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A continuation from here
Let's all play the arguing numbers game! And whether or not the Kineticist's damage is too low or not.
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I'll be the first one to bite, with a few thoughts and assumptions on the class and why people like/hate it.
* The class is built as a blaster class, and it does just that. It can literally blast all day. Other blaster builds I've seen can run dry.
* I think some people see/hear that and assume that that means its going to be a top DPS/DPR contender and are disappointed when they see the actual numbers and math.
* I think some people forget or don't care about the utility included with the attack blast. A fighter has to forgo an attack to trip. Cone, line, chain, aoe spells tend to be higher level so fewer casts but not with a kineticist with gather power. etc
* Pure casters have ultimate utility but limited casts per day (and some have to prepare enough of them while others have to actually have it on their list) and raw DPS/DPR archers or whathaveyou can top those charts but are much more limited on utility, both in and out of combat. The kineticist is a class that is in the middle.
* It's a game and people have preferences. Some will love it and some won't. Have fun doing you how you know best.
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I personally think the damage is fine myself. I think one of the issues some people have is that at the moment, there's no direct way to really pump damage. Most other classes can use a combination of feats/items/etc to max out damage, but at the moment (through designer intent), the damage of the kineticist is much more tightly guarded. A lot of the tricks that'll push damage up for normal characters don't work (deadly aim, most archery feats really), which makes the class seem weaker than it is.
As stated, the warlock was an ever worse damage dealer, and I feel like kineticist deals more damage than them with its current options, even if the lack of options if forcing players into that very narrow damage concerns. It's interesting; the damage difference between an optimized and unoptimized kineticist is a lot smaller than other classes.
It was definitely also intentional to lower the floor so that assuming you put up Dex and Con (and I think putting up your class's stats is a minimum baseline assumption), you would immediately be in pretty good shape to pull your weight. I kind of wish more classes worked that way (such that your "reasonable" floor was still OK output and your ceiling wasn't way way higher), as that would certainly make it easier to balance fun encounters without tailoring them for a specific group. It's definitely true that kineticist deals a whole lot more damage than a warlock, especially a Complete Arcane warlock, as some of the later books added options that increased warlock damage by more than double, but kinetic whip should still outdamage eldritch glaive, I think.
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As others noted in the other thread, Kineticist is pretty solid in a standard game.
In a really high optimization game, you generally need to go melee to make it work because Haste is just so very, very, good. That said, the melee build is pretty good potentially even in that milieu, with 15 foot reach, sky-high Dex, and Combat Reflexes on top of full attacks.
As stated, the warlock was an ever worse damage dealer, and I feel like kineticist deals more damage than them with its current options, even if the lack of options if forcing players into that very narrow damage concerns. It's interesting; the damage difference between an optimized and unoptimized kineticist is a lot smaller than other classes.
This certainly seems like a valid consideration. I could see some feat chains existing to get around this. The blasting nature of the class certainly calls into question what or how though. For melee it seems like DPR can be really well optimized already. Just not quite on par with something that has full sneak attack. But it is reliable and the feat free nature means you can go for terribl- I mean, unconventional melee feats.
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I play a pyrokineticist in PFS and I picked Expanded Element (air) at level 7 for fire immune creatures but I hardly ever use it, preferring the lesser damage but higher accuracy of touch attack energy blasts.
I also play with optimizers: tiefling alchemists, bloodragers of all stripes, barbarians, inspired blade investigators, archers, wizards/sorcerers, paladins of all varieties (archers/ultimate mercy/sacred shields/two-handers), gunslingers, etc.
The ONLY one that has ever complained about kineticist damage was a player playing a wizard who level dipped crossblooded sorcerer for blasting damage (he also feels gunslingers are stupidly weak), and when actually played together, he may have done more damage a few times, but I lasted a lot longer in combat with crazy amount of hit points and constant blasting. Party had to fight flying robot with hardness and exploding missiles, the kineticist and alchemist had to frontline tank for the rest of the party, they were they only survivable ranged attackers whereas the wizard was close to death and hiding away from combat, until the bloodrager could enlarge himself and finish the fight.
NO ONE else ever complains about the kineticist's damage. Even at low levels, it was still respectable because of the good accuracy. Often, I had to defend the kineticist in fact isn't broken or overpowered with its at-will empower or kinetic blade full attacking with haste, or when I crit I roll 10d6's, at-will infusions such as burning infusion or utilities like flame jets.
The class is so gold efficient I'm able to purchase things I wouldn't dare with other characters. Necklace of adaptation, snakeskin tunic and +4 belt of mighty constitution (Constitution of 26 at level 10, I expect 30 at level 11 when. I upgrade the belt to +6 and overflow), etc.
You forget the part where you can gather power to reduce the cost of an empowered blast. Gather Power only doesn't work on utility talents.
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The issue with kineticist is that the distance between it's floor and ceiling is really really small, so while it's easy to make an average one, it's hard to get it to go beyond the "default" number game that's expected by the math.
A kineticist can blast 'all day', but it only starts doing appreciable damage when it dips into its daily resources.
Isn't that how it should be?
Compared to other classes they consume a resource to be able to perform powerful blast. Shouldn't Kin do so too?
I wasn't really arguing whether or not it was good though, merely disputing the idea that kineticists are an "all day" class. They have a daily resource and are very much limited by it for most of their career.
Well, in some ways yes and in other ways no. I feel like they are more of an elongated day class. They've got more stamina and can still hold their own when that stamina runs out. Some of their features stay active once used. Again longating that day and others get more power. So when the Wizard is using first level spells and cantrips the Kineticist is still somewhat of a blasting powerhouse.
