| Friend of the Dork |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hello, I play a Witch. I know a lot here things it's an OP class that can take down enemies left and right faster than anyone, but my experience has been the opposite lately.
Sure, around 10th level it was easy to Sleep giants and other brutes with low saves, but now at 15-16th level the enemies generally have either immunity to mind affecting or just very high will saves.
My current save DC for hexes is 25 - after trying to affect a creature with the Misfortune Hex, I realized that the DC was way too low.
What I did: Evil Eye hex (target was immune)
Quickened Ill Omen spell (worked, despite high SR)
Misfortune Hex: DM rolled low on a die, getting "only" 34 on the save.
Now that's just one encounter, but I notice that most of the time I am unable to affect creatures we encounter except for secondary effects, and I just have to assume they will save. This makes playing a witch becomes just the same routine: Quickened Haste for the group, use Evil eye to debuff, and cackle. Cleanse and repeat. It surely helps the party (unless the enemy is undead or otherwise immune to evil eye), but it also means that 80% of my abilities are unused.
Ok, that was a bit longer than intended. So back to the original question: How can I boost the will save for my hexes, and maybe spells?
- Ability focus is banned, as it is a monster only feat.
- Headband of Int is capped out.
- Inherent bonus to Int is way too expensive - I might get some, but so far nothing has been found either in loot or for sale.
Spell focus: These require two feats, and unfortunately don't work for Hexes, which are more useful.
So it seems to me there little I can do when the enemies have +25-+30 on will saves. Next level the DC will be 27 due to Int and half level for hexes, but thats as good as it gets. I would need about +5 more to be able to affect monsters about 50% of the time.
In comparison, the melee fighters in the group generally hits with multiple attacks, sometimes even all of them. They only miss on a 2-4 roll against high AC monsters.
| Vaellen |
I played a witch in Kingmaker and I felt your pain. I either shut the encounter down in a couple rounds or I stood around twiddling my thumbs since everything was immune to mind-affecting.
My advice is pick spells or use magic items to round out your hexes. In fights where my hexes didn't work well, I'd buff my party.
I found the witch a rather boring character to play because as you say you pretty much do the same thing every combat.
Also, if the DM is getting a 34 on a low roll he is screwing you over. I hope that's a boss encounter. Those saves are way too high otherwise, nobody is going to beat those very often unless you are mythic.
| wraithstrike |
Per the rules Ability Focus is not banned unless your GM houseruled it into being banned. PC's by the rules can take monster feats that they qualify for, but normally they do not qualify.
With that aside what level are you playing at?
Even CR 20 monsters tend to have around a 24 on their high saves. It seems like the GM has inflated the DC to shut down your "save or end the fight" capabilities.
Also if you have a varied spell selection you should still be useful, even if you can't just end the fight, or shutdown opponents with one spell or SU.
| Friend of the Dork |
I played a witch in Kingmaker and I felt your pain. I either shut the encounter down in a couple rounds or I stood around twiddling my thumbs since everything was immune to mind-affecting.
My advice is pick spells or use magic items to round out your hexes. In fights where my hexes didn't work well, I'd buff my party.
I found the witch a rather boring character to play because as you say you pretty much do the same thing every combat.
Also, if the DM is getting a 34 on a low roll he is screwing you over. I hope that's a boss encounter. Those saves are way too high otherwise, nobody is going to beat those very often unless you are mythic.
Yep, I do buff my party, but other than Heroism, False Life and Haste, I don't have that many buffs. Clerics and druids are better support characters IMO. My job I thought was to debuff the enemy, so that the group can take them out more easily. And debuffing is fun, if I can get the spells and hexes to work.
My example is a sort of boss encounter, where a single monster attacks the whole party. I don't mind that it has a good save, I just think it is a bit too good.
The main problem is that the DM was scared and wanted to nerf the witch on low-mid level, and now the party melee goons are so good at what they do that the DM has to run monsters of CR 2-3 levels higher than the party level constantly to challenge these. It makes sense, as if the party can flank and full attack they do 300-400 damage in a very quick time, yet it also means the Saves of these monsters are much higher than intended. Of course, me complaining is viewed as "whining" so the only thing I can do is to improve my character or stop playing.
PS this is RotRL campaign.
| wraithstrike |
What level is your witch and what is your current intelligence score?
I am still 99% sure that he is buffing saves so you don't end combat.
Witches are difficult for single monster boss fights. They GM would be better off using a boss with minions than to use a single monster of a higher CR.
Once I get your witch level I can suggest some spells that you might wnat to try.
PS: I ran RotRL, and yes I will avoid spoilers, and give general tactical advice. <thumbs up>
| Orfamay Quest |
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Sure, around 10th level it was easy to Sleep giants and other brutes with low saves, but now at 15-16th level the enemies generally have either immunity to mind affecting or just very high will saves.
There are guidelines for monster stats by CR, and while they're not gospel, Paizo's published works tend to follow them.
At CR 16, monsters tend to have "good" saves in the 19 range and "poor" saves in the 14 range. At CR 19, the numbers are 21 and 16, respectively. CR 20 have 22 and 17.
If your monsters really are rocking a Will save of 25-30, then your GM is definitely buffing them. Given that Kingmaker was written before the Witch class and (over)relies on single-opponent fights, I can understand why your GM is doing it. But I can also understand your frustration.
I would not, however, advise trying to find more rules-cheese to raise your save DC. If he's already willing to buff everything routinely by 8 points of Will save, nothing will stop him buffing everything by ten or twelve points instead. I'd say you should talk to him, possibly showing him this thread, and explain that you're concerned that he's making you're character not-fun.
