Looking at this archetype you really seem to lose a lot to exchange your charisma for wisdom to cast spells. I don't really get why you would want to do that. I suppose it is mostly for the flavour? It is a flavourful archetype which is why I wanted to check it out in the first place.
Don't discount flavor. Also remember that higher wisdom has it's own rewards.
There is a lot more to it than that. You gain a hit and deflection from smite at +4 (so it was like you had 18 cha) 4+int to skills along with some really nice skills. Losing divine grace and detect evil is really rough though. Alone in the dark is a built in oath of vengeance and second chance! Aka "I'm about to fall unconscious let me cast lay on hands before I do" It is actually a interesting archetype (sorry just seeing it :P) You give up the team aspect of a paladin but you become a grim slayer of evil type.
There is a lot more to it than that. You gain a hit and deflection from smite at +4 (so it was like you had 18 cha) 4+int to skills along with some really nice skills. Losing divine grace and detect evil is really rough though. Alone in the dark is a built in oath of vengeance and second chance! Aka "I'm about to fall unconscious let me cast lay on hands before I do" It is actually a interesting archetype (sorry just seeing it :P) You give up the team aspect of a paladin but you become a grim slayer of evil type.
I think the whole point of it is a "tortured loner type". Some of these archetypes become a lot more interesting as NPC encounters, IF you wanted to have your players meet a Paladin that drew inspiration from a fusion of Frank Castle and Mad Max, this would be an excellent chassis to build it on. I could see a normal Paladin becomeing a Tortured Crusader through a chain of events that alters them physically, and psychically, changing their stats as well as radically altering their personality and abilities.
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I basically see Tortured Crusader as the official Vildeis archetype.
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There is a lot more to it than that. You gain a hit and deflection from smite at +4 (so it was like you had 18 cha) 4+int to skills along with some really nice skills. Losing divine grace and detect evil is really rough though. Alone in the dark is a built in oath of vengeance and second chance! Aka "I'm about to fall unconscious let me cast lay on hands before I do" It is actually a interesting archetype (sorry just seeing it :P) You give up the team aspect of a paladin but you become a grim slayer of evil type.
It's a pretty good Archetype for Dwarven Paladins, actually, especially since they have feats and traits that boost up their saving throws to make up for losing Divine Grace.
Plus the Grim Dwarven avenger is a fairly well-established fantasy trope.
Lol I have to admit I got a huge grin on my face when you mentioned dwarf Ventnor. When I was playing 4e I made probably my favorite character to date..Granted it was a dwarf fighter, but it was the build where he kept getting temp hp. Based him off of Gotrek character in warhammer. This might be a good fix... probably take Steel soul at level 1 and power attack at 3...then extra lay on hands after that :)
Sorry Pale king not trying to hijack your thread. I've been tossing around if i was gonna pick up the book...looks like I will be. You lose a lot but really you are gaining some interesting options.
@Axial No clue who that is gonna check into it.
@Drahliana Moonrunner I actually love that type of character, the idea of a shining knight fighting evil and never being touched by it becomes a stretch after awhile. I was tempted to quote Nietzsche but I'll skip that :) I do think it is a stretch to start at level 1 as such but I'm not gonna complain.
The big selling point for this Archetype, in addition to it's Dwarvenness, is the fact that you can convert LoH into Smites at level 4. Sure, Oath of Vengance can too, but it's also pretty awesome.
Also unlike a Paladin for whom Charisma is a really high priority stat you can easily get by with a 14 WIS here.
Also a 4 level dip is a very strong option.
Might be a good fit for Champion of Irori Prestige Class.
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Well, the tradeoff is a lot better than it looks at first glance.
Let's examine some Paladins, two standard (with varying Charisma focuses), one Tortured Crusader, all Human, all at 2nd level:
Str 18
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 7
Cha 14
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +4, Will +3,
22 HP, +2 to attacks and AC while Smiting, 8 skill points, 3 LoH.
Normal (High Cha):
Str 18
Dex 12
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 7
Cha 16
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +5, Will +4,
20 HP, +3 to attacks and AC while Smiting, 6 skill points, 4 LoH.
Tortured Crusader:
Str 18
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 7
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +2, Will +5,
22 HP, +4 to attacks and AC while Smiting, 12 skill points, 3 LoH.
So, the Tortured Crusader actually winds up with a better Will Save than most relatively optimal Paladin builds, though the other two are admittedly worse, and better bonuses on attack and AC while smiting (at least at low levels), something like twice the skills (and much better Class Skills), and is every bit as good offensively.
