Hey Everyone!
Last year I posted something similar but life happened and I didn't get to play the character. Now it is really happening soon and I would love to see what you all have to say.
I would love to hear your thoughts on how effective this build would be in combat. Normally I'm pretty story and roleplay focused and don't try and overly optimize or prepare my characters but this guy is special to me and I would like him to be a bad ass.
It is a character I am very excited about. He is a reincarnated character of the character I played from ages 14-23. All the guys I grew up playing with are playing second generation characters of our original hero's and it will be very special. Originally this character was a rouge and now he is a Slayer in this life.
My DM allows:
- Scimitars to be light weapons on duel welding.
- Slayers/Rouges/Ninjas to repeat on their abilities choices (like combat feats and he adds Skill focus)
- He also allows any 3.0-3.5 book for feats and such.
So here it is:
STR: 20
DEX: 18
Con:18
INT:16
WIS:12
CHA:17
Favored Class is Slayer: Humans can chose 1/6 a Slayer ability to get one full one every 6th level.
Human Feat:TWF
1st level: Double Slice
2nd level: Slayer Talent: Rogue Talent - Combat Expertise
3rd level: Telling Blow (3.5 Players Handbook 2)
4th level: Skill Focus: Acrobatics (DM Allows Skill Focus as Slayer Talent)
5th level: Lethal Acrobatics
6th level: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style Feat 1: Improved Two Weapon Feint
6th Level: Slayer favored Class Ability: Combat Trick: Quick Draw
7th level: ITWF
8th level: Slayer Talent: Rogue Talent - Combat Reflex
9th level: Improved Critical
10th level: Slayer Talent: Rogue Talent -Combat Trick: Vexing Flanker (3.5 Players Handbook 2)
11th level: Critical Focus
12th level: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style Feat 2 - Two Weapon Rend
12th level: Slayer Favored Class Ability: Ranger Combat Style Feat 3: GTWF
13th level: Bleeding Critical
14th level: Slayer Talent: Ninja Trick Feat: Acrobatic Strike
15th level: Improved Trip
16th level: Slayer Talent: Opportunist
17th level: Double Hit (3.5 Miniatures Handbook)
18th level: Step Up
18th level: Slayer Favored Class Ability: Ninja Trick Feat: Disorienting Maneuver
19th level: Hammer the Gap
20th level: Slayer Talent: Rogue Talent - Weapon Focus
Please let me know your thoughts and thank you ahead of time. I just am curious if you think he will be effective or if you have a better feat or talent you think would make him better in combat. Thank you!
I would swap wis and cha. Gives you a better will save. But with stats like yours you'll be pretty boss whatever you do.
I would swap wis and cha. Gives you a better will save. But with stats like yours you'll be pretty boss whatever you do.
I totally agree with that move. Thank you for your reply. I would totally do that, but the high charisma is one of the only things I am doing for story and roleplay purposes in the build.
I want him to be a very charming, funny, and an effective diplomat and liar when he needs to. Skills wise that is where he will be. Plus it will help for feint.
Otherwise I would totally switch those around. Good call though. You're totally right.
Yeah the stats are high. The DM had him reborn and he used to be frail and his stats were shit last time around so the DM gave me those crazy scores as part of the story. He was born the perfect specimen of a human as far as physically. Totally different then his last go around. He was a very weak small grey elf with a sour personality. Now he is a big strong human with a happy and funny personality. Should be fun to try and make him so very different while at the same time similar to the last time he was alive.
Thanks again!
You can't take ITWF with slayer talent ranger combat style 1
The first time you choose it you are restricted to the level two list.
I see. Hmmm I guess we house rule so much differently that it makes this whole posting and getting feedback difficult. I really appreciate your input. As long as I don't take it till level 6 and I wouldn't be getting it any sooner than is allowed by the Ranger Class meaning not getting the combat feat ITWF at 2nd level, and I took the preq feat before it, my DM will let me take that. If that makes any sense? Thank you for your reply, anything else you see?
What's with the titan-like stats? If your GM allows those why not drop the pretense of rolling/point-buy/balance and just take all 18s or 20s across the board?
What's with the titan-like stats? If your GM allows those why not drop the pretense of rolling/point-buy/balance and just take all 18s or 20s across the board?
Well, we as a group have always played on the higher end of power anyway, but the high stats in this case are because this is a special character and a special group. Basically we have played together for 15 years real world and these are all of our favorite characters we played for the majority of that time kids and such, for the exception of mine which is a reincarnation of my last character, so that is kinda why. Also everyone is getting like one or two items passed down from their characters for the exception of mine so he gets higher stats.
Normally we roll like normal. It has never really been a problem though as we all kinda just make the monsters harder if the characters are powerful and we are lean on magic. Always has worked for us. I do understand we aren't the norm though.
What's with the titan-like stats? If your GM allows those why not drop the pretense of rolling/point-buy/balance and just take all 18s or 20s across the board?
Hahahaha! Yeah it's pretty long. I got carried away, very excited to be playing this character. I had so much fun as a teen and young adult playing his first version that I am excited to get back at it.
Yeah I'll be allowed to pick up Improved Two Weapon Feint with the slayer talent because it is offered at that level in the Ranger Combat style I am taking. As long as you have to two weapons and it is in the ranger category it should work. It is unusual though huh?
Combat expertise is for the Trip stuff later on. Don't think its worth it? What would you put in its place?
Holy crap, dem attribute scores. And long thread title is long.
I won't lie when I say that feinting, in my experience and personal opinion, are crappy and suboptimal options to take. If you're really committed to the flavor, then go for it, since your statistics are all positive scores, but the action economy and time it takes to set up to get rolling really gets in the way.
The way I see it, if you can't perform a Feint as a Swift/Free Action (or even just to substitute an attack if it comes down to it), then it's just a waste of feats. Also consider what you're aiming for, and why you're aiming for it. From what I can tell, you're wanting to pick up Feinting so you can deny enemies your I also notice that you aren't taking essential feats like Improved Feint, Greater Feint, etc. which would greatly help with you applying your Feint benefits, to not only yourself, but all your allies as well. Also, Trip sucks nuts unless you're Gargantuan size or larger, because if a creature is more than 2 sizes larger than you (it happens quite regularly), then you can't Trip them, period. In other cases, many creatures have inherent bonuses to being tripped for having a lot of legs, or can't be tripped because they're flying or don't use legs to move around. Too many common ways to outright defeat the purpose of Tripping.