And, of course, I'd also advise finding new and interesting things to do to expand your character's abilities beyond simply casting Hex spells and buffs. Summon monster spells, for example, are very effective at this level, enable you to participate in combat in a non save-or-suck way, and may also be able to help you support your melee buddies. Simply spamming ray of exhaustion can also be very effective -- it inflicts a no-save fatigued condition and the second spell boosts this to a no-save exhausted. I'm also very fond of enervation for single enemies and of cloudkill for groups.
| Darksol the Painbringer |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It depends on the type of creature.
A lot of Outsiders and Dragons and stuff will have some pretty strong Will Save progressions, as well as a fairly high Wisdom, especially if they cast Divine Spells or SLAs.
For example, a Balor (CR 20, which at your level would constitute a BBEG) has a base +25 Will Save, and that's only its average save (the Reflex for it is damn poor though). If the GM is giving it Headbands of Wisdom, the benefits of Inherent Tomes, the +1 attribute per 4 levels, you can definitely see such a creature hitting the 30's, easily.
The problem is at the higher levels, you're going to run into crazy stuff like Demons, Dragons, etc. And they're going to have good Will Saves. Previously, such creatures were rare, and/or nowhere near as powerful/scaling with their base statistics, so you certainly were more relevant because the irrelevance factors played such a little part.
Also consider that, unless you have the same statistic scaling as the creatures, you're going to be behind no matter what unless you're targeting the saving throws they're weak at.
Let's take my level 20 Peri-Blooded Aasimar Blood Arcanist blaster as an example of a caster, who starts with a 22 Intelligence (thanks to Aasimar racial alternatives), has a +6 Headband, a +5 Tome, and all 5 level attributes gone to Intelligence. At best, I'm looking at 38 Intelligence (which I'm not complaining), and I'm going to be throwing around Fireballs and/or Delayed Blast Fireballs against my enemies, using the Admixture benefits thanks to School Understanding to transmute the spell type into something that has little to no resistance.
This gives a +14 Intelligence modifier to my saving throws, I'll be pitching Level 3 (or Level 7) spells, plus Spell Focus, which is doubled via Spell Perfection, and my +2 DC benefit via my Arcane Reservoir. That equates to 10 + 14 + 3/7 + 2 (SF) + 2 (AR) = DC 31/35 Reflex Saves. A Balor with a +17 Reflex Save needs a 14 or higher for a basic Fireball, or an 18 or higher for my Delayed Blast Fireball.
Taking this example to a more BBEG CR equivalent, the Hekatonkheires Titan (CR 24) has a mere +12 Reflex Save (significantly less than a Balor), meaning that my base Fireball requires a 19 or higher, and my Delayed Blast Fireballs require a Natural 20. He has SR 35, which is tough, but at my level, with +2/+6 CL on those spells, and an extra +8 (via Spell Perfection and Greater Spell Penetration feats), I'll have a +30/34 to my check, meaning if I roll a 4 or less on my Fireball, it does nothing, and if I roll a 1 on my Delayed Blast Fireball, it does nothing. The odds in both of those scenarios are in my favor, the Titan even moreso.
Now, let's say I used something with a Will Saving throw, using the same DCs. That puts me at a major disadvantage against the Balor, because compared to his Reflex Saves, that basically gives him a +8 to the saving throw roll. Now, instead of a 14 or 18, he only needs a 6 or a 10, respectively, to beat the saving throws. The circumstances are similar with the Titan, as he receives a +6 to the saving throw roll, meaning he only needs a 13 or 17. And chances are, there are probably no "half-effects" even if he makes it (whereas with my blasting, it's still half damage unless they possess Evasion, which is unlikely), meaning Save/Suck spells targeting Will Saves generally are significantly less effective than ones that target Reflex Saves.
| wraithstrike |
Friend of the Dork wrote:
Sure, around 10th level it was easy to Sleep giants and other brutes with low saves, but now at 15-16th level the enemies generally have either immunity to mind affecting or just very high will saves.There are guidelines for monster stats by CR, and while they're not gospel, Paizo's published works tend to follow them.
At CR 16, monsters tend to have "good" saves in the 19 range and "poor" saves in the 14 range. At CR 19, the numbers are 21 and 16, respectively. CR 20 have 22 and 17.
If your monsters really are rocking a Will save of 25-30, then your GM is definitely buffing them. Given that Kingmaker was written before the Witch class and (over)relies on single-opponent fights, I can understand why your GM is doing it. But I can also understand your frustration.
I would not, however, advise trying to find more rules-cheese to raise your save DC. If he's already willing to buff everything routinely by 8 points of Will save, nothing will stop him buffing everything by ten or twelve points instead. I'd say you should talk to him, possibly showing him this thread, and explain that you're concerned that he's making you're character not-fun.
And, of course, I'd also advise finding new and interesting things to do to expand your character's abilities beyond simply casting Hex spells and buffs. Summon monster spells, for example, are very effective at this level, enable you to participate in combat in a non save-or-suck way, and may also be able to help you support your melee buddies. Simply spamming ray of exhaustion can also be very effective -- it inflicts a no-save fatigued condition and the second spell boosts this to a no-save exhausted. I'm also very fond of enervation for single enemies and of cloudkill for groups.
Pretty much this. You will never win an arms race with the GM.
| Friend of the Dork |
Ah, I could use a multiquote function now:
@wraithstrike:
My witch was level 15, now just becoming level 16. I haven't picked all 8th level spells yet, but I have used Prediction of Failure somewhat successfully as it works even on a successful save.
