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So I have a shaman PFS character and am about to create a witch one.
Shaman: Undine Speaker for the Past Waves shaman
Witch: Elf Cartomancer Endurance witch.
Can you help me understand why shaman aren't just better than witch?
(1) Shaman are 3/4 BAB compared to 1/2 BAB.
(2) Shaman get medium armor for free and take no arcane spell failure.
(3) Shaman know all spells their level or lower, like a cleric.
(4) Shaman are d8 hit points instead of d6.
In particular, my speaker for the past shaman gets ancestor/time mysteries:
Temporal Celerity (Su): Whenever you roll for initiative, you can roll twice and take either result. At 7th level, you can always act in the surprise round, but if you fail to notice the ambush, you act last, regardless of your initiative result (you act in the normal order in following rounds). At 11th level, you can roll for initiative three times and take any one of the results.
Time Hop (Su): As a move action, you can teleport up to 10 feet per oracle level that you possess per day. This teleportation must be used in 5-foot increments. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. You must have line of sight to your destination to use this ability. You can bring other willing creatures with you, but you must expend an equal amount of distance for each creature brought. You must be at least 7th level to select this revelation.
Spirit Walk (Su): You can become incorporeal and invisible. While in this form, you can move in any direction and pass through solid objects. You can take no action other than to move while in this form. You remain in this form for a number of rounds equal to your oracle level, but you can end this effect prematurely as a standard action. You can use this ability once per day at 11th level, and twice per day at 15th level. You must be at least 11th level to select this revelation.
Shaman just seem like more survivable witches that can basically do everything they can do. And they get chant/misfortune/evil eye and can choose witch hex for slumber. So they get all of the good hexes.
I am trying to get excited about my witch, but she just seems to be a gimped shaman. I also know people say the witch spell list is better, but that is not really my experience:
Monkey Fish
Restoration / Lesser restoration
etc
I actually find that there are a lot of spells that shaman get that witch don't have access to.
I want to play my witch, but I am just looking for some way that they are better. As I said, from my perspective, they just seem like shaman wanna-bes who aren't more powerful offensively and are more likely to die.
NOTE: This is for PFS, so things that come online later game are not really relevant.
Well skills are more important in PFS, so that can make the difference for some people. I think Witches get acres to a lot of different hexes for different concepts, and patrons plus good archetypes helps.
If you don't enthusiastically enjoy a class or concept, you probably won't play it enthusiastically however.
I agree if you arent sold on the witch, why make one? I think the witch actually is better but it really comes down to what you are looking for. A witch is more a spellcaster..she really only needs to get her int up to a decent level everything else is just nice.. spell wise you can get more debuffing spells. Dont get me wrong I love the shaman and I keep trying to make one but then you find out it is a really mad class almost on par with cleric...maybe worse. They both have a role..the shaman is more combat oriented and the witch is a caster
Seems to me that Shaman has a worse base class list, which it can make better but really has to jump through some hoops, including being more MAD (as noted above -- but especially if you try to go with the Lore Spirit to get arcane spells . . . same problem for Spirit Guide Oracle trying to do this, by the way). Witch is more of an arcane/divine blend (although technically arcane) out of the box. Sure is a lot easier to figure out.
Unfortunately, with regard to Witch's Major Hexes, PFS enforced retirement comes shortly after this comes online, which pushes the balance in favor of Shaman . . . if you can figure out how to use it (no other class that I have put real effort into understanding has taken me weeks to understand . . .).
If you're more into the arcane than the divine but want to do witchcraft-themed stuff while being a lot more capable in direct physical combat than a Witch, one other possibility to consider is Hexcrafter Magus (possibly in combination with some other compatible Magus archetypes).
Witches can cast Quickened Ill Omen(!), Wandering Star Motes and Confusion by level 7.
A Strength Patron Synergist Witch can be making devastating flying pounce attacks by level 8 (at which point they probably want to be multiclassing towards EK). They can still be decent casters as well.
The Shaman spell list is by far the smallest 9 level caster list.
It's small, but for a good reason. It's actually a secret perk of the class. Shamans have access to all 3 major categories of Magic: Arcane, Divine, and Nature (because Druid/Ranger list is vastly different from Cleric/Paladin). While the naked spell list doesn't have many per level, they have the important ones for sure. This is further customizable by 2 Spirit selections (1 of which can change daily), Favored Class bonuses, and even some Hex choices (which may also change daily).
Shaman does have a huge advantage in that they can change nearly everything about their character at a moments notice. Altering spirits and spells daily allows a Shaman to adapt to any situation the player finds themselves in. Need a healer? Wandering spirit Life. Need a blaster? Wandering spirit Fire.
Etc etc etc
The advantage for Witches is that they are much better debuffers than Shamans and use Pathfinder's mechanical flavor for focus to their advantage. A well focused witch is terrifying, while a versatile shaman is useful. Very different playstyles.
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You can't actually select Time Hop or Spirit Walk in normal PFS levels, since you don't get a revelation between 6th and 12th levels, right?
"At 4th, 6th, 12th, 14th, and 20th levels, the speaker for the past can select a revelation from the ancestor or time mysteries. She uses her shaman level as her oracle level for these revelations, and uses her Wisdom modifier in place of her Charisma modifier for the purposes of the revelation."
Well, there is extra revelation as well:
"Prerequisite: Revelation class feature.
Benefit: You gain one additional revelation. You must meet all of the prerequisites for this revelation.
Special: You can gain Extra Revelation multiple times."
Prereq is not being an oracle but having revelation class feature.
Go on..Witches can cast Quickened Ill Omen(!), Wandering Star Motes and Confusion by level 7.
A Strength Patron Synergist Witch can be making devastating flying pounce attacks by level 8 (at which point they probably want to be multiclassing towards EK). They can still be decent casters as well.
Improved Familiar: Silvanshee + Symbiosis @8 = fly, bite, pounce. Strength Patron Witch 8 = Divine Power, Heroism, Arcane Strike.
I like the flavor of TWF (Artful Dodge) with weapon + unarmed + claw(nails) + bite, but there are lots of ways to go with it.
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Oracles have a bigger problem than MAD trying to use Arcane Enlightenment....The shaman can add a number of spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 1) to the list of shaman spells she can prepare.Oracles are spontaneous casters with spells known from the cleric spell list and don't prepare spells. Nothing in the archetype changes that.
Just passing it along because I built an Oracle around Arcane Enlightenment and had it pointed out to me before I played it in PFS.
That's one serious oversight in wording. I wonder if they will ever issue an Errata for this . . . .
{. . .}
Oracles have a bigger problem than MAD trying to use Arcane Enlightenment....The shaman can add a number of spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 1) to the list of shaman spells she can prepare.Oracles are spontaneous casters with spells known from the cleric spell list and don't prepare spells. Nothing in the archetype changes that.
Just passing it along because I built an Oracle around Arcane Enlightenment and had it pointed out to me before I played it in PFS.
That's one serious oversight in wording. I wonder if they will ever issue an Errata for this . . . .
Honestly, they may not even want Lore Spirit to work for a Spirit Guide. Oracle Archetype to grab Shaman Spirit Hex to grab Wizard spell... I've wondered if they may be happy to let that one stay down, or even designed it that way.
^If that's the case, they should have explicitly forbidden it, rather than making it a trap option.
Well, you're not stuck with Lore Spirit at least. It's one hex on one spirit out of an awful lot of 'em.