I'm about to start a up Hell's Rebels tomorrow, my first experience with Pathfinder and my first significant experience as GM. I've got a group of six players excited about running the AP. Since two of them are completely new to roleplaying, we started with a quick intro session before diving into the AP and I discovered there's a problem with our barbarian... she's way too powerful.
Her setup is legitimate.
19 STR (17 + 2 from half-orc racial)
Power attack feat
Wielding a greataxe (1d12)
Once you add up all the bonuses from the two-handed greataxe, rage, and power attack, she's making attacks at +6 with a damage of 1d12 + 12. That's enough damage to one-shot every single enemy until they reach the Wasp Nest with an attack high enough to ensure it happens regularly!
Since everything's legit, I don't want to tell the player he has to nerf her. But that leaves me trying to figure out how to keep her from single-handedly destroying every single encounter until the enemies can catch up. I've thought about just adding HP to everything, but that seems unfair to the rest of the group who are doing 3-8 dmg per attack. Has anyone else come up with any solutions (especially in Hell's Rebels) to a problem like this?
How many points did you allow them on the build?
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Barbarian's are good at damage. It's their thing, or, at least one of their few things. I don't know why you'd want to stop them from being good at their thing. Any fighter/Slayer/Ranger/Rogue/Wizard with 18 strength and a 2 handed weapon should be one shotting enemies at this point. It's just the nature of the 2 handed fighting style and high strength. Things will even out in a few levels when other classes start getting good at their things as well.
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I have a similar character in Skull and Shackles (although worse since he is a Duergar and can enlarge and turn invisible). My only real hope is that later in the path big time hitters like barbarians are going to become less and less effective.
One thing you can be relative happy about is that it will be extremely easy to hit her character. The chance of a massive crit knocking her out or even killing her are pretty good.
Second, I'm not sure what your point buy is for the game but with a strength like that it's very possible that she severely tanked one of her stats. I'm guessing it was Charisma?
If so, then you might want to throw in a caster or two who can cast charm person. Getting that heavy hitter on your side (or at least 'defending' her new friend) will be a huge wake up call for the group and the first time she hits one of them the view of the character of a one-way ticket through encounters will be severely altered. I nearly TPK'd my group when a charm person got through on mine in a minor encounter.
I think you are going to be alright. Her barbarian looks pretty standard and it's a DM's lot in life to cringe our way through greataxe crits and one shots.
To help with your six player group I would definitely err on the side of adding more mooks over higher hp. Barricading the barbarian with things to hit will give your other players more time to shine. Maybe you could make up for the loot disparity by giving your more powerful villains better armor to fend her off.
Hope that's helpful.
Also, damage is not the only consideration regarding power. Not even close. If a 1st level PC busted his/her allotment on strength, then said PC will lack in many other areas. That's why there are saving throws, ability checks, skills, etc. With 6 players, even considering that some are noobs, you will need to adjust the fights for action economy, as well as tinker with various DCs (with 6, the odds of 1 of them having a high bonus are increased).
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Thanks for the help!
I forgot to mention that, for simplicity's sake, I had everyone roll their stats instead of buying. I expected (and explained to everyone) that I'd step in and even out any outlying point spreads, but otherwise I let them take what they rolled. Turns out every one of them rolled phenomenal scores (the barbarian's 9 INT is the only attribute in the group under 10), so I figured I'd go with it and have a nice, powerful group. The problem is that the barbarian is showing that power a lot more than anyone else. At least in combat, of course.
If you guys say it's normal for a barbarian to be slaughtering so proficiently in the beginning, then I suppose I can be content with her doing so. I just want to make sure the other five don't get annoyed with it. Pretty much everyone commented about it after the intro session. No one was upset... but I'd like to keep it that way through future sessions. Rkotitan's suggestion of adding a few more targets sounds good, though I also want to make sure the encounters don't drag on with too many turns to take. I was already planning to adjust the AP for the number of players, but I'll try adding in a little extra fodder and we'll see how it goes. :)
Remember the Barbarian can only kill one thing at a time. The Barbarian can, really, only EVER kill one thing at a time.
Many, even most combats should involve more than one enemy. One enemy per PC, usually, even if some of them are trash mooks used to keep the boss from being RAGEAXEPOUNCED in the first round.
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With 6 players - you should probably add a few more foes anyway. The APs are really balanced against 4 characters who aren't very optimized. Adding HP to foes is generally a bad idea - as in the long-term it hurts martials but doesn't much effect casters with save vs suck spells - making them even more powerful relatively speaking than they already are.
And 1st level is pretty much the beefy martial's time to shine. Though +6 attacks aren't anywhere close to a guaranteed hit - they were rolling well if they never missed.
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The APs are designed for 4 players with 15-point builds. Rolling with only 1 stat below 10 among 6 players requires a minimum of 50% encounter CR increase, maybe even more. Every DC should probably be increased by 1 or 2, every trap CR increased by at least 1 or 2.
Oh, and the first time the barbarian gets charmed, dominated, frightened, or similar, with that awesome will save... you'll stop worrying. :)
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I'd be pretty wary of that 50% CR increase. A bunch of level 3s fighting an Epic fight against a CR 9 creature is gonna be game over pretty soon. Even with 6 of them.
In general a 6 person table is 1 APL higher than a 4 person table. And good stats are, at best, worth an extra 1 APL higher. Unless their stats are raising their hit points by 10, AC and attack by 1-2, their saves by 1, and damage by 3, they're not keeping up with the CR increase.
I would say a 1-2 CR increase is what's best, and always try to boost the mooks more than the BBEG. Increasing the BBEG can sometimes put them in the unhittable/unsurvivable range. Especially if using the advanced template for everything (that +4 AC can be harsh on already high AC monsters).
Two things. First, swarm tactics work nicely against high-strength characters - sure, the Barbarian will take out one foe a round, possibly two if with Cleave. But just toss a couple extra mooks in the game, have them go after the Barbarian, and not only will the character feel like "this is awesome, I'm able to wipe these guys out!" but the rest of the group will get to have targets as well.
Second: I have a system of compensating for high stats.
For instance, did you know a 25-point build is the equivalence of adding +1 to each stat of a 15-point build? So if your average party points is 25, you could add +1 to each stat of all the monsters and foes and balance the stats.
A 37-point build is the equivalence of +2 to each stat.
A 52-(I think)-point build would be +3 to each stat.
And yes, I regularly use Hero Labs to modify stats in my Skype game (which has rolled stats). With the Tabletop group which recently started, I just gave them 25-point builds, but they're somewhat newer (especially with one player who has only played a half dozen Pathfinder games up 'til now) so I figure the stats will help.
One last thing to consider is this: add a couple mooks to each Boss Encounter. Having a single Big Bad vs. a party of four is problematic enough due to Action Economy (four players have far more actions than one Big Bad). Add in two more players and it's far worse. So you increase the number of Mooks to fill the void.
I'd be pretty wary of that 50% CR increase. A bunch of level 3s fighting an Epic fight against a CR 9 creature is gonna be game over pretty soon. Even with 6 of them.
I meant that as 50% XP increase.
Edit: particularly with 6 players and high stats. With 5 players and high stats, I've had to back it down significantly.
Interesting point on the stats, Tangent101.
For the record, I've never understood how +1 HD is the same CR increase as the advanced template (for most critters, advanced is much more significant).
I also find leveling baddies that have class abilities (spells, etc.) problematic since it can, as noted, result in capabilities the party cannot counter easily (if at all). Besides, doing so takes a lot more work figuring out tactics, where to put extra skills, new feats, etc.
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Barbarians are pretty vulnerable. Their armor class is never going to be great, and while they tend to have a lot of hit points compared to other characters, their main defense is to take their opponents down quickly.
I think their biggest vulnerability is when their rage ends. They lose their extra hit points (which can just flat-out kill a vanilla barbarian, Unchained fixes that glitch by making the extras "temporary hit points" but it can still be brutal), and leaving them fatigued.
A smart opponent will exploit this by sending in the mooks first. The barbarian rages, splatters some unsuspecting underling with a greataxe crit, flexes for his friends, then pauses to catch his breath. That's when you send in the real threat.
Don't do that too often, but it's totally fair to have smart villains fight smart.
I forgot to mention that, for simplicity's sake, I had everyone roll their stats instead of buying.
Turns out every one of them rolled phenomenal scores (the barbarian's 9 INT is the only attribute in the group under 10)
Funny that such an approach doesn't lead to a "simple" outcome, when the APs are designed around 15 pt buy, and you would be forced to re-build all NPCs to compensate for all PCs "inexplicably" having phenomenal scores. If you're interested in "simplicity", and you chose to play a published AP in the first place rather than design encounters from scratch... The simplest option is just actually following the guidelines for the AP and using 15 pt buy... ESPECIALLY if you have more players than the norm (6 vs. 4) having 15 pt buy PCs will minimize the adjustments you will need (which you will still need just from having more PCs, but at least then relatively simple adjustments like increasing numbers of mooks will suffice).
Your take on Barbarian one-shotting NPCs at low level is really just how 2Handed melee is at low level, but PCs built well above point buy stats will have repurcussions well later in the game, and in many more areas. If you ALSO have more players than the standard assumption, you really should dial back the PC stats in order the restrict the amount of deviation from the assumptions the AP encounters are built around.
It's true barbarians and to a lesser extent other martials with 2 handed weapons are one hit one kill wonders at low levels. BUT unlike other martials at low levels Barbarians are squishier than other martials necause of low AC and not being able to gain DR (yet). So, shile the barbarian is really powerful 1 vs 1 he's not so powerful if the opposition can answer back in kind. Instead of increasing the DR by building powerful encounters with just a couple of powerful enemies consider increasing the number of mooks, possibly armed with polearms and/or 2 handed weapons. The barb will slaughter SOME of them but unless the party can work togheter the barb will also be the firt one to fall.
P.S.
As a matter of opinion I think HR to be well suited for well rounded characters. There's often more emphasis on social interactions than outright combat. Also note how AP are ballanced around 20 points buy not 15, that's an urban myth, but allowing people to roll their stats is always risky.
I'm about to start a up Hell's Rebels tomorrow, my first experience with Pathfinder and my first significant experience as GM. I've got a group of six players excited about running the AP. Since two of them are completely new to roleplaying, we started with a quick intro session before diving into the AP and I discovered there's a problem with our barbarian... she's way too powerful.
Her setup is legitimate.
19 STR (17 + 2 from half-orc racial)
Power attack feat
Wielding a greataxe (1d12)Once you add up all the bonuses from the two-handed greataxe, rage, and power attack, she's making attacks at +6 with a damage of 1d12 + 12. That's enough damage to one-shot every single enemy until they reach the Wasp Nest with an attack high enough to ensure it happens regularly!
Since everything's legit, I don't want to tell the player he has to nerf her. But that leaves me trying to figure out how to keep her from single-handedly destroying every single encounter until the enemies can catch up. I've thought about just adding HP to everything, but that seems unfair to the rest of the group who are doing 3-8 dmg per attack. Has anyone else come up with any solutions (especially in Hell's Rebels) to a problem like this?
At low levels most martials built for damage can one shot low level enemies. <---That is normally the standard.
As an example.
level 1 +1 to attack
2d6(weapon) falchion 18-20 crit range
18 strength +6 damage +4 to attack
power attack -1 to attack +3 to damage.
power attack equals +4 to attack and 2d6+7= 14 points of damage= CR 1 monsters are dead= a boss with 35 hit points dies in 2 rounds by the time you add in the party's damage.
What is everyone else playing?
You can add more enemies so they have someone to fight if everyone is has a martial character.
PS: I understand your player's build does more damage than my example, but the enemies will still die, and he can take down some CR 2 monsters if he gets to them first.
Remember the Barbarian can only kill one thing at a time. The Barbarian can, really, only EVER kill one thing at a time.
Many, even most combats should involve more than one enemy. One enemy per PC, usually, even if some of them are trash mooks used to keep the boss from being RAGEAXEPOUNCED in the first round.
Cleave begs to differ...
I don't think you have a problem. Just lack of experience in know what a char can do. Most all Barb's will be in the same boat as the one you describe. But like others have said so would most martals who go the 2 handed root.
I have made a paladin. A Dwarf with a dwarven war axe and i was killing most things with one hit. Sure i can clear out low level mobs. But higher level mobs takes me 2 to 3 hits so it even outs once you get to higher levels. Plus remember shes going to take hits and drop. Now my paladin has good ac the barb wont. So by adding more mobs you can make it more fun for the rest of the party because they have mobs to kill. Once the barb drops or is killed a few times she will start to think about ways to get into battle where she isnt always getting pounded on.
Barbarians can get decent AC if the player knows what he is doing, but it is not common.
Also note how AP are ballanced around 20 points buy not 15, that's an urban myth, but allowing people to roll their stats is always risky.
You are incorrect. Simply do a search on the message boards.
Here's one specifically from James Jacobs, until recently, the AP creative director (I'd link to his post, but I don't know how):By assuming that a group consists of four 15-point characters played by players with average skills, we can achieve a baseline that remains the same for each AP and thus makes it easier for each GM to adapt.
The reasoning for 20-point builds is for pathfinder Society games. The assumption is that you have four strangers playing together for an adventure but who don't team up for each game. Thus you don't get as much tactical play or players who know each others' strengths and weaknesses.
If you have a regular group, you often learn who is weak and how and compensate for it. Thus the extra 5 points aren't needed except for newer players. Of course, a lot of people like the higher stats (it's a holdover perhaps from AD&D where anything below a 15 was a waste of time, and often you needed a 17 or better to have actually decent bonuses). And AD&D also had 3d6 per stat. So you could have some truly horrifically sad rolls and characters who would easily be beaten up by a pathfinder Commoner. ;)
My thought is allow a 25-point build and then compensate with monsters getting +1 to each stat to compensate. (25-point builds can be emulated with pre-assigned stats of 16, 15, 14, 13, 11, 9, which means it's quite likely you could get one 18 after racial modifiers.)
Unless you're like me, and you make a dwarven oracle. :-)
I really like the scale idea, Tangent101. Like, that's cake to implement and doesn't really cost much in terms of effort. That way, when my Saturday group only has 5, all I'll really need to do is drop a Mook and maybe add a few HP to balance (I default to a 6 player write-up).
Hehe, Dwarven oracle.
If you are willing to take a little time to prepare ahead of time, it's not too difficult scaling an encounter for five or six characters.
What you do is you take the experience points for the encounter (the total XP value of each monster), and divide by four. That is the amount of XPs you have available for each additional player beyond the fourth.
Thus say you're dealing with an early goblin encounter of three goblins, a goblin champion, and a goblin dog. That's 1,005 XPs in all, or just over 251 XPs per PC. With a group of two, you could add another 500 XPs... which could be handled with a goblin warchanter (200) and two additional goblin warriors (270), and letting the last 30 XPs slide.
This works also for larger encounters. Say you've an Ogre fighter and 4 Ogres. That's 8,000 XPs, or 2,000 XP per player. With an extra 4,000 XPs available you could toss in a lieutenant ogre who's only 4th level and one additional ogre.
Not only does it keep the XPs per encounter the same for the number of characters, but it also keeps up the challenge of the encounter.
BTW, this can also be done in reverse. Say you only have three players. That initial goblin encounter could be replicated by dropping either two goblins (being 20 XP in the hole) or drop the goblin dog and add in a fourth goblin (and being slightly over). With the ogres, dropping the ogre fighter to 4th level and eliminating one ogre eliminates 2,000 XPs of that encounter, and makes it suitable for a party of three.
So it's just Strength 19 with Power Attack and a greataxe?
That's kind of bog standard for a barbarian. Yup, every standard action, she'll knock the heck out of something. That's what a barbarian does. Since barbarians are a core class, every adventure is written to handle the presence of such a character.
Let her be awesome at hitting things. There's nothing wrong it it. It's what she signed up for, after all.
Cleave begs to differ...Remember the Barbarian can only kill one thing at a time. The Barbarian can, really, only EVER kill one thing at a time.
Many, even most combats should involve more than one enemy. One enemy per PC, usually, even if some of them are trash mooks used to keep the boss from being RAGEAXEPOUNCED in the first round.
You are correct. A 1st level Human Barbarian will be able to kill a grand total of two adjacent enemies.
And at level 2, they lose that capability against equal CR foes, and never regain it.
I forgot to mention that, for simplicity's sake, I had everyone roll their stats instead of buying. I expected (and explained to everyone) that I'd step in and even out any outlying point spreads, but otherwise I let them take what they rolled. Turns out every one of them rolled phenomenal scores (the barbarian's 9 INT is the only attribute in the group under 10), so I figured I'd go with it and have a nice, powerful group.
I did this with our Rise of the Runelords group (which is soon to finish that AP) and I've regretted it deeply (and we are four players, not six).
I have had to tinker and fiddle all encounters to make them challenging and fun, and for what? Nothing. If the PC's had had lower (point buy) stats, the player's would had been just as happy, and I as a DM could have concentrated on other things than how to constantly beef the campaign up; adding Advanced templates, changing HP, AC, DCs, saves and so on. And not erring on the side of making it too difficult, either.
Balancing is not always easy (and, for me, boring - I'm a story-type of DM more than a stat tinkerer), and I should have left that in the AP writers' capable hands. But I learned from my mistake. 5 point buys in the next AP to balance the universe ;)