As the title says, I'm interested in building a Sap Master, but not quite in the manner that everyone is thinking; I have a basic idea as to how this would work, but I need some more information on specifics (if anyone has anything to add).
Anyway, this has been something I've observed in the several Sap Master threads that have come up, but only as of late did I realize a glaring (and potentially great) "loophole" that works to the benefit of being a "Sap Master".
The thing is, everyone sees the "Sap Adept/Master" feats and thinks "Oh, I have to use a Sap with it!" Well, according to the feats, they preface the requirement of the benefit with:
Whenever you use a bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal sneak attack damage...
Now, it is true that a Sap (as the feat name suggests) would fall under this benefit, but what if there are other weaponry that fits the bill? More specifically, an Unarmed Strike, and is an actual example given in the Sneak Attack entry for Rogues:
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage.
Normally, an Unarmed Strike hits for Bludgeoning damage, and is non-lethal (unless you're using a Gauntlet, which would probably disable this ability), so it is easily grounds for application with Sap Adept/Master. However, having Improved Unarmed Strike as a feat would let you effectively "activate" and "deactivate" this ability for relevant enemies (such as Undead, Constructs, and so on), meaning that you can very easily be relevant across combat with all kinds of encounters.
That part of the build is down and patted. What I need help with is the class levels and (probably) feat/talent selection (and maybe methods to apply my Sneak Attack besides flanking). I'm planning to be Dexterity-based, and probably picking up UCRogue for the Sneak Attack dice progression. I wanted to do Slayer, but their Sneak Attack progression is too slow to make this a real "Sap Master" sort of build. (I'd kill to have a full Sneak Attack progression Slayer archetype, but sad days.) I'm not sure of any good archetypes to take with a Rogue, so I'm open to most suggestions (though would prefer to not trade out Trapfinding or Sneak Attack damage if possible; all else can be fair game if it's worthwhile).
The next part boils down to my level dipping (because I plan to take a level dip, primarily for mechanical reasons). My initial plan is to take a level of Brawler (specifically, the Snakebite Striker archetype) after the first level of UCRogue to get a "greater" Sneak Attack progression, as well as get my Improved Unarmed Strike, Damage Dice increase, and the other goodies. However, I'm wondering if dipping 2 levels of Mantis Monk (Unchained Version) on top of that, for the same Sneak Attack progression scale as a Rogue, would be worth it as well. Getting Stunning Fist for free would be a real big help for the next plan, which is to pick up Dragon Ferocity, and get 1.5x Dexterity for all of my Unarmed Strikes (and still be able to get a +5 Amulet of Mighty Fists). The Flurry of Blows is also very nice, especially if I can pick up UCMonk with that; an extra attack at full BAB (with Sneak Attack, hopefully!) would be a real killer benefit.
Race will probably be Human for the feat, flexible bonus attributes, and the skill point, unless something better is proposed. I am kind of open to other suggestions, but I will go ahead and tell you that a bonus to Dexterity is an absolute requirement.
So, here's the leveling plan:
UC Rogue (1 level) -> Snakebite Brawler (1 level) -> UCRogue (2 levels) -> Mantis Monk (2 levels) -> UCRogue (14 levels)
I'll effectively gain:
-"Superior" Sneak Attack progression and slightly higher early-level BAB (11D6 by maximum level, expanded progression starts as early as 2nd level)
-1.5x Dexterity on all Unarmed Strikes (can start as early as 5th level, though more realistically by 7th level)
-Double Sneak Attack Damage Dice (and a bonus on damage equal to those sneak attack dice) as Non-Lethal to relevant enemies (and still normal damage to those that aren't).
-EVASION!!
-UC FLURRY OF BLOWS!!
-Can eventually choose to ditch regular armor for Bracers of Armor if I have good Wisdom
-Full Debilitating Injury benefits (though at a reduced progression)
-More hit points
I'll lose out on:
-Advanced Rogue talents (some are good, but a lot of the Advanced and regular ones are meh anyway)
-Trap Sense bonuses (again, it's meh)
-Master Strike (an execute against everyone's best saves, scaling against an attribute that I will most likely end up dumping anyway)
-Skill Points (A shame, but considering what I gain, it's wholly worth it)
-Favored Class Bonus (same as above)
-Rogue's Edge (alternate rules that will probably never be used in any game, so not really a loss)
-A replacement for one of my two sources of Evasion (Smuggler is not worth it, and nothing I see as a Monk Archetype can replace its Evasion); if only it stacked into Improved Evasion, which would be awesome.