What also helps is getting some "teamwork" feats, such as Outflank (doubles flanking bonuses, critical hits provoke an attack of opportunity for your flank buddy), Gang Up (as long as 3 of you are beating on the same target, you're considered flanking), etc. Another feat to take is Accomplished Sneak Attacker, so you can improve your Sneak Attack damage dice more similar to that of a Rogue.
As others have said, substitute your Wisdom for your Charisma score; you don't use Charisma for hardly anything, and your Will Saves are lacking. Plus, some of the more useful skills in the game are keyed to Wisdom, not Charisma, so keep that in mind if your argument is "Charisma is needed for skill bonuses."
I'd also suggest you clean up your feat progression, because it looks like you're trying to go all directions at once; the best course of action is to find your most important goal feat-wise, and put all of your energy towards that. When it's finished (or in an acceptable state), then work towards the next most important goal, and so on and so on until you run out, in which case you get cookie cutter stuff like Iron Will, Improved Initiative, etc.
EDIT: Ah, I read Improved Two Weapon Feint wrong. Sorry. It should work without a problem.
If you need Combat Expertise for Tripping, go ahead. It's usually regarded as a very sub-par option, sadly. But you seem to have enough to go around already without it being a problem.
It's all good man, it is kinda a little weird sense a lot of it is house rules and not normal.
Well, do you have any suggestions on how to bring more damage without the tripping and preq?
Holy crap, dem attribute scores. And long thread title is long.
I won't lie when I say that feinting, in my experience and personal opinion, are crappy and suboptimal options to take. If you're really committed to the flavor, then go for it, since your statistics are all positive scores, but the action economy and time it takes to set up to get rolling really gets in the way.
The way I see it, if you can't perform a Feint as a Swift/Free Action (or even just to substitute an attack if it comes down to it), then it's just a waste of feats. Also consider what you're aiming for, and why you're aiming for it. From what I can tell, you're wanting to pick up Feinting so you can deny enemies your I also notice that you aren't taking essential feats like Improved Feint, Greater Feint, etc. which would greatly help with you applying your Feint benefits, to not only yourself, but all your allies as well. Also, Trip sucks nuts unless you're Gargantuan size or larger, because if a creature is more than 2 sizes larger than you (it happens quite regularly), then you can't Trip them, period. In other cases, many creatures have inherent bonuses to being tripped for having a lot of legs, or can't be tripped because they're flying or don't use legs to move around. Too many common ways to outright defeat the purpose of Tripping.
What also helps is getting some "teamwork" feats, such as Outflank (doubles flanking bonuses, critical hits provoke an attack of opportunity for your flank buddy), Gang Up (as long as 3 of you are beating on the same target, you're considered flanking), etc. Another feat to take is Accomplished Sneak Attacker, so you can improve your Sneak Attack damage dice more similar to that of a Rogue.
As others have said, substitute your Wisdom for your Charisma score; you don't use Charisma for hardly anything, and your Will Saves are lacking. Plus, some of the more useful skills in the game are keyed to Wisdom, not Charisma, so keep that in mind if your argument is "Charisma is needed for skill...
Yeah I know this is a huge title! Haha my bad I got excited.
So with Improved Two Weapon feint I so substitute my first attack for the feint bonus? Right? Or do I have that wrong? And if that's the case you still think it isn't worth it?
Okay so if feinting is a bad option is there a feat tree or something you would replace it with if you were using my build. Like something with a similar style?
any suggestions for some replacements for the trip feats then that help me control the battlefield more than just damage and that can also set up sneak attacks and make it more likely to confirm crits?
I like the teamwork feats, but don't the other players have to take them to? I might be able to work that out with my DM but for right now I think I would have to talk the other players into taking feats with me. Or do I have that wrong?
I like Accomplished Sneak Attacker and I think I could totally do that one. Now what to take out hahaha.
The charisma thing is a thing my DM likes and he would be less cool about some other stuff if I didn't keep where it is at. I think he likes that I have a low will save and I'm cool with deficiency. I totally agree with you otherwise that it should be moved I just can't as it is. Plus it isn't so bad I wanted to have a good diplomacy and bluff, and am taking a perform skill for flare that I want to be up high so every point helps.
Thank you for your very detailed and awesome response I can't wait to hear more of what you think.
Feinting isn't a bad option with improved tw feint
I want to say there is some feat that helps feinting against things that you normally have a harder time with...can't think of name.
I looked and I looked and I looked and I didn't see anything like that.
I understand you want to keep the high Cha for roleplay reasons and whatnot... But if you're going to do it, you really should do something about your Will save.... Get a trait and/or feat that boosts that save, prioritize Cloaks of Resistance and Headbands of Wis (you don't need to boost Int/Cha any ügher than that), etc...
A weak will save is not just a minor deficiency. It'll get your character (and possibly his friends) killed. Or at very least neutralized for a whole battle.
...Holy crap, dem attribute scores. And long thread title is long.
I won't lie when I say that feinting, in my experience and personal opinion, are crappy and suboptimal options to take. If you're really committed to the flavor, then go for it, since your statistics are all positive scores, but the action economy and time it takes to set up to get rolling really gets in the way.
The way I see it, if you can't perform a Feint as a Swift/Free Action (or even just to substitute an attack if it comes down to it), then it's just a waste of feats. Also consider what you're aiming for, and why you're aiming for it. From what I can tell, you're wanting to pick up Feinting so you can deny enemies your I also notice that you aren't taking essential feats like Improved Feint, Greater Feint, etc. which would greatly help with you applying your Feint benefits, to not only yourself, but all your allies as well. Also, Trip sucks nuts unless you're Gargantuan size or larger, because if a creature is more than 2 sizes larger than you (it happens quite regularly), then you can't Trip them, period. In other cases, many creatures have inherent bonuses to being tripped for having a lot of legs, or can't be tripped because they're flying or don't use legs to move around. Too many common ways to outright defeat the purpose of Tripping.
