EdwardMorganBambers's page

An absolute pleasure, I'm very glad I could help! I think there's definitely room for a variety of shapeshifting archetypes depending on what players want out of them. With respect to the Beastkin Ascendant, here's what I'd say:

If the aim is to make the archetype open to more shapeshifters, you could change the prerequisite to "you have a single-action or two-action polymorph ability that affects yourself", and then change the dedication benefits a little to accommodate any shapeshifter, with the improved attacks coming in at level 4. This would allow both beastkin and non-beastkin shapeshifters to opt into the archetype.

I'll have to see if an existing ability does this, but one suggestion I'd make is to include a free action triggered when you roll initiative that lets you immediately shapeshift with a polymorph action (with the caveat that it can only ever target yourself, and if it takes 2 actions to use then you become stunned 1). This could even be one of the dedication benefits, and would offer instant action compression.

One ability that'd be useful to have for some shapeshifter builds is to let you use your own AC when transforming into a battle form if yours is higher.

Aerial and aquatic forms are likely benefits you could enable with feats within the archetype, perhaps even feat chains if there are multiple benefits to be had for a committed player. Feats like the Summoner's Amphibious Form and Glider Form could probably be used as inspiration here.

For something more specific, like lycanthropy, I'd definitely recommend implementing a different archetype, since at that point shapeshifting would be one subset of what that theme sets out to fulfil, with the curse and its implications being another major aspect that a beastkin or other shapeshifter wouldn't necessarily want to take on.

I do agree as well that a shapeshifter who specifically wants to transform into as...

Awesome. Since it doesn’t look like my DM is going to allow this for now, I think I’ll tinker with it in the future and build off some of the things we’ve talked about to make it even better and balanced. I actually didn’t include the free-action transformation in the archetype because there’s already one in the Beastkin heritage and archetypes like the Werewolf’s Pouncing Transformation, which lets you shift and put someone flatfooted, which is less powerful then an attack though. Both of those could totally be a scaffold for a reskinned ability to fit here.

Primal Hide - Feat 8
Primal, Transmutation
Prerequisites: Beastkin Ascendant Dedication
Trigger: You enter hybrid form.
Your hybrid form enhances your natural defenses. While in hybrid form and unarmored, your skin transforms into a thick hide. You gain a +1 item bonus to AC, and your Dexterity modifier to AC is capped at +3. This item bonus stacks with armor potency runes on explorer’s clothing, mage armor, and bracers of armor.

Savage Shift [One Action] - Feat 12
Flourish, Primal, Transmutation
Prerequisites: Beastkin Ascendant Dedication
Requirements: Your hybrid form has a land Speed only.
You seamlessly blend movement with transformation. You shift into your hybrid form and immediately make a Strike. Any creature adjacent to you at the end of your transformation can be the target of this attack.

Not sure about Savage Shift, might be too good.

Thanks again for all the ideas, you’ve got my creative gears turning!

As its own, I think this is a solid archetype for someone looking to make their beastkin heritage a bigger part of their character, and all of the feats included are appropriate too, with the dedication feat looking balanced. If someone took a beastkin and wanted to take this archetype, I'd allow it without issue.

If we're comparing this to the Clawdancer, however, I do think there's room still for a slightly different archetype that caters to shapeshifters in general, with feats that would provide benefits while polymorphed like action compression, better offense and/or defense, and so on. There's a huge demand for these kinds of benefits, whether it's players wanting a stronger beastkin or more out of their battle form spells, and an archetype that simply had some kind of self-polymorph effect as a prerequisite could cover all of those bases. One of the benefits of the Clawdancer archetype in my opinion is that although it meshes perfectly with the catfolk ancestry, it's open-ended enough that anyone with the right unarmed attack can opt into it as well: something similar could be done here for a shapeshifter archetype that expected you to be able to take on a different shape, which would obviously work well for a beastkin but also be able to accommodate other builds and character concepts.

Dude, thanks so much for the feedback! I'm really glad to hear you think the archetype feels balanced! It means a lot that you'd allow it in your game without any hesitation, because that’s exactly what I was aiming for when putting this together. Great to know I’m not way off on the power level!

Alternatively, I’ve been thinking this could actually lead to a couple of archetypes. This one I posted for beastkin ascendant land, another for beastkin ascendant aquatic, and maybe a separate shapeshifter-specific archetype that focuses on more fluid transformation mechanics? Dude, that would mean players would have a beastkin option (for land or sea), a dedicated shifter option, and a werewolf option covering most bases! It might not hit every player's vision perfectly (because let’s be real, nothing ever does), but it’d get pretty damn close to hitting all the major archetypes people want with these concepts.

The idea of an archetype where you can shift into different forms is super exciting to me. It’d definitely make players feel like they’re getting the most out of their transformations.

Thanks again for the insight! You’ve really got my brain going on new ideas. I appreciate it!

Hello! I’m playing an Animal Instinct Barbarian Beastkin in a game that uses the Free Archetype house rule. So far, I’ve taken the Wrestler archetype for the first seven levels, and it’s been awesome! However, I want to dive deeper into my character’s Bear Beastkin background since it's a central part of his identity, especially with all the werecreatures in our campaign.

I know there’s a Werecreature Archetype, but I don’t want my character to actually be one. Instead, I thought it would be cool for Beastkin characters to embrace their animal nature more.