Ill Omen (1st level) is also excellent as it has no save, but only 3 dire rolls is not good enough when a monster has 3-5 attacks per round, plus attacks of opportunity, I mainly use it to make my hexes have a better chance of succeeding.
Monster saves: I don't know their exact save, I can only give my impression. The DM has told me he often rolls high on save, and I don't think he generally fudges these.
I'm assuming few saves are very much higher than 20-22, even for solos. That still means my old save DC 25 is a very easy roll, and my only chance of making it work is to combine Evil Eye and Ill Omen.
Save or die/out: I generally don't use these, as I prefer to debuff the enemy and Sleep Hex often fails due to immunity to sleep. I have used it successfully vs humanoid and giant enemies with low saves.
My witch: Patron is Time, mainly for Haste and the future Time Stop.
Offensive hexes:
Evil Eye
Slumber
Misfortune
Scar
Cackle
Ice Tomb
Prehensile hair
I often use the Healing hexes too.
Offensive spells: In addition to those already mentioned, I often use Greater Dispel, Waves of Exhaustion, Feeblemind and Frostbite.
@Orfamay Quest
I do use some of these already, but Enervation is a good suggestion that I should try to use more often. Summon Monster VIII might be a good pick now, as the monster have very useful abilities and spells. In combat however, they are fairly incompetent at hitting and dealing damage, and we have a druid that summons a lot of elementals.
@Darksol the Painbringer
I'm pretty sure starting with 22 in any attribute would be banned at this table, even starting with 20 is very rare and requires neglecting otherwise useful stats. A +5 inherent tome costs 137k alone, which would be entire budget for magical items the last 4-5 levels at least. A +2 is affordable, but it is also fairly wasteful as afaik you would have to buy and read a better book to increase it.
For your monsters, my DM is probably thinking like you, giving them buff items and such. To a certain agree it is good and expected (the Bestiary entries are woefully inadequate for this), but if taken too far it makes it impossible to affect them. Ok, against a Balor BBEG I would be ok with not expecting it to fail a will save, but I would hope he would fail on something other than a natural one. Him needing a 6 or 10 is ok with me, but if he makes it on a 2 it means my actions are in vain.
Arms Race: No I dont expect to win this, but it is there, and for a short time a DM or player is in the "lead". If i don't continously improve, monsters are too hard, if the DM doesen't continuously raise the challenge, encounters gets too easy. The DM can arbitrarily just give a huge boost to a monster, but I don't think he will, I think he generally plays by the rules. He just refuses to discuss issues that comes due to my character being gimped.
I will probably leave the game after the RotRL is done (for several reasons, not just this one), but this is the only time I've played at this level and I want to know the ending of the tale.
| Darksol the Painbringer |
It is merely an example. I'll go ahead and state that most every table would find a 22 Intelligence starting out almost unheard of in a normal game (though with that race, 20 point buy, and sacrificing the SLA for an extra +2 Intelligence via the Variant Aasimar Abilities, it is certainly possible), and that if an Intelligence-based Caster could pull it off, they would definitely do it.
Even so, that's just 1 Intelligence modifier off from what could otherwise occur in regards to DCs, so it's certainly not unreasonable to hit very close to those numbers that I mentioned.
Again, targeting the proper saving throws is the biggest key to making sure that effects stick to the bad guys. Sometimes you might have to resort to just blasting the peons that the BBEG throws at you; you'd still be contributing, by keeping the peons off of the key party members doing their job of slaying the BBEG.
| Friend of the Dork |
It is merely an example. I'll go ahead and state that most every table would find a 22 Intelligence starting out almost unheard of in a normal game (though with that race, 20 point buy, and sacrificing the SLA for an extra +2 Intelligence via the Variant Aasimar Abilities, it is certainly possible), and that if an Intelligence-based Caster could pull it off, they would definitely do it.
Even so, that's just 1 Intelligence modifier off from what could otherwise occur in regards to DCs, so it's certainly not unreasonable to hit very close to those numbers that I mentioned.
Again, targeting the proper saving throws is the biggest key to making sure that effects stick to the bad guys. Sometimes you might have to resort to just blasting the peons that the BBEG throws at you; you'd still be contributing, by keeping the peons off of the key party members doing their job of slaying the BBEG.
I try to target the correct saves, but it is tricky as almost every monster is custom to the module, and the DM is not very forthcoming on the information even when I succeed rather high Knowledge checks. He probably considers save modifers as metagame knowledge.
Also, I have few useful powers or spells that target reflex saves, mostly just AoE damage, which is almost useless compared to melee damage.
| Claxon |
Friend of the Dork wrote:
Sure, around 10th level it was easy to Sleep giants and other brutes with low saves, but now at 15-16th level the enemies generally have either immunity to mind affecting or just very high will saves.There are guidelines for monster stats by CR, and while they're not gospel, Paizo's published works tend to follow them.
At CR 16, monsters tend to have "good" saves in the 19 range and "poor" saves in the 14 range. At CR 19, the numbers are 21 and 16, respectively. CR 20 have 22 and 17.
If your monsters really are rocking a Will save of 25-30, then your GM is definitely buffing them. Given that Kingmaker was written before the Witch class and (over)relies on single-opponent fights, I can understand why your GM is doing it. But I can also understand your frustration.
I would not, however, advise trying to find more rules-cheese to raise your save DC. If he's already willing to buff everything routinely by 8 points of Will save, nothing will stop him buffing everything by ten or twelve points instead. I'd say you should talk to him, possibly showing him this thread, and explain that you're concerned that he's making you're character not-fun.