What also helps is getting some "teamwork" feats, such as Outflank (doubles flanking bonuses, critical hits provoke an attack of opportunity for your flank buddy), Gang Up (as long as 3 of you are beating on the same target, you're considered flanking), etc. Another feat to take is Accomplished Sneak Attacker, so you can improve your Sneak Attack damage dice more similar to that of a Rogue.
As others have said, substitute your Wisdom for your Charisma score; you don't use Charisma for hardly anything, and your Will Saves are lacking. Plus, some of the more useful skills in the game are keyed to Wisdom, not Charisma, so keep that in mind if your
Sorry, been busy with other debates.
Based on the wording, yes, Improved Two-Weapon Feint does substitute your first primary weapon attack with a Feint attempt, which is good; about as good as some of the Quick [Combat Maneuver] feats, though it is unfortunately feat intensive and requires a specific combat style to function (thankfully, that's what you're originally planning to build anyway).
I really only say Feinting is a bad option because it requires a lot of resources to come online, and usually requires too much set-up to work, such as not being able to full attack, at best, after a 3-feat investment (Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Greater Feint). With Improved Two-Weapon Feint (and Improved Feint so your usage doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity, of course), it's very good for solo tactics.
If you want more "control" feats, whether it is for convincing enemies to attack you, feats like Antagonize or the Step Up and Strike feat chain, are really good options, and help you utilize your Combat Reflexes, or for forcing enemies to attack you entirely, feats like Stand Still will be really helpful.
Teamwork Feats do require other party members to take them to function, but I seriously would question why they wouldn't take them, especially considering your build and character concept. Unleashing Sneak Attacks requires Flanking or Denied-Dex/Flat-Footed creatures. Flanking gives people bonuses to hit. Outflank doubles those bonuses, and whenever your flanking ally confirms a Critical Hit, you get to make an Attack of Opportunity, at your highest BAB, for free. And since you're running around with 18-20/X2 weapons (presuming to get 15-20/X2 ASAP), I'd really consider it on any martial PC, especially if A. I have a person who specializes in flanking and/or crit-fishing, and/or B. I'm a 3/4 (or even 1/2) BAB class who needs all the help he can get for bonuses to hit, and have nothing else to spend my feats on.
There is the Vanguard archetype for Slayers, which allow you to grant your Teamwork feats to other party members, so if they really don't want to take the investment, you can simply grant it for them. I don't personally like it, since it requires that you give up a lot of good options for it, but it's there if you want to consider it.
If the GM says no to substituting scores, then I suppose that's all you can do. To that end, I would suggest you pick up the Steadfast Personality feat; it allows you to use your Charisma instead of your Wisdom for Saves V.S. Mind-affecting effects. Although it's only a +2, it's actually as good as an Iron Will feat, and it stacks with Iron Will (which is another feat worth taking).
...Holy crap, dem attribute scores. And long thread title is long.
I won't lie when I say that feinting, in my experience and personal opinion, are crappy and suboptimal options to take. If you're really committed to the flavor, then go for it, since your statistics are all positive scores, but the action economy and time it takes to set up to get rolling really gets in the way.
The way I see it, if you can't perform a Feint as a Swift/Free Action (or even just to substitute an attack if it comes down to it), then it's just a waste of feats. Also consider what you're aiming for, and why you're aiming for it. From what I can tell, you're wanting to pick up Feinting so you can deny enemies your I also notice that you aren't taking essential feats like Improved Feint, Greater Feint, etc. which would greatly help with you applying your Feint benefits, to not only yourself, but all your allies as well. Also, Trip sucks nuts unless you're Gargantuan size or larger, because if a creature is more than 2 sizes larger than you (it happens quite regularly), then you can't Trip them, period. In other cases, many creatures have inherent bonuses to being tripped for having a lot of legs, or can't be tripped because they're flying or don't use legs to move around. Too many common ways to outright defeat the purpose of Tripping.
What also helps is getting some "teamwork" feats, such as Outflank (doubles flanking bonuses, critical hits provoke an attack of opportunity for your flank buddy), Gang Up (as long as 3 of you are beating on the same target, you're considered flanking), etc. Another feat to take is Accomplished Sneak Attacker, so you can improve your Sneak Attack damage dice more similar to that of a Rogue.
As others have said, substitute your Wisdom for your Charisma score; you don't use Charisma for hardly anything, and your Will Saves are lacking. Plus, some of the more useful skills in the game are keyed to Wisdom, not
First off thank you for all your long and detailed responses. Really I do appreciate it.
I think the ability to bypass the all the preqs. Make the feint thing worth it personally but I see where you come from. I'll check out the stepup and strike feats though.
Yeah Vanguard Slayer looks lame to me. I agree with you when you say it gives up a lot.
I could probably talk one of my fellow players into outflank. It wouldn't be too hard now that you got me thinking about it.
Okay, okay I'll work on the will save thing. You make good points. If your interested, I'd be pumped if you could look at a retooling of this a little later when I get a moment to kinda go over this and change him around to see what works better. If you'd be cool with that I can shoot you a message when I post another thread maybe?
Thanks again
Butterfly sting is an interesting idea I really like. I might try and fit that in. Thank you. Also MU is totally something I was thinking about. I think it blends well.
Lemmy you make good points and I might ask if the DM is okay with me switching CHA to WIS it is worth the shot right? Also, I might take some Iron Will type stuff. Good call. What would you take out to put those in if it was you?
Yeah, turning what would be a 5 feat investment into a 3 feat investment is really nice; some of the other ones usually require 4 to be good (Combat Expertise, Improved X, Greater X, Quick X), so making it only require 3 is a big step.
Butterfly's Sting is a pretty decent feat, one that synergize fairly well with the Outflank feat. It's a little difficult to break down, but as far as I know it works like this:
You confirm a critical. You pass it to your friend through the Butterfly's Sting feat. On his next attack, if he hits, it automatically confirms a Critical Hit, meaning it will trigger a free attack for you at your highest BAB from Outflank. If the ally is in the middle of his full attack routine, and you get another critical from that free attack, you can instead forgo that critical benefit, and make it so his next attack critically hits instead, and generates yet another attack for you. If your ally possesses this feat as well, the vice-versa also applies.