Below is my attempt at expanding on this idea. I’d love your feedback—I see this as a starting point, not a finished product. All the abilities I’ve included are inspired and directly copied from the Werecreature, Claw Dancer, Wild Mimic, and Martial Artist archetypes, with similar levels and mechanics. The flavor and names for some of them were changed. Not sure if it’s cool to post that published material here.

Beastkin Ascendant (Archetype)
Unlike the weak werecreatures, shackled by an ancient curse to shift under the full moon’s gaze, or the lesser beastkin born from accidents, fleeting gifts, or the fickle magic of gods and fey, you are something greater. You are the true child of the wild. Your beastkin blood runs deep, and instead of resisting its primal call, you revel in the raw power coursing through your veins.

While many werecreatures struggle for control, helpless against the animal within, you are no diseased werecreature. You are something rare and untamed—a Beastkin Ascendant, the apex of your beastkin lineage. Unlike the cursed werecreatures, whose very essence teeters on the brink of disease, only the strongest of their kind can even dream of what you are—a true master of both beast and self. You are what they aspire to be and what society fears most: the wilderness, embodied in humanoid form, with full dominion over your transformations.

This level of mastery is rare. Many like you are hunted down in cities as if they were common werecreatures, while others fall to the were-curse, desperate for a place to belong. Long ago, Beastkin Ascendants roamed the earth when mankind was still new and the wilds ruled supreme, before people spoke of the beastkin as they do today. But now, those capable of achieving such power are either too enamored with civilization or too terrified of the beast within, fearing—out of ignorance of the old ways—that they are no different from the cursed werecreatures.

Only the bold, those who refuse to be confined by the werecreature community or the trappings of society, possess the heart to ascend. You are one of the few—a master of your wild nature, untamed, unrelenting, and unbreakable.

Beastkin Ascendant Dedication - Feat 2
Rare Archetype Dedication
Prerequisites: Beastkin ancestry; Dexterity or Strength 4; trained in intimidation

You have ascended to the pinnacle of your kind, surpassing the natural limits of ordinary beastkin. You gain a 1st-level Beastkin ancestry feat of your choice. Your hybrid form's bite attack improves to 1d8, and you gain a claw attack (1d6 slashing, agile). Additionally, you become trained in Nature or Survival (your choice), or Occultism if you're already trained in both.

Beastial Pounce - [Two Actions] Feat 4
Archetype Flourish
Prerequisites: Beastkin Ascendant Dedication
Requirements: You are in hybrid form and have two free claws.
Channeling your primal instincts, you surge forward with blinding speed, ready to strike with lethal precision. You Leap, and if you end your movement next to an enemy, you deliver two ferocious unarmed claw strikes. These strikes follow normal multiple attack penalty rules. However, if both strikes miss, your momentum carries you off balance, causing you to fall prone at the end of your Leap.

Apex Speed - Feat 4
Archetype
Prerequisites: Beastkin Ascendant Dedication

You’re adept at using your hybrid shape’s natural means of locomotion. While you’re in hybrid form, your speed increases by 10 feet. This is a status bonus.

Apex Senses - Feat 4
Archetype
Prerequisites: Beastkin Ascendant Dedication

The eyes and noses of Beastkin Ascendant are naturally sharper than most humanoids. While in your hybrid shape, you gain low‑light vision and imprecise scent with a range of 30 feet.

Cornered Animal [Two Actions] - Feat 8
Archetype Flourish
Prerequisites: Beastkin Ascendant Dedication
Requirements: You are in hybrid form and are flanked.

You become more dangerous when surrounded by enemies. You make unarmed Strikes against two different creatures flanking you. The attacks take a –2 penalty if the unarmed weapon is not agile. Both attacks count toward your multiple attack penalty, but the penalty doesn’t increase until after you’ve made both of them.

You Don't Smell Right - Feat 8
Archetype
Prerequisites: Beastkin Ascendant Dedication

You have an unparalleled connection to your primal senses, allowing you to detect other shapeshifters and impersonators alike. You gain scent as an imprecise sense with a 30-foot range, or extend your existing scent range by 30 feet. When a creature that has transformed or is impersonating a specific creature passes within your scent range, the GM makes a secret Perception check for you to detect the deception, even without taking the Seek action. If you actively Seek within your scent range, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus to Perception checks to identify disguised or transformed creatures.

Savage Takedown [Two Actions] - Feat 10
Archetype
Prerequisites: Beastkin Ascendant Dedication
Requirements: You are in hybrid form and using natural attacks.

Tapping into your primal instincts, you pounce on your prey, aiming to drag them to the ground. Make a bite unarmed Strike. For this Strike, your attack gains the fatal d12 trait. If the attack hits, you also knock the target prone, overpowering them with raw beastly force.

Apex Form - Feat 10
Archetype Primal
Prerequisites: Beastkin Ascendant Dedication

Your hybrid shape is a hulking beast. While in your hybrid shape, you gain the effects of enlarge. At 18th level the effect acts as enlarge heightened to 4th rank.

Relentless Attack [Reaction] - Feat 10
Archetype Flourish
Prerequisites: Beastkin Ascendant Dedication
Trigger: A creature within your reach uses a move action or leaves a square during a move action.