And, of course, I'd also advise finding new and interesting things to do to expand your character's abilities beyond simply casting Hex spells and buffs. Summon monster spells, for example, are very effective at this level, enable you to participate in combat in a non save-or-suck way, and may also be able to help you support your melee buddies. Simply spamming ray of exhaustion can also be very effective -- it inflicts a no-save fatigued condition and the second spell boosts this to a no-save exhausted. I'm also very fond of enervation for single enemies and of cloudkill for groups.
This times infinity.
As a GM I've simply written into my house rules that I can't abide the Misfortune Hex (and I never run solo encounter so the Slumber Hex is usually action economy trades as the other NPC(s) wake up the sleeping one). I do understand this greatly reduces the strength of a Witch, but I am also upfront about it with my players so that it isn't a surprise to them. Unfortunately, some player abilities are so imbalanced that the only way I can deal with them as a GM is to ban them and let my players know about it before the start of a campaign.
| 'Sani |
Here is an item you may find useful: Corset of Dire Witchcraft
Also the item Hexing Runes adds +1 to one hex, chosen at the start of the day.
| Friend of the Dork |
BlackOuroboros wrote:Here is an item you may find useful: Corset of Dire WitchcraftAlso the item Hexing Runes adds +1 to one hex, chosen at the start of the day.
The witching corset seems fairly useless, as few of my powers rely on caster level (only the healing ones, and they are fairly capped out). Also, I have a robe of archmagi which is superior in general.
Hexing runes seems right on the spot. The problems will be to find someone who can make it, or to find it in the stores - not every item in the books are available.
@Claxon:
Why do you hate the Misfortune Hex? It's simply a debuff, and it can be saved against as easily as anything else. I can understand banning the Slumber hex, which is OP against certain enemies, but Misfortune is quite often the only hex I have to use against certain enemies (undead, golems etc.) which there are many of in the RotRL campaign.
If i wanted to rely on summons, I would play a Summoner or maybe a druid. normal wizard summons are sometimes useful, but for example the level 8 summon creature list is extremely short and mostly has evil creatures. And witches don't have much in utility spells, compared to wizards.
This class was fun when my hexed tend to work, not so fun now.
| wraithstrike |
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:It is merely an example. I'll go ahead and state that most every table would find a 22 Intelligence starting out almost unheard of in a normal game (though with that race, 20 point buy, and sacrificing the SLA for an extra +2 Intelligence via the Variant Aasimar Abilities, it is certainly possible), and that if an Intelligence-based Caster could pull it off, they would definitely do it.
Even so, that's just 1 Intelligence modifier off from what could otherwise occur in regards to DCs, so it's certainly not unreasonable to hit very close to those numbers that I mentioned.
Again, targeting the proper saving throws is the biggest key to making sure that effects stick to the bad guys. Sometimes you might have to resort to just blasting the peons that the BBEG throws at you; you'd still be contributing, by keeping the peons off of the key party members doing their job of slaying the BBEG.
I try to target the correct saves, but it is tricky as almost every monster is custom to the module, and the DM is not very forthcoming on the information even when I succeed rather high Knowledge checks. He probably considers save modifers as metagame knowledge.
Also, I have few useful powers or spells that target reflex saves, mostly just AoE damage, which is almost useless compared to melee damage.
Most monsters have the same good and poor save for their type. That info is in the bestiary, so it should be able to be gained with a knowledge check. So most of the time if you know the creature type you can reasonably figure out the weak save. Their fighting style could also tells you. Big bruiser types tend to have good fort saves.
Also your GM may not be fudging, but those saves(assuming +25 is correct) are not common for the level you are at, but if you he has the modifiers as +5 or more above what they normally would be he might not have to fudge the die roll.
| wraithstrike |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
'Sani wrote:BlackOuroboros wrote:Here is an item you may find useful: Corset of Dire WitchcraftAlso the item Hexing Runes adds +1 to one hex, chosen at the start of the day.The witching corset seems fairly useless, as few of my powers rely on caster level (only the healing ones, and they are fairly capped out). Also, I have a robe of archmagi which is superior in general.
Hexing runes seems right on the spot. The problems will be to find someone who can make it, or to find it in the stores - not every item in the books are available.
@Claxon:
Why do you hate the Misfortune Hex? It's simply a debuff, and it can be saved against as easily as anything else. I can understand banning the Slumber hex, which is OP against certain enemies, but Misfortune is quite often the only hex I have to use against certain enemies (undead, golems etc.) which there are many of in the RotRL campaign.
If i wanted to rely on summons, I would play a Summoner or maybe a druid. normal wizard summons are sometimes useful, but for example the level 8 summon creature list is extremely short and mostly has evil creatures. And witches don't have much in utility spells, compared to wizards.
This class was fun when my hexed tend to work, not so fun now.
The misfortune hex is a powerful ability, and if you have a high DC and the GM's has not jacked up the monster's save it can be terrible for the enemy especially if you couple with another debuff from yourself or another caster. Since it can be extended with cackle it can make things really bad.
Remember it doesn't just affect one roll. It works for every d20 roll as long as it is active. Couple it with Evil Eye and things can get a lot worse.
| 'Sani |
'Sani wrote:BlackOuroboros wrote:Here is an item you may find useful: Corset of Dire WitchcraftAlso the item Hexing Runes adds +1 to one hex, chosen at the start of the day.The witching corset seems fairly useless, as few of my powers rely on caster level (only the healing ones, and they are fairly capped out). Also, I have a robe of archmagi which is superior in general.