The up side is that you're generating more attacks for your ally (and yourself) through combining Butterfly's Sting with Outflank. The downside is that you're basically turning critical hits into normal hits to do so, and plus it requires your ally to pick up Combat Expertise, which is a pretty crappy feat tax with normally steep and undesired requirements.
This is great for characters who have 15-20/X2 weapons with on-hit effects like Sneak Attack (such as yourself). It is not so great for characters who have X4 weapons. On the plus side, if only you have the feat, it makes having a X4 weapon ally extremely powerful (since hits with their first attack are automatically confirmed), and you don't have to pass the free critical confirmation to your friend if you don't want to (such as if the enemy's next on the initiative sequence, and your critical damage would be enough to kill it).
As for when you want to post your revision, just write up a second draft and post it here. I'll be keeping a close eye on the thread for it.
Lemmy you make good points and I might ask if the DM is okay with me switching CHA to WIS it is worth the shot right? Also, I might take some Iron Will type stuff. Good call. What would you take out to put those in if it was you?
Like I said, you can keep the Cha score without problem, if you want... But you'll have to take some precautions with your will save... Simply getting a trait and a feat and buying headbands of Wis instead of Cha should work.
Additionally, buying a Wayfinder and adding a resonating Clear Spindle Ioun Stone makes you immune to possession and mind-control by Evil creatures for the low, low price of 4500 hp.
All that said... I'd drop Critical Focus. Your attack bonus is so high, you're more than likely to confirm your criticals anyway.
I'd also drop Hammer The Gap... Not because it's bad, but because keeping track of consecutive hits is a pain in the ass. >.<'
UPDATE:
So I messed with some stuff and moved it around and stripped a lot of things down and here we have an updated version based on your thoughts, I kept feint though I like it, but I feel like I listened. Anyway your thoughts:
So here it is:
STR: 20
DEX: 18
Con:18
INT:16
WIS:12
CHA:17
Favored Class is Slayer: Humans can chose 1/6 a Slayer ability to get one full one every 6th level.
Human Feat:TWF
1st level: Combat Reflexes
2nd level: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style (Faithful) Feat 1 - Double Slice
3rd level: Telling Blow (3.5 Players Handbook 2)
4th level: Slayer Talent: Skill Focus - Acrobatics (DM Allows Skill Focus as Slayer Talent)
5th level: Lethal Acrobatics
6th level: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style (Faithful) Feat 2: Improved Two Weapon Feint
6th Level: Slayer favored Class Ability: Combat Trick: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
7th level: Vexing Flanker (3.5 Players Handbook 2)
8th level: Slayer Talent: Rogue Talent: Underhanded Trick
9th level: Expert Tactician (Complete Adventurer’s Guide 3.5)
10th level: Slayer Talent: Opportunist
11th level: Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook 3.5)
12th level: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style (Faithful) Feat 3 - Two Weapon Rend
12th level: Slayer Favored Class Ability: Ninja Trick - Feat: GTWF
13th level:Greater Dirty Trick
14th level: Slayer Talent: Ninja Trick - Feat: Disorienting Maneuver
15th level: Iron Will
16th level: Slayer Talent: Defensive Study
17th level:Steadfast Personality
18th level: Slayer Talent:
18th level: Slayer Favored Class Ability:
19th level: Great Iron Will
20th level: Slayer Talent:
Lemmy that Wayfinder and adding a resonating Clear Spindle Ioun Stone thing is genius. Haha I'll see if I can pull it off sometime in game. items are a little harder to come by in our games and those that we get are normally special one offs or whatever but I'll push for that because that is pretty cool.
Also, I dropped the critical stuff and the Hammer the Gap. Might take it later on, but I thought you would appreciate that.
What level are you starting the game? You might want to get Iron Will earlier, as spells tend to become pretty deadly by levels 11+. Alternatively, you could ask your GM to allow a feat that lets you use Cha instead of Wis for Will saves. It's a perfectly reasonable and balanced feat, but I don't know how accepting of homebrew your GM is.
Skill Focus (Acrobatics) might be better left for level 10+, when it gives you a +6, but I don't know if it's a prerequisite for anything in your build.
I can't comment on the 3.5 feats, since it's been quite a while since I played that game... I don't remember much beyond what I used most and a few of the more famous combos.
What level are you starting the game? You might want to get Iron Will earlier, as spells tend to become pretty deadly by levels 11+. Alternatively, you could ask your GM to allow a feat that lets you use Cha instead of Wis for Will saves. It's a perfectly reasonable and balanced feat, but I don't know how accepting of homebrew your GM is.
Skill Focus (Acrobatics) might be better left for level 10+, when it gives you a +6, but I don't know if it's a prerequisite for anything in your build.
I can't comment on the 3.5 feats, since it's been quite a while since I played that game... I don't remember much beyond what I used most and a few of the more famous combos.
We start the game at level 1. I get what you're saying but I don't know where to fit it in and not cripple the rest of the stuff that makes him awesome in the beginning. Any thoughts on what to move around.
I think for the acrobatic stuff to work even the plus three is necessary. Between, acrobatics, feinting, Dirty tricking, and flanking I should be sneak attacking every round and most likely hitting so I think the Acrobatic Skill increase is nice to make that work more.
The feats from 3.5 are here if you are interested:
Telling Blow - Basically let's you get SA Dmg on Crits (3.5 Players Handbook 2):https://dnd.arkalseif.info/feats/players-handbook-ii--80/telling-blow--2 895/
Vexing Flanker - Basically a +4 on flanking (3.5 Players Handbook 2):http://alcyius.com/dndtools/feats/players-handbook-ii--80/vexing-flanker --3062/index.html
Expert Tactician - Basically if someone is denied dex you get an extra attack (Complete Adventurer’s Guide 3.5): http://alcyius.com/dndtools/feats/song-and-silence-a-guidebook-to-bards-and -rogues--48/expert-tactician--996/index.html
Double Hit - Basically lets you hit with your off-hand too on AoO (Miniatures Handbook 3.5):http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/feat/Double_Hit
Thank you again for your input I really appreciate it.