So, while they aren't at full force in an endurance challenge they are still holding their own more or less.
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I dont think the issue with the kineticist it its damage. Or at least not directly.
The problem is the the contraction of 'ceiling' and 'floor' of the class leads to a lack of impactful customization. It costs a lot of the available choices to go along any path of customization (if you want to be the melee whip character you are spending most of your options to make it happen until around 7th level). Thats not a problem with each of the choices you make feels like it has a big impact, but because of the inherent controls on the power of the class, each choice feels lackluster. When only have a couple choices to make with a character (particularly at low levels) even one or two lack luster choices is a problem.
The other big problem that feeds from this is unless you are going melee, the kineticist doesn't have a place in a 4 person party. Literally every other class naturally fills the minimum elements of at least one of the classic fighter/wizard/cleric/rogue setup. The kineticist doesn't meet any of the minimum requirements along its natural flow (blasting). It cant cast detect magic, identify magic items, have good knowledges/spellcraft(be the magic guy). It doesn't have lots of skills, disable magical traps or be a face (rogue type). It cant cure (yes it can heal a little damage, but only an archetype can cure any negative conditions and the cost for that is fairly high, and it still can never do what lesser restoration can).
The only thing this natural blaster can do is take very specific options to eventually (not immediately mind you) become a competent front liner(with optimization). It's something I brought Up in the playtest, that I thought Mark Acknowledged that was never actually addressed. It seems like there was an attempt to address it with but it fails.
Any party with a kineticist in it, would function just fine without the kineticist (in terms of covering things that need to be done in an adventure).
The gut reaction people have for it's so so damage are because it feels like you are giving up everything a class can normally do for that blast. And usually if I give up being a functioning member of my party to do one particular thing, that thing is exceptionally effective. That just isnt the case here. And it stems from a relatively poor set of foundation abilities for the class.
Its really disappointing because I absolutely love the concept, and dont mind limitations on damage potential. But it still needs to be a functioning, contributing pathfinder class. And the kineticist isn't that. Pathfinder classes start with an automatic foundation of a functioning character that fills at least some of the basic neccessities of a classic party, and you can then customize it to your liking. Some of the archetypes sort of do that, but cost you a lot of the customization possibilities for the class.
The base kineticist starts as a shell of a pathfinder class and you might customize it eventually to be a functioning character if you choose a specific set of options. But it also is missing a lot that other classes get automatically. Consider all the 'stuff' other 3/4 bab classes get, and then look back at the kineticist. It just wasn't well designed.
Cost of Blade/Whip: You're in melee and would want to invest in Weapon Finesse feat. Cost is mitigated with great hit points and probably decent AC thanks to good Dexterity, these aren't glass cannons/paper tigers.
Damage Returns of Blade/Whip: You can full attack and benefit from haste. You don't get the overflow bonus to damage with blade/whip but it's still worthwhile since you still get all the x(1d6+1)+Con for physical or x(1d6's)+1/2 Con for energy as your blasts. Blade lasts until end of your turn so unless an AoO gets triggered in the middle of your turn, you're likely not gonna use it on an AoO. Whip lasts until the beginning of your next turn and has reach, so that with Combat Reflexes + great Dexterity and you're looking at plenty of extra attacks on top of any haste party grants.
Aether blades are always weird for me because I'm never sure if the object being wrapped in aether also get damaged from attacks like with blasts.
But you get a +X weapon wrapped in aether, you basically get no benefit from that weapon: no enhancement bonus to attack/damage, no special material benefit, no special weapon features like trip/disarm/block/distracting.
I'm quite interested in a melee geoKineticist myself. My hesitation with the class is it seems they really suffer in the accuracy department unless your blade/whip is energy based. Particularly in comparison with my current melee inquisitor, the Kineticist's accuracy looks really low.
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I'm quite interested in a melee geoKineticist myself. My hesitation with the class is it seems they really suffer in the accuracy department unless your blade/whip is energy based. Particularly in comparison with my current melee inquisitor, the Kineticist's accuracy looks really low.
The Kineticist is just about as accurate as a full BAB class due to Elemental Overflow. Considering level 8, you're at a disadvantage of 2 BAB. However, Elemental Overflow at that level gives you a +2 bonus to two different scores (Dex and Con of course) which makes up one point of the BAB. At that point you're also getting a +2 to your attack rolls straight from Overflow that's independent of the ability score bonuses which then puts you at a +1 advantage. Considering stuff that other full BAB classes get (Ranger's buff spells, Fighter's Weapon Training, Barbarian's Rage) you're looking at an even or just 1 below on your attack rolls.
Sure, you still don't get your iterative attack until level 8 instead of level 6, but you're still just as accurate as a full BAB class. You're also potentially more robust than them since any money that would normally be going towards weapons are instead being put toward armor and Wondrous Items and your defense talent is pretty dang good.
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The other big problem that feeds from this is unless you are going melee, the kineticist doesn't have a place in a 4 person party. Literally every other class naturally fills the minimum elements of at least one of the classic fighter/wizard/cleric/rogue setup. The kineticist doesn't meet any of the minimum requirements along its natural flow (blasting). It cant cast detect magic, identify magic items, have good knowledges/spellcraft(be the magic guy). It doesn't have lots of skills, disable magical traps or be a face (rogue type). It cant cure (yes it can heal a little damage, but only an archetype can cure any negative conditions and the cost for that is fairly high, and it still can never do what lesser restoration can).