Hexing runes seems right on the spot. The problems will be to find someone who can make it, or to find it in the stores - not every item in the books are available.
@Claxon:
Why do you hate the Misfortune Hex? It's simply a debuff, and it can be saved against as easily as anything else. I can understand banning the Slumber hex, which is OP against certain enemies, but Misfortune is quite often the only hex I have to use against certain enemies (undead, golems etc.) which there are many of in the RotRL campaign.
If i wanted to rely on summons, I would play a Summoner or maybe a druid. normal wizard summons are sometimes useful, but for example the level 8 summon creature list is extremely short and mostly has evil creatures. And witches don't have much in utility spells, compared to wizards.
This class was fun when my hexed tend to work, not so fun now.
The Corset of Dire Witchcraft still works because when you use it to enhance the caster level of the hex by 2, it raises the DC of the hex by 1, as the DC of a hex is 10 +1/2 the witch’s level + the witch’s Intelligence modifier. Since the witches level is +2 for that hex with the corset, that means the +1/2 the witches level is 1 number higher.
| Orfamay Quest |
As a GM I've simply written into my house rules that I can't abide the Misfortune Hex (and I never run solo encounter so the Slumber Hex is usually action economy trades as the other NPC(s) wake up the sleeping one). I do understand this greatly reduces the strength of a Witch, but I am also upfront about it with my players so that it isn't a surprise to them. Unfortunately, some player abilities are so imbalanced that the only way I can deal with them as a GM is to ban them and let my players know about it before the start of a campaign.
Well, your campaign is your campaign and all that, but I can't really imagine why Misfortune, in particular, is singled out for such treatment. It's a fairly ordinary save-or-suck spell, neutralized in part by the fact that the witch needs to be in the monster's face to use it, and in part by the fact that the witch needs to spend a move action every round to keep it up, and neutralized in a third part by the fact that it only comes into play if the monster does something requiring a die roll (so, for example, using a typical SLA is unhampered).
I think it's one of the GM-friendlier abilities, frankly, because it essentially takes the witch out of the fight (because of the move action requirement, unless you're changing your blouse every round in a sort of striptease) and it still requires the rest of the party to actually do the work to bring the BBEG down, so the ranger and paladin still feel they got to bring the pain train to the stone giant.
| Orfamay Quest |
The Corset of Dire Witchcraft still works because when you use it to enhance the caster level of the hex by 2, it raises the DC of the hex by 1, as the DC of a hex is 10 +1/2 the witch’s level + the witch’s Intelligence modifier. Since the witches level is +2 for that hex with the corset, that means the +1/2 the witches level is 1 number higher.
It's not clear to me that "caster level" is the same as "witch level." It's therefore not clear that the corset actually adds to save DCs. So be prepared for table variation on this one.
| Claxon |
@Claxon:
Why do you hate the Misfortune Hex? It's simply a debuff, and it can be saved against as easily as anything else. I can understand banning the Slumber hex, which is OP against certain enemies, but Misfortune is quite often the only hex I have to use against certain enemies (undead, golems etc.) which there are many of in the RotRL campaign.
If i wanted to rely on summons, I would play a Summoner or maybe a druid. normal wizard summons are sometimes useful, but for example the level 8 summon creature list is extremely short and mostly has evil creatures. And witches don't have much in utility spells, compared to wizards.
This class was fun when my hexed tend to work, not so fun now.
The misfortune hex is a powerful ability, and if you have a high DC and the GM's has not jacked up the monster's save it can be terrible for the enemy especially if you couple with another debuff from yourself or another caster. Since it can be extended with cackle it can make things really bad.
Remember it doesn't just affect one roll. It works for every d20 roll as long as it is active. Couple it with Evil Eye and things can get a lot worse.
Exactly.
I don't hate the misfortune hex, but it is too powerful. I've had it ruin 1 campaign as a GM and seen it ruin another campaign as a player. In the second case the other player which played the witch decided of his own volition to stop using it because it was ruining the encounters, which we are surprisingly also playing RoTRL.
Slumber is only a problem against single enemies, that is an easy fix. I can add another enemy/enemies, even a weak one(s) to wake up a target where it would be appropriate. Usually most fights in APs require me to add the advanced template, max hp, and add some minions to keep the fights challenging for the party (they're fairly well optimized).
Misfortune isn't just a simple debuff, it's roll twice and pray to the RNG gods that you roll high twice. Misfortune can take the meanest BBEG a neuter them into ineffectiveness. That you chose hexes that are mostly mind affecting and Misfortune is the only one that isn't mind-affecting was your choice. There are plenty of hexes that aren't mind affecting, they just aren't as strong a choice as the ones that are. But that's the tradeoff. Besides, you still have a whole spell list of things you can do other than hexes against such enemies so you aren't shut down. But Misfortune can literally shut down the BBEG. The minions I've stuck with him aren't a serious threat, and now he will spend his next few turns doing nothing effectively while the party kills the minions and then him. It's a strong enough ability that when it succeeds I might as well not bother running the encounter. Which makes the game for un-fun, regardless of whether I'm the GM dealing with it, or the player next to you while it happens.
The only other option is raising the saves of the creatures to specifically counter the witch, which is adversarial GMing. It sounds like what your GM has done, to counter you.
