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Let me see if I understand your argument; RPing someone of a different race than yourself is "perpetuating racist stereotypes"?? Do you even realize your argument that everyone should "stick to their own race" is the very DEFINITION of racism?
I'm of middle eastern descent, so according to you that means I can only rp middle eastern males?? Should I "stick to my own kind" when I roleplay? We're playing Pathfinder, I'd love to play an Ulfen badass, but since I'm Middle Eastern, I guess I have to play someone from Qadira.
Nowadays, no way would I be able to do that without being called a racist.The only thing I'm saying is that you seem concerned about being called a racist without voicing any concern that what you're doing could be racist.
Why do you think that someone would call you a racist for these things? Is it because someone has called you racist for your character portrayals? Have you taken into account what people of that race have to say about the ways they see themselves presented? And in this specific case, are you using "Native American" as a shorthand for a specific tribe or First Nation people that you based your character on, or did you just kind of go with an amalgam of different cultures?
The character in question was heavily based on the culture of the Iroquois nations, that's where my studies were focused.
Personally, I've seen plenty of occasions where accusations of racism get thrown around in games. However, I've never actually seen someone of a race other than Caucasian throw that word around. It's always white people getting offended on someone else's behalf and calling someone a racist. As if people from different races can't decide for themselves what offends them, we all need a white spokesperson to decide what offends us and then yell at someone about it.
Ironically, THAT'S what offends me. I have no issues at all if someone wants to play a middle eastern character in a game I'm involved in. And I'll decide for myself if that person portrays my culture in a negative way. I don't need a "White Savior" deciding for me what is offensive to my culture.
Please understand I'm not accusing you of doing that, and this issue goes way beyond rpgs. It's gotten to the point where there is a kind of tyranny being imposed on everyone by well-meaning Caucasian people deciding what is racist on everyone else's behalf, and not even stopping to consider that what they're doing is textbook racism. I can't even count the number of times someone has said "doesn't that offend you?" to me, and when I say "No", they decide that I'm just too downtrodden to decide and speak for myself.
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And in this specific case, are you using "Native American" as a shorthand for a specific tribe or First Nation people that you based your character on, or did you just kind of go with an amalgam of different cultures?
And thank you for so eloquently proving my point. As I wrote earlier, "the effect is that if I want my rogue to be wearing 11th century leather armor and carrying a 16th century French rapier on his way to slay a 19th century Balkan vampire in a British opera cloak, that's fine, but..." I guess I'm in trouble if I do an amalgam of different Native American cultures.
I consider that to be a much more damaging and racist attitude from the people ostensibly concerned about it. Evidently Cherokee are such precious, fragile, snowflakes that they will be eternally damaged if someone accidentally spills some Navajo on them?
Why do you think that someone would call you a racist for these things? Is it because someone has called you racist for your character portrayals?
Nope, people -- examples were cited upthread -- are being called racist for the simple act of drawing inspiration from non-traditional white "generic European" cultures. In your case--and here, this is not a generic you, but a response to the post I'm quoting--you're suggesting obliquely that one is being racist for drawing inspiration from "an amalgam of different [Native American] cultures."
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32
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Ironically, THAT'S what offends me. I have no issues at all if someone wants to play a middle eastern character in a game I'm involved in. And I'll decide for myself if that person portrays my culture in a negative way. I don't need a "White Savior" deciding for me what is offensive to my culture.
Please understand I'm not accusing you of doing that, and this issue goes way beyond rpgs. It's gotten to the point where there is a kind of tyranny being imposed on everyone by well-meaning Caucasian people deciding what is racist on everyone else's behalf, and not even stopping to consider that what they're doing is textbook racism. I can't even count the number of times someone has said "doesn't that offend you?" to me, and when I say "No", they decide that I'm just too downtrodden to decide and speak for myself.
Yeah, that sounds pretty irksome. Since I'm white and American, I do try to base my views on what racism is and how it functions on what I hear from non-white voices. Generally, I think, white Americans are pretty bad at understanding racism, even when they think they're helping. In a game, I have taken my friend aside and asked him to stop doing what came across to me as a racist accent for a certain NPC, because I feel like it's important for me to call out other white people on their racism. Admittedly, though, it was due to my own discomfort with a racialized portrayal, at a table of all white people.
