I'm looking at the Vigilante's civilian identity and a LOT of social talents refer to renown, celebrity, network and such, similar to how an aristocrat is more of a social-based class.
The Vigilante, however, offers an alter ego with combat abilities, something the aristocrast doesn't normally have.
That got me thinking: is the Vigilante an answer to have a playable Aristocrat? I'm not saying that every noble is a Vigilante (that would be scary :P ) or that an Aristocrat NPC can't fight... but the parallels between a Vigilante's social identity and an aristocrat are similar.
With out using 3PP, I think that the Vigilante is by far the best way to do so.
In theory, that sounds like the idea behind the civie side. It's not a bad concept all things considered.
Considering the iconic is an aristocrat it seems rather intentional.
In theory, that sounds like the idea behind the civie side. It's not a bad concept all things considered.
Considering the iconic is an aristocrat it seems rather intentional.
Well, there isn't a social talent that makes the civilian a "regular person" as a whole. All of them make the civilian a popular and well-known character.
Well, there isn't a social talent that makes the civilian a "regular person" as a whole. All of them make the civilian a popular and well-known character.
Aristocrats aren't exactly regular people.
Well, there isn't a social talent that makes the civilian a "regular person" as a whole. All of them make the civilian a popular and well-known character.Aristocrats aren't exactly regular people.
What I meant is that the social identity doesn't offer a persona similar to an everyday person... which is kinda sad the more I think about it.
Sure, I get the inspiration for the class, but I feel like there could be potential if there was an archetype that would change the social identity into a regular person.
I mean come on, having a "simple" peasant, blacksmith, fisherman, merchant, waitress or even the town's idiot as a vigilante's ego would be surprising turn of events. You know the line "No one would suspect [this person] to be the real culprit"? That would work great in this situation, even more than the current social identity.
Back to the topic at hand, I assume that what they were aiming for. A Vigilante's main role is to infiltrate a social network "by day", mostly politic or business, and to deliver justice "by night". An Aristocrat has quite the affinity with the social network alright.
Well, you can be a peasant, blacksmith, fisherman, merchant, waitress (that's why talents like doubletime exist). You'll just be one with a reputation.
You can play an aristocratic character of any class. It all depends on the nature of the game. If the game is mostly dungeon-delving or "hang out in the tavern and be approached by strangers with quests," then playing an aristocrat might not make a lot of sense.
But if you're running an urban game with a lot of intrigue, then having a PC who's the daughter of the Lord-Mayor could make a lot of sense.
About 10 years ago, in the last 3.5 campaign I was in before we switched to PFRPG, my PC was the baron of an impoverished barony after his father had squandered the barony's treasury and died of excessive drink... or possibly syphillis (we were never quite sure).
My PC started out as a first-level character as an Aristocrat, then multiclassed to Fighter for the rest of his adventuring career. (The campaign ended when the PCs were about 15th level.) His goal in life was to restore the good name of his family and to bring his barony out of poverty. To do that, he served as commander of the King's elite Black Ravens unit-- which was essentially a party of adventurers who were sent on special missions for the King (i.e. the PCs.)
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Vigilante can make a good Aristocrat, yeah. Frankly, if you don't want a secret identity Vigilante lets you do that pretty effectively. You lose out on the absurd Disguise bonus and divination immunity, but can freely use Vigilante Talents in your social identity (since the roll to avoid giving yourself away is suddenly irrelevant), which is cool. A few Vigilante and Social Talents become useless with this build, but most are still valid.
But, as noted, almost any class can make a good Aristocrat...just ones with slightly different training. Cavalier, Swashbuckler, and Bard leap to mind as three of the most obvious possibilities.
The Phantom Thief Archetype fort Rogue from UI is a particularly interesting example, losing Sneak Attack entirely for huge skill bonuses (+1/2 level on a lot of skills) and the ability to take combat Trick and Minor and Major Magic an unlimited number of times. That's...not optimal in combat, but it's interesting, and could make a fun character.
Celebrity Perks would be fantastic with an aristocrat.
I'm a tad disappointed with not having knowledge (nobility) as a class skill. The traits granting it are rather "meh" when it comes to fitting with backgrounds.
Levels in courtly knight cavalier, majordomo investigator, phantom thief rogue, velvet blade slayer, or noble fencer swashbuckler can easily be used instead of aristocrat. If you want a noble that dabbles in spells, wit bard, courtly hunter (can be especially nasty when the "harmless little kitten" changes back into a large cat companion), vizier or vox mesmerist (depending on if you want a subtle manipulator or outspoken demagogue), ancestral aspirant occultist, dandy ranger, or battle scion skald(for more militaristic cultures) can be good choices.
Use of the Influence systems (both individual and organizational) and some of the feats can be used in place of the vigilante's renown social talents.
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I'm a tad disappointed with not having knowledge (nobility) as a class skill. The traits granting it are rather "meh" when it comes to fitting with backgrounds.
Just use a version of the Child of Kintargo/Chelish Noble campaign trait (tailored for the setting), which removes the Cha requirement from the Noble Scion feat, as well as making Knowledge (Nobility) a class skill and providing some bonuses to skill checks with other nobles.
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A campaign trait isn't always available from AP to AP or in PFS or even in home games.
I'm looking at the Vigilante's civilian identity and a LOT of social talents refer to renown, celebrity, network and such, similar to how an aristocrat is more of a social-based class.
The Vigilante, however, offers an alter ego with combat abilities, something the aristocrast doesn't normally have.
That got me thinking: is the Vigilante an answer to have a playable Aristocrat? I'm not saying that every noble is a Vigilante (that would be scary :P ) or that an Aristocrat NPC can't fight... but the parallels between a Vigilante's social identity and an aristocrat are similar.
It's not a fair comparison. Aristocrats were built as NPC classes. Might as well compare Expert with Bard.
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Levels in courtly knight cavalier, majordomo investigator, phantom thief rogue, velvet blade slayer, or noble fencer swashbuckler can easily be used instead of aristocrat. If you want a noble that dabbles in spells, wit bard, courtly hunter (can be especially nasty when the "harmless little kitten" changes back into a large cat companion), vizier or vox mesmerist (depending on if you want a subtle manipulator or outspoken demagogue), ancestral aspirant occultist, dandy ranger, or battle scion skald(for more militaristic cultures) can be good choices.
I love all the options UI has for aristocratic/socialite characters.
I'm never going to be able to personally play half of them but my goodness my noncombat NPCs are getting a lot more interesting.
That got me thinking: is the Vigilante an answer to have a playable Aristocrat? I'm not saying that every noble is a Vigilante (that would be scary :P ) or that an Aristocrat NPC can't fight... but the parallels between a Vigilante's social identity and an aristocrat are similar.
I hadn't thought about that, but yeah. That's a good way to look at it.
I'm looking forward to try out celebrity perks and celebrity discount in a game. I was thinking maybe the disguise social talents instead, but while mechanically useful, that wouldn't be as fun as to prance around Absalom or other major cities as the cock of the walk socialite aristocrat.
What would be hillarious is playing a dedicated aristocrat in a game with hidden character sheets. Then, the chips are down, the heroes are out, only you are left cowering in the corner. And for the first time in the game you transform.
What would be hillarious is playing a dedicated aristocrat in a game with hidden character sheets. Then, the chips are down, the heroes are out, only you are left cowering in the corner. And for the first time in the game you transform.
Hope you have a quick-change mask with you... or whatever that magic item that changes you instantly is called :P
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At that point the vigilante in social identity doesn't plan on leaving any witnesses to tell any tales...
Hmmm... is the Vigilante an answer to have a playable Aristocrat?
Well, that or maybe Sailor Moon... >.>
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What would be hillarious is playing a dedicated aristocrat in a game with hidden character sheets. Then, the chips are down, the heroes are out, only you are left cowering in the corner. And for the first time in the game you transform.
I'm working with my gm to do this sorta. My aristocrat will run from every fight and he will have an npc that shows up from time to time that I will secretly control(hooray texting).
I expect to be found out by the other players fairly quickly, but it should be fun.
Well that's the idea Drahliana. OP is suggesting that Vigilantes might be the PC equivalent of the Aristocrat in the same way that Clerics are the PC equivalent of adepts, Fighters are the PC equivalent of warriors, Rogues are the PC equivalent of experts and Monks are the PC equivalent of commoners
Vigilantes are a problem class. They've come out with baggage that's been saddled onto them by Paizo's not quite selling them as superhero characters, when overall they're not really super. In the playtest in fact, unless played carefully vigilantes actually can come out as subpar compared to their adventuring comrades.
What many forget is that superhero campaigns generally take place in a much different venue than the typical fantasy roleplaying campaign.
Gotham for instance it's most darkest, is still a far more civilised setting than your average dungeon or adventure setting most groups find them in. The idea of Batman infiltrating a kobold lair is at best..offputting.
Vigilantes need their own kind of campaign, almost their own sort of biology of villains to fight. And you really need your group to be either all Vigilantes or none. The only reason Superman was able to operate with Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen is because he spends so much of his time AWAY from them. And Batman is practically a recluse even within his hero community.
That said, I think these classes can work and work well, but campaigns for them need to be built outside of the typical box we frame our expectations in.
Vigilantes are a problem class. They've come out with baggage that's been saddled onto them by Paizo's not quite selling them as superhero characters, when overall they're not really super.
Except they primarily described it with characters like Zorro, Scarlet Pimpernel and the Red Raven, with only a few Jokes about batman. They sold them as vigilantes, not superheroes.
Really, Vigilante should work just fine in any game that isn't a pure dungeon crawl, and they aren't too bad even there.
How about if the vigilante was a class with togglable abilities? That is essentially what is the vigilante identity: one time you're a civilian, the other time you're a fighter, as in you're fighting, not the actual class.
For roleplay purposes, the social identity is perfect for diplomatic approaches, negotications and information gathering, only to use this information when donning your vigilante identity.
BTW, "dungeon crawling" into a goblin's lair can still provide the vigilante with a decent challenge. Same goes with infiltrating a hobgoblin war camp to rescue prisoners of war.
You... just need to replace a modern underground complex with caves, camps, forests and stone walls :P