-A replacement for one of my two sources of the Unarmed Strike class feature (But at least the class levels would stack).
-Full BAB. I'd just love to have a strong class with good Sneak Attack dice and have a good BAB progression, but unfortunately you can't have everything (even though Full Spellcasters can).
Things I'm not (completely) sure on:
-Race. Human seems like the optimal choice, but maybe there are better races out there than Humans?
-Ranged Options. This is a big issue, because this build effectively requires me to be in their face, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but for those instances where melee isn't an option, something ranged would be appreciated. Non-lethal Bludgeoning preferred, but will take anything.
-Consistent Sneak Attacks. Outside of having a flank buddy, or getting lucky in the first round of combat, I'm not sure how I can manage getting the constant benefit of applying Sneak Attack benefits. Either feats, a class feature, something would be appreciated.
Anything that can help or improve the above would be appreciated!
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Rogue getting sneak attacks...take enforcer, weapon focus, dazzling display into shatter defences. Please see my entry for a tournament(its 25 point buy but can be adjusted for 20)
LE Female Tengu Slayer 6
Init +7 Perception +13
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Defense
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AC 22, touch 16, flat-footed 17
hp 52
Fort +7 Ref +11, Will +6
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee Bite +11 (1d3+5), Claw +12(1d3+5), Claw +12(1d3+5)
Ranged Composite Longbow +11 (1d8+2)
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Statistics
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Str 14, Dex 20, Con 12 Int 10 Wis 14, Cha 10
Base Atk +6; CMB +8; CMD 23
Feats
Bludgeoneer, Enforcer, Dazzling Display
Slayer talents:
Finesse rogue, Weapon training(claws), Combat trick (Shatter Defences)
Traits Reactionary, Indomitable will
Alternate racial traits
Claws
Skills
Perception +13, stealth +15, Disable device +15, Acrobatics +15, Intimidate +11, Survival +15
Studied target
A slayer can study an opponent he can see as a move action. The slayer then gains a +1 bonus on Bluff, Knowledge, Perception, Sense Motive, and Survival checks attempted against that opponent, and a +1 bonus on weapon attack and damage rolls against it. The DCs of slayer class abilities against that opponent increase by 1. A slayer can only maintain these bonuses against one opponent at a time; these bonuses remain in effect until either the opponent is dead or the slayer studies a new target.
If a slayer deals sneak attack damage to a target, he can study that target as an immediate action, allowing him to apply his studied target bonuses against that target (including to the normal weapon damage roll).
At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th levels, the bonuses on weapon attack rolls, damage rolls, and skill checks and to slayer DCs against a studied target increase by 1. In addition, at each such interval, the slayer is able to maintain these bonuses against an additional studied target at the same time. The slayer may discard this connection to a studied target as a free action, allowing him to study another target in its place.
Sneak Attack
At 3rd level, if a slayer catches an opponent unable to defend itself effectively from his attack, he can strike a vital spot for extra damage. The slayer's attack deals extra damage anytime his target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the slayer flanks his target. This additional damage is 1d6 at 3rd level, and increases by 1d6 every 3 levels thereafter. Should the slayer score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this additional damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or unarmed strike), a slayer can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. He cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.
The slayer must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A slayer cannot use sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
Gear
Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists, Mithril Breastplate, Cloak of Resistance +1, Potion of fly, Ring of Protection +1, Potion of invisibility, Potion of cure serious wounds, 4 smoke pellets, Belt of incredible dexterity (+2), cracked magenta prism (intimidate +2), composite longbow (+2str rating)
Tactics
If Akita wins initiative, she will use her move action to study the target, then ready to 5 ft away from the target when it attacks. She tries to intimidate her foes so as to use shatter defences, and tries to stick close so she can use her full attacks.
Due to the level requirement on the tournament(6 max), I was forced to use a slayer chasis instead of a rogue, could not get sap master line.