I do think it's important for white people to speak out against racism they observe, because the burden of undoing racism shouldn't fall only to the people who are hurt and oppressed by it. But at the same time, white people could always be better allies, especially when it comes to letting oppressed voices speak for themselves.
And thank you for so eloquently proving my point. As I wrote earlier, "the effect is that if I want my rogue to be wearing 11th century leather armor and carrying a 16th century French rapier on his way to slay a 19th century Balkan vampire in a British opera cloak, that's fine, but..." I guess I'm in trouble if I do an amalgam of different Native American cultures.
From what I've read of how actual various Native American people feel about treating their cultures as a monolith: it's a racist and s&%#ty thing to do. It's a view that directly stems from white supremacy and genocide. Also, Native American cultures still exist and treating them as being in the same category as cultures from centuries ago is both a result of genocide and a continuation of it.
When D&D came out with their Native-inspired region of their campaign setting a couple years ago, Natives were upset and criticized it for this very thing. Maybe you haven't heard this explanation before, or heard Native voices express their explicit disapproval of how games and media at large portray them and their cultures. Drawing inspiration from a culture isn't inherently a bad thing, but the specific ways that Native American cultures are 1) treated as a monolith, 2) treated as historical and "past" instead of modern and currently existing, and 3) treated as if all aspects of all of their cultures are okay to appropriate, regardless of cultural or religious importance are the problem, especially in the context of their literal genocides.
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@MechaPoet: That's a really good attitude to have, particularly in an all-white group. If the demographics of your group changes and you have some non-white people playing, my only advice would be to defer to them and let them take the lead on deciding what's offensive to them.
Racism unfortunately is something ubiquitous and definitely not limited to Caucasians. Professionally, I work in EMS and I recall attending a briefing on terrorism recently. When the presenter started talking about ISIS, practically everyone in the room turned and looked at me. I was like WOW, really?? I was tempted to yell out "Death to the infidels!" just to screw with everyone lol. I decided not to cause there were alot of cops in the room and I didn't want to get shot.
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Wow, that's scary. You can't even joke around without seriously worrying about getting shot. :-(
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Wow, that's scary. You can't even joke around without seriously worrying about getting shot. :-(
Lol I knew most of those guys so I didn't really think I would get shot. Still, joking around about jihadists during a briefing on terrorism is in pretty poor taste.
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I can only speak for the groups I play with, but in general we stick with medieval pseudo-European settings. We do have a D&D5 game currently that is set in a somewhat more Middle Eastern-like locale, but in practice it isn't that much different from a campaign set in the Forgotten Realms or Golarion.
I personally would very much enjoy playing in a setting that isn't modeled after medieval Europe. But my friends don't seem too interested in other time periods or settings because there isn't enough supporting material, or it would require too much modification of existing materials.
Lol I knew most of those guys so I didn't really think I would get shot. Still, joking around about jihadists during a briefing on terrorism is in pretty poor taste.Wow, that's scary. You can't even joke around without seriously worrying about getting shot. :-(
Made my day. Not laughing at you but with you.
In other news:
I went to high school with a guy whose family left Vietnam about 15 years ago (I'm guessing) and I can tell you the adults in that family do like the Chinese.
My point - Racism is bloody everywhere and isn't going away anytime soon.
Back to the OP (sort of), as
my only advice would be to defer to them and let them take the lead on deciding what's offensive to them.That same advice applies to so many things. I use it all the time and it works out quite well.
Vietnam has a history of being invaded/colonized by the Chinese, in fact China invaded Vietnam as recently as the 1980s, so I'm not surprised.
@MechaPoet: That's a really good attitude to have, particularly in an all-white group. If the demographics of your group changes and you have some non-white people playing, my only advice would be to defer to them and let them take the lead on deciding what's offensive to them.OTOH, I've also seen cases where lone minorities (or women) in a group were happy when someone else spoke up. When everyone else seems to be agreeing, even if just in silence, it can be intimidating as hell, leaving them thinking that if they speak up, they'll be the lone voice and everyone else is prejudiced against them.
