Not while keeping the AC bonus.
note: two handed tactics interactions, you can twohand a weapon and use a buckler as it was stated before
It doesn't say anything about special abilities. You could always slap on a +1 buckler of heavy fortification or something.
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#5 There is no guarantee you'll have 25K just lying around in order to buff your shield up.
It DOESN'T cost an extra 25k. It gives you another AC slot to boost AC more efficiently.
Frankly, at all but the highest levels +6 AC is probably an overstatement. But instead of getting +5 armor get +4 armor & +3 buckler? Yes please.
Yes, it does nothing for a shield bash build, but that's it's own beast.Well... in addition to the 'buckler on non-shield arm' option, someone could also take Unhindering Shield along with Upsetting Shield to make their shield bash build a buckler bash build. Put bucklers on each arm and you can have a TWF shield bash build, with both hands being completely free for any other use at the same time. Oh... and make it a Monk, who retains all of their 'no shield allowed' abilities, just for good measure. :]
I now have my next villian! :D
I'm not making an argument for, or against Unhindered Shield. I'm just saying that relying on other characters is a dangerous position to be in, especially if you are not giving anything back. If you, on the other hand, cast Magic Vestment yourself on your own shield - then, by all means, keep talking. :)
- Not a bandaid-cleric out.
Wow wow wow, I hope that you don't ask for compensations for Raise Dead or similar magic :)
"I'm fighter, I take hits for all of you!
Oh you non-grateful bastards..." *starts muttering*
Grumpy fighter out. ;)
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#5 There is no guarantee you'll have 25K just lying around in order to buff your shield up.It DOESN'T cost an extra 25k. It gives you another AC slot to boost AC more efficiently.
Frankly, at all but the highest levels +6 AC is probably an overstatement. But instead of getting +5 armor get +4 armor & +3 buckler? Yes please.
If you want to boost that AC slot up "efficiently", then yeah, it's gonna set you back up to 25K, not accounting for special material and abilities.
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I'm not making an argument for, or against Unhindered Shield. I'm just saying that relying on other characters is a dangerous position to be in, especially if you are not giving anything back. If you, on the other hand, cast Magic Vestment yourself on your own shield - then, by all means, keep talking. :)
- Not a bandaid-cleric out.
Wow wow wow, I hope that you don't ask for compensations for Raise Dead or similar magic :)
"I'm fighter, I take hits for all of you!
Oh you non-grateful bastards..." *starts muttering*Grumpy fighter out. ;)
If the tank was that whiny and needy in the group I would be glad when they left.
Well the two weapon Fighter using a shield has +1 Ac and has to take improved shield bash, meanwhile guy number two takes unhindering shield, has -1 ac and possibly a better crit rate
You intentionally refuse to see that this feat basically enables you to fight with greatsword AND have up to +6 shield bonus to AC and gives you another item slot?
It's as if two-handed combat style needed more buffs compared to shield and sword...I'm done with this thread also. Same things all over and over again.
I hope that Paizo staff knows what they are doing.
Right now, though, I personally think that they made a huge mistake, and this should be fixed ASAP. Don't allow mad power creep that killed 3.5
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It's disingenuous to ignore the fact that S&B users can now 2-hand their weapon at no extra cost while complaining that 2-handers can now use shields.
Unhindered Shield buffs S&B just ad much as it buffs 2-handers and TWF... Arguably more, since S&B doesn't reauire any extra gold to benefit.
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Anyway - I'm done with this thread. If you are okay with the power creep I'm not going to convince you that it's a bad thing. That's an entire different discussion which would likely devolve into martial/caster anyway.
I'm surprised to see you on the side of a feat that makes it easier to keep defense relevant at high levels is bad.
Rocket tag is a factor of the game at very low and after 9 levels.If your group is on the offensive end of the spectrum.
If everyone in your group sacrifices some offense, you can get all of your defenses far higher and keep the game from going towards rocket tag. (outside of a few insta-death spells - but that's why I lean towards characters with solid saves and like dwarves)
Note: Pretty much the whole group has to do so. As soon as someone builds a glass cannon - everyone else has to shift towards offense to keep the enemy from killing them too quickly.
No - it is not possible to have too much AC.
HOWEVER - it IS possible to put too many resources into AC.