As monk flurry does not progress if you do not have monk levels, you'll need to invest in two weapon fighting and better.
There's no easy way to get sneak attack for ranged. Either you get greater invis from party wizard, or you decide to screw the party and GM over by using an ever smoking hottle and a goz mask.
You can do bludgeoning non lethal using blunt arrows, at a -4 penalty.
Sap master line only works if you're dealing non lethal damage, so if that thing is immune, you're out of luck. Unchained rogues can take archetypes, so you might want to look into the scout archetype.
Scouts charge
At 4th level, whenever a scout makes a charge, her attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target were flat-footed. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability.
This ability replaces uncanny dodge.
Skirmisher
At 8th level, whenever a scout moves more than 10 feet in a round and makes an attack action, the attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target was flat-footed. If the scout makes more than one attack this turn, this ability only applies to the first attack. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability.
This ability replaces improved uncanny dodge.
Though shatter defences(albeit one less attack per round) should be able to give you sneak for most circumstances.
Otherwise improved two weapon feint is also a thing, or VMC magus for prescient attack magus arcana, but those only deny dex, not give flat-footed, so sap master feat won't work.
Bludgeoneer feat would allow you to use the blunt arrows with no penalty for non-lethal.
It also allows you to do non-lethal with an Earthbreaker at no penalty, which is what I did with one of my Bloodragers. There may be other blunt weapons that would be more appropriate to your build.
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Improved unarmed strike is fine. I once created a wil o wisp with class levels 4 unchained rogue/2 master of many styles. 1d4+17 for damage is not bad for something that has 1 str...
It was more of an exercise in funsies.
*snickers at BretI*
Excuse me...back to the tournament. I've got more theory crafting to do.
I was reviewing the class levels, and I realized the sole reason I took Snakebite Brawler would be for the same reasons that I would take, for example, Vivisectionist Alchemist (which would actually be mechanically better) or the Assassin prestige class; the extra Sneak Attack damage.
Although Vivisectionist doesn't give bonus BAB, having access to Mutagens is a big step-up in power, and quite frankly, I don't need the skill points or the slots, so it's acceptable to dump Intelligence. Plus, Assassins are more stupid anyway.
That being said, this 'dip' I wouldn't take right away, since the Mantis UCMonk would be good enough. Unfortunately, I'd need to adjust my leveling scheme, since I just realized the Finesse benefits will outweigh the necessity for unarmed strikes.
I'm probably just going to go with Human for the feat, if being feat starved is going to be a thing. I may take Swashbuckler, but we'll see how the feats stack up.
For attributes, I'm going Dual Talent Human; I'd like to keep the feat, but 15 Strength for requirements is steep for 1.5x Dexterity on all attacks, and is especially relevant for encounters where I can't use Sap feats. With 20 point buy, it'd be as follows:
Strength 15 (13 + 2)
Dexterity 20 (18 + 2)
Constitution 12
Intelligence 7
Wisdom 14
Charisma 7
Not great, but not bad. I hate not having as good Wisdom as I want, but that's the price you pay for a worthwhile offense.
I've decided to alter the leveling to Mantis UCMonk 1 -> UCRogue 3 -> Mantis UCMonk 1 -> Vivisectionist 1 -> UCRogue 14, since I'll have decent Strength for Dragon Style, which makes the lower levels not so unbearable. So far with feats, I'm looking at:
1. Combat Reflexes, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Power Attack
2. Weapon Finesse
3. Sap Adept, Dragon Style
5. Dragon Ferocity
7. Sap Master, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
9. Enforcer
11. Dazzling Display
13. Shatter Defenses
If I take the Human Bonus feat and the Swashbuckler (archetype, not class), I can make the build online as early as 9th level, otherwise that's 4 levels of requiring a flank buddy (which isn't horrible, but not great).
Is Shatter Defenses really the only way to reliably make an enemy Flat-Footed (or otherwise provide some sort of flanking)?
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Improved 2 weapon feint or prescient attack using magus arcana from VMC magus.
Otherwise you can give up the entire rogue concept, dipping only 1 level of rogue, do full hunter for pack flanking, then keep taking accomplished sneak attacker. Which I think defeats the entire concept.