I don't like countering players into ineffectiveness. That's not fun for them. So rather, I simply remove options that can be handled well without doing that.
| Claxon |
Claxon wrote:
As a GM I've simply written into my house rules that I can't abide the Misfortune Hex (and I never run solo encounter so the Slumber Hex is usually action economy trades as the other NPC(s) wake up the sleeping one). I do understand this greatly reduces the strength of a Witch, but I am also upfront about it with my players so that it isn't a surprise to them. Unfortunately, some player abilities are so imbalanced that the only way I can deal with them as a GM is to ban them and let my players know about it before the start of a campaign.Well, your campaign is your campaign and all that, but I can't really imagine why Misfortune, in particular, is singled out for such treatment. It's a fairly ordinary save-or-suck spell, neutralized in part by the fact that the witch needs to be in the monster's face to use it, and in part by the fact that the witch needs to spend a move action every round to keep it up, and neutralized in a third part by the fact that it only comes into play if the monster does something requiring a die roll (so, for example, using a typical SLA is unhampered).
I think it's one of the GM-friendlier abilities, frankly, because it essentially takes the witch out of the fight (because of the move action requirement, unless you're changing your blouse every round in a sort of striptease) and it still requires the rest of the party to actually do the work to bring the BBEG down, so the ranger and paladin still feel they got to bring the pain train to the stone giant.
Misfortune isn't singled out. There are many things I ban or alter to fit the type of game I want to have as a GM. I have typed up a document to give to my players when I start a campaign so that there aren't surprises, and when not GMing I revise and update it so that I don't have to "counter a player" mid game just to keep a level of challenge to the game.
The problem with Misfortune is the unlimited number of times it can be used and the fact that the duration can be extended.
If it was infinite use but couldn't be extended by cackle that would probably be alright.
Or if it was 1 use per 3 levels (min 1) that would probably be okay too.
But it's an unlimited uses, scaling DC, ability that can have its duration extended.
As for it only affects creatures when they have to make a die roll...that's pretty much everyone that isn't a full progression spell caster focused on certain builds (like summoning). Most classes need to roll a d20 to do something to the enemy.
| The Sword |
Maybe speak to your DM about freeing up slumber hex but make it Exhaust enemies of a higher HD than you instead of puttimg them to sleep.
I agreed this with my party witch in exchange for agreeing that outsiders could be affected by the hex - the rules are ambiguous on this point as I see it.
To be honest this is a simple house rule that lets a witch become relevant in more fights without the DM being having his BBEG taken out by a single slumber hex.
darrenan
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Misfortune is the same thing as disadvantage in D&D 5E, and the maths have been done:
Advantage/Disadvantage Analysis
If the target number is 11, Misfortune works out to a -5 on the roll, with the penalty dropping off in either direction.
| Friend of the Dork |
Quote:@Claxon:
Why do you hate the Misfortune Hex? It's simply a debuff, and it can be saved against as easily as anything else. I can understand banning the Slumber hex, which is OP against certain enemies, but Misfortune is quite often the only hex I have to use against certain enemies (undead, golems etc.) which there are many of in the RotRL campaign.
If i wanted to rely on summons, I would play a Summoner or maybe a druid. normal wizard summons are sometimes useful, but for example the level 8 summon creature list is extremely short and mostly has evil creatures. And witches don't have much in utility spells, compared to wizards.
This class was fun when my hexed tend to work, not so fun now.wraithstrike wrote:The misfortune hex is a powerful ability, and if you have a high DC and the GM's has not jacked up the monster's save it can be terrible for the enemy especially if you couple with another debuff from yourself or another caster. Since it can be extended with cackle it can make things really bad.
Remember it doesn't just affect one roll. It works for every d20 roll as long as it is active. Couple it with Evil Eye and things can get a lot worse.
Exactly.
I don't hate the misfortune hex, but it is too powerful. I've had it ruin 1 campaign as a GM and seen it ruin another campaign as a player. In the second case the other player which played the witch decided of his own volition to stop using it because it was ruining the encounters, which we are surprisingly also playing RoTRL.
Slumber is only a problem against single enemies, that is an easy fix. I can add another enemy/enemies, even a weak one(s) to wake up a target where it would be appropriate. Usually most fights in APs require me to add the advanced template, max hp, and add some minions to keep the fights challenging for the party (they're fairly well optimized).
Misfortune isn't just a simple debuff, it's roll twice and pray to the RNG gods that you roll high twice. Misfortune can take the...
Well it's fair that you warn the players of the house rule beforehand, in my game that is unfortunately not always the case as the DM is fairly inexperienced with PF, and also have limited time to tweak rules outside of game.
Slumber isn't only a problem against single enemies IMO, as it takes them out a whole round when it works, even if a minion wakes them up. Against a BBEG, a round of doing nothing is horrible assuming the party can take advantage of it, and in some cases they can even CDG the BBEG so the combat is over (except for minions). Save or unconscious can be gamebreaking, and Slumber hex is just one example.
Misfortune is however simply a debuff, but a very good one (about -5 at worst, as someone pointing out). The fact that it stacks with normal penalties makes it possible to debuff an enemy into oblivion, assuming it fails the saves, especially if you stack with Evil eye, Bestow curse, any kind of fear or sickened penalty, and Enervation the BBEG is reduced to a completely harmless creature in pure combat ability (but not with SLAs, spells, SUs etc.).
This is much harder to pull off in practice though. First of all, the range of 30' is extremely limiting - my character is squishy, and have to use a lot of spells and resources to amend this. Encounters often start outside the 30' range area too, and thus I can't always use the first move action for Cackle - until 8th level that meant I could not use Misfortune in the first round, but had to move into position and then try Evil eye. You also need to keep up that cackle, which is easily broken simply by moving away, using teleport, dimm door etc which BBEGs have been doing a lot in the RotRL campaign. Once they are outside, Misfortune is off and can never be reapplied that day.