Where that line is varies, both with the character and the group you're in. The most common thing, is that as soon as one player insists on having a character be a glass cannon, it forces the rest of the party to shift more offensive so that the glass cannon doesn't die horribly before foes are killed. (That seems to be where most higher level 'rocket tag' comes from.)
If the entire group is willing to dedicate significant resources towards defense, there is no glass cannon for enemies to exploit, then the entire group won't die if a fight lasts more than 2-3 rounds.
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Well the two weapon Fighter using a shield has +1 Ac and has to take improved shield bash, meanwhile guy number two takes unhindering shield, has -1 ac and possibly a better crit rateYou intentionally refuse to see that this feat basically enables you to fight with greatsword AND have up to +6 shield bonus to AC and gives you another item slot?
It's as if two-handed combat style needed more buffs compared to shield and sword...I'm done with this thread also. Same things all over and over again.
I hope that Paizo staff knows what they are doing.Right now, though, I personally think that they made a huge mistake, and this should be fixed ASAP. Don't allow mad power creep that killed 3.5
That text was for comparing sword and board and TWF with unhindering shield, obviously you have a reading comprehension problem
Also it is as if you intentionally refuse to recognize the quickdraw shields exist... Considering your standards, if you dont like "ermagerdpowercreep" dont play pathfinder
Also mutation warrior has at least another way to use a shield and a two haned weapon, so your point is completely worthless
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Anyway - I'm done with this thread. If you are okay with the power creep I'm not going to convince you that it's a bad thing. That's an entire different discussion which would likely devolve into martial/caster anyway.I'm surprised to see you on the side of a feat that makes it easier to keep defense relevant at high levels is bad.
Rocket tag is a factor of the game at very low and after 9 levels.If your group is on the offensive end of the spectrum.
If everyone in your group sacrifices some offense, you can get all of your defenses far higher and keep the game from going towards rocket tag. (outside of a few insta-death spells - but that's why I lean towards characters with solid saves and like dwarves)
Note: Pretty much the whole group has to do so. As soon as someone builds a glass cannon - everyone else has to shift towards offense to keep the enemy from killing them too quickly.
No - it is not possible to have too much AC.
HOWEVER - it IS possible to put too many resources into AC.
Where that line is varies, both with the character and the group you're in. The most common thing, is that as soon as one player insists on having a character be a glass cannon, it forces the rest of the party to shift more offensive so that the glass cannon doesn't die horribly before foes are killed. (That seems to be where most higher level 'rocket tag' comes from.)
If the entire group is willing to dedicate significant resources towards defense, there is no glass cannon for enemies to exploit, then the entire group won't die if a fight lasts more than 2-3 rounds.
Perhaps that's the source of the disagreement. I consider AC to be something of value at high levels, making this feat extremely potent, while many seem to disagree with me.
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Something that was just awesomely pointed out to me, the Cracked Vibrant Purple Prism Ioun Stone stores a 1st level spell for only 2k.
Boom, don't even need a wand of shield or UMD anymore.
Doesn't even occupy an item slot either!
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Doesn't even occupy an item slot either!Something that was just awesomely pointed out to me, the Cracked Vibrant Purple Prism Ioun Stone stores a 1st level spell for only 2k.
Boom, don't even need a wand of shield or UMD anymore.
And you can have multiples!
Plus it's fun to watch if you have to wait around for any reason.
Well, yes, CR 9 encounters are going to have lower DCs than CR 20 ones...Throw two succubi at the party. That's cr9. Can you make those dc 23 wills saves? Sure you can.
==Aelryinth
5250 gp buys you immunity :P
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On one hand invalidating certain combat styles is really, really bad and I really hate it when that happens. On the other hand, AC is so f$@&ing hard to come by in this game that I see this feat as a nessisary evil if you want to play something that isn't hit every full BAB attack (that or some freaky multiclass option with obscure feats or spending every GP on AC) so I can't say whether I like this feat or not.
That said, this isn't even affecting touch AC, so a level 1 wizard still has an easy time pelting you with rays of frost!
One of the first properties I add to armor and shields.
5250 gp buys you immunity :PWell, yes, CR 9 encounters are going to have lower DCs than CR 20 ones...Throw two succubi at the party. That's cr9. Can you make those dc 23 wills saves? Sure you can.
==Aelryinth
lol
"Renting" a Paladin to help with a pair of Succubi just gives you a +4.