I's no problem... It helps me kill time.
Vexing Flanker is fully unnecessary... With full BAB + Studied Target, the +2 from flanking is more than enough. Specially considering your enemies will often be denied their Dex bonus to AC.
Telling Blow is okay, I suppose... I wouldn't bother, though. It's not a bad feat by any means, but it wouldn't be high in my list of priorities.
Expert Tactician and Double Hit are pretty cool, though.
- - -
Is Lethal Acrobatics all that good? I understand it lets you make your enemy flat-footed and move in the same turn, but there must be a better way...
I personally would take Quick Dirty Trick and Hurtful... Then you could make your opponents shaken and still hit them. :)
- - -
I kinda despise the way Steadfast Personality is designed. I really don't know why it couldn't simply apply to all Will saves, but I digress... You might want to take it before Iron Will, as your Cha bonus is higher than +2. Oh... And Improved Iron Will is a waste of a feat, IMO.
I's no problem... It helps me kill time.
Vexing Flanker is fully unnecessary... With full BAB + Studied Target, the +2 from flanking is more than enough. Specially considering your enemies will often be denied their Dex bonus to AC.
You think? I was thinking that it helps with the Disorienting Maneuver and tripping flatfooted targets without trip. Basically I can trip and all those pluses help... or wait, do I add those in... no right? Wait I just confused myself. haha.
Telling Blow is okay, I suppose... I wouldn't bother, though. It's not a bad feat by any means, but it wouldn't be high in my list of priorities.
Expert Tactician and Double Hit are pretty cool, though.
- - -
Do you think Telling Blow isn't worth it because of the low sneak attack dice? I was thinking an extra 5d6 every time I crit (I'll get keen eventually) and an upwards of 8 attacks plus AoO at 20th level wasn't a bad feat? What would you put in that slot?
Thank I think so too! Especially Double hit with TWRend and Opportunist. It's a sick combo me thinks.
Is Lethal Acrobatics all that good? I understand it lets you make your enemy flat-footed and move in the same turn, but there must be a better way...
I personally would take Quick Dirty Trick and Hurtful... Then you could make your opponents shaken and still hit them. :)
- - -
The problem with Quick Dirty trick is I would have to take all the preqs and I'm kinda starved for that stuff. Is it worth it? And Hurt Full is cool... Hmm but preqs dang it!
Lethal Acrobatics is just alright I agree but with disorienting maneuver it is awesome because, remember flatfooted people don't get AoO's so you get a +4 to trip and you don't give an AoO up. Pretty tricky eh. Basically you have improved trip as long as you tumble through there space.
I kinda despise the way Steadfast Personality is designed. I really don't know why it couldn't simply apply to all Will saves, but I digress... You might want to take it before Iron Will, as your Cha bonus is higher than +2. Oh... And Improved Iron Will is a waste of a feat, IMO.
Okay I can take out Improved Iron Will and switch those two around. That's actually a good call.
UPDATE:
So I messed with some stuff and moved it around and stripped a lot of things down and here we have an updated version based on your thoughts, I kept feint though I like it, but I feel like I listened. Anyway your thoughts:
So here it is:
STR: 20
DEX: 18
Con:18
INT:16
WIS:12
CHA:17Favored Class is Slayer: Humans can chose 1/6 a Slayer ability to get one full one every 6th level.
Human Feat:TWF
1st level: Combat Reflexes
2nd level: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style (Faithful) Feat 1 - Double Slice
3rd level: Telling Blow (3.5 Players Handbook 2)
4th level: Slayer Talent: Skill Focus - Acrobatics (DM Allows Skill Focus as Slayer Talent)
5th level: Lethal Acrobatics
6th level: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style (Faithful) Feat 2: Improved Two Weapon Feint
6th Level: Slayer favored Class Ability: Combat Trick: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
7th level: Vexing Flanker (3.5 Players Handbook 2)
8th level: Slayer Talent: Rogue Talent: Underhanded Trick
9th level: Expert Tactician (Complete Adventurer’s Guide 3.5)
10th level: Slayer Talent: Opportunist
11th level: Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook 3.5)
12th level: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style (Faithful) Feat 3 - Two Weapon Rend
12th level: Slayer Favored Class Ability: Ninja Trick - Feat: GTWF
13th level:Greater Dirty Trick
14th level: Slayer Talent: Ninja Trick - Feat: Disorienting Maneuver
15th level: Iron Will
16th level: Slayer Talent: Defensive Study
17th level:Steadfast Personality
18th level: Slayer Talent:
18th level: Slayer Favored Class Ability:
19th level: Great Iron Will
20th level: Slayer Talent:
Combat Reflexes is primarily really great if you have a means to forcefully trigger AoOs (or spend them) on your own volition. Unless you need it for a feat pre-requisite, picking up Aid Another tactics, or using a Reach Weapon (or Step Up and Strike feat chain), it's not really worth it. I'm not saying it can't be useful, but I wouldn't be too concerned about attacks of opportunity at 1st level; as Lemmy pointed out, this would probably be a good level for Iron Will, or even Improved Initiative, and Combat Reflexes can be delayed later to, say, 5th level.
Telling Blow is alright, but if you're going to be utilizing Improved Two-Weapon Feint, Flanking, etc., it seems like a bit of a wasted feat. I mean, it's okay for those levels where you can't utilize Two-Weapon Feint, or Flanking, but otherwise I'd consider retraining it to a more useful feat. The same can be said for Lethal Acrobatics.
Vexing Flanker will not stack with the Outflank Teamwork feat (not because they're typed bonuses, but because they adjust the Flanking bonus to the same set modifier, and aren't additive because of that); it's still good, since it's giving you the same bonuses as Outflank, but not being able to generate free attacks for your friend (or the friend doing so for yourself) on critical hits can hurt, and that is definitely worth the feat, for both you and your ally.
Expert Tactician looks like it functions the same as a Haste effect (though only under certain conditions), and may not stack with such; I'd confirm with your GM if it would work like the UCMonk's Flurry of Blows (where they get a free attack as their highest BAB, and it says it stacks with Haste). That being said, if it does stack, definitely worth it, and practically nullifies your attack lost from Improved Two-Weapon Feint.