Flurry doesn't progress as monk dips so you'll only get as if you have improved two weapon fighting, you won't get as if you had greater two weapon fighting.
If your GM is very stealth friendly, you might be able to use hellcat stealth and shadow dancer dip for hide in plain sight then use the sniping from stealth rule(only denies dex). You'll need to be able to deal with the massive penalties you take to remain stealthed after sniping.
You don't really have the reach to abuse combat reflexes, so I would drop that. Personally I wouldn't even dip that much.
I've already showed you the build can be online early as 6(but you lose out at high levels because you have no iteratives), provided you use slayer instead of rogue, and you don't dip at all. Well missing sap master, but oh well.
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Rogue chasis Sap master...
Tengu, 20 point buy.
Str 14
Dex 18
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 10
Lv 1 (Unchained Rogue 1) - Finesse Training, Two weapon fighting (Lv 1 feat)
Lv 2 (Master of Many styles) - Improved Unarmed Strike, Dragon style
Lv 3 (UC Rogue 2) - Finesse training, Enforcer, Rogue talent (Weapon Training (Improved Unarmed strike)
Lv 4 (UC Rogue 3) - Add dex to damage
Lv 5 (Master of Many styles, UC rogue 3) - Dragon Ferocity, Sap Master
Lv 6 (UC Rogue 4)- Rogue Talent (Slow reaction)
Lv 7 (UC Rogue 5) - Dazzling Display
Lv 8 (UC Rogue 6) - Rogue Talent (Combat Trick) - Sap Adept
Lv 9 (UC Rogue 7) - Shatter Defences
Online at level 9. Even against creatures with sneak immunity (Can't get sneak off) - you still deal 1.5x dex of damage. TWF on medium bab - just skip power attack, you're better off without it.
Lv 11 feat is Improved Two weapon fighting. If you have a wizard in party you can dump str to 10, have 16 wis, run around with mage armor. The strength was just for you to wear armor in case no wizard.
My favorite build with this is using the dimensional feats with the horizon walker prestige class to tele-KO people.
dragon ferocity doesn't increase the dex to damage. FAQ
"However, any other effects that would increase the multiplier to your Strength bonus on damage rolls (such as the two-handed fighter archetype's overhand chop) do not affect your Dexterity bonus on damage rolls."
This includes Dragon style and ferocity.
dragon ferocity doesn't increase the dex to damage. FAQ
"However, any other effects that would increase the multiplier to your Strength bonus on damage rolls (such as the two-handed fighter archetype's overhand chop) do not affect your Dexterity bonus on damage rolls."
This includes Dragon style and ferocity.
Well, that's brutal.
But, there are some upsides to that. For starters, I don't need to have a high Strength for Power Attack (though this means I have to start my UCRogue level first). Second, it frees up feat slots that I can use for TWF or Shatter Defenses. To be honest, at best, I'd be looking at +4 damage per attack (which isn't bad, but not worth what I'd gain in exchange).
@ Everyone: I'm using UCMonk's Flurry of Blows, which just grants an extra attack when I'm using a Full Attack with Unarmed Strikes. There's none of this "Slow progression of TWF" stuff I have to worry about except for the TWF feat chain.
Bludgeoneer feat would allow you to use the blunt arrows with no penalty for non-lethal.
It also allows you to do non-lethal with an Earthbreaker at no penalty, which is what I did with one of my Bloodragers. There may be other blunt weapons that would be more appropriate to your build.
For completeness, the following are all of the ways that I know of to deal nonlethal damage with lethal weapons without a penalty. Several work with bludgeoning weapons.
Traits
Blade of Mercy (religion-Sarenrae): all slashing weapons
Merciful Scimitar (combat): scimitars
Mock Gladiator (social): any one weapon
Feats
Bludgeoner (combat): all bludgeoning weapons
Merciful Bane (general): any weapon currently affected by your Bane class ability
Stage Combatant (combat): any weapon for which you have Weapon Focus
Virtuous Creed, Mercy (general): all weapons
Weapon Special Abilities
Merciful: any weapon
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And for a non-lethal damage build, having a weapon with the Sapping special ability is wonderful.