It's tricky, cause you also don't want to be jumping in and white knighting when they actually aren't bothered by it.
That's a very good point. I wish I had an answer for every situation but I don't. People are very different and there's no "one size fits all" solution.
This thread got heavy.
Going back to the original topic, I think that "Medieval Europe" is simply cemented as the standard for a lot of people. Personally, I prefer drifting into crazier and weirder territory with my fantasy. With that said, I have actually been hammering out a campaign in Napoleonic, real life Europe. I think there are a lot of interesting period that should be explored in fantasy, and people are too often limiting themselves to a narrow group.
My problem with the concept is even the supposed "medieval European" setting doesn't actually match. It tends to be a hodge podge of multiple culture from multiple time periods with a heavy dose of random nonsense that someone at some point thought was "medieval".
I mean generally it doesn't bug me too much, except when someone wants to push such nonsense as 'serious' or somehow well researched.
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It's basic academic language. Genocide does not include murder in all cases, but rather the attempt to erase a culture by whichever means are at hand. The idea that genocide must involve killing people is more a popular culture conception than an academic one. Within American Indian Studies, most academics hold that continuous cultural erasure, such as portraying one as a dead or dying historical culture, can rise to the definition of genocide if it is at an institutional level and part of a larger campaign of forced assimilation (both of which most academics seem to believe is the case). You are certainly free to disagree with those academics, but the use of the word itself is legitimate in this context. Using a term in a common academic manner is not whiny, childish, hypersensitive, or overblownm regardless of how little you like the term.Also, Native American cultures still exist and treating them as being in the same category as cultures from centuries ago is both a result of genocide and a continuation of it.Equating an RPG setting, no matter how offensive or insensitive, with actual murder is probably the most overblown, hypersensitive, whiny, and childish sentiments I've seen on these boards (and yes, that includes the Rules subforum).
the deliberate killing of people who belong to a particular racial, political, or cultural group
Similar to villain and decimate, the word has changed in the vernacular. Calling it "basic academic language" is condescending
That said, I didn't know that. Unsarcastic thanks for informing me about that, Rosita!
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Back to the thread topic; yes I do. Part of the joy for me in RPGs is exploring unfamiliar worlds, and Faux Europe is familiar. When creating cultures, I only draw bits and pieces from the real world-architecture, weaponry, etc. And then I add giant bugs, because giant domesticated bugs are awesome.
I've yet to see ANY setting published by TSR, WOTC, or Paizo that WAS midieval Europe. Paizo's setting is less White Male dominated than previous ones, but none of them were very medieval Europe, with the closest being Greyhawk.
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Heck Paizo's setting is basically fantasy 1000-1800 Eastern Hemisphere.
Medieval covers only a small slice of that period. And some of Paizo's settings are approaching late 1800s. (Alkenstar comes to mind)
No worries. So, to help get the thread rolling again, what's your favorite non-standard setting?
Nyambe, without a doubt. I'm not really an expert in pre-colonial Africa, but it feels like something that goes through a lot of effort to be respectful, and it's interesting enough that I could drop the non-standard bit and call it ons of the best published settings I own. I hear good about Northern Crown, and I do own it, but I haven't had time to read it and can't really judge.
Runner up is Jade Oath. Jade Oath is a pretty good Chinese fantasy, and I really liked the extreme depth of research that went into it.
I'm currently optimistic about the upcoming Heroes of the Waves and it's take on Polynesia.
No worries. So, to help get the thread rolling again, what's your favorite non-standard setting?Nyambe, without a doubt. I'm not really an expert in pre-colonial Africa, but it feels like something that goes through a lot of effort to be respectful, and it's interesting enough that I could drop the non-standard bit and call it ons of the best published settings I own. I hear good about Northern Crown, and I do own it, but I haven't had time to read it and can't really judge.
Runner up is Jade Oath. Jade Oath is a pretty good Chinese fantasy, and I really liked the extreme depth of research that went into it.
I'm currently optimistic about the upcoming Heroes of the Waves and it's take on Polynesia.
I remember when Nyambe was part of the Living Arcanis setting... until Green Ronin and Paradigm Press got into some sort of hissy fit.