And lastly, action economy for witches sucks. Most are Standard actions, and cackle is move action except for using the Blouse. By the time I have used evil eye, misfortune and possibly a third debuff, the barbarian of the party has easily done 300-400 damage - enough to outright kill the BBEG. My actions only help this, it does not actually take out enemies.
My options are limited. I have some weak direct damage spells, but often at higher level than wizards, and this has always been weak - a firebal doing about 30 damage, which is even less than a single strike from the barbarian or smiting Paladin. I waste my time and my party's time if i attempt this - last time I used a maximized Lightning bolt the enemy easily shrugged it off.
Except for the really good ones, most hexes are crap. Breathe swamp water? Talk to birds? Most of them are like low-level spells, yet weaker due to duration or limitations on uses per day. If you see any good hex I haven't though of that actually affects many enemies and are worthwhile to use in combat, please let me know, but as far as I can see, Evil Eye and Misfortune are the best ones, except maybe for Slumber against certain enemies.
My spells are likewise the same, it's a very limited list compared to Sorc/Wiz, and most of them are amusing debuff spells that are esily negated with a saving throws. Even Irresistible Dance is now quite resistible (damn you Paizo).
My most useful spells as noted is Greater dispel magic against BBEGs who cast magic, and helping the party with heroism, see invisible, true seeing etc. Unlike most of my party, I need a lot of spellup to be somewhat hard to hit for enemies, and I can't really compete against the tough melee monsters.
I like my prehensile hair hex, and I often use it for delivering tough, but in combat the to hit is generally too weak (about +20 when buffed), and the damage of 13-16 is pathetic compared to the brawlers of the party. It means I can't really do that even as a backup, except maybe against really weak enemies (although I did actually finish of a Wendigo like that!) ;)
But this thread isn't all about Misfortune, it's the fact that most of my spells and Hexes are will negates or will (useless), and I feel I have often little to contribute with in combat compared to the damage dealers, and the druid who now can do hundreds of damage with a spell (fire seeds, 8d8+128 per spell).
The good thing about Misfortune? It allows me to debuff an enemy, which helps the party quite a lot, while yet keeping them in combat so it's not all over - and except for the brawling only BBEG they can still do a lot of dangerous stuff to the party. However, there need to be at least a decent chance (25% or higher) of the hex working, or it's just a waste of time.
@Sani:
Witch level is not the same as caster level.
Caster level uses the witch class level + modifiers.
The only way to raise your witch level is to ... level up, unless you get something like Druids Belt for witch hexes.
Selvaxri
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have you thought about investing in Pages/Rings of Spell Knowledge to "extend" her known spell list?
I've learned with my Enchantment-oriented Sorcerer, that flexibility is important.
If your primary tactics aren't working, then switch it up. You know an enemy is immune to mind-effects? shank'em with Ice Spears.
Also, doing "some damage" no matter how meager, is still doing something.
Wah, i only did 13 damage... it was 13 damage that the brawler/fighter/barbarian hasn't dealt yet. 13 damage gets an enemy that closer to being knocked down.
doing something is better than doing nothing, even it is only a handful of damage.
| Kobold Commando |
Misfortune has a hard counter built in, however; if you can get out of range of the cackling for just a short time you're free for the rest of the day, barring shenanigans. So find a door and put it between you and the witch or throw up a wall spell around yourself and you're golden. Alternately, have minions throw nets, lassos, or even lowly tanglefoot bags at the witch to slow them for a round.
A potion or oil of silence is probably overkill, but it does a lot of work in protecting noncasters from casters in general too.
| 'Sani |
have you thought about investing in Pages/Rings of Spell Knowledge to "extend" her known spell list?
I've learned with my Enchantment-oriented Sorcerer, that flexibility is important.
If your primary tactics aren't working, then switch it up. You know an enemy is immune to mind-effects? shank'em with Ice Spears.Also, doing "some damage" no matter how meager, is still doing something.
Wah, i only did 13 damage... it was 13 damage that the brawler/fighter/barbarian hasn't dealt yet. 13 damage gets an enemy that closer to being knocked down.doing something is better than doing nothing, even it is only a handful of damage.
Pages and Rings of spell knowledge are useless to a witch, as witches are prepared casters and not spontaneous. Plus witch familiars are like wizard spell books in that they can 'learn' any number of spells. So potentially a witch who invests the time and money in tracking down and learning spells could eventually learn every spell on the witches spell list.
One thing you could possibly look into if you want to remain a debuffer is to pour over the witches spell list looking for debuffs that target each of the different saves, and use those spells based on what the weak saves are of what you are targeting. There are a LOT of beautifully vicious debuffs on the witches list, and not all of them are mind effecting, or Will saves. Many witch spells, and NASTY ones at that, are physical and target Fortitude, and there are some neat ones that require Reflex saves.
Now many witch debuffs are touch spells, but a wand of of memorized Spectral Hand allows you to touch attack your heart out from a well out of danger, at least for 4th level or lower spells.
We'll have to disagree about the increase of DC on the corset, as every time I've encountered it (home games, Hero Lab, PFS judge rulings) it has been interpreted to raise the DC of the hex it is applied to, so that's how I will continue to read it. However, I can see how the interpretation will vary by GM, so table variation is definitely something to be aware of.
| Sekitou |
| Orfamay Quest |
Is 3rd party allowed? If so, I recently picked up this feat for my witch.