Here's my third rough draft. Gonna ditch the Dual Talent benefit for the feat and skill point.
Level scheme is switched back to UCRogue 1 -> UCMonk 1 -> UCRogue 2 -> UCMonk 1 -> Alchemist 1 -> UCRogue 14. Archetypes will include Sanctified for the UCRogue, Mantis Master for the UCMonk, and Vivisectionist for the Alchemist.
Also, since I plan for this character to be used in a (coherent and tactically sound) party, it would make sense to rely on a flank buddy of some sort. Outflank becomes a valuable feat for party-members to take, because +4 to hit (and triggering AoOs for others on a critical) is pretty nice, no matter how you slice it. Otherwise, it looks like some mad Stealth is required to make use of good Sneak Attacks, because the odds of running into enemies that aren't immune to Fear (as demoralizing enemies is required in order to make them flat-footed) is pretty slim. In addition, I will not have the Charisma or the Strength to pull off Intimidate checks, even with ranks, so the odds of making that work is pretty slim.
Attributes
Strength 8 (Who needs carrying capacity? I don't.)
Dexterity 20 (18 + 2)
Constitution 12
Intelligence 12
Wisdom 14
Charisma 7
Traits
Reactionary
Indomitable Faith
Feats
1. Weapon Finesse, Two-Weapon Fighting, Sap Adept
2. Improved Unarmed Strike, Deflect Arrows, Stunning Fist
3. Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike), Knockout Artist
5. Sap Master, Outflank
7. Improved Initiative
9. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
11. Piranha Strike
13-20. Any
Rogue Talents
1. Weapon Training
2. Combat Trick (Sap Master)
3. Bleeding Attack
4. Stand Up
5. Double Debilitation
6. Dispelling Attack
7. Improved Evasion
8. Feat?
Bump.
Fourth revision; UCFlurry doesn't stack with TWF, so I'll end up ditching the TWF Feats (in the end, having an extra attack at -5 for the cost of 2 feats and taking forever to actually acquire isn't entirely worth it, even if I can theoretically get more Sneak Attack damage with it). I'll also end up substituting Indomitable Faith for Bruising Intellect, so as to make the concept of Shatter Defenses viable, though if I do have some spare feats, Additional Traits sounds like it could be a good idea to pick it back up later.
I also forgot that there are a lot more Rogue Talents available (and that I can dip into certain Ninja Tricks for even more feats and other shenanigans), which I will be making use of, and that apparently several of the Rogue Talents that I have chosen ended up not stacking with themselves (as in, you can't use them all at once). So there will be some fixes on that front.
Without further ado, here's to (hopefully) creating the Final Draft.
The leveling scheme will require me to delay the Vivisectionist dip until 9th level, so as to take advantage of the Bonus Feats and acquire Shatter Defenses earlier (though not much earlier). This would cause a slight drop in damage and defenses in that time, but grabbing a feat a level earlier is the equivalent of using the Wizard spell progression instead of the Sorcerer spell progression; in other words, it's amazeballs. I may also tack on the Black Asp archetype, in the event that I acquire Poisoner's Gloves, because my Stunning Fist would be practically useless.
Attributes are same as before; they seem to be good enough considering the 20 point buy, even if I'd rather have a 16 Wisdom. A 25 point buy would be glorious for that, but the odds of coming across a game table like that are very slim.
Traits
Reactionary
Bruising Intellect
Feats
1. Weapon Finesse, Sap Adept, Enforcer
2. Improved Unarmed Strike, Combat Reflexes, Stunning Fist
3. Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike), Knockout Artist
5. Sap Master
6. Snapping Turtle Style
7. Dazzling Display
8. Shatter Defenses
9. Piranha Strike
11. Improved Initiative
13-20. Any (Extra Rogue Talent, Additional Traits, et. al.)
Rogue Talents
1. Weapon Training
2. Ninja Trick [Style Master (Snapping Turtle Style)]
3. Combat Trick (Shatter Defenses)
4. Stand Up
5. Feat/Double Debilitation
6. Double Debilitation
7. Master Trick [Unarmed Combat Mastery]
8. Improved Evasion?
So far I'm liking it. Suggestions/Concerns?