Dirty Trick maneuvers require a Standard Action to perform unless you have the Quick Dirty Trick feat, but keep in mind that you cannot use both Dirty Trick and Feint at the same time, even with all of the feats (because both replace your highest BAB attack allotted from iteratives). Dirty Tricks is definitely good, but investing in both Dirty Tricks and Feinting are mutually exclusive.
Unless the GM says so, you can't take two Ninja Trick Feats.
Let's refine the feat path, since a lot of those feats and options clash with each other, or shouldn't be taken at that level, and throw in some more useful/powerful options:
Human Feat: Two-Weapon Fighting
1st level: Iron Will
2nd level: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style (Faithful) Feat 1 - Double Slice
3rd level: Improved Initiative
4th level: Slayer Talent: Skill Focus (Acrobatics)
5th level: Combat Reflexes
6th level: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style (Faithful) Feat 2: Improved Two Weapon Feint
6th Level: Slayer favored Class Ability: Combat Trick: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
7th level: Outflank
8th level: Slayer Talent: Rogue Talent: Unwitting Ally
9th level: Expert Tactician (Complete Adventurer’s Guide 3.5)
10th level: Slayer Talent: Opportunist
11th level: Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook 3.5)
12th level: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style (Faithful) Feat 3 - Two Weapon Rend
12th level: Slayer Favored Class Ability: Ninja Trick - Feat: GTWF
13th level: Improved Iron Will
14th level: Slayer Talent: Ninja Trick - Evasion
15th level: Steadfast Personality
16th level: Slayer Talent: Hunter's Surprise
17th level: Additional Traits - Reactionary and Indomitable Faith
18th level: Slayer Talent: Powerful Sneak
18th level: Slayer Favored Class Ability: Deadly Sneak
19th level: Accomplished Sneak Attacker
20th level: Slayer Talent: Rogue Talent: Weapon Training (Scimitar)
Phew, that's one big mess, and I'm not 100% sure how it all adds up, but it does synergize pretty damn well.
**EDIT** To clarify, my proposed fixes are bolded.
Also, consider some weapon properties:
Keen - Well, duh...
Defiant - Allows you to recharge reroll abilities (like Improved Iron Will) up to an amount equal to your weapon's Enhancement Bonus. I'm sure you can't double-dip this, but great to have on at least one weapon. Oh, and you can't ever forcefully drop it.
Fortuitous - Whenever you make an attack of opportunity, you can make another one right after that at a -5 penalty; only works 1/round. You might be able to make this work with the Double hit feat, creating a whole slew of Attacks of Opportunity (at very high bonuses too), but I'd confirm with the GM about that.
Sneaky - Think Hunter's Surprise, except on your weapon, and doesn't take up a Base Price Bonus. Since you'll be getting the Hunter's Surprise talent, this is good for early on, and Double+Good in the late game.
Combat Reflexes is primarily really great if you have a means to forcefully trigger AoOs (or spend them) on your own volition. Unless you need it for a feat pre-requisite, picking up Aid Another tactics, or using a Reach Weapon (or Step Up and Strike feat chain), it's not really worth it. I'm not saying it can't be useful, but I wouldn't be too concerned about...
First, thank you so much for taking the time out to make such a long and detailed post for me. I really appreciate it. Thank you a bunch. Sorry it took me so long, damn real life got in the way there for a sec.
I hear what you are saying about combat reflexes but with double hit, and two weapon rend its a nice combo that I cant hit everyone leaving or moving out of threat range with two hits and with rend most likely, plus I will be playing with a straight fighter tank type and I'll be flanking all the time and vexing flanker is on here unless I can talk him into taking outflank and then I'll take that instead, but combat reflexes is a preq for that. Also, do you think it is worth putting step up to get more AoO out of people trying to leave?
My DM did say expert tactician can stack with haste so its a solid choice me thinks. I agree with everything you are saying.
I fixed the Ninja trick feat problem. For the exception of the changes my DM is cool with (3.5 feats and Taking some Slayer different stuff like Skill Focus) it should be by the books now too.
Okay so I totally agree with you on Dirty trick. The reason I kept it in below is to have options. Lots of options. So If I can't make a feint happen, or for some reason it's a creature that is so strange I can't feint, then I can dirty trick it, or after greater dirty trick it I can dirty trick it for 1d4 rounds then feint it and more stuff happening. That make sense or you think it still isn't worth it?
I like what you did but I love the flavor of Lethal Acrobatics and and the Acrobatics feats so I put them back in there. Then I took out great iron will because I too don't think it is that great, I put back in defensive study because being not hit rocks, and I think I added a lot of what you added and tried to keep it tighter?
What love to see what you think of this one? Maybe we put in Step up instead of dirty tricks or maybe intimidation feats?
You rock! Here it is:
Human Feat:TWF
1st level: Combat Reflexes
2nd level: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style (Faithful) Feat 1 - Double Slice
3rd level: Iron Will
4th level: Slayer Talent: Skill Focus - Acrobatics (DM Allows Skill Focus as Slayer Talent)
5th level: Lethal Acrobatics
6th level: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style (Faithful) Feat 2: Improved Two Weapon Feint
6th Level: Slayer favored Class Ability: Combat Trick: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
7th level: Vexing Flanker (3.5 Players Handbook 2)
8th level: Slayer Talent: Rogue Talent: Underhanded Trick
9th level: Expert Tactician (Complete Adventurer’s Guide 3.5)
10th level: Slayer Talent: Opportunist
11th level: Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook 3.5)
12th level: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style (Faithful) Feat 3 - Two Weapon Rend
12th level: Slayer Favored Class Ability: Ninja Advanced Trick - Feat: GTWF
13th level:Greater Dirty Trick
14th level: Slayer Talent: Rogue Advanced Trick - Feat: Disorienting Maneuver
15th level: Steadfast Personality
16th level: Slayer Talent: Defensive Study
17th level:Accomplished Sneak Attacker
18th level: Slayer Talent: Weapon Training (Scimitar)
18th level: Slayer Favored Class Ability: Unchained Rogue Talent: Crippling Sneak
19th level: Extra Rogue Talent: Powerful Sneak
20th level: Slayer Talent: Advanced Rogue Talent: Deadly Sneak
Thank you again man!
