2016 US Election


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Trump has yet to face Clinton in a debate. Now, he's never actually faced a strong debater, and Hillary definitely knows what she's doing. But until they've debated, I won't be particularly eager to make predictions.

But Clinton will probably win.

More specifically, he's never faced a debater who wasn't trying to appeal to the same wingnut base Trump has won over. Makes it hard to argue with someone, when your basic appeal is "I'm just like him, but politer about it" and they want the red meat.

It's not going to be an easy debate though. Trump's a master of the Gish Gallop and that's really hard to counter if you don't have a moderator willing to call him on it. Debating someone who's willing to just make stuff up on the spot is not easy.
Remember the moderator correcting Romney at one of the debates in 2012 and how much of a stink that was?


Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Linkie please.

A military coup, no. Trump has no friends among the military. But riots? Militia uprisings? In the era of Cliven Bundy, do you really think it's so unlikely?

Turin the Mad wrote:

American history is an armed insurrection circa 1776. With help from France, the insurrection won.

Is there a point to this statement?

A reply to "Great, the Cinnamon Hitler just called for an armed insurrection/coup." upthread.

Riots and uprisings are not unique to Trumpkins. Riots at worst. A bona-fide militia uprising ... maaaaybe. I dunno if such would garner any significant initiative. Nothing that I'm aware of in the way of 'social unrest' by Trumpkins has attained any significant steam.

So-and-so is grarr'ing mah gun rights! has been political football for an awfully long time. *shrugs*


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Turin the Mad wrote:
Rednal wrote:
He's suggested "Second Amendment People" could stop her from picking undesirable Supreme Court Justices.
This does not translate into assassination. People could do something about it without going anywhere close to such things. Remember the earlier post upthread about how few people call their Congresscritters' offices? :)

You can't be serious here.

He began the remark with "if she gets the pick" — which presumes she's already won the Presidency — then says, "although the Second Amendment people, maybe there is."

His intent is crystal clear.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

I don't think that there has been a state within the last 120 years whose electors actually went off the reservation.

There has been a move by Republicans to move Electoral college results by congressional district instead of states as a whole. This would give them a tremendous advantage over urban voters. They want to break up California for simmilar advantage.

Good god. They literally hate democracy. Gerrymandering our districts wasn't enough?

Maine actually has a push right now for ranked-choice balloting. This year is probably the best advertisement for that kind of system you're ever going to get.

It's the reason that districts are being gerrymandered in the first place.

They don't hate democracy... they simply just want it to apply to what they consider "Real Americans".

Sadly, the motive is the retention of political power. Both majority parties have been doing this for a few decades (perhaps longer?) now. ;)


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Thomas Seitz wrote:

K-Cleaver,

God I hope milita uprising don't happen. Cause if they do, I'm starting my own based on King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table.

I'm in favor of electing James Jacobs as our King. :p :)

The guy is weak on monstrous races' rights, and I worry he's going to overprioritize Chelaxian issues.

Don't worry I plan on instituting The Code and the Measure as a backup.

Nothing else, we might get Hellknights as our new overseas enforcers. :)


thunderspirit wrote:
Turin the Mad wrote:
Rednal wrote:
He's suggested "Second Amendment People" could stop her from picking undesirable Supreme Court Justices.
This does not translate into assassination. People could do something about it without going anywhere close to such things. Remember the earlier post upthread about how few people call their Congresscritters' offices? :)

You can't be serious here.

He began the remark with "if she gets the pick" — which presumes she's already won the Presidency — then says, "although the Second Amendment people, maybe there is."

His intent is crystal clear.

Or maybe the Republican Congress will simply block supreme court justices for the next 4-8 years or until the Democrats knuckle under.


Kryzbyn wrote:
A barbell could slip and break his neck, perhaps.

Yeah...no. Not at all what I was suggesting. Kinda the opposite, actually. But I suspect you know that?


thunderspirit wrote:
Turin the Mad wrote:
Rednal wrote:
He's suggested "Second Amendment People" could stop her from picking undesirable Supreme Court Justices.
This does not translate into assassination. People could do something about it without going anywhere close to such things. Remember the earlier post upthread about how few people call their Congresscritters' offices? :)

You can't be serious here.

He began the remark with "if she gets the pick" — which presumes she's already won the Presidency — then says, "although the Second Amendment people, maybe there is."

