemental damage.
A lot of enemies get their regeneration disrupted by elemental damage, and having that in your toolset is quite handy. Plus, you can slow down constructs or deal double damage to elementals if you luck out.
Elemental Fury is sadly locked into a single element, so it's not as useful.
Almost every regeneration shut down by elemental damage is either fire or acid - actually, in most cases, either of them. Also, I really don't think the words "[a] lot of enemies" are true.
Of the 1981 monsters in my spreadsheet (which should contain every Paizo monster up to july 2015), there are only 30 with regeneration that's shut down by elemental damage. 19 of those get shut down by acid (often acid or fire), and one by fire or bludgeoning. That leaves 7 where you need fire, 2 where you need cold, and one where you need both fire and acid.
Almost every regeneration shut down by elemental damage is either fire or acid - actually, in most cases, either of them. Also, I really don't think the words "[a] lot of enemies" are true.
Of the 1981 monsters in my spreadsheet (which should contain every Paizo monster up to june 2015), there are only 30 with regeneration that's shut down by elemental damage. 19 of those get shut down by acid (often acid or fire), and one by fire or bludgeoning. That leaves 7 where you need fire, 2 where you need cold, and one where you need both fire and acid.
gimme dat spreadsheet
Download this, convert it to .xlsx, activate filters for the whole sheet, and remove everything from "20pfsrd.com", "Core Races" and the various Tomb of Horrors books. Then filter for "regeneration" in HP_Mods, make a new row where you extracted the part in the brakets ( and copy that into every cell), and then sort by that row.
Well, there´s something more to this game than only math for DPR.
I played an unchained monk with dragon style and elemental fist in Wrath of the Righteous with 25 point buy instead of mythic and had a real good experience there. Of course from level 7 on improved unarmed strike counting as cold iron/silver helped a lot, before that i just flurried with a cold iron kakhakkara.
Dragon style area attack with elemental fist helped a lot too, especially against swarms and mobs.
The double/1.5 STR damage from dragon style the unchained monk is already a heavy hitter even without power attack.
Most importantly i had a lot of fun and enjoyed the character, which was nicely completed by elemental fist.
Dragon style area attack with elemental fist helped a lot too, especially against swarms and mobs.
Where does the area area attack come from? Energy attacks gain AOE against swarms?
@Derklord: Stacking Elemental Fury and the Gloves sounds tempting, specially after I've found out that Fast Movement gives bonuses to Acrobatics jump checks so maybe I won't need High Jump to play the way I want. Lets see!
The final feat in Dragon Style is Dragon Roar, it gives you a breath weapon.
Oh, I see. Dragon Roar has a special effect with Elemental Fist. Thanks.
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@Hayato Ken: I'm not saying that one must not take that feat, or that playing a Monk with that feat can't be fun. All I'm saying is that it's not a "very good" feat.
I like the Monk of the Four Winds for replacing Stunning Fist with it (and for the fabulous hair, of course). If I could choose whether to take EF or SF on a UnMonk, I'd choose EF most of the time.
@Reiss: Yeah, play the monk and decide only when you actually need to decide. If at 6th level you found that you would rather have more jumping distance than more damage, go for High Jump. Or maybe take something competely different, like Empty Body (which is strangely lacking a level requirement) if you find yourself wanting neither.
Yeah stunning fist is redundant in the kit. Grappling is so much more useful when you want to disable. I keep feeling that the one thing UnMonk was missing was something that added strength+dexterity+wisdom to CMB.
My main beef with Stunning Fist is that it's (at least in my experience) Disappointment: The Feat. You're fighting a strong enemy, and stunning him would really help, so you use SF. Then you hope to hit... which you might not (I had an unarmed CMonk with Crane Style). Then you hope the enemy isn't somehow immun. Which it might be, it's not like you have tons of skill points to put into knowledge skills (8 Int...). And then you wait for the GM to roll the save... and are told it made it's save. Every. Single. Time.
I took Improved Critical (Unarmed Strike) at 10th level level because my SF never succeeded, and thus Medusa's Thingy would never have triggered, anyway.
I think I'm kinda traumatized.
It's definitely rough on the DC. It scales just like spells, but you have to split your bonuses among a bunch of stats, and none of the feats that increase the DC stack for some reason.
I think Monks should have gotten some sort of class bonus to the DC.
If you just had a feat that kept failed attempts from using up attempts, it'd be worthwhile while still not being OP. Something like,"If your stunning fist attempt does not affect your target, that attempt does not count against your number of stunning fists per day. You cannot gain the benefits of this feat more than once per round."
Well dragon style with mountain splitting strike is pretty nice.
Stunning Fist is something you put on casters or others you suspect to have a more fragile nature though, not on hardy beasts^^