With the instincts of a natural predator, you quickly strike to keep your prey from escaping. Make a claw or bite unarmed Strike against the triggering creature. If you score a critical hit and the trigger was a move action, you disrupt that action. If you hit and the creature leaves a square adjacent to you, you may Step into that square, keeping your prey close at hand.

Ascendant Roar [Two Actions] - Feat 12
Archetype Primal Sonic
Prerequisites: Beastlord Ascendant
Frequency: Once per 10 minutes

You unleash a roar that reverberates with the raw power of the apex predator. All creatures within a 15-foot emanation take 8d6 sonic damage and must attempt a Fortitude save against your class DC. The damage increases by 2d6 at 14th level and every 2 levels thereafter.
Critical Success: The creature is unaffected.
Success: The creature takes half damage.
Failure: The creature takes full damage and is stunned 1. If adjacent to you, the creature is
also frightened 1 for 1 round.
Critical Failure: The creature takes double damage, is stunned 2, and if adjacent to you, is
frightened 1 for 1 minute.
Your roar embodies the strength and authority of the wild, marking you as the undisputed master of beastkin.

Predator's Charge [Three Actions] - Feat 14
Archetype Flourish
Prerequisites: Beastkin Ascendant Dedication
Frequency: Once per minute

Drawing upon the raw power of your beastial heritage, you unleash a feral burst of speed and strength, tearing through your enemies with savage precision. You Stride, and this movement does not trigger reactions. During your movement, you may make up to three claw or bite unarmed Strikes, each against a different enemy. Each Strike counts toward your multiple attack penalty, but the penalty does not increase until you have made all your attacks.

The Details (skip if you just want TLDR):

I’m playing Iron Fang Invasion adventure path. My character is the Ranger with group a that has a cleric, barbarian, and rogue. My character feels like he isn’t doing enough damage or helping out his team enough in battle.

Human Ranger Level 4
STATS:
Str: 12
Dex: 20
Con: 14
Wis: 12
Int: 10
Cha: 8

Feats
My DM uses a feats point system so if your familiar with that, that’s why I have some more feats.

Deadly Aim
Rapid Fire Shot
Precise Shot
Point Plank Shot
Boon Companion

I feel like I can get more feats, the specialization feats, and the trick shot abilities. I feel like I need more room for feats? Am I seeing this wrong or should I stick with the Ranger or just dip for four levels in Fighter?

TLDR: Should I switch to fighter after fourth level Ranger to get the trick shot and are feats, or dip into fighter or should I stay in Ranger?

The build is pretty solid.

I still think Vexing Flanker is unnecessary... I'd take it out, move a couple feats around and open space for Improved Critical (it requires BAB +8, IIRC) or Quick Dirty Trick... That feats make Dirty Trick go from good to amazing, IMO.

Honestly you could actually ignore GTWF and still be fine... An additional attack at -10 is not all that great. But it's not a wasted feat either.

Powerful Sneak is garbage. It'll hurt you far more than it'll help. Get rid of it and never look back!

I could take improved critical at 8th but does that stack with Keen?

Can I take Quick Dirty Trick without Combat Expertise? If not I was thinking of taking Deft Opportunist: http://alcyius.com/dndtools/feats/complete-adventurer--54/deft-opportunist- -572/index.html instead.

I'll remove Powerful Sneak then.

If I take improved Critical I would want to take Telling blow to get 5d6 everytime I crit.

I'm not saying get rid of Combat Reflexes, all I'm saying is that you don't need to take it right away, since your Two-Weapon Rend and Double Hit do not take place until ~11th level. You can take it at about 5th or 7th level or so, and it will still be just as good as taking it at 1st level, since your Double Hit benefits will still be on schedule, letting you pick up some of your more important, yet delayed feats, at a sooner point in time.

I moved it around in the build below to 5th I think you were totally right and you rock. I had to move some stuff around, but I got it working on the beginning levels better I think.

Step Up and Strike is a 3 feat chain that can generate up to 2 free Attacks of Opportunity for you, one for them moving out of your threatened square, and another because the feat specifically lets you make an attack when you move with them. It's not a bad feat investment, but for 3 feats, it's a little much for what it does. If it was just maybe a one or two feat investment, it might be good...but to be honest, it's too situational for it to be a smart investment.

I would love to take those are the intimidating prowess things but I can't see where I would fit them in. My build is already feat starved. I really want to add power attack but if I keep the acrobatic stuff (Which I love and just need to do it story wise) then I'm going to have keep it out I think.

A cool, unique (, and custom) feat would be to allow you to substitute both of your first attacks from your two weapons to perform both a Dirty Trick and a Feint maneuver, respectively. Maybe call it "Dirty Feinting"?

I think this is the best option because there isn't any Slayer abilities or anything I can take with my talents other than the underhanded trick that I can really get behind. I try to stay away from sneak attack buffs because that has burned me before (undead, constructs, elementals, ect) but maybe I can combine them by talking to my DM.

And Intimidating strike I like but I talked to the other fighter and he said he was going that route so it seems redundant and I'll let him have his thing. I like it though and I think it is a good feat chain.

The improved Iron Will feat you sold me on but I don't think I could take it now until see what I came up with below I just remove dirty tricks.