That's not a bad archetype. The loss of Divine Grace hurts, but the ability to ditch Cha entirely for Wis actually makes a net gain in Will Saves...which are often considered the most important Save category, and they retain all the Paladin immunities as well, and as good a Fort Save as any non-Paladin manages, and the use of Second Chance is a great defensive boon as well. That's a pretty solid defensive power set, and their offensive stuff is quite good to boot.
Seems like the best archetype for dwarven paladins.
Sure, the character will be far less of a team player but getting wisdom as a primary stat is a pretty great boon for dwarves giving you at least a third of the utility from divine grace.
Smite evil is much less powerful at lvl 1, sure, but then it becomes better (as if you had cha18) from lvl 2. The problem is you can't raise the bonuses increasing wisdom but still a +4 to hit and to AC isn't bad at all, especially considering how, as a dwarf you have access to the dwarven hatred racial feats (+2 to hit and to wound and +4 dodge AC against any number of enemies after they wound you when you get dwarven fury at lvl 7). Add steel soul and glory of old and you have a perfectly functional paladin.
On a 20 pts buy character:
Str 18
Dex 12
Con 16
Int 08
Wis 14
Cha 05
*You can dump int with less remorse than usual since the archetype gives you a 4+ skill points per lvl.
** Switch the 16 Con with 16 Wis if you feel you need better casting also note the text of the "Torment" ability claims Wis becomes the stat for Smite Evil then the "All Is Darkness" ability says a Tortured Crusader doesn't get Cha for Smite evil but a fixed +4 starting at lvl 2. It would be wonderful IF you could use Wis instead of Cha and then add an extra +4 but all things considered the Wis instead of Cha for Smite Evil written in "Torment" is just a typo from when the archetype was being playtested.
Edit: I think this archetype will work very well for Ironfang Invasion, evenmore so than for Strange Aeons.
I definitely missed some things on my read through of it. It looks better and better as you all bring up more things.
Ironically as good as the Crusader is in regular games its much worse in games using the Sanity system because Charisma is a key score in those games for curing your Sanity damage.
>_>
Sanity is so bad.
The big thing lost is divine grace, and the archetype makes the character much less of a team player. However, I think the archetype is still pretty good once I read through the whole thing, especially if you want the flavor of the solo fighter of evil.
It could work very well in a party of mostly neutral people where the tortured crusader considers himself the only person really fighting against evil with the others merely being in it for personal gain.
I find it to be flavorful and thematic without being a big downgrade in power.
Ironically as good as the Crusader is in regular games its much worse in games using the Sanity system because Charisma is a key score in those games for curing your Sanity damage.
>_>
Sanity is so bad.
Not sure if I agree with you.
1) The Sanity Score, Sanity Threshold, and Sanity Edge would be mostly unchanged since they are not tied to Charisma or Wisdom. This is true if you are comparing paladins with the same number in their Cha and Wis, since these are based on your better mental stat. With a higher point buy, a regular paladin would probably have a higher score though.
2) You get slightly better at avoiding sanity damage since your Will Save will be higher (as pointed out above).
3) Regarding recovering sanity damage, remember that you recover a minimum of 1 point so a tortured paladin would still heal 1 point even if he dumped Cha. Aside from that, the paladin still have access to spells that would heal the damage much faster.
4) Better at healing sanity to others. Anyone can help the other players to heal sanity damage by an amount equal to your Int or Wis bonus. Int is a low stat for every paladin but having a good Wis will mean that you'll be much better in helping the others (without considering the spells).
Good Points
I hadn't actually thought about it like that, was too focused on healing his own personal sanity damage. Excellent points.
I know it's a necro, but I just thought of this.
It seems perfect for a dip in unchained monk. As the official Vildeis archetype boar style also seems fitting. Good BAB, great accuracy in attacks, WIS to AC, and Stunning fist, which can be excellently capitalized.