I find that between kinetic blade, a tendency to have a rather high Con score, and elemental defense, it handle the "fighter" role just fine. "Going melee" is not a big investment for a kineticist, and it "switch-hits" incredibly well if you've got the one talent and feat you need to melee when the need arises.
EDIT: does TK Fist gives you your blast damage + 1d6/3? Or just your attack damage +1d6/3 its unclear to me. If it gives your blast damage it could be good.
Kinetic fist is unarmed damage + (1d6 PER 3d6 of your regular blast damage). Kinetic fist doesn't get to bonus 2d6 damage til level 11 when your blast is 6d6.
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The other big problem that feeds from this is unless you are going melee, the kineticist doesn't have a place in a 4 person party. Literally every other class naturally fills the minimum elements of at least one of the classic fighter/wizard/cleric/rogue setup. The kineticist doesn't meet any of the minimum requirements along its natural flow (blasting). It cant cast detect magic, identify magic items, have good knowledges/spellcraft(be the magic guy). It doesn't have lots of skills, disable magical traps or be a face (rogue type). It cant cure (yes it can heal a little damage, but only an archetype can cure any negative conditions and the cost for that is fairly high, and it still can never do what lesser restoration can).I find that between kinetic blade, a tendency to have a rather high Con score, and elemental defense, it handle the "fighter" role just fine. "Going melee" is not a big investment for a kineticist, and it "switch-hits" incredibly well if you've got the one talent and feat you need to melee when the need arises.
I recently ran a game for Arutema's kineticist, and he was definitely holding the line (granted, they had 4 melee characters, so it was quite a formidable line), and he performed quite solidly in comparison with the bloodrager and brawler (the paladin was all defense, so had a different shtick).
I recently ran a game for Arutema's kineticist, and he was definitely holding the line (granted, they had 4 melee characters, so it was quite a formidable line), and he performed quite solidly in comparison with the bloodrager and brawler (the paladin was all defense, so had a different shtick).
A kineticist performing on equal ground with a Bloodrager in melee is something I simply need to see to believe.
A kineticist performing on equal ground with a Bloodrager in melee is something I simply need to see to believe.
I recently ran a game for Arutema's kineticist, and he was definitely holding the line (granted, they had 4 melee characters, so it was quite a formidable line), and he performed quite solidly in comparison with the bloodrager and brawler (the paladin was all defense, so had a different shtick).
To be fair, the only time he was outdamaging the bloodrager when they both had a full attack was when he took 1 burn to empower his kinetic blade full attack, but he knew he had defense from the paladin and so cunningly didn't build up his elemental defense that much, so he was able to lightly burn himself throughout the big fight without really caring that much (I think he took 1 burn three times); it also helped that he didn't need to care about positioning due to switch-hitting, whereas the bloodrager wound up needing to move a few times. I believe he may also have been level 7 while the bloodrager was 8 or 9 (it was an 8-9 PFS scenario). Still, I would consider Kineticist(burning)>Bloodrager full attack>Kineticist any other time regardless of positioning>Brawler full attack>Bloodrager had to move>Brawler had to move to be "performed quite solidly in comparison with the bloodrager and brawler". I have no real data about specifics of any of these characters, as I was GMing a session of PFS, but they all seemed solidly built and were certainly creaming the opposition. Still, it's simply one anecdote, so dice rolls would have had a factor as well.
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To me, the Kineticist actually fills a rogue role best. Between amazing movement options, good damage and circumstantially great damage, and a lot of great utility options a Kineticist can scout pretty well.
People look at the Kineticist as one clas though, when really it's closer to four. Telekinetics with the right trait selections are amazing at disabling traps, picking pockets, scouting and navigating hazards. Their damage is secondary to the incredible things an imaginative player can pull off. They can even add a little healing to the repetoire.
Hydrokinetics are closer to clerics or Paladins but specialising in battlefield control more than healing. In aquatic or boreal campaigns they have so many imaginative options that they compete with telekinetics for utility.
Pyrokinetics are similar to gunslingers but with a touch of monk since they can do sweet jumps. In ice based campaigns they dominate when it comes to damage, with free 1.5x damage on many of the bigger badder kinds of monsters.
Geokinetics are great at defense, and excellent at melee making for great Paladin style characters, and their damage is comparable/greater than a paladin except against Evil foes.
Phytokinetics are basically Druids with less shapeshifting, and fulfill a similar role.
Kaokinetics are pretty good scouts and stealth assassins, but need more options to really be viable.
To be honest with the discussion and popularity of the Kineticist along with the page real estate needs of their abilities they need their own softcover source book. Elementalists of Golarion, could give plant and void kinetics a chance to catch up a bit. Though Kineticists of Porphyria I & II are good for home games.
Their decent damage floor means they can really expend feats, magic items and options on things outside hurting things in a way fighters, Rangers and Barbarian types can't. I wouldn't want the Kineticist to fulfill the front line role, I'd want them to fulfil the secondary damage/utility/scout role. So basically a monk.
They do on accuracy. It just doesn't add to damage.The Kineticist is just about as accurate as a full BAB class due to Elemental Overflow.None of the kineticist melee options benefit from Overflow though.
How does the Kineticist accuracy fare with a physical attack when you factor in Piranha Strike? Does it completely tank the accuracy or is it viable?
How does the Kineticist accuracy fare with a physical attack when you factor in Piranha Strike? Does it completely tank the accuracy or is it viable?They do on accuracy. It just doesn't add to damage.The Kineticist is just about as accurate as a full BAB class due to Elemental Overflow.None of the kineticist melee options benefit from Overflow though.
It's going to depend on group dynamic; if your group is like Undone's (and mine) and has up lots of buffs at most times that raise accuracy above the AC of opponents, it's likely to be a good call, but if your only accuracy comes from yourself, because each hit does so much damage on its own, it's less likely to be a good deal. It's not mathematically rigorous, but a good rule of thumb is that if you do more than 40 damage on a hit and you aren't in a situation where you have more than enough accuracy to hit on a 2 (like +30 to hit vs AC 27 or something), you probably shouldn't be using 2-for-1 Power Attack (exceptions include % miss chances and other weird situations). This is because at 40 damage, an extra 2 damage is just 5% more damage, but losing 1 accuracy will always make you lose at least 5% of your successful hits (again unless your bonus was so high that you more than hit on a 2).
The other big problem that feeds from this is unless you are going melee, the kineticist doesn't have a place in a 4 person party. Literally every other class naturally fills the minimum elements of at least one of the classic fighter/wizard/cleric/rogue setup. The kineticist doesn't meet any of the minimum requirements along its natural flow (blasting). It cant cast detect magic, identify magic items, have good knowledges/spellcraft(be the magic guy). It doesn't have lots of skills, disable magical traps or be a face (rogue type). It cant cure (yes it can heal a little damage, but only an archetype can cure any negative conditions and the cost for that is fairly high, and it still can never do what lesser restoration can).I find that between kinetic blade, a tendency to have a rather high Con score, and elemental defense, it handle the "fighter" role just fine. "Going melee" is not a big investment for a kineticist, and it "switch-hits" incredibly well if you've got the one talent and feat you need to melee when the need arises.
I believe if you read on I mention that the only role the kineticist can fill is blaster. However, it cannot do it immediately. Yes you have a good Con, but your AC is not good unless you choose water for your elemental defense. Until you have specialization kinetic blade requires 1 burn, meaning you cant move and attack in the same turn as you have to gather power. And unless you use an energy attack your attack bonus is way behind a real melee character. Remember, energy overflow brings it in line with a full BAB, but ALL full bab classes also get bonuses to attack and damage from their class. You need to take weapon finesse at first level, and you aren't exactly swimming in feats.
Practically the only way to be a reliable frontliner from level 1 is to take the archetype which basically trades the whole class' customization options away to be a good front liner.
So while they can be perfectly serviceable front liner eventually, it costs them substantially more then any other front line class.
Pathfinder has in general designed base classes to work from level 1. The kineticist just isn't a pathfinder class.
To me, the Kineticist actually fills a rogue role best. Between amazing movement options, good damage and circumstantially great damage, and a lot of great utility options a Kineticist can scout pretty well.
People look at the Kineticist as one clas though, when really it's closer to four. Telekinetics with the right trait selections are amazing at disabling traps, picking pockets, scouting and navigating hazards. Their damage is secondary to the incredible things an imaginative player can pull off. They can even add a little healing to the repetoire.
Hydrokinetics are closer to clerics or Paladins but specialising in battlefield control more than healing. In aquatic or boreal campaigns they have so many imaginative options that they compete with telekinetics for utility.
Pyrokinetics are similar to gunslingers but with a touch of monk since they can do sweet jumps. In ice based campaigns they dominate when it comes to damage, with free 1.5x damage on many of the bigger badder kinds of monsters.
Geokinetics are great at defense, and excellent at melee making for great Paladin style characters, and their damage is comparable/greater than a paladin except against Evil foes.
Phytokinetics are basically Druids with less shapeshifting, and fulfill a similar role.
Kaokinetics are pretty good scouts and stealth assassins, but need more options to really be viable.
** spoiler omitted **Their decent damage floor means they can really expend feats, magic items and options on things outside hurting things in a way fighters, Rangers and Barbarian types can't. I wouldn't want the Kineticist to fulfill the front line role, I'd want them to fulfil the secondary damage/utility/scout role. So basically a monk.
What you describe is what the class SHOULD have been. But it isnt.
Telekineticist are not rogues, they should be, but they arent. They dont get disable device, and more importantly, they cant deal with magical traps. They only have 4 skills per level, and they dont have social skills. They cant fill the base requirement of 'rogue'.
Hydrokineticist are not clerics. They can (eventually) do some battlefield control, but not only does that take several levels to get moving, but it also costs them most if not all of their customization options. A cleric prepares a single battlefield control spell and has accomplished the same thing. The barrier to entry is extreme. They also cant fufill the criteria for healing, because HP healing is far less important then the removal of negative conditions. Its outright rediculous that there wasnt an infusion to improve on telekinetic healing to let it approach the restoration spell line. But its not there. Even the archetype Kinetic Chirurgeon cant fill the basic need, the equivalent of the restoration line of spells.
Pyrokineticists can do a whole bunch of damage, but dps is not a role in pathfinder.
Geokineticists are not great for defense at low levels. They are extremely limited at low levels. The difference between the effectiveness out of the gate of the elemental defenses (water being the one that is correct) is laugable. Eventually they can get there. But they basically need to the campaign to start at 6th level to be the front liner.
Phytokinetics aren't druids. Druids being divine spell casters can fufil the basic need of restoration spells. A party with a Phytokineticist in it still needs ANOTHER divine caster to function.
Kaokinetics - Again, murderer is not a pathfinder role. They dont fill the base requirements (skills and traps) of a party skill monkey. Any party with one in it, still needs another skill monkey to function.
This is the problem with the class, you have to take options to even approach being a functioning member of a party. No other class in the game does that. And for the most part, the kineticist fails to meet the basic requirements for one member of a 4 man party.
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Wow that is garbage. I don't know why they would even make that then. It's utterly useless. I assumed it was using blast damage + 1d6/3 but that's just embarrassing. That's objectively worse than the core rogue. I don't know who would think that is ok.EDIT: does TK Fist gives you your blast damage + 1d6/3? Or just your attack damage +1d6/3 its unclear to me. If it gives your blast damage it could be good.Kinetic fist is unarmed damage + (1d6 PER 3d6 of your regular blast damage). Kinetic fist doesn't get to bonus 2d6 damage til level 11 when your blast is 6d6.
If we're looking at a less synergistic team, let's consider the tengu brothers, a level 6 rogue tengu and kineticist tengu, both with claw/claw/bite (since this will outdamage TWF at this level for both). The rogue, with Agile AoMF, might have +4 BAB + 5 Dex for +9 to hit, 1d6+5+3d6 sneak attack each. The kineticist has +4 BAB + 6 Dex (same point buy here, just add size bonus from class) +2 overflow for +12 to hit, 1d6+6+1d6 damage
The rogue is 55% likely to hit a CR 6 typical foe and 35% likely to hit a CR 9 boss. The kineticist is 70% likely to hit the CR 6 and 50% likely to hit the CR 9. Crits favor the kineticist slightly because of the +1 extra static damage.
Per hit the rogue does 19 on a sneak attack or 8.5 otherwise and the kineticist does 13 always (or 17 if she parlays some of that accuracy into damage with Piranha Strike).
Following through, rogue sneak attack full attack is 32 vs 6, 20.4 vs 9, and that gets much worse if the foe is immune to precision or the rogue doesn't have sneak attack conditions, dropping to 14.725 and 9.36. The kineticist is looking at 28.7 and 20.5 (32.13 or 21.42 for Piranha Strike) without needing the sneak attack positioning or precision damage to work (and the same is true for the kineticist's on-hit effect not requiring a sneak attack to work, plus low level options tend to include things like tripping on each hit that are more helpful than core * rogue talents). The kineticist can also use ranged blasts for about 2/3 damage to draw enemies into melee on the first round, while the rogue's move into flank and stab opening round is going to be doing 1/3 of that damage assuming a sneak attack, and ranged even less than 1/3. So without Piranha Strike, but taking the first round advantage into account, against CR 6 we're looking at the fist kineticist dealing about equal damage over the course of a 4 round fight if the rogue always gets sneak attack on every attack (fist does more if the fight is shorter, rogue does more if longer), and against CR 9, the fist just does more. With Piranha Strike, the fist just does more in all cases, even without the first-turn advantage. Thus, in these conditions, which are buff-lite but otherwise pretty favorable for the rogue (since we assume all sneak attacks, no elementals or oozes or stuff), the kineticist seems like the better option, even with limited or no use of other forms (just the one initial blast on round 1 to encourage enemies to come to melee).
That math was just base kineticist. Using elemental ascetic, or especially monk VMC, you can really go to town with kinetic fist, but for the default kineticist, it's more of a use as a delivery mechanism for form infusions and/or way to take advantage of lots of natural attacks / haste / etc for characters who get those. Nonetheless, the two outlined characters deal enough damage to win fights if you put them in the field (in the rogue's case, only with sneak attack, which is a big weakness against certain foes or in some situations, and in the kineticist's case, all the time) especially since we're not counting any other buffs here, and even the most buff-starved parties can probably lend these two a flank.
Don't use Monk VMC though. It's terrible.
I see... Kolokotroni has made up his mind and refuses to consider any other option. I don't know if he has any actual experience playing the kineticist, but his posts seem to indicate not. For example, the kineticist has lots of freedom, feat wise, and only has a few feats even remotely considered 'mandatory'. Namely Weapon Finesse, Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. Everything else is up in the air.
Don't use Monk VMC though. It's terrible.
While it's not the right fit for most builds, it's actually quite useful for a non-ascetic kinetic fist build, very especially water. Everything you gain is worth a feat (1st power is a big damage boost, evasion, ki pool for more attacks, and +3 AC is particularly powerful vis-a-vis a feat if you were watering for armor anyway), and you can spare them.
I see... Kolokotroni has made up his mind and refuses to consider any other option. I don't know if he has any actual experience playing the kineticist, but his posts seem to indicate not. For example, the kineticist has lots of freedom, feat wise, and only has a few feats even remotely considered 'mandatory'. Namely Weapon Finesse, Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. Everything else is up in the air.
When you dont get bonus feats, a non-human character is looking at 7th level before he chooses a feat in your example.
I am more then willing to consider other options. I have a strong opinion, but not one built out of ignorance, but out of trying to play kineticists in a 4 person party in a campaign that starts at 1st level.
If you play a paizo adventure (or any traditional campaign), the only thing a kineticist can be is the front liner in a 4 person party, and as mentioned, you will have difficulty the first few levels getting that done beyond what any other pathfinder class faces. That is a problem. The natural flow of the class (focusing on ranged blasts with infusions added to them) cannot fit into a 4 person party unless the other 3 party members are flexible enough to do everything without them, and they are just adding some damage to the mix.
Edit
I would love to be wrong. Show me how you can take the fighter/cleric/rogue/wizard party and replace anything but the fighter with the kineticist and have a party that can manage the challenges a typical adventure path throws at it, particularly at early levels (6 and down).
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Pyrokineticists can do a whole bunch of damage, but dps is not a role in pathfinder.
I disagree with the second part. Murder, Control/Support and Skillmonkey are more or less the main things you need to do in Pathfinder. The best classes are the ones that can do more than one thing, but it's still clearly a core role. I mean there are eighteen or so classes just built around that concept.
I'm also not sure I'd call pyro the DPR discipline. At low levels burning infusion is pretty solid, but later in the game I'd rather have earth/earth/aether or void/void/aether for DPR. Though void struggles with resistances just as badly as fire.
I see... Kolokotroni has made up his mind and refuses to consider any other option. I don't know if he has any actual experience playing the kineticist, but his posts seem to indicate not. For example, the kineticist has lots of freedom, feat wise, and only has a few feats even remotely considered 'mandatory'. Namely Weapon Finesse, Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. Everything else is up in the air.When you dont get bonus feats, a non-human character is looking at 7th level before he chooses a feat in your example.
I am more then willing to consider other options. I have a strong opinion, but not one built out of ignorance, but out of trying to play kineticists in a 4 person party in a campaign that starts at 1st level.
If you play a paizo adventure (or any traditional campaign), the only thing a kineticist can be is the front liner in a 4 person party, and as mentioned, you will have difficulty the first few levels getting that done beyond what any other pathfinder class faces. That is a problem. The natural flow of the class (focusing on ranged blasts with infusions added to them) cannot fit into a 4 person party unless the other 3 party members are flexible enough to do everything without them, and they are just adding some damage to the mix.
I'm just wondering (and this is not meant in any way as a negative; I remember following your posts and points in various threads before even working here when I was just another forum poster and respecting them Kolo): does that mean that in your conception, a zen archer monk (or gunslinger, or any ranged martial character really) would also be something that has no place in Pathfinder? I've typically found them to be highly effective teammates in 4 person groups, even while having less frontline switch-hitting capacity than a kineticist would, but if not, that's going to be useful data for me overall when thinking about ranged characters.
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I believe if you read on I mention that the only role the kineticist can fill is blaster. However, it cannot do it immediately. Yes you have a good Con, but your AC is not good unless you choose water for your elemental defense. Until you have specialization kinetic blade requires 1 burn, meaning you cant move and attack in the same turn as you have to gather power. And unless you use an energy attack your attack bonus is way behind a real melee character. Remember, energy overflow brings it in line with a full BAB, but ALL full bab classes also get bonuses to attack and damage from their class. You need to take weapon finesse at first level, and you aren't exactly swimming in feats.
Water is admittedly a very good choice if you are going into melee as a kineticist.
At low levels (before you get elemental overflow), your BAB is exactly 1 point lower than the fighter's, and the same as the rogue's. You can do just fine using a physical blast at low levels.
Kineticist isn't exactly a feat-starved class. You'd hardly be the only Dex-heavy character that takes weapon finesse at first level.
Needing a full-round action to make a melee attack without suffering burn is admittedly a hinderance. Opening with a ranged attack, then moving closer is not a bad idea. (And keep in mind, at level 1, the poor rogue and cleric are spending their move actions to draw their weapons.) People also undervalue total defense as your standard action.
And no, this is not theory-crafting, this actual play experience of a hydrokineticist in PFS.
Pyrokineticists can do a whole bunch of damage, but dps is not a role in pathfinder.I disagree with the second part. Murder, Control/Support and Skillmonkey are more or less the main things you need to do in Pathfinder. The best classes are the ones that can do more than one thing, but it's still clearly a core role. I mean there are eighteen or so classes just built around that concept.
I'm also not sure I'd call pyro the DPR discipline. At low levels burning infusion is pretty solid, but later in the game I'd rather have earth/earth/aether or void/void/aether for DPR. Though void struggles with resistances just as badly as fire.
Skill monkey absolutely is a role. But it is a non-int class with 4 skills per level and a rather poor class skill list. It isnt the skill monkey. And control/support in pathfinder stems from divine or arcane casters. You dont need battlefield control to overcome challenges, but it helps. You do need someone capable of dealing with arcane magic, which a kineticist cant to. And you need someone able to remove things like negative levels, ability damage/drain and negative conditions, which the kineticist also cant do. You still need a skilled character, a divine caster, and an arcane caster in the party in addition to the kineticist to be able to face a typical adventure.
I think that part of the issue is seeing that every group has to follow the "Standard 4" party model. A well-built party does not necessarily need to follow that model. Can it make things a little more difficult by not having a "front-line", a dedicated healer, a skill/trap-monkey, or a caster? Yes, it is more difficult, but it is not impossible. I find unique parties to be much more exciting than following the "Standard 4"...
On the argument that a Kinetic Chirurgeon is pointless, I disagree. It simply takes a little investment into Use Magic Device (which is a class skill!) to be able to utilize scrolls for Lesser Restoration and Restoration. Everything else can be covered by the KC, including gaining the ability to use Breath of Life!
I think that part of the issue is seeing that every group has to follow the "Standard 4" party model. A well-built party does not necessarily need to follow that model. Can it make things a little more difficult by not having a "front-line", a dedicated healer, a skill/trap-monkey, or a caster? Yes, it is more difficult, but it is not impossible. I find unique parties to be much more exciting than following the "Standard 4"...
On the argument that a Kinetic Chirurgeon is pointless, I disagree. It simply takes a little investment into Use Magic Device (which is a class skill!) to be able to utilize scrolls for Lesser Restoration and Restoration. Everything else can be covered by the KC, including gaining the ability to use Breath of Life!
Obviously you can always 'make it work'. And many parties are flexible enough to cover for a 5th wheel character. That isnt the point though. The point is that no other class in pathfinder does this effectively automatically.
Every other pathfinder class can fufill the basic needs of one of the standard 4 right out of the box. The kineticist, doesnt do this. And it's a fundamental problem in its design.
I by no means think that every party needs to have the 4 covered explicately by one character. You can make a cleric that cant heal, or a wizard who cant identify magic and it could be a really fun campaign. My point is that every pathfinder class covers at least one of these basics naturally. And you have to CHOOSE for it not to. The kineticist must choose to cover a basic pathfinder role. And the only one it can actually cover is one that is partially counter intuitive.
And my original point was that the reason people chafe at the damage numbers, is because they feel when trying to put together a character that can contribute in a fashion other then ranged DPR they are very limited. It can happen, but it takes a lot of your choices, and ultimately doesn't do the things a first level character of every other class can do even at mid levels.
And when you are sitting there putting together a character and watching your choices be effectively automatic for months of real life play time (getting from first to say 7th or 8th level) the one thing you can actually do well (damage) you expect to be amazing. And it isn't.
I agree with Faelyn. In fact, I would go a lot further than Faelyn with it. I would say that a group not comprised on the main 4 can be MORE effective when done my a team of players that think out and plan their builds together.
The problem is that the later part of that statement tends to be something hard to ensure. The big roles comprise a way of thinking of the metagame and distilling it down to basic parts. Then instead of trying to find out what one should be doing they have a predefined set objective.
With something like Kineticist they are outside the metagame. That doesn't mean they are bad. Just different. Because their role has very little overlap and content with other classes I doubt they will cause a metagame shift on a gamewise scale. But for a certain group of players if one of them always goes Kineticist they might work out a micrometagame among their group and see a shift in how things are done taking place.
That said, Aether does seem already quite good at taking the skill monkey role and doing something inventive with it.
I'm just wondering (and this is not meant in any way as a negative; I remember following your posts and points in various threads before even working here when I was just another forum poster and respecting them Kolo): does that mean that in your conception, a zen archer monk (or gunslinger, or any ranged martial character really) would also be something that has no place in Pathfinder? I've typically found them to be highly effective teammates in 4 person groups, even while having less frontline switch-hitting capacity than a kineticist would, but if not, that's going to be useful data for me overall when thinking about ranged characters.I see... Kolokotroni has made up his mind and refuses to consider any other option. I don't know if he has any actual experience playing the kineticist, but his posts seem to indicate not. For example, the kineticist has lots of freedom, feat wise, and only has a few feats even remotely considered 'mandatory'. Namely Weapon Finesse, Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. Everything else is up in the air.When you dont get bonus feats, a non-human character is looking at 7th level before he chooses a feat in your example.
I am more then willing to consider other options. I have a strong opinion, but not one built out of ignorance, but out of trying to play kineticists in a 4 person party in a campaign that starts at 1st level.
If you play a paizo adventure (or any traditional campaign), the only thing a kineticist can be is the front liner in a 4 person party, and as mentioned, you will have difficulty the first few levels getting that done beyond what any other pathfinder class faces. That is a problem. The natural flow of the class (focusing on ranged blasts with infusions added to them) cannot fit into a 4 person party unless the other 3 party members are flexible enough to do everything without them, and they are just adding some damage to the mix.
I don't take it as a negative. I am more then willing to explain my position.
There is absolutely a place for a zen archer. The thing is, you have to choose that. A monk, out of the box, can fill most of the basic criteria of the front liner. Its not perfect, but it can stand there and punch things, and mostly be ok up front. Is it perfectly optimized? No. But it can do it.
You have to CHOOSE the archetype zen archer to take it out of that role. The foundation of abilities is still there. A archery focused ranger still has full BAB, d10 hit dice, good weapon profficiencies, 6+int skills per level with a good skill list and some interesting spells. The foundation of contributing to the classic 4 is still there. You have just made the choice to trade some of it out for something else. You take the customizable portion of the character and make it something else in addition to that foundation. But that 'stuff' that makes it contribute at least on a basic level to the classic 4 is still there. Or you are trading something significant for it with an archetype or alternate class.
The kineticist doesn't have that foundation. What should be automatic, has to come from customization choices and even then, it can't get all the way. A rogue doesn't need to pick trapfinding or get its skill points using its rogue talents. An oracle doesn't need to take a specific revelation in order to be able to cure wounds or cast restoration. These things come automatically and then you can customize on top of that. The magus doesn't need to take a particular magus arcana in order to be able to wield swords.
It sounds silly right? But that is exactly what the kineticist has to do. His customization options are what allow the class to actually start to do something besides throw damage at things. This forces the class into a very narrow direction in terms of what it is able to do compared to basically every other character class in pathfinder.
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You still need a skilled character, a divine caster, and an arcane caster in the party in addition to the kineticist to be able to face a typical adventure.
To be fair. Rogue/Wizard/Cleric/Fighter is like, the archetypal group and the kineticest probably is best suited for that latter role.
That said, I think the bigger issue isn't that you can't have a DPR role, but that Kineticists struggle a bit. They don't have the damage of a fighter or ranger or paladin or zen archer for most of the game and while they do have more utility than a fighter, it's arguable whether or not that utility is actually enough to even the odds.
Which I guess given it's sort of dilettante nature that the Kineticist works better as a fifth wheel class, providing SOME damage and SOME utility.
Only they aren't that great at that either, because an inquisitor or bard or skald can do similar things while bringing stronger utility and (at least in the latter two cases) being a really brutal force multiplier.
I guess then I partially agree with you, except that I think damage is a role and the bigger issue is that a kineticist's damage isn't always there.
Consistency is one of the main problems here. A level 1 pyrokinetic with burning infusion is doing more damage than a traditional archer at that level. A level sixteen void/void/aether has great defense and really solid at will damage and can nova with the best of them (maybe earth is better though given how often negative energy gets negated).
But the class has a lot of low points and struggles to keep up, mostly around the points full BAB classes get iteratives.
The more I think about it the more I have to say that there's really no reason the class should have its 3/4ths BAB... and composite specialization should really come online sooner.
And stuff should really scale. Given how limited a commodity wild talents are it's silly how some of them never get better despite the cost staying the same/increasing as you level up.
I guess that post turned pretty rambly.
You still need a skilled character, a divine caster, and an arcane caster in the party in addition to the kineticist to be able to face a typical adventure.To be fair. Rogue/Wizard/Cleric/Fighter is like, the archetypal group and the kineticest probably is best suited for that latter role.
That said, I think the bigger issue isn't that you can't have a DPR role, but that Kineticists struggle a bit. They don't have the damage of a fighter or ranger or paladin or zen archer for most of the game and while they do have more utility than a fighter, it's arguable whether or not that utility is actually enough to even the odds.
Which I guess given it's sort of dilettante nature that the Kineticist works better as a fifth wheel class, providing SOME damage and SOME utility.
Only they aren't that great at that either, because an inquisitor or bard or skald can do similar things while bringing stronger utility and (at least in the latter two cases) being a really brutal force multiplier.
I guess then I partially agree with you, except that I think damage is a role and the bigger issue is that a kineticist's damage isn't always there.
Consistency is one of the main problems here. A level 1 pyrokinetic with burning infusion is doing more damage than a traditional archer at that level. A level sixteen void/void/aether has great defense and really solid at will damage and can nova with the best of them (maybe earth is better though given how often negative energy gets negated).
But the class has a lot of low points and struggles to keep up, mostly around the points full BAB classes get iteratives.
The more I think about it the more I have to say that there's really no reason the class should have its 3/4ths BAB... and composite specialization should really come online sooner.
And stuff should really scale. Given how limited a commodity wild talents are it's silly how some of them never get better despite the cost staying the same/increasing as you level up.
I guess that post turned pretty rambly.
I think we more then partially agree. If the kineticist had a full bab and d10 hit die, and the elemental defences were all comparable to eachother, it would probably be a satisfactory martial character with some interesting utility on the side. You could for instance drop the touch AC attacks entirely, give it full BAB and you would have attack bonuses comparable to most martial characters (ALL of whom can add scale able bonuses to their attack right around elemental overflow). But it has 3/4 bab and a d8 hit die. Along with limited defensive and weapon options.
Think of it this way. Which 3/4 bab classes dont have, a ton of class abilities, 6 skill points per level (or are int based, or both), and 6 levels of spells. The rogue, and the monk. Which 2 classes have had probably the most disparaging things said about them in the history of pathfinder before a certain book with a lack of chains was released?
The kineticist in terms of 'stuff' it gets is like a magicish core rogue or monk. And even those can at least be a rogue, or be a guy up front punching things.
Rogue/Wizard/Cleric/Fighter isn't really a good party setup in Pathfinder though since wizards kind of make rogues obsolete. Really as long as you have an arcane full caster and a divine full caster you can put whatever else you want in the party and not have too much trouble.
Rogue/Wizard/Cleric/Fighter isn't really a good party setup in Pathfinder though since wizards kind of make rogues obsolete. Really as long as you have an arcane full caster and a divine full caster you can put whatever else you want in the party and not have too much trouble.
While in theory craft that is true. If you are playing at an actual table with an actual dm, who will say, not look kindly upon you spending 5 minutes a day adventuring, thats not completely true. Most adventures still call for someone to be skilled, with story relevant events requiring different skill checks to succeed. And while you can technically get away without having someone who can disable magical traps, I can think of tons of paizo adventures (as well as adventures from other sources) where it would have been a serious drain on resources if no one was able to manage it.
Rogue/Wizard/Cleric/Fighter isn't really a good party setup in Pathfinder though since wizards kind of make rogues obsolete. Really as long as you have an arcane full caster and a divine full caster you can put whatever else you want in the party and not have too much trouble.
I think that Telekineticist/Wizard/Cleric/Fighter is going to be in really good shape compared to Rogue/Wizard/Cleric/Fighter in most situations. The main time they wouldn't be is in a situation with a magical trap that they really want to make sure they disarm, rather than set off remotely while nobody is in range (I guess because it alerts someone you're there?). Since upthread social skills were mentioned for the roguey character, it could be an overwhelming soul tele with disable device from a trait; this would be worse at defense than going Con and using burn, but should be outperforming at social (especially with greater skilled kineticist, but also because you're bound to have more Cha than the rogue), scouting/sneaking (at-will invisibility), disabling or setting off traps from a safe distance (telekinetic finesse to do stuff at range) and the like. I wouldn't recommend it for every party (or even for every kineticist, since I tend to prefer classic to overwhelming soul unless I'm going big on Charisma), but I think it compares pretty favorably to a rogue if we're talking core four as roles, even with face included in rogue.