Human Feat:TWF
1st level: Extra Rogue Talent: Lethal Acrobatics
2nd level: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style (Faithful) Feat 1 - Double Slice
3rd level: Iron Will
4th level: Slayer Talent: Skill Focus - Acrobatics (DM Allows Skill Focus as Slayer Talent)
5th level: Combat Reflexes
6th level: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style (Faithful) Feat 2: Improved Two Weapon Feint
6th Level: Slayer favored Class Ability: Combat Trick: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
7th level: Vexing Flanker (3.5 Players Handbook 2)
8th level: Slayer Talent: Rogue Talent: Underhanded Trick (See if I can Take Improved Iron Will)
9th level: Expert Tactician (Complete Adventurer’s Guide 3.5)
10th level: Slayer Talent: Opportunist
11th level: Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook 3.5)
12th level: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style (Faithful) Feat 3 - Two Weapon Rend
12th level: Slayer Favored Class Ability: Ninja Advanced Trick - Feat: GTWF
13th level:Greater Dirty Trick (See if I can take house roll Greater Iron Will)
14th level: Slayer Talent: Rogue Advanced Trick - Feat: Disorienting Maneuver
15th level: Steadfast Personality
16th level: Slayer Talent: Defensive Study
17th level:Accomplished Sneak Attacker
18th level: Slayer Talent: Weapon Training (Scimitar)
18th level: Slayer Favored Class Ability: Unchained Rogue Talent: Crippling Sneak
19th level: Extra Rogue Talent: Powerful Sneak
20th level: Slayer Talent: Advanced Rogue Talent: Deadly Sneak

And man you went above and beyound on all your comments seriously thank you so much.

Combat Reflexes is primarily really great if you have a means to forcefully trigger AoOs (or spend them) on your own volition. Unless you need it for a feat pre-requisite, picking up Aid Another tactics, or using a Reach Weapon (or Step Up and Strike feat chain), it's not really worth it. I'm not saying it can't be useful, but I wouldn't be too concerned about...

First, thank you so much for taking the time out to make such a long and detailed post for me. I really appreciate it. Thank you a bunch. Sorry it took me so long, damn real life got in the way there for a sec.

I hear what you are saying about combat reflexes but with double hit, and two weapon rend its a nice combo that I cant hit everyone leaving or moving out of threat range with two hits and with rend most likely, plus I will be playing with a straight fighter tank type and I'll be flanking all the time and vexing flanker is on here unless I can talk him into taking outflank and then I'll take that instead, but combat reflexes is a preq for that. Also, do you think it is worth putting step up to get more AoO out of people trying to leave?

My DM did say expert tactician can stack with haste so its a solid choice me thinks. I agree with everything you are saying.

I fixed the Ninja trick feat problem. For the exception of the changes my DM is cool with (3.5 feats and Taking some Slayer different stuff like Skill Focus) it should be by the books now too.

Okay so I totally agree with you on Dirty trick. The reason I kept it in below is to have options. Lots of options. So If I can't make a feint happen, or for some reason it's a creature that is so strange I can't feint, then I can dirty trick it, or after greater dirty trick it I can dirty trick it for 1d4 rounds then feint it and more stuff happening. That make sense or you think it still isn't worth it?

I like what you did but I love the flavor of Lethal Acrobatics and and the Acrobatics feats so I put them back in there. Then I took out great iron will because I too don't think it is that great, I put back in defensive study because being not hit rocks, and I think I added a lot of what you added and tried to keep it tighter?

What love to see what you think of this one? Maybe we put in Step up instead of dirty tricks or maybe intimidation feats?

You rock! Here it is:

Human Feat:TWF
1st level: Combat Reflexes
2nd level: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style (Faithful) Feat 1 - Double Slice
3rd level: Iron Will
4th level: Slayer Talent: Skill Focus - Acrobatics (DM Allows Skill Focus as Slayer Talent)
5th level: Lethal Acrobatics
6th level: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style (Faithful) Feat 2: Improved Two Weapon Feint
6th Level: Slayer favored Class Ability: Combat Trick: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
7th level: Vexing Flanker (3.5 Players Handbook 2)
8th level: Slayer Talent: Rogue Talent: Underhanded Trick
9th level: Expert Tactician (Complete Adventurer’s Guide 3.5)
10th level: Slayer Talent: Opportunist
11th level: Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook 3.5)
12th level: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style (Faithful) Feat 3 - Two Weapon Rend
12th level: Slayer Favored Class Ability: Ninja Advanced Trick - Feat: GTWF
13th level:Greater Dirty Trick
14th level: Slayer Talent: Rogue Advanced Trick - Feat: Disorienting Maneuver
15th level: Steadfast Personality
16th level: Slayer Talent: Defensive Study
17th level:Accomplished Sneak Attacker
18th level: Slayer Talent: Weapon Training (Scimitar)
18th level: Slayer Favored Class Ability: Unchained Rogue Talent: Crippling Sneak
19th level: Extra Rogue Talent: Powerful Sneak
20th level: Slayer Talent: Advanced Rogue Talent: Deadly Sneak

Thank you again man!

EDIT:

Didn't see the weapons properties at first, but I took them all down and I will totally be asking to buy all of them I like it. Great ideas!

I's no problem... It helps me kill time.