I misquoted. It is only 4250 gp
Clear Spindle Ioun Stone + a wayfinder.
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On one hand invalidating certain combat styles is really, really bad and I really hate it when that happens. On the other hand, AC is so f$@&ing hard to come by in this game that I see this feat as a nessisary evil if you want to play something that isn't hit every full BAB attack (that or some freaky multiclass option with obscure feats or spending every GP on AC) so I can't say whether I like this feat or not.
That said, this isn't even affecting touch AC, so a level 1 wizard still has an easy time pelting you with rays of frost!
One of the first properties I add to armor and shields.
5250 gp buys you immunity :PWell, yes, CR 9 encounters are going to have lower DCs than CR 20 ones...Throw two succubi at the party. That's cr9. Can you make those dc 23 wills saves? Sure you can.
==Aelryinth
lol
"Renting" a Paladin to help with a pair of Succubi just gives you a +4.
I misquoted. It is only 4250 gp
Clear Spindle Ioun Stone + a wayfinder.
Ah! Neat :3
Perhaps that's the source of the disagreement. I consider AC to be something of value at high levels, making this feat extremely potent, while many seem to disagree with me.
AC is unimportant at high level.
Until somebody breaks the game with it.
As for people building glass cannons, we have one of those in my current group. After 5 character deaths in 6 months he rolled a metal oracle wearing full plate.
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Also, the AC granted by this feat to a two-handed fighter can also be matched by simply taking quick draw and using a quick draw shield. You can even still take AoOs and keep the AC if you take Improved Shield Bash.
Same two feat investment, but this way you don't have the immersion breaking free actions to stow and draw the shield. And Quick Draw is useful on it's own.
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Also, the AC granted by this feat to a two-handed fighter can also be matched by simply taking quick draw and using a quick draw shield.Theoretically - but I don't think any GM would actually allow that since # of free actions are entirely within his discretion.
Yes, but this only needs 2 free actions per turn which is entirely within the guidelines for free actions. Hell, you could do it if they limited it to one free action per turn by burning your swift.
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Also, the AC granted by this feat to a two-handed fighter can also be matched by simply taking quick draw and using a quick draw shield.Theoretically - but I don't think any GM would actually allow that since # of free actions are entirely within his discretion.
If it's less than 5 they're screwing over archers, drawing an arrow is a free action.
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If it's less than 5 they're screwing over archers, drawing an arrow is a free action.Also, the AC granted by this feat to a two-handed fighter can also be matched by simply taking quick draw and using a quick draw shield.Theoretically - but I don't think any GM would actually allow that since # of free actions are entirely within his discretion.
They don't have to limit to a specific # - it's a matter of what kind. Otherwise a character could easily have 30 seconds of speech each round since 6 seconds worth is a single free action.
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Moving goal posts there... First it was the number of free actions... Now it's the "kind" of free actions. And of course, it's arbitrarily decided that the mentioned free action would be too much.
If it's less than 5 they're screwing over archers, drawing an arrow is a free action.Also, the AC granted by this feat to a two-handed fighter can also be matched by simply taking quick draw and using a quick draw shield.Theoretically - but I don't think any GM would actually allow that since # of free actions are entirely within his discretion.
Drawing an arrow/ammunition is actualy listed as "Not an action"
Not an Action: Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don't take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow.
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They don't have to limit to a specific # - it's a matter of what kind. Otherwise a character could easily have 30 seconds of speech each round since 6 seconds worth is a single free action.If it's less than 5 they're screwing over archers, drawing an arrow is a free action.Also, the AC granted by this feat to a two-handed fighter can also be matched by simply taking quick draw and using a quick draw shield.Theoretically - but I don't think any GM would actually allow that since # of free actions are entirely within his discretion.
it doesnt matter, you only need one free action, unless the gm is banning free actions, this is going to work
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And actually, the Viking Archetype allows exactly what you describe (Beast Totem + Fighter). For reference.So as I thought another comparison of class features with feats. Viking archetype, loses weapon training, armor training, and gains rage. Basically it's cross-breed between barbarian and fighter, and this is distinctive ARCHETYPE, not some feat that every fighter can have.
Given that my other two points actually address the complaint you made, and this one was more of an amusing aside, I'm very interested in the fact that you only responded to this one.
Indeed, given that cherry picking what to respond to seems to be a pattern with you (which is why I'm responding after all this time) I don't think debate with you is gonna be productive, and will not be engaging in it any more. I advise others to do the same.
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I think you will find a great many GM's unwilling to buy this set of actions "Okay, at the beginning of the round, I put my shield away, automatically, before ANYTHING else I may declare. Then I take whatever actions I take, and at the very end of the round I quickdraw my shield. I do this every round of combat unless I say otherwise."
I know I'd just lift an eyebrow and say 'No.' I can't even picture such a ridiculous set of actions being repeated over a character's career. That's not sword and board. That's blatant rules cheese. Nobody in their right mind EVER recommends trying to get this past a GM.
Unhindered Shield only affects bucklers. Sword and Board users don't benefit from it. 'Oh, they can now use longswords with two hands' means they are now a 2h'er using a shield. And an inferior 2h weapon. So, they are now STUPID 2h'ers.
'Oh, they can now grasp things in the hand with the buckler.' Great! Now they are ONE HANDED WEAPON USERS who can now use a buckler. Still not Sword and Board. And STUPID ones at that, if they aren't using a One Handed Weapon Style.
Sword and Board users use a shield, and a one handed weapon, they make the tradeoff of AC for damage. Spell Combat makes the trade off of casting for shield AC. TWF makes the tradeoff of more attacks with matched weapons that do more dmg for Shield AC.
Sword and Board has always been the poor cousin (well, one handed weapon is even poorer...but not anymore!) to the glamorous attacks of TWF and the mighty power of 2h'ing. It lacked damage, and the superior AC against monsters promptly spewed out tactics of 'avoid him cause he can't do dmg' as ridicule, and 'his AC don't mean crap against touch attacks' as more ridicule, ignoring the fact that touch attacks are a tiny fraction of the attacks in a standard game.
But now, you can rest and bury him.
Shield Bashing is a STUPID attack form. It's an inferior weapon, it doesn't dovetail with your primary weapon to the extent you have to do something crazy like a dual shield build to make it partially effective, and it forces you to eat TWF penalties. It's only there to get some little bit of extra dmg out of your shield, to close a little bit of the damage gap.
Shield Master, the feat, only exists to reduce the gold cost of having your shield be a level-appropriate inferior weapon. Very tellingly, it doesn't reduce the TH penalty to your MAIN, superior weapon, but to your inferior weapon.
But now, we can avoid all that.
We can gain all the best benefits of one handed style (Crane Wing and co, yay!). We can gain a stacking shield benefit instead of taking 2 weapon Defense for TWF'ers (and gods, don't ever have to use Shield bashing again. Talk about sunk feats!). Or we can just use the biggest and best weapons in the game, do all that mighty 2h'er weapon damage, and still gain the shield AC we gave up for. We can stack shield ac onto class ac and monk wis AC and have the highest AC in the game for our IUS guys.
As for Advanced Defensive Training: A cardinal rule is you try hard not to blow feats for what you can get for gold, and a scaling, permanent shield AC is merely a matter of pumping gold into your shield. You know, just like all SAB guys have always done.
ADT gives you +1 Shield AC, +2 at 9th, and +4 at level 17.
Unhindered Shield gives you +2 AC basically the instant you take it (+3 if you took Shield Focus), +3-4 3k gp later (i.e. by 8th), and by 12-14 will top out at +6-7. So, not only a larger benefit, but you get it much, much SOONER. The feats are definitely not equal, and towards the later career, 25k total invested in your AC is indeed quite minor (12.5k if you happen to be a crafter!)
Take your light and heavy shields, and just put them away, you don't need them anymore. You can get the shield AC, and put all the other shield enhancements on your buckler, that any SAB guy can, but you've got the better weapons to use, or a superior style. You don't have to trade offense for defense.
You've got it all.
This feat is already known, and it already existed in 3.5 under Improved Buckler Defense. Every build designer alive realized it spelled the end of Sword and Board, and so nobody EVER used it, it was considered a broken feat as it was published. The exchange of AC for damage was real and sensible, and IBD totally destroyed it.
This feat does the exact same thing.
I will be very, very interested if PFS lets this slide. I can see the power level of melees take a very nice hike up if it does.
==Aelryinth
If it's less than 5 they're screwing over archers, drawing an arrow is a free action.Also, the AC granted by this feat to a two-handed fighter can also be matched by simply taking quick draw and using a quick draw shield.Theoretically - but I don't think any GM would actually allow that since # of free actions are entirely within his discretion.Drawing an arrow/ammunition is actualy listed as "Not an action"
Not an Action: Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don't take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow.
Ncoking an arrow. That means placing the arrow against the string and pulling back. Drawing ammo, of any sort, is a free action.
Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.
If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one.
Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.
Please note the last paragraph.
Kindly note that the Beast Totem archetype stacks with Unhindering Shield in all forms, and has no bearing on this talk. It's also a conduit to Pounce. It also only comes into play while raging. It's main effect is to buy off the AC penalty while raging.
Rage Powers are also known to be directly superior to combat feats in all ways.
And yes, you can take Expanded Arcana to gain a 9th level spell, if you are a spellcaster. That feat DOES exist, and it's a favorite of very high level sorcs/oracles. Just so you know, that means a human FC bonus where the fighter gets a skill point or hit point, the high level sorc gets an 8th level spell. So, 8th level spell Known = 1 hit point or skill point.
Yeah, feats are balanced, right?
The main reason we are irritated about the feat is because it makes Sword and Board useless, and totally destroys the play style. Unhindered Buckler means SAB has the same AC and does less damage or has a lower AC then EVERY other combat style. It becomes a totally idiotic style to have.
Like I said, if you're okay that you make people who actually want to use shields irrelevant, and think that everyone who wants it should get shield AC...go ahead. It's a blatant power-up.
==Aelryinth
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This feat is already known, and it already existed in 3.5 under Improved Buckler Defense. Every build designer alive realized it spelled the end of Sword and Board, and so nobody EVER used it, it was considered a broken feat as it was published. The exchange of AC for damage was real and sensible, and IBD totally destroyed it.
This feat does the exact same thing.
So, in other words: "Fighters can't have nice things."
Got it.
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Shield Bashing is a STUPID attack form. It's an inferior weapon, it doesn't dovetail with your primary weapon to the extent you have to do something crazy like a dual shield build to make it partially effective, and it forces you to eat TWF penalties. It's only there to get some little bit of extra dmg out of your shield, to close a little bit of the damage gap.
Shield Master, the feat, only exists to reduce the gold cost of having your shield be a level-appropriate inferior weapon. Very tellingly, it doesn't reduce the TH penalty to your MAIN, superior weapon, but to your inferior weapon..
Shield bashing is not a stupid attack form. A heavy spiked bashing shield does 2d6 damage in my home games even if the stupid rules text in shield spikes makes it a virtual size increase. Shield master is not the only useful feat for shield bashing. Shield Slam is more useful than shield master IMO, and Bashing finish is one of the best crit feats in the game.
The only weakness of using a shield as a weapon is the poor critical profile.
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Kindly note that the Beast Totem archetype stacks with Unhindering Shield in all forms, and has no bearing on this talk. It's also a conduit to Pounce. It also only comes into play while raging. It's main effect is to buy off the AC penalty while raging.
It has everything to do with it, being a single thing that costs a Feat that gives equivalent AC and hasn't broken the game yet.
And it does way more than compensate for the Rage penalty.
Rage Powers are also known to be directly superior to combat feats in all ways.
Sure. And it's one Rage Power and no GP to get +6 AC, whereas it takes a Feat and a lot of GP to get the same with a Feat.
And yes, you can take Expanded Arcana to gain a 9th level spell, if you are a spellcaster. That feat DOES exist, and it's a favorite of very high level sorcs/oracles.
I've never seen it taken. And sure, it gives an extra spell known, but you already have 9th level spells, so it's not quite the same thing as a Feat that gives ou the ability to cast 9th level spells (which is the equivalent to what was suggested).
Just so you know, that means a human FC bonus where the fighter gets a skill point or hit point, the high level sorc gets an 8th level spell. So, 8th level spell Known = 1 hit point or skill point.
Comparing FCB gets weird and doesn't really belong in a comparison of Feats.
Yeah, feats are balanced, right?
Not remotely. Never said they were. I said this Feat doesn't seem to be brokenly better.
The main reason we are irritated about the feat is because it makes Sword and Board useless, and totally destroys the play style. Unhindered Buckler means SAB has the same AC and does less damage or has a lower AC then EVERY other combat style. It becomes a totally idiotic style to have.
SAB should be using TWF or it was already terrible. If using TWF, it does comparatively to other TWF, which is on par with two-handing a weapon in many cases, at least on full attacks.
Like I said, if you're okay that you make people who actually want to use shields irrelevant, and think that everyone who wants it should get shield AC...go ahead. It's a blatant power-up.
As noted there were several ways for a character to get a shield bonus while two-handing a weapon already. This one's a bit easier and better, but not to a broken degree.
Oh, and the Viking Archetype. Glad you mentioned it.
Yes, the Viking fighter gets rage powers late. It's a great archetype. Access to rage powers, but also, wonderfully, for it being the first fighter archetype to get a flat scaling bonus to AC. No dex required!
there was a catch, however. You were stuck into this inferior combat style. You had to be carrying a shield. Yeah, you were stuck into sword and board if you wanted that sweet AC.
Guess what? You aren't stuck anymore. Go grab the greatsword or greataxe you always wanted to, keep your class benefits, and go to town. You've got the combat feats to buy the two feats, it's cheap, and now you too, get to have your cake and eat it, too.
==Aelryinth
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So, it looks like both sides of this debate agree that Unhindering Shield is a powerful feat. Probably more powerful than a lot of other combat feats.
On side sees Unhindering Shield as the problem, the other sees the other feats being too weak as the problem.
That sound about right?
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So, it looks like both sides of this debate agree that Unhindering Shield is a powerful feat. Probably more powerful than a lot of other combat feats.
On side sees Unhindering Shield as the problem, the other sees the other feats being too weak as the problem.
That sound about right?
There were one or two people arguing that it somehow wasn't more powerful - but that's the general consensus.
And actually, the Viking Archetype allows exactly what you describe (Beast Totem + Fighter). For reference.So as I thought another comparison of class features with feats. Viking archetype, loses weapon training, armor training, and gains rage. Basically it's cross-breed between barbarian and fighter, and this is distinctive ARCHETYPE, not some feat that every fighter can have.Given that my other two points actually address the complaint you made, and this one was more of an amusing aside, I'm very interested in the fact that you only responded to this one.
Indeed, given that cherry picking what to respond to seems to be a pattern with you (which is why I'm responding after all this time) I don't think debate with you is gonna be productive, and will not be engaging in it any more. I advise others to do the same.
Current group has a two-weapon fighting sword & board Viking. Picking up Unhindered Shield is literally only a single feat alteration to his build.
The benefit: he get us use a much better weapon in his off hand.
People are aware that this feat becomes worthless the moment you can afford an Animated Shield, correct?
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If people are this worried about the feat, just forbid it from being used with 2-handed weapons. Or ban it in your game...
Don't try to get it nerfed/ruined for everyone else.
It gives the AC bonus while raging. at the first level you can get it, it does NOT offset the rage penalty. At later levels if you pick up reckless abandon, it PRECISELY offsets the rage penalty for that rage power.
IF you aren't raging, you don't have the power. It has its good and poor points. Its main effect is to make up for lower base AC and the rage penalty.
And yes, it stacks with unhindered shield.
And its one Rage Power to start with +1 AC and take a gawdawful long time to get to the max of +6, and even then you only go positive after 8th level. If you have Reckless Abandon, the next benefit...is 0!
Its also considered one of the best and most appropriate rage talents to take, esp since its on the Pounce tree. I find it most interesting you didn't use something like Great Climber as a counter example for powerful rage feats, mmm?
Lastly, the only classes that get it are classes that Rage. There's another feat that gets you an Improved Natural Armor bonus, too. It grants +1 Nat Ac. I notice you didn't cite THAT feat.
Expanded Arcana gives you the ability to cast a 9th level spell you could not previously. It did not ask for a 'spell like ability' which is basically what you are trying to redefine it as. Granting a 'spell' means you have to have a caster level to make use of the spell.
and I bet a lot of people haven't seen it used. After all, your sorcs and oracles don't get 8-9th level spells until after 95% of campaigns are already dust.
Lower level spells don't get taken because you might as well Spell Page for the ones you really want.
But you do see sorcs and oracles using the human FCB for more spells all the time, right? Same bloody thing. When it is massively cheap, it is taken.
I don't know about your definition of broken. 'Completely obviates the need for Sword and Board fighting style' sounds pretty broken to me.
SAB is a specific style that emphasized AC over attack. You had to make massive investment in TWF to even come close to being on par damage with other styles with such a crappy weapon, as I noted in my previous post.
But you got the AC, they didn't, that made it worth it.
The other shield bonuses received from feats or class abilities are small, scale slow, mature late, and to a much lesser degree then this one. There is no comparison. This feat starts off better then ALL of them, matures faster, and ends higher.
Oh, and gives you free use of the shield slot you couldn't use before. ANd access to all those shield defensive feats and enhancements you couldn't use before.
There is NO comparison in speed, maturity, power or versatility.
==Aelryinth
If people are this worried about the feat, just forbid it from being used with 2-handed weapons. Or ban it in your game...
Don't try to get it nerfed/ruined for everyone else.
I personally don't want to see it available in PFS. It's my opinion - broken feats should be banned from PFS. I really hope that this thread will get an attention from decision-makers in PFS.
People are aware that this feat becomes worthless the moment you can afford an Animated Shield, correct?
Please read carefully what Animated shield property does exactly in PF.
People are aware that this feat becomes worthless the moment you can afford an Animated Shield, correct?
Animated shields eat up an action and +2 enhancement bonus. of the two, the move action cost is equals a round not attacking. If combat lasts more than 4 rounds, the cost to action economy increases.
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Thing is, not every build would care to throw the 2-3 feats needed to get this to start up and the gold to get it really good, maybe at levels 15+ if they have run out of other choices. I don't believe everyone that can will, unlike divine protection. This is a nice way to boost AC if you're looking to get it higher. But I don't think it's mandatory for all classes to now take this feat or suffer being outclassed.
And actually, the Viking Archetype allows exactly what you describe (Beast Totem + Fighter). For reference.So as I thought another comparison of class features with feats. Viking archetype, loses weapon training, armor training, and gains rage. Basically it's cross-breed between barbarian and fighter, and this is distinctive ARCHETYPE, not some feat that every fighter can have.Given that my other two points actually address the complaint you made, and this one was more of an amusing aside, I'm very interested in the fact that you only responded to this one.
Indeed, given that cherry picking what to respond to seems to be a pattern with you (which is why I'm responding after all this time) I don't think debate with you is gonna be productive, and will not be engaging in it any more. I advise others to do the same.
Current group has a two-weapon fighting sword & board Viking. Picking up Unhindered Shield is literally only a single feat alteration to his build.
The benefit: he get us use a much better weapon in his off hand.
I'm assuming he's going to get rid of Imp Shield Bash and Shield Master, pick up Shield Focus and Unhindered.
So, he's got all the AC, and all the attack power, full convergence with class ability...yeah, he's done nothing but go up in power. No more needing to shield bash!
(Less important to Vikings who Rage and don't use WM, unless he's using Weapon Spec)
==Aelryinth
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If people are this worried about the feat, just forbid it from being used with 2-handed weapons. Or ban it in your game...
Don't try to get it nerfed/ruined for everyone else.
Why does this logic only apply one way?
I'm not going to try to barge into your house and force you to ban it in your home game.
And actually, the Viking Archetype allows exactly what you describe (Beast Totem + Fighter). For reference.So as I thought another comparison of class features with feats. Viking archetype, loses weapon training, armor training, and gains rage. Basically it's cross-breed between barbarian and fighter, and this is distinctive ARCHETYPE, not some feat that every fighter can have.Given that my other two points actually address the complaint you made, and this one was more of an amusing aside, I'm very interested in the fact that you only responded to this one.
Indeed, given that cherry picking what to respond to seems to be a pattern with you (which is why I'm responding after all this time) I don't think debate with you is gonna be productive, and will not be engaging in it any more. I advise others to do the same.
Current group has a two-weapon fighting sword & board Viking. Picking up Unhindered Shield is literally only a single feat alteration to his build.
The benefit: he get us use a much better weapon in his off hand.
I'm assuming he's going to get rid of Imp Shield Bash and Shield Master, pick up Shield Focus and Unhindered.
So, he's got all the AC, and all the attack power, full convergence with class ability...yeah, he's done nothing but go up in power. No more needing to shield bash!
(Less important to Vikings who Rage and don't use WM, unless he's using Weapon Spec)==Aelryinth
Nah, he'll still want the option to bash opponents into the wizards pits/Stinking Cloud/walls.
He already had Shield Focus.