His intent is crystal clear.

At no point in his speech that I've seen quoted does he advocate violence, let alone assassination.


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Turin the Mad wrote:


A reply to "Great, the Cinnamon Hitler just called for an armed insurrection/coup." upthread.

I can't claim credit for the Cinnamon Hitler. That was totally Trevor Noah.


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Turin the Mad wrote:
Rednal wrote:
He's suggested "Second Amendment People" could stop her from picking undesirable Supreme Court Justices.
This does not translate into assassination. People could do something about it without going anywhere close to such things. Remember the earlier post upthread about how few people call their Congresscritters' offices? :)
Quote:
“If she gets to pick her judges, nothing you can do, folks,” he said, adding: “Although the second amendment people – maybe there is, I don’t know.”

I suppose that reaches the level of plausible deniability: "OF course I meant that people who like the 2nd Amendment could call her office."

It's not clear why there's "nothing you can do", other than the "second amendment people", in that interpretation.

It's bullshit. It's obvious what he's saying and his audience knows exactly what he meant.


Turin the Mad wrote:
thunderspirit wrote:
Turin the Mad wrote:
Rednal wrote:
He's suggested "Second Amendment People" could stop her from picking undesirable Supreme Court Justices.
This does not translate into assassination. People could do something about it without going anywhere close to such things. Remember the earlier post upthread about how few people call their Congresscritters' offices? :)

You can't be serious here.

He began the remark with "if she gets the pick" — which presumes she's already won the Presidency — then says, "although the Second Amendment people, maybe there is."

His intent is crystal clear.

At no point in his speech that I've seen quoted does he advocate violence, let alone assassination.

What exactly would "Second Amendment" refer to then, since it's about nothing other than guns, (although one might stretch to argue for the right to put a tactical nuclear missle on one's property)?


Drah,

*raises his hand* Uhm I have some. ;)


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
thunderspirit wrote:
Turin the Mad wrote:
Rednal wrote:
He's suggested "Second Amendment People" could stop her from picking undesirable Supreme Court Justices.
This does not translate into assassination. People could do something about it without going anywhere close to such things. Remember the earlier post upthread about how few people call their Congresscritters' offices? :)

You can't be serious here.

He began the remark with "if she gets the pick" — which presumes she's already won the Presidency — then says, "although the Second Amendment people, maybe there is."

His intent is crystal clear.

Or maybe the Republican Congress will simply block supreme court justices for the next 4-8 years or until the Democrats knuckle under.

The obvious answer to that is to make sure it's a Democratic Senate.

Even without that, I don't think they can. I don't think they will. A serious attempt to do so will cost them too much. It'll become more and more obvious. Supreme Court Justices are too high profile. OTOH, they've surprised me before. I didn't really expect Scalia's replacement to be shut down so blatantly.

We'll likely know in November. I suspect the plan is to push Garland through if Clinton wins and even more so if Senate flips Democratic. Get the relatively moderate nominee in and keep her from nominating an even more liberal one.


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thunderspirit wrote:
Turin the Mad wrote:
Rednal wrote:
He's suggested "Second Amendment People" could stop her from picking undesirable Supreme Court Justices.
This does not translate into assassination. People could do something about it without going anywhere close to such things. Remember the earlier post upthread about how few people call their Congresscritters' offices? :)

You can't be serious here.

He began the remark with "if she gets the pick" — which presumes she's already won the Presidency — then says, "although the Second Amendment people, maybe there is."

His intent is crystal clear.

Next thing, he'll probably say "lone wolf" a few times. Y'know, just coincidentally.

Look, I've said it before and I'll say it again, right here on these very message boards: I'm a gun owner who's completely fine with the idea of regulating gun ownership. Trump can try to appeal to me with whatever soundbyte he chooses, that dude just bums me out no matter what.


ninjaed


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I think you mean this Abraham

Sovereign Court

Kobold Cleaverton wrote:
I know how my state works. I also know that the Willamette Valley....

Willamette hops has got to be a good enough reason to live there....imma brew me some beer this weekend.....what were we talkin about again?


bugleyman wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:
A barbell could slip and break his neck, perhaps.
Yeah...no. Not at all what I was suggesting. Kinda the opposite, actually. But I suspect you know that?

I know that's what happened to a guy that was supposed to testify against Hillary, but only Anti Trump people should worry, amirite?