Vexing Flanker is fully unnecessary... With full BAB + Studied Target, the +2 from flanking is more than enough. Specially considering your enemies will often be denied their Dex bonus to AC.

You think? I was thinking that it helps with the Disorienting Maneuver and tripping flatfooted targets without trip. Basically I can trip and all those pluses help... or wait, do I add those in... no right? Wait I just confused myself. haha.

Telling Blow is okay, I suppose... I wouldn't bother, though. It's not a bad feat by any means, but it wouldn't be high in my list of priorities.

Expert Tactician and Double Hit are pretty cool, though.

- - -

Do you think Telling Blow isn't worth it because of the low sneak attack dice? I was thinking an extra 5d6 every time I crit (I'll get keen eventually) and an upwards of 8 attacks plus AoO at 20th level wasn't a bad feat? What would you put in that slot?

Thank I think so too! Especially Double hit with TWRend and Opportunist. It's a sick combo me thinks.

Is Lethal Acrobatics all that good? I understand it lets you make your enemy flat-footed and move in the same turn, but there must be a better way...

I personally would take Quick Dirty Trick and Hurtful... Then you could make your opponents shaken and still hit them. :)

- - -

The problem with Quick Dirty trick is I would have to take all the preqs and I'm kinda starved for that stuff. Is it worth it? And Hurt Full is cool... Hmm but preqs dang it!

Lethal Acrobatics is just alright I agree but with disorienting maneuver it is awesome because, remember flatfooted people don't get AoO's so you get a +4 to trip and you don't give an AoO up. Pretty tricky eh. Basically you have improved trip as long as you tumble through there space.

I kinda despise the way Steadfast Personality is designed. I really don't know why it couldn't simply apply to all Will saves, but I digress... You might want to take it before Iron Will, as your Cha bonus is higher than +2. Oh... And Improved Iron Will is a waste of a feat, IMO.

Okay I can take out Improved Iron Will and switch those two around. That's actually a good call.

What level are you starting the game? You might want to get Iron Will earlier, as spells tend to become pretty deadly by levels 11+. Alternatively, you could ask your GM to allow a feat that lets you use Cha instead of Wis for Will saves. It's a perfectly reasonable and balanced feat, but I don't know how accepting of homebrew your GM is.

Skill Focus (Acrobatics) might be better left for level 10+, when it gives you a +6, but I don't know if it's a prerequisite for anything in your build.

I can't comment on the 3.5 feats, since it's been quite a while since I played that game... I don't remember much beyond what I used most and a few of the more famous combos.

We start the game at level 1. I get what you're saying but I don't know where to fit it in and not cripple the rest of the stuff that makes him awesome in the beginning. Any thoughts on what to move around.

I think for the acrobatic stuff to work even the plus three is necessary. Between, acrobatics, feinting, Dirty tricking, and flanking I should be sneak attacking every round and most likely hitting so I think the Acrobatic Skill increase is nice to make that work more.

The feats from 3.5 are here if you are interested:

Telling Blow - Basically let's you get SA Dmg on Crits (3.5 Players Handbook 2):https://dnd.arkalseif.info/feats/players-handbook-ii--80/telling-blow--2 895/

Vexing Flanker - Basically a +4 on flanking (3.5 Players Handbook 2):http://alcyius.com/dndtools/feats/players-handbook-ii--80/vexing-flanker --3062/index.html

Expert Tactician - Basically if someone is denied dex you get an extra attack (Complete Adventurer’s Guide 3.5): http://alcyius.com/dndtools/feats/song-and-silence-a-guidebook-to-bards-and -rogues--48/expert-tactician--996/index.html

Double Hit - Basically lets you hit with your off-hand too on AoO (Miniatures Handbook 3.5):http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/feat/Double_Hit

Thank you again for your input I really appreciate it.

Lemmy that Wayfinder and adding a resonating Clear Spindle Ioun Stone thing is genius. Haha I'll see if I can pull it off sometime in game. items are a little harder to come by in our games and those that we get are normally special one offs or whatever but I'll push for that because that is pretty cool.

Also, I dropped the critical stuff and the Hammer the Gap. Might take it later on, but I thought you would appreciate that.

UPDATE:

So I messed with some stuff and moved it around and stripped a lot of things down and here we have an updated version based on your thoughts, I kept feint though I like it, but I feel like I listened. Anyway your thoughts:

So here it is:

STR: 20
DEX: 18
Con:18
INT:16
WIS:12
CHA:17

Favored Class is Slayer: Humans can chose 1/6 a Slayer ability to get one full one every 6th level.