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No worries. So, to help get the thread rolling again, what's your favorite non-standard setting?Nyambe, without a doubt. I'm not really an expert in pre-colonial Africa, but it feels like something that goes through a lot of effort to be respectful, and it's interesting enough that I could drop the non-standard bit and call it ons of the best published settings I own. I hear good about Northern Crown, and I do own it, but I haven't had time to read it and can't really judge.
Runner up is Jade Oath. Jade Oath is a pretty good Chinese fantasy, and I really liked the extreme depth of research that went into it.
I'm currently optimistic about the upcoming Heroes of the Waves and it's take on Polynesia.
I've been looking into Nyambe and keep hearing great things about it. Might just have to get it now.
My personal favorite setting is not a Paizo/WOTC/TSR setting, but I really like the setting from the Earthdawn rpg. It's basically the "ancient history" of the Shadowrun setting.
I typically love really bizarre and over the top settings. Of the TSR settings, Dark Sun was always my fave. Other RPG settings I've enjoyed over the years are Gamma World, Warhammer 40k, and Rifts.
Any setting that's low key, realistic, or traditional in any way bores me to tears.
Heck Paizo's setting is basically fantasy 1000-1800 Eastern Hemisphere.Medieval covers only a small slice of that period. And some of Paizo's settings are approaching late 1800s. (Alkenstar comes to mind)
It's like someone saw my post and said, "lets prove his point."
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Sure, my favorite is Third Imperium for the Traveller system. A system I say needs a lot more respect.
Sure, my favorite is Third Imperium for the Traveller system. A system I say needs a lot more respect.I think the thread refers specifically to fantasy settings in the title, or I'd have suggested the 2300AD Traveller variant. I love the Third Imperium in some ways, but it often feels like it's too big and too well known for the players to matter in many parts. 2300AD has more of the 'frontier explorer' feel that I rather prefer.
Cant get more frontier than the Spinward Marches. Though I know 2300AD has its fans.
Right now no, I don't like non European fantasy mileu settings. But to be frank, I just don't like MIXING my settings with wildly differing cultures. For example, I didn't like it when an idiot newbie tried to introduce a kitsune into my game. It's wildly Japanese, and I don't allow the Monk, Samurai, and Ninja for the same reason: It's a stupid idea to introduce the far East into a medieval fantasy setting.
That said, I would be just fine with allowing Japanese or Chinese mythology and classes into a Jade Regent campaign. They suit the setting.
I like really cosmopolitan settings. One of the reasons Planescape is an all time favorite of mine. You could have a Greek-influenced mythic oracle, a ninja, a Dark Sun gladiator, a cleric of Thor, a gothic-inspired vampire hunter, a "traditional medieval" ranger, a swashbuckling rogue, a Red Robed Wizard of High Sorcery, Red Wizard of Thay, and a kender, all in the same party.
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One type of game setting that always sends me running for the hills is the urban fantasy/intrigue heavy type of setting. I can't stand politics and intrigue, and I find cities to be extremely boring. I live in a large metropolitan area, so a city setting doesn't interest me.
Typically I always do my best to make a character that fits whatever setting or campaign a GM wants to run. But in urban settings, I'm totally the guy who plays the wilderness character who hates cities and refuses to go into them lol.
I try not to run ice-based adventures in the winter.
I also hate roleplaying shopping. That's what email is for.
And in this specific case, are you using "Native American" as a shorthand for a specific tribe or First Nation people that you based your character on, or did you just kind of go with an amalgam of different cultures?And thank you for so eloquently proving my point. As I wrote earlier, "the effect is that if I want my rogue to be wearing 11th century leather armor and carrying a 16th century French rapier on his way to slay a 19th century Balkan vampire in a British opera cloak, that's fine, but..." I guess I'm in trouble if I do an amalgam of different Native American cultures.
I consider that to be a much more damaging and racist attitude from the people ostensibly concerned about it. Evidently Cherokee are such precious, fragile, snowflakes that they will be eternally damaged if someone accidentally spills some Navajo on them?
I think the inherent difference is their has been a long pop culture tradition to treat Native American as a monolithic block, without realizing the cultural diversity, and bringing in a lot of postcontact baggage. That's not really the case where Europe, and blending elements is less of a problem since large chunks of Europe were pretty similar to one another, and even then people know that Germans and French aren't the same thing.
Blending elements from less familiar societies is more problematic because it's difficult to parse out the difference sometimes between "well thought out and designed" versus "lazy and just grabbing the most familiar things that come to mind". I think the former can be done (honestly better representation of non-traditional settings is sometime we need), it just perhaps requires a greater degree of care than some people want to invest.
I think the inherent difference is their has been a long pop culture tradition to treat Native American as a monolithic block, without realizing the cultural diversity, and bringing in a lot of postcontact baggage.And thank you for so eloquently proving my point. As I wrote earlier, "the effect is that if I want my rogue to be wearing 11th century leather armor and carrying a 16th century French rapier on his way to slay a 19th century Balkan vampire in a British opera cloak, that's fine, but..." I guess I'm in trouble if I do an amalgam of different Native American cultures.
I consider that to be a much more damaging and racist attitude from the people ostensibly concerned about it. Evidently Cherokee are such precious, fragile, snowflakes that they will be eternally damaged if someone accidentally spills some Navajo on them?
And there hasn't been a long pop culture tradition to treat medieval Europe as a monolithic block, without realizing the cultural diversity, and bringing in a lot of post-medieval baggage?
Bullfrog.
If you think that's the case.... all right, tell me, where was Cinderella from? For bonus points, when was she from? --- and the answer to THAT one isn't compatible with the answer to the previous question. And you basically need a Ph.D. in folklore to answer either one. That's practically the definition of treating medieval Europe as a monolithic block.
And every document ever written by Paizo is an exercise in post-contact baggage, largely because modern audiences won't put up with the sexism in Disney's Snow White, let alone the original versions.
Again, it's a racist double standard promulgated largely by people in the name of ending racism, which is only slightly less sensible than fornication in the name of chastity.
Let me see if I get that last sentence right...
Because racism happened somewhere else, towards someone else... we shouldn't try to be aware of other times it's happening.
That's how you want to apply it, right? Because Europeans have been stereotyped and presented as a monolithic block, therefore, no one is allowed to point out that it happens to other cultures.
If you went to your doctor with a broken leg and he gave you that argument "Well, there are many broken legs, so I can't address yours until we have a solution for all of them." Would you be satisfied?
It's the perfect solution fallacy/fallacy of relative privation. Because you aren't addressing the bigger issue, you aren't allowed to address the smaller issue. It's b%&~~**@. Hence why it's a logical fallacy.
I'm not saying we have to address and solve racism right here, right now. But that defense of it, or at least attempt to subvert/stop debate on it is b~$$%~@*. I don't want to get into what is and isn't racism. I don't think this is the thread for it. It has to be a completely separate discussion from RPG's first, before we complicate it further, and this is a thread about RPG settings, not racism.
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The point is either you should complain about all instances of racism or you should complain about none.
You said this... right?
If you can't find the post I'll link to it ->here<-
Here, I'll show you a simple way why this doesn't work by applying that logic to you.
You're not allowed to complain about people unevenly complaining about racism unless you can point out all the instances of people unevenly complaining about racism.
Using your own logic, you can't complain about the issue unless you do it with perfect consistency and accuracy and cover the entire breadth of the issue. I also need only find one example on these message boards where someone has complained about racism and YOU DIDN'T speak up to prove my point.
How much you want to bet I can find someone calling someone else racists, they did a bad job of it, and you didn't respond? Cause if I can, by YOUR logic, you're not allowed to comment on the issue ever again.
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[rant]I love it when people throw around the term racism when what they are actually describing is called "prejudice" and/or "stereotyping"... I'm sick of that word being used incorrectly... Racism indicates an intent to make the other race seen inferior to others, if what someone is doing is not done specifically with the intent of demeaning another race then its stereotyping or prejudice.[/rant]
Back to the primary discussion at hand... I enjoy pretty much any setting, though the traditional "European" fantasy setting is my favorite. I do have a great time with different settings that try to do their own unique thing.