EDIT:
Didn't see the weapons properties at first, but I took them all down and I will totally be asking to buy all of them I like it. Great ideas!
Combat Reflexes is primarily really great if you have a means to forcefully trigger AoOs (or spend them) on your own volition. Unless you need it for a feat pre-requisite, picking up Aid Another tactics, or using a Reach Weapon (or Step Up and Strike feat chain), it's not really worth it. I'm not saying it can't be useful, but I wouldn't be too concerned about...First, thank you so much for taking the time out to make such a long and detailed post for me. I really appreciate it. Thank you a bunch. Sorry it took me so long, damn real life got in the way there for a sec.
I hear what you are saying about combat reflexes but with double hit, and two weapon rend its a nice combo that I cant hit everyone leaving or moving out of threat range with two hits and with rend most likely, plus I will be playing with a straight fighter tank type and I'll be flanking all the time and vexing flanker is on here unless I can talk him into taking outflank and then I'll take that instead, but combat reflexes is a preq for that. Also, do you think it is worth putting step up to get more AoO out of people trying to leave?
My DM did say expert tactician can stack with haste so its a solid choice me thinks. I agree with everything you are saying.
I fixed the Ninja trick feat problem. For the exception of the changes my DM is cool with (3.5 feats and Taking some Slayer different stuff like Skill Focus) it should be by the books now too.
Okay so I totally agree with you on Dirty trick. The reason I kept it in below is to have options. Lots of options. So If I can't make a feint happen, or for some reason it's a creature that is so strange I can't feint, then I can dirty trick it, or after greater dirty trick it I can dirty trick it for 1d4 rounds then feint it and more stuff happening. That make sense or you think it still isn't worth it?
I'm not saying get rid of Combat Reflexes, all I'm saying is that you don't need to take it right away, since your Two-Weapon Rend and Double Hit do not take place until ~11th level. You can take it at about 5th or 7th level or so, and it will still be just as good as taking it at 1st level, since your Double Hit benefits will still be on schedule, letting you pick up some of your more important, yet delayed feats, at a sooner point in time.
Step Up and Strike is a 3 feat chain that can generate up to 2 free Attacks of Opportunity for you, one for them moving out of your threatened square, and another because the feat specifically lets you make an attack when you move with them. It's not a bad feat investment, but for 3 feats, it's a little much for what it does. If it was just maybe a one or two feat investment, it might be good...but to be honest, it's too situational for it to be a smart investment.
Good, it's always important to vet your options with the GM, even if the rules say otherwise; he is the final arbiter of the rules at your table, so him allowing it to stack with haste is a really good thing for you.
The big thing is that you will have to weigh what is more important, Dirty Tricks or Feinting. Dirty Tricks can overstep Feinting, truth be told, since you can Blind enemies (with say, a pouch of sand, or poking their eyes out), which denies their Dexterity bonus to AC (and can be done for a longer duration), Stagger enemies (maybe depants them or something?), Sicken/Nauseate them (a solid kick to the crotch or similar sensitive area might do the trick), and a slew of other such things, but the big thing with Dirty Tricks is that they are subject to GM FIAT. The GM might not allow a crotch shot to be a Stagger or Sicken/Nauseate effect against certain enemies, he might not allow a poking/gouging of eyes to Blind certain enemies, etc. I'm not saying that Dirty Tricks is bad; it's actually one of the best ways to debuff an enemy. It's just that it's also the one whose strength is most dependant upon how the GM flows with the ability. Some GMs may allow almost anything to happen with Dirty Tricks, others may not allow hardly anything except the rules examples, so it's important to create a few "regular" examples, run them by your GM, and see how he would run them with a slew of random creatures to get a feel as to how he would run the Dirty Tricks maneuver. But I would still suggest not running both Feinting and Dirty Tricks, due to conflicting Action Economy.
A cool, unique (, and custom) feat would be to allow you to substitute both of your first attacks from your two weapons to perform both a Dirty Trick and a Feint maneuver, respectively. Maybe call it "Dirty Feinting"?
Intimidation can be a decent (and easy to optimize) debuff on enemies. Three feats (one of which you should take anyway) and investments in Intimidate is all you need; Power Attack, Intimidating Prowess, and Cornugon Smash. Power Attack is a pre-requisite (but does give you more damage on your attacks at the cost of your already fairly high to-hit), Intimidating Prowess allows you to add your Strength score to your Intimidate modifier, and Cornugon Smash allows you to make an Intimidate check as a Free Action against any enemy you Power Attack. Just a single hit can make them Shaken (-2 to attack, saves, skills, and ability checks) for a number of rounds equal to 1 + 1 per 5 you beat their DC (which is equal to 10 + Half Hit Dice + Wisdom, I believe, fairly easy for you to do since you'll have a base +8 from attributes, +3 Class Skill, and whatever ranks you possess). You can also do this in addition to Feinting, so keep that in mind. The only big downside is that there are a lot of enemies that are immune to Fear Effects, Mind-Affecting Effects, or both, which Intimidate counts as. This is less so in the early game, but by the mid to late game, strong resistance or immunity to Fear becomes fairly commonplace. That isn't to say that this is bad, but more that it may not be as good as other options.
It's your character man, if you feel that the acrobatic feats are important (Skill Focus Acrobatics is absolutely required, because the CMD of certain enemies are appalling and difficult to overcome), then by all means take them. I merely pointed out that as long as you are flanking, feinting, etc., you won't really have a reason to use them because the purpose of using them (to get Sneak Attack) is superseded by your flanking/feinting. I mean, it's okay to take them starting out, because you won't have those options available to you. But when you have all of the tools available to you, consider retraining them, because at some point, you'll look back on those feats and be all like "Wow, I'm trying to remember why I took this feat." I've certainly done that before, so I always evaluate the feats I take, and understand why I take them, and how the function in relation to the concept that I attempt to emulate with my character, so I don't run into that problem.
Improved Iron Will can save you from getting screwed over by a bad saving throw roll (and believe me, they happen). This synergizes with the Defiant property greatly, meaning the odds of you losing by a bad roll become practically nonexistent. And to be honest, about 80% of Will Saves involve control of your character, whether through Charm/Domination, or even a Command spell, so losing one of those, especially due to a bad roll, can really turn what would be a fun table experience into an excruciatingly boring and/or painful one.
I'm not saying get rid of Combat Reflexes, all I'm saying is that you don't need to take it right away, since your Two-Weapon Rend and Double Hit do not take place until ~11th level. You can take it at about 5th or 7th level or so, and it will still be just as good as taking it at 1st level, since your Double Hit benefits will still be on schedule, letting you pick up some of your more important, yet delayed feats, at a sooner point in time.
I moved it around in the build below to 5th I think you were totally right and you rock. I had to move some stuff around, but I got it working on the beginning levels better I think.
Step Up and Strike is a 3 feat chain that can generate up to 2 free Attacks of Opportunity for you, one for them moving out of your threatened square, and another because the feat specifically lets you make an attack when you move with them. It's not a bad feat investment, but for 3 feats, it's a little much for what it does. If it was just maybe a one or two feat investment, it might be good...but to be honest, it's too situational for it to be a smart investment.
I would love to take those are the intimidating prowess things but I can't see where I would fit them in. My build is already feat starved. I really want to add power attack but if I keep the acrobatic stuff (Which I love and just need to do it story wise) then I'm going to have keep it out I think.
A cool, unique (, and custom) feat would be to allow you to substitute both of your first attacks from your two weapons to perform both a Dirty Trick and a Feint maneuver, respectively. Maybe call it "Dirty Feinting"?
I think this is the best option because there isn't any Slayer abilities or anything I can take with my talents other than the underhanded trick that I can really get behind. I try to stay away from sneak attack buffs because that has burned me before (undead, constructs, elementals, ect) but maybe I can combine them by talking to my DM.
And Intimidating strike I like but I talked to the other fighter and he said he was going that route so it seems redundant and I'll let him have his thing. I like it though and I think it is a good feat chain.
The improved Iron Will feat you sold me on but I don't think I could take it now until see what I came up with below I just remove dirty tricks.
Human Feat:TWF
1st level: Extra Rogue Talent: Lethal Acrobatics
2nd level: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style (Faithful) Feat 1 - Double Slice
3rd level: Iron Will
4th level: Slayer Talent: Skill Focus - Acrobatics (DM Allows Skill Focus as Slayer Talent)
5th level: Combat Reflexes
6th level: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style (Faithful) Feat 2: Improved Two Weapon Feint
6th Level: Slayer favored Class Ability: Combat Trick: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
7th level: Vexing Flanker (3.5 Players Handbook 2)
8th level: Slayer Talent: Rogue Talent: Underhanded Trick (See if I can Take Improved Iron Will)
9th level: Expert Tactician (Complete Adventurer’s Guide 3.5)
10th level: Slayer Talent: Opportunist
11th level: Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook 3.5)
12th level: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style (Faithful) Feat 3 - Two Weapon Rend
12th level: Slayer Favored Class Ability: Ninja Advanced Trick - Feat: GTWF
13th level:Greater Dirty Trick (See if I can take house roll Greater Iron Will)
14th level: Slayer Talent: Rogue Advanced Trick - Feat: Disorienting Maneuver
15th level: Steadfast Personality
16th level: Slayer Talent: Defensive Study
17th level:Accomplished Sneak Attacker
18th level: Slayer Talent: Weapon Training (Scimitar)
18th level: Slayer Favored Class Ability: Unchained Rogue Talent: Crippling Sneak
19th level: Extra Rogue Talent: Powerful Sneak
20th level: Slayer Talent: Advanced Rogue Talent: Deadly Sneak
And man you went above and beyound on all your comments seriously thank you so much.
The build is pretty solid.
I still think Vexing Flanker is unnecessary... I'd take it out, move a couple feats around and open space for Improved Critical (it requires BAB +8, IIRC) or Quick Dirty Trick... That feats make Dirty Trick go from good to amazing, IMO.
Honestly you could actually ignore GTWF and still be fine... An additional attack at -10 is not all that great. But it's not a wasted feat either.
Powerful Sneak is garbage. It'll hurt you far more than it'll help. Get rid of it and never look back!
The build is pretty solid.
I still think Vexing Flanker is unnecessary... I'd take it out, move a couple feats around and open space for Improved Critical (it requires BAB +8, IIRC) or Quick Dirty Trick... That feats make Dirty Trick go from good to amazing, IMO.
Honestly you could actually ignore GTWF and still be fine... An additional attack at -10 is not all that great. But it's not a wasted feat either.
Powerful Sneak is garbage. It'll hurt you far more than it'll help. Get rid of it and never look back!
I could take improved critical at 8th but does that stack with Keen?
Can I take Quick Dirty Trick without Combat Expertise? If not I was thinking of taking Deft Opportunist: http://alcyius.com/dndtools/feats/complete-adventurer--54/deft-opportunist- -572/index.html instead.
I'll remove Powerful Sneak then.
If I take improved Critical I would want to take Telling blow to get 5d6 everytime I crit.
The build is pretty solid.
I still think Vexing Flanker is unnecessary... I'd take it out, move a couple feats around and open space for Improved Critical (it requires BAB +8, IIRC) or Quick Dirty Trick... That feats make Dirty Trick go from good to amazing, IMO.
Honestly you could actually ignore GTWF and still be fine... An additional attack at -10 is not all that great. But it's not a wasted feat either.
Powerful Sneak is garbage. It'll hurt you far more than it'll help. Get rid of it and never look back!
Vexing Flanker is a ghetto, solo version of Outflank. It's not bad, especially since he will have a flank buddy, but Outflank is still better.
Improved Critical might save him some cash, but to be honest, there isn't much in the way of weapon properties that beckon him to not simply spend the money for Keen Scimitars.
I wouldn't say that GTWF isn't great, more that you need your increased BAB to pull it off. I'd actually pause it and wait until you get your 4th BAB before picking it up, so you can get better use out of it (and not have to rely so much on lucky rolls to hit).