Human Feat:TWF
1st level: Combat Reflexes
2nd level: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style (Faithful) Feat 1 - Double Slice
3rd level: Telling Blow (3.5 Players Handbook 2)
4th level: Slayer Talent: Skill Focus - Acrobatics (DM Allows Skill Focus as Slayer Talent)
5th level: Lethal Acrobatics
6th level: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style (Faithful) Feat 2: Improved Two Weapon Feint
6th Level: Slayer favored Class Ability: Combat Trick: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
7th level: Vexing Flanker (3.5 Players Handbook 2)
8th level: Slayer Talent: Rogue Talent: Underhanded Trick
9th level: Expert Tactician (Complete Adventurer’s Guide 3.5)
10th level: Slayer Talent: Opportunist
11th level: Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook 3.5)
12th level: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style (Faithful) Feat 3 - Two Weapon Rend
12th level: Slayer Favored Class Ability: Ninja Trick - Feat: GTWF
13th level:Greater Dirty Trick
14th level: Slayer Talent: Ninja Trick - Feat: Disorienting Maneuver
15th level: Iron Will
16th level: Slayer Talent: Defensive Study
17th level:Steadfast Personality
18th level: Slayer Talent:
18th level: Slayer Favored Class Ability:
19th level: Great Iron Will
20th level: Slayer Talent:

Lemmy you make good points and I might ask if the DM is okay with me switching CHA to WIS it is worth the shot right? Also, I might take some Iron Will type stuff. Good call. What would you take out to put those in if it was you?

Butterfly sting is an interesting idea I really like. I might try and fit that in. Thank you. Also MU is totally something I was thinking about. I think it blends well.

EdwardMorganBambers wrote:

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Holy crap, dem attribute scores. And long thread title is long.

I won't lie when I say that feinting, in my experience and personal opinion, are crappy and suboptimal options to take. If you're really committed to the flavor, then go for it, since your statistics are all positive scores, but the action economy and time it takes to set up to get rolling really gets in the way.

The way I see it, if you can't perform a Feint as a Swift/Free Action (or even just to substitute an attack if it comes down to it), then it's just a waste of feats. Also consider what you're aiming for, and why you're aiming for it. From what I can tell, you're wanting to pick up Feinting so you can deny enemies your I also notice that you aren't taking essential feats like Improved Feint, Greater Feint, etc. which would greatly help with you applying your Feint benefits, to not only yourself, but all your allies as well. Also, Trip sucks nuts unless you're Gargantuan size or larger, because if a creature is more than 2 sizes larger than you (it happens quite regularly), then you can't Trip them, period. In other cases, many creatures have inherent bonuses to being tripped for having a lot of legs, or can't be tripped because they're flying or don't use legs to move around. Too many common ways to outright defeat the purpose of Tripping.

What also helps is getting some "teamwork" feats, such as Outflank (doubles flanking bonuses, critical hits provoke an attack of opportunity for your flank buddy), Gang Up (as long as 3 of you are beating on the same target, you're considered flanking), etc. Another feat to take is Accomplished Sneak Attacker, so you can improve your Sneak Attack damage dice more similar to that of a Rogue.

As others have said, substitute your Wisdom for your Charisma score; you don't use Charisma for hardly anything, and your Will Saves are lacking. Plus, some of the more useful skills in the game are keyed to Wisdom, not

...

First off thank you for all your long and detailed responses. Really I do appreciate it.

I think the ability to bypass the all the preqs. Make the feint thing worth it personally but I see where you come from. I'll check out the stepup and strike feats though.

Yeah Vanguard Slayer looks lame to me. I agree with you when you say it gives up a lot.

I could probably talk one of my fellow players into outflank. It wouldn't be too hard now that you got me thinking about it.

Okay, okay I'll work on the will save thing. You make good points. If your interested, I'd be pumped if you could look at a retooling of this a little later when I get a moment to kinda go over this and change him around to see what works better. If you'd be cool with that I can shoot you a message when I post another thread maybe?

Thanks again

Feinting isn't a bad option with improved tw feint

I want to say there is some feat that helps feinting against things that you normally have a harder time with...can't think of name.

I looked and I looked and I looked and I didn't see anything like that.

Holy crap, dem attribute scores. And long thread title is long.

I won't lie when I say that feinting, in my experience and personal opinion, are crappy and suboptimal options to take. If you're really committed to the flavor, then go for it, since your statistics are all positive scores, but the action economy and time it takes to set up to get rolling really gets in the way.

The way I see it, if you can't perform a Feint as a Swift/Free Action (or even just to substitute an attack if it comes down to it), then it's just a waste of feats. Also consider what you're aiming for, and why you're aiming for it. From what I can tell, you're wanting to pick up Feinting so you can deny enemies your I also notice that you aren't taking essential feats like Improved Feint, Greater Feint, etc. which would greatly help with you applying your Feint benefits, to not only yourself, but all your allies as well. Also, Trip sucks nuts unless you're Gargantuan size or larger, because if a creature is more than 2 sizes larger than you (it happens quite regularly), then you can't Trip them, period. In other cases, many creatures have inherent bonuses to being tripped for having a lot of legs, or can't be tripped because they're flying or don't use legs to move around. Too many common ways to outright defeat the purpose of Tripping.

What also helps is getting some "teamwork" feats, such as Outflank (doubles flanking bonuses, critical hits provoke an attack of opportunity for your flank buddy), Gang Up (as long as 3 of you are beating on the same target, you're considered flanking), etc. Another feat to take is Accomplished Sneak Attacker, so you can improve your Sneak Attack damage dice more similar to that of a Rogue.

As others have said, substitute your Wisdom for your Charisma score; you don't use Charisma for hardly anything, and your Will Saves are lacking. Plus, some of the more useful skills in the game are keyed to Wisdom, not Charisma, so keep that in mind if your argument is "Charisma is needed for skill...

Yeah I know this is a huge title! Haha my bad I got excited.