Kryzbyn wrote:
bugleyman wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:
A barbell could slip and break his neck, perhaps.
Yeah...no. Not at all what I was suggesting. Kinda the opposite, actually. But I suspect you know that?
I know that's what happened to a guy that was supposed to testify against Hillary, but only Anti Trump people should worry, amirite?

facepalm I am so embarassed for you.

maybe it's poe'slaw? please be poe'slaw.


Sure, why not?

Is that like cole'slaw?


Turin the Mad wrote:
A bona-fide militia uprising ... maaaaybe.

Then there's this

Constitutional Sheriffs' Movement


Kryzbyn wrote:

Sure, why not?

Is that like cole'slaw?

Poe's law is when the subject of parody is sufficiently ridiculous that you can't tell the difference between the parody or the real thing.


I wish it was parody...


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CrystalSeas wrote:
Turin the Mad wrote:
A bona-fide militia uprising ... maaaaybe.

Then there's this

Linkified

I doubt there's enough organization to actually mount a real revolution, but I'd definitely expect more of this kind of thing and more of the linked Bundy style militias. The more Clinton is painted as illegitimate, the more emboldened they'll be.


Kryzbyn wrote:
I wish it was parody...

Are you serious? You have to be aware of how much bs that list is.

Silver Crusade Contributor

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That sure does look like a trustworthy and accurate source of information, right there.


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Kryzbyn wrote:
I wish it was parody...

Just to be clear: You wish it was parody because it's crazy that some people believe this, not you wish it was parody because you think the Clintons really are murdering people right and left? Right?


thejeff wrote:
CrystalSeas wrote:
Turin the Mad wrote:
A bona-fide militia uprising ... maaaaybe.

Then there's this

Linkified

I doubt there's enough organization to actually mount a real revolution, but I'd definitely expect more of this kind of thing and more of the linked Bundy style militias. The more Clinton is painted as illegitimate, the more emboldened they'll be.

His base IIRC trends older. My thinking is that most retirees/near retirees are not going to be so motivated to do more than complain.

Of course his younger base might try something. I don't think the next few years are going to be pretty...


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MMCJawa wrote:

My thinking is that most retirees/near retirees are not going to be so motivated to do more than complain.

Well, the Colorado abortion clinic shooter was 57. Although, that might actually qualify him for Trump's "younger base"


MMCJawa wrote:
thejeff wrote:
CrystalSeas wrote:
Turin the Mad wrote:
A bona-fide militia uprising ... maaaaybe.

Then there's this

Linkified

I doubt there's enough organization to actually mount a real revolution, but I'd definitely expect more of this kind of thing and more of the linked Bundy style militias. The more Clinton is painted as illegitimate, the more emboldened they'll be.

His base IIRC trends older. My thinking is that most retirees/near retirees are not going to be so motivated to do more than complain.

Of course his younger base might try something. I don't think the next few years are going to be pretty...

I dunno - what was the average age at the Bundy standoff? Or the thing in Oregon?

What's the average age of a county sheriff in this crazy movement?

Most of them ain't spring chickens.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
thejeff wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:
I wish it was parody...
Just to be clear: You wish it was parody because it's crazy that some people believe this, not you wish it was parody because you think the Clintons really are murdering people right and left? Right?

I know you're smarter than that, Kryzbyn. Jeez, even the blogspeak drivel on Huffington Post at least links to pseudo-sources.

There are plenty of legitimate reasons to disapprove of Hillary Clinton without resorting to fictions, conspiracy theories, and half-truths.


I don't think that's actually the case.
Do I believe they are capable of it? Yes, I do, as far as they are white, rich and very politically connected. Cynicism, I suppose.
As I often say, public perception is what matters. If more people believe Hillary is capable of these things than Trump, then all of the sky falling about "Cinnamon Hitler" won't matter.


thunderspirit wrote:


There are plenty of legitimate reasons to disapprove of Hillary Clinton without resorting to fictions, conspiracy theories, and half-truths.

Yes but all of those reasons go triple for trump, so they need to make up stuff.


Kalindlara wrote:
That sure does look like a trustworthy and accurate source of information, right there.

What does?

Also no love for my link? :p ;)


BigNorseWolf wrote:
thunderspirit wrote:


There are plenty of legitimate reasons to disapprove of Hillary Clinton without resorting to fictions, conspiracy theories, and half-truths.

Yes but all of those reasons go triple for trump, so they need to make up stuff.

Not to provoke anyone into a flame war, but what are those legitimate reasons, exactly? A 35 year long smear campaign by conservative talk radio mouth pieces does not equal factual evidence.


Hitdice wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
thunderspirit wrote:


There are plenty of legitimate reasons to disapprove of Hillary Clinton without resorting to fictions, conspiracy theories, and half-truths.

Yes but all of those reasons go triple for trump, so they need to make up stuff.
Not to provoke anyone into a flame war, but what are those legitimate reasons, exactly? A 35 year long smear campaign by conservative talk radio mouth pieces does not equal factual evidence.

She's a shill of big business, it's all about her, she's just going to make the rich richer, she doesn't care about the voters, it's all about getting her name on legislation...


That's all vague bullshit, you got anything that you know for sure.

Please, be as specific as possible.


Knowing BNW, he was speaking (posting, I guess, in this case?) ironically. /wink


Yeah all that is questioning intentions, and on a forum with debates about RAW and RAI we should all understand the pitfalls of trying to ascribe intentions to someone else.


*ascribe the intention for when he dies to join the active roster of Avengers*


Hitdice wrote:
Knowing BNW, he was speaking (posting, I guess, in this case?) ironically. /wink

nah, I'm being serious this time. Captain yesterday: vague is fine. Bullshit it is not.

She's for the transpacific trade partnership which.. how on earth is this supposed to help american workers? We don't put tarrifs on them, and they break their promises to pay their workers and not pollute

She voted for the war in iraq, which is the most blatant piece of corporate welfare and influence since we invaded south america on behalf of dole fruit.

She voted for the patriot act (twice)

She voted for the wallstreet bailout.

is it really too much to ask for a Fiscal policy left of Reagan?


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Kryzbyn wrote:

I don't think that's actually the case.

Do I believe they are capable of it? Yes, I do, as far as they are white, rich and very politically connected. Cynicism, I suppose.
As I often say, public perception is what matters. If more people believe Hillary is capable of these things than Trump, then all of the sky falling about "Cinnamon Hitler" won't matter.

Well, no shit. It's pretty much a truism. If more people think candidate A is horrible than think candidate B is horrible, then candidate B is likely to win. Luckily, while thirty years of propaganda and a good deal of sexism have lowered Hillary Clinton's popularity, it's a tiny minority that actually believes the crazy conspiracy theories.

Meanwhile, the sky is falling attitude about Trump comes directly from his own statements and behavior on the campaign trail.

And seriously? You're so cynical that you've wrapped around to credulous? Here's a half-baked conspiracy theory about nearly 50 murders over multiple years that's been debunked many times and has no evidence behind it but the thinnest bits of coincidence. You don't even claim to believe it but pass it on anyway because you think they're capable of it, just because they're rich, white and politically connected. Is everyone in that boat both morally and practically capable of organized conspiracies on this scale? Dozens of deaths, all disguised as accidents, suicides, natural causes or just random street crime?
While the Clintons are politically connected, they also have well connected political enemies - who've spent millions and years trying to prove them guilty of pretty much anything. If there was anything to this nonsense, that apparently random conspiracy theorists can figure out, why have none of the investigations of the Clintons over the years found anything? If the Clintons are so powerful and so connected they can keep any investigation from finding anything so obvious, why do they allow all the probes in the first place?

It's so damn stupid. Everytime someone throws one of these bullshit accusations out there, even or maybe especially, with this kind of "I don't really believe this, but I've heard and it could be..." evasion, I like her more. Just thinking of all she's had to put up with makes it easier for me to ignore where I disagree with her.


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captain yesterday wrote:
Links? Or more b$%%!*!@.

Now knock that off


I've never heard of that website.

The whole article sounds like sour grapes to me.


captain yesterday wrote:

I've never heard of that website.

The whole article sounds like sour grapes to me.

*hands captain a bottle of wine*


I don't drink.

Liberty's Edge

I weep for my country.
I heard a Republican say recently that he was planning to vote for Hillary Clinton, finding malaria preferable to ebola.


I do, I'll take two bottles of that thar wine!


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captain yesterday wrote:
I don't drink.

Okay here's a cookie instead.

*hands the bottle of wine to Hitdice*

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