Potent hex
You have developed more powerful hexes.
Prerequisite: Hex class feature
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus to the DC of all your hexes.
That seems (to me) a very bad idea.
You know what will happen. Either the GM will not allow it (and feelings will be hurt), or the GM will allow it and then silently negate it behind the curtain -- we're already talking about the GM giving a stealth buff to everyone's Will save, so now he just gives a slightly larger stealth buff, and the hexes are still rendered useless, but now the witch is also down a feat that could have been spent on something useful like Skill Focus (air guitar) or something. And feelings will be hurt.
The solution to this situation isn't going to be found in a rule book.
| Saldiven |
To the OP, here's a mini-spoiler if you care to read it. It doesn't actually reveal any of the plot or anything, but it may not be something you want to hear:
So, the GM is definitely adjusting things to be more of a challenge.
| voska66 |
I played a witch in Kingmaker and I felt your pain. I either shut the encounter down in a couple rounds or I stood around twiddling my thumbs since everything was immune to mind-affecting.
My advice is pick spells or use magic items to round out your hexes. In fights where my hexes didn't work well, I'd buff my party.
I found the witch a rather boring character to play because as you say you pretty much do the same thing every combat.
Also, if the DM is getting a 34 on a low roll he is screwing you over. I hope that's a boss encounter. Those saves are way too high otherwise, nobody is going to beat those very often unless you are mythic.
You don't need to be mythic. You just need to be a Barbarian. A 20th Barbarian could get 34 on a low roll easy. A 20th level Barbarian is CR19 so right in the top range for challenging fight for APL 16 party. The Barbarian might even last 2 rounds.
| Orfamay Quest |
Vaellen wrote:You don't need to be mythic. You just need to be a Barbarian. A 20th Barbarian could get 34 on a low roll easy. A 20th level Barbarian is CR19 so right in the top range for challenging fight for APL 16 party. The Barbarian might even last 2 rounds.I played a witch in Kingmaker and I felt your pain. I either shut the encounter down in a couple rounds or I stood around twiddling my thumbs since everything was immune to mind-affecting.
My advice is pick spells or use magic items to round out your hexes. In fights where my hexes didn't work well, I'd buff my party.
I found the witch a rather boring character to play because as you say you pretty much do the same thing every combat.
Also, if the DM is getting a 34 on a low roll he is screwing you over. I hope that's a boss encounter. Those saves are way too high otherwise, nobody is going to beat those very often unless you are mythic.
On the other hand, if every fight the party faces consists of a 20th level barbarian, the GM is still screwing over the party.
| Cevah |
I have had great success with the Blindness/Deafness spells. Fort save, not mind affecting. Great vs. casters. Not so great vs. summoners.
Silence, Grease, Web, Glitterdust -- all good to debuff BBEGs.
Tangleshot arrows(bolts) are like tanglefoot bags. Easier to defeat, but still full debuff of the bag.
Overland flight -- good for getting you close, but out of reach of melee.
Displacement -- good for avoiding getting hit.
Blur, mirror image -- good for ranged protection.
You say you headband is capped. The +6 cap applies to 3.X, not PF. PF has no cap.
There are some spells that give other bonuses to stats. [Morale, Insight, I think]
Ice Tomb -- Temporarily shut down an enemy.
Retribution -- Repeated use will eventually land this.
Use the Knowledge skills to learn their weaknesses.
Target their weak save.
While not all the spells may be on your list, wands or items of them should not be too hard to get.
/cevah
| Friend of the Dork |
To the OP, here's a mini-spoiler if you care to read it. It doesn't actually reveal any of the plot or anything, but it may not be something you want to hear:
** spoiler omitted **
There is no doubt that the GM is using creatures with higher saves - last fight we encountered a White Great Wyrm, which I believe is one or two magnitudes greater than what I assume the module introduced.
Using a CR 18 creature against a level 16 party is fine by me, especially when it's a solo encounter, but it also means my save DCs are rather weak. The monsters SRD entrance had only +19 will listed, but using spells it can easily be raised to +22, which means a 5 is enough to save against my Hexes.
I am not sure if the GM actually has raised the saves, or simply rolled very high in general on them, as well as equipping the monsters smartly. I think overuse of high-cr monsters is the actual problem, but we shall have to see how the rest of the RotRL plays out.
In the fight I mentioned I was unable to have the dragon fail saves against me, but on the other hand I had several useful things to do, such as Dispelling it, buffing my party, casting Heal, and most importantly, using Dimmension Door agressively to let my party full attack the dragon who was using hit&run tactics against us.
In any case, thanks for tips to those around here.
| CampinCarl9127 |
"Save or lose" abilities get a lot less cute at higher levels when fights should be epic. Sure up to level 5 it was nice when you could make the pirate captain fall asleep, but at the level where hundreds of damage are being thrown around its boring to say "Welp failed a save fight over". My suggestion is investing in some battlefield control abilities. All the special defenses in the world don't matter if you don't directly target them.
| Friend of the Dork |
"Save or lose" abilities get a lot less cute at higher levels when fights should be epic. Sure up to level 5 it was nice when you could make the pirate captain fall asleep, but at the level where hundreds of damage are being thrown around its boring to say "Welp failed a save fight over". My suggestion is investing in some battlefield control abilities. All the special defenses in the world don't matter if you don't directly target them.
It's not about save or lose, it's about debuffs that require a save, which most of them do. Except for slumber, there are very few save or lose hexes, and many creatures are immune to that at this level anyway.
I suggest you look at the posts before answering, or at least check out the Witch class, not much battlefield control there.