So with Improved Two Weapon feint I so substitute my first attack for the feint bonus? Right? Or do I have that wrong? And if that's the case you still think it isn't worth it?

Okay so if feinting is a bad option is there a feat tree or something you would replace it with if you were using my build. Like something with a similar style?

any suggestions for some replacements for the trip feats then that help me control the battlefield more than just damage and that can also set up sneak attacks and make it more likely to confirm crits?

I like the teamwork feats, but don't the other players have to take them to? I might be able to work that out with my DM but for right now I think I would have to talk the other players into taking feats with me. Or do I have that wrong?

I like Accomplished Sneak Attacker and I think I could totally do that one. Now what to take out hahaha.

The charisma thing is a thing my DM likes and he would be less cool about some other stuff if I didn't keep where it is at. I think he likes that I have a low will save and I'm cool with deficiency. I totally agree with you otherwise that it should be moved I just can't as it is. Plus it isn't so bad I wanted to have a good diplomacy and bluff, and am taking a perform skill for flare that I want to be up high so every point helps.

Thank you for your very detailed and awesome response I can't wait to hear more of what you think.

EDIT: Ah, I read Improved Two Weapon Feint wrong. Sorry. It should work without a problem.

If you need Combat Expertise for Tripping, go ahead. It's usually regarded as a very sub-par option, sadly. But you seem to have enough to go around already without it being a problem.

It's all good man, it is kinda a little weird sense a lot of it is house rules and not normal.

Well, do you have any suggestions on how to bring more damage without the tripping and preq?

What's with the titan-like stats? If your GM allows those why not drop the pretense of rolling/point-buy/balance and just take all 18s or 20s across the board?

Hahahaha! Yeah it's pretty long. I got carried away, very excited to be playing this character. I had so much fun as a teen and young adult playing his first version that I am excited to get back at it.

Yeah I'll be allowed to pick up Improved Two Weapon Feint with the slayer talent because it is offered at that level in the Ranger Combat style I am taking. As long as you have to two weapons and it is in the ranger category it should work. It is unusual though huh?

Combat expertise is for the Trip stuff later on. Don't think its worth it? What would you put in its place?

What's with the titan-like stats? If your GM allows those why not drop the pretense of rolling/point-buy/balance and just take all 18s or 20s across the board?

Well, we as a group have always played on the higher end of power anyway, but the high stats in this case are because this is a special character and a special group. Basically we have played together for 15 years real world and these are all of our favorite characters we played for the majority of that time kids and such, for the exception of mine which is a reincarnation of my last character, so that is kinda why. Also everyone is getting like one or two items passed down from their characters for the exception of mine so he gets higher stats.

Normally we roll like normal. It has never really been a problem though as we all kinda just make the monsters harder if the characters are powerful and we are lean on magic. Always has worked for us. I do understand we aren't the norm though.

You can't take ITWF with slayer talent ranger combat style 1

The first time you choose it you are restricted to the level two list.

I see. Hmmm I guess we house rule so much differently that it makes this whole posting and getting feedback difficult. I really appreciate your input. As long as I don't take it till level 6 and I wouldn't be getting it any sooner than is allowed by the Ranger Class meaning not getting the combat feat ITWF at 2nd level, and I took the preq feat before it, my DM will let me take that. If that makes any sense? Thank you for your reply, anything else you see?

I would swap wis and cha. Gives you a better will save. But with stats like yours you'll be pretty boss whatever you do.

I totally agree with that move. Thank you for your reply. I would totally do that, but the high charisma is one of the only things I am doing for story and roleplay purposes in the build.

I want him to be a very charming, funny, and an effective diplomat and liar when he needs to. Skills wise that is where he will be. Plus it will help for feint.

Otherwise I would totally switch those around. Good call though. You're totally right.

Yeah the stats are high. The DM had him reborn and he used to be frail and his stats were s&*# last time around so the DM gave me those crazy scores as part of the story. He was born the perfect specimen of a human as far as physically. Totally different then his last go around. He was a very weak small grey elf with a sour personality. Now he is a big strong human with a happy and funny personality. Should be fun to try and make him so very different while at the same time similar to the last time he was alive.

Thanks again!

Hey Everyone!

Last year I posted something similar but life happened and I didn't get to play the character. Now it is really happening soon and I would love to see what you all have to say.

I would love to hear your thoughts on how effective this build would be in combat. Normally I'm pretty story and roleplay focused and don't try and overly optimize or prepare my characters but this guy is special to me and I would like him to be a bad ass.

It is a character I am very excited about. He is a reincarnated character of the character I played from ages 14-23. All the guys I grew up playing with are playing second generation characters of our original hero's and it will be very special. Originally this character was a rouge and now he is a Slayer in this life.

My DM allows:

• Scimitars to be light weapons on duel welding.
  
• Slayers/Rouges/Ninjas to repeat on their abilities choices (like combat feats and he adds Skill focus)
  
• He also allows any 3.0-3.5 book for feats and such.
  

So here it is:

STR: 20
DEX: 18
Con:18
INT:16
WIS:12
CHA:17

Favored Class is Slayer: Humans can chose 1/6 a Slayer ability to get one full one every 6th level.

Human Feat:TWF

1st level: Double Slice

2nd level: Slayer Talent: Rogue Talent - Combat Expertise

3rd level: Telling Blow (3.5 Players Handbook 2)

4th level: Skill Focus: Acrobatics (DM Allows Skill Focus as Slayer Talent)

5th level: Lethal Acrobatics

6th level: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style Feat 1: Improved Two Weapon Feint

6th Level: Slayer favored Class Ability: Combat Trick: Quick Draw

7th level: ITWF

8th level: Slayer Talent: Rogue Talent - Combat Reflex

9th level: Improved Critical

10th level: Slayer Talent: Rogue Talent -Combat Trick: Vexing Flanker (3.5 Players Handbook 2)

11th level: Critical Focus

12th level: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style Feat 2 - Two Weapon Rend

12th level: Slayer Favored Class Ability: Ranger Combat Style Feat 3: GTWF

13th level: Bleeding Critical

14th level: Slayer Talent: Ninja Trick Feat: Acrobatic Strike

15th level: Improved Trip

16th level: Slayer Talent: Opportunist

17th level: Double Hit (3.5 Miniatures Handbook)

18th level: Step Up

18th level: Slayer Favored Class Ability: Ninja Trick Feat: Disorienting Maneuver

19th level: Hammer the Gap

20th level: Slayer Talent: Rogue Talent - Weapon Focus

Please let me know your thoughts and thank you ahead of time. I just am curious if you think he will be effective or if you have a better feat or talent you think would make him better in combat. Thank you!

I will post something tonight on this.

One thing Before I start commenting tonight.

Look over the Unchained Rogue.

I can't find the Unchained Rogue anywhere on the net and I don't own that book yet. Is it somewhere I may have overlooked.

Looking forward to your thoughts.

Thanks!

Hey Fruian thanks man!

I'm about to step out with my mom all day for Mothers Day (Happy Mothers Day Mom) but when I get back the first thing I'll look at is the Unchained Rouge. I haven't seen it yet. I'm excited.

The only instant reaction I have is that my DM kinda wants me to play a different class at least a little different, but if it looks real good he is a cool guy and will let it work

I totally agree with you about stealth with the rules as written, but we have house ruled this a bit to make it pretty useful and I have a lot of fun with both the role-play aspect and the fun tactical thinking-of-way-to-be-clever-and-use-it-on-dm-process that the stealth skill provides.

Finally the owl tattoo this character was born with grants him supernatural ability to see in the dark at 120 feet. I forgot to mention that, but that will help a bit.

Thank you so much for the reply!

So my first character that I played for ten years (started when I was 14) was a rouge and he eventually ended up being reincarnated in a massive home-brew world. Well, now 4 years later I am playing that reincarnation (rest of the players playing relatives of old heroes for a fun flare) and I want him to be more combat oriented while still having that acrobatic, sneak attack, fighting flare, and being able to do most rouge stuff. The Slayer Class makes this possible finally.

BACKSTORY
If you care about back story and flavor read these three paragraphs, if you don’t you can skip to the fourth. When the original character (named Haun) was killed for the final time it was of his choosing after the rest of his party had turned to gods. You see he had been a bad character most his life and only after being sent to hell (2 year game to get him out, had to start another character it sucked) and put through numerous other tortures was he given another chance to be good. At which point he became kinda like Rorschach from the Watchmen comics. A monster to monster type guy. Long story short the group he was in, the mightiest heroes in all the planes, in order to win a massive material plane war and keep it from being destroyed took over as gods (long story) and split the plane into two by making a deal with the big evil (thought they couldn’t beat him outright).

They would split the world in two (good side/Evil side), think Berlin Wall, and all evils not on their evil side would be wiped by cleansing of evil from good guy group of gods. Well, my character didn't like this idea, disagreeing with this decision he didn’t change with them to gods and went to kill big evil guy alone as a mere mortal. Well, in this adventure he was confronted by his evil self (Basically he was so powerful that when he was given another chance his evil actually broke out of him as like an evil shadow self) and he couldn’t beat him. The only way to beat this evil other self was to become one again with it and beat the evil himself from within with his mind and actions like he should have done before in his life and so magic blah blah and boom - Thus he was born anew, a beautiful black human baby that would grow into a buff tall man (originally a pale high elf unusually short for his race and scrawny).

Well, this new character (named Midnite) doesn’t remember any of that. All he knows is that he is supposed to right the world. You see his original incarnation was right in his first life and although the party did save the world, it was a temporary fix. Born on midnight, with the symbol of owl on his back (old emblem for original character) he was prophesied by his tribes elders to slay the great evil and connect the two sides making them whole. He was trained in stealth, acrobatics, and combat. He will be a serious character but will lighten up and enjoy making fun with his companions once they get to know one another. I see him as a quiet, but thoughtful guy. Witty, but not loud mouthed. He’ll enjoy dancing and women (unlike other incarnation, poor guy died a virgin I’m afraid) and he’ll never give up once he has his preys sent. Whew okay so that is the character.

If you skipped the back story please come back now
So, my situation. I have scoured tons of books and collected the feats and abilities that retain the acrobatic, stealthy, ruthless, tricky, and nimble way I envision him fighting, but I don’t know how to optimize it. I’m not very good at that and I want this character to be good so I turn to you guys. How can I make a two weapon wielding acrobat with the following stats and feat options good at every level. Any help would be very much appreciated.

What I specific need help with: