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Dear Development Team:
The lack of a sign language option in a setting that otherwise celebrates diversity is something that I've found just baffling. I know that in home games I could have deaf characters that sign, but I play and GM PFS. I'm a fan of deaf culture and the beauty of its language of sign. Please... may we have a sign language that anyone can learn?
I started a petition in the PFS forums requesting a PFS legal sign language, and then was told that I would be better off starting a thread in the campaign setting forum asking the developers to create an option that they can legalize. So now I'm here.
Developers, can you help us out? I know about Drow Sign Language, Flail Snail and the rudimentary signal code of Pathfinder Sign. None of those are currently PFS legal Sign Language options.
However, Pathfinder sign could change and grow, particularly if somewhere in Absalom there was a school for the deaf. For those who comment that Pathfinder Sign is just a set of tactical signals, keep in mind that is how American Sign Language started... It was a rudimentary set of signals that was used for convenience in schools for the deaf, and then bloomed as its first native speakers (deaf children) embraced it, enriched it, and made it their own.
Thank you for listening to my humble petition.
Hmm
I have one question, however. What's the rationale behind deaf adventurers? Even when compared to blindness (Which also has quite a wide array of ways around it, even if they aren't always readily available), deafness has no functional workaround.
And blind/deaf adventurers generally end up making for dead ones, considering all the general things that adventurers have to keep their eyes/ears ready for, as otherwise they can easily fall into deadly situations. (Plus, having a deaf character in a random PFS scenario would end up with said member being unable to communicate with the rest of the party quickly enough if the rest of the party doesn't have Sign Language, and if it's only one other PC that has it, having a relay for everything might just end up bogging things down)
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Because deaf people aren't as incapable as you seem to think? Contrary to popular belief, many deaf people are able to drive, and in fact they are many times safer drivers than those of us who can hear. They don't listen to music, they don't have other things distracting them, and they are better trained to use their EYES so they will still see that ambulance coming up behind them, more than likely before you even hear it with your music blaring.
Second, deaf oracles. There is actually a class in the game that looks at the possibility of a character being deaf.
Some reference information on deaf people and driving.
In fact, if you have Netflix you might check out the Freeform (formerly ABC Family) drama Switched at Birth. The show has a good look into deaf culture and has a lot of actual deaf actors (like Marlee Matlin, who is also an advisor for the show) to help make sure that their portrayal is fairly accurate.
Creative Director
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They've remained unfortunately obscure, along with several other languages I introduced in "Into the Darklands," but in that book I introduced two "non-evel" sign languages on page 3 of the book:
Canto: A relatively simple language that involves thumping and rapping; this is more or less morse code that can be communicated by thumps or flashes of lights or hand motions.
Sakvroth: A "secret language" of hand gestures, often used by creatures in the dark who use darkvision to see and want to communicate without speaking, but also one that would be used perfectly as an analog to modern sign language. (this latter one was me attempting to "rescue" the idea of "drow sign language" as being something kinda dull in flavor that was, as pointed out above, unnecessarily associated with bad guys, which is indeed quite lame).
Sakvroth is the language you're probably looking for, and it could absolutely use more representation in our games.
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I agree that sign language would be a nice addition from both a linguistic perspective (i.e. the natural evolution of one or more sign languages to facilitate communication with the deaf) and an inclusive one (which is to say deafness does not disqualify one from being heroic and going on adventures).
The complication for me comes from how that impacts gameplay, especially in the organized play campaign. It's entirely possible for PCs all learn an obscure language (e.g. Treant) and use it to communicate with one another with virtually no risk of others understanding. That said, spoken languages are nonetheless audible, making it relatively hard to hide the fact that communication of some form is occurring—or worse, hidden ambushers are coordinating their attack.
My min-maxing side notes that sign language operates via line of sight, making it easier to hide. Introducing a sign language easily taken in Pathfinder Society would also not be retroactive, meaning that 7.5 seasons of adventures would have no creatures capable of understanding anything the PCs were communicating to one another. In a home game, a GM can readily switch up an NPC's languages, but that's not really an option in the organized play campaign. What's more, comprehend languages is "blind" to sign languages, and I can see an interpretation that even tongues would struggle to understand hand signals. It's akin to PCs who specialize in combining the see in darkness ability with deeper darkness; it won't work in some encounters, but all of the others have no way to combat it.
Anecdotally, I've seen players (in organized play and in home games) all learn Drow Sign to communicate with incomprehensible impunity. Whatever we do with sign language in Golarion, I don't want it to become the tactical must-have in the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild.
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John, thank you so much for taking time to reply. Here's my position.
You can understand the spoken words of creatures or read otherwise incomprehensible written messages. The ability to read does not necessarily impart insight into the material, merely its literal meaning. The spell enables you to understand or read an unknown language, not speak or write it.
Comprehend Languages allows you to not only understand spoken language but it also allows you to "read" languages. Why not have reading include the gestures of sign? In the PFS universe, we've already altered the Valet Familiar archetype slightly. Why not a FAQ that allows Comprehend Languages and Tongues to function with sign? That would be awesome from a player perspective, actually.
I also think it would be very easy to include a PFS FAQ that allowed GMs to have any NPC on a nat 18-20 roll to be declared to have a deaf relative, and thus know sign language. (Yes, the deaf population is smaller than that, but I don't care. Deaf people tend to be somewhat more gregarious than the hearing population, right? Everyone should know them!)
I'll note that it is already possible with linguistics to pick up languages that barely any NPC knows. Outside of Bloodcove and the Mwangi Expanse, do we ever see anyone with Polyglot?
I'm not trying to game the system. As a player of a deaf character, I just want to see sign language a part of this world.
Hmm
PS James, if Sakvroth were legal, I would absolutely learn it.
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I think the counter-argument to the concerns of Sign's "tactical superiority" can be made that a sign language like this requires both hands to be free (so everyone’s got to stow/drop weapons, shields, etc.), and also requires both “speakers” (signers?) to be paying attention to each other. No signing, “Hey, pay attention!” to the guy that’s around the corner, slacking off, or otherwise has his back turned, for instance.
Ghorrin Redblade
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A ruling that comprehend languages and the like would apply to sign language seems like the easiest way to adapt it to language spells. The comprehend languages spell does specify speaking and writing, but the exclusion of sign languages is just an oversight. The description of the spell aims at that kind of intense specificity that d20 games favor in order to be exact. However, in doing so, it approaches language in a very narrow sense. Surely it would be ridiculous for a magical spell to let me understand Aklo from a gibbering mouther, but not a human language?
As a tactical tool, it has its advantages, but any players seeking that kind of tactical edge could take any number of uncommon languages to communicate without being understood. There are also a number of cheap ways to communicate quietly, from magical ones like message or quiet table, to mundane ones like whispering our passing written notes.
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Anecdotally, I've seen players (in organized play and in home games) all learn Drow Sign to communicate with incomprehensible impunity. Whatever we do with sign language in Golarion, I don't want it to become the tactical must-have in the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild.
I'm perfectly fine with that. In my home games my group has always sacrificed at least 1-2 ranks in Linguistics (or 2-4 in Speak Language in 3.5) to take Drow Sign Language and another very obscure language no one would likely know, for the specific purpose of tactical advantage. Back in 3.0 we'd dip into rogue just for innuendo.
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I guess the alternative is that deaf characters in Golarion have had EXTENSIVE speech therapy, or else went deaf after they learned to speak? It's only a serious thing for deaf oracles, since it doesn't say you have any trouble speaking, just hearing.
I do recall I read that in PFS you can spend a point of linguistics to read lips, is that still the case?
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Yes, Read Lips is a valid choice for a language in PFS.
Unfortunately, I don't see Into the Darklands listed in Additional Resources, so that can not be used in PFS.
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A deaf iconic would be great, too. And I'm all for a Committee for Promoting Sakvroth Awareness.
Jus' sayin'.
Here's me spitballing a deaf iconic:
Let's say there's a relatively high occurrence of deafness in halflings. (Or the halflings of one specific region.) Due to brutal suppression of halfling culture in Cheliax, the indigenous sign language that Deaf AND hearing halflings developed together* was forcibly eradicated. (~A la all too many real world examples, like the efforts of settler boarding schools to stamp out Native American languages.)
And now the a-hole fascist Chelaxians have another reason to denigrate halflings: for their community 'harboring' so many 'disabled' members, and also for the hearing community 'enabling' their 'handicapped' members with a 'rude' language made of 'crude gestures and twitching.' (~This is how many many hearing people in the real world have responded to the languages Deaf people created on their own, alas.)
Anyway, one deaf halfling slave gets sold down into the Underdark when her new Chelaxian master discover that she's 'useless.' She ends up a slave in a drow city, where she sees Sakvroth being used all the time. She thinks about how amazing such a language could be, for use among her kin. (Not realizing that such a language existed not that long ago, but was harshly redacted out of existence by the Thrunies.)
This slave, let's call her Zace (no last name, she's a slave), eventually escapes from the drow, of course, and makes her way back to the surface world. The caves she emerges from have brought her to Andoran, birthplace of freedom! And Zace is now ready to bring (back) a sign language for use by her kin. "What a handy (ha ha) thing this will be to teach the Bellflower Network)..." she thinks...
Paizo folks, I'm happy to write Zace up- give me a jingle!
*(See Martha's Vineyard Sign Language for a great real world example! But there are actually many other instances of such a language, i.e., one utilized by both the Deaf and the hearing organically arising in communities with a high rate of deafness.)
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I'm actually wondering if we could explore rules for creating "sign' versions of existing languages as a function of Linguistics that a deaf character (a la the Oracle) could access as a bonus language at creation, while others have to invest skill points as normal? Obviously not all languages would work for this (much in the same way not every real world language has a sign language equivalent), but instead with only some of the major languages (Taldan, Tien, Dwarven, Elven, etc.). Given the age and breadth of the societies represented by the some of the major languages on Golarion, I don't think it is at all a stretch that some formalized signed versions have been developed.
Included in these rules could be using Sense Motive or Linguistics to realize what characters are discussing when line of sight is available, which makes things a lot more backward compatible as at least one of those can be done untrained by most any creature with a mind. It'd also be a good place to formalize PFS' read lips rules for Linguistics. As with all things PFS, these particular rules for Linguistics, Sense Motive, & Languages could be House Rule'd as necessary to PFS so that they don't disrupt the balance of power too far in any given direction.
As a GM, having some structured tools to manage/world build around sign-versions of languages that existed originally as spoken word would be neat!
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Included in these rules could be using Sense Motive or Linguistics to realize what characters are discussing when line of sight is available, which makes things a lot more backward compatible as at least one of those can be done untrained by most any creature with a mind. It'd also be a good place to formalize PFS' read lips rules for Linguistics. As with all things PFS, these particular rules for Linguistics, Sense Motive, & Languages could be House Rule'd as necessary to PFS so that they don't disrupt the balance of power too far in any given direction.
I think there was actually a recent PFS scenario that involved this. Of course, the check told you the person "signing" was really speaking gibberish and was there as a misdirect, but still
Because deaf people aren't as incapable as you seem to think? Contrary to popular belief, many deaf people are able to drive, and in fact they are many times safer drivers than those of us who can hear. They don't listen to music, they don't have other things distracting them, and they are better trained to use their EYES so they will still see that ambulance coming up behind them, more than likely before you even hear it with your music blaring.
Second, deaf oracles. There is actually a class in the game that looks at the possibility of a character being deaf.
Some reference information on deaf people and driving.
In fact, if you have Netflix you might check out the Freeform (formerly ABC Family) drama Switched at Birth. The show has a good look into deaf culture and has a lot of actual deaf actors (like Marlee Matlin, who is also an advisor for the show) to help make sure that their portrayal is fairly accurate.
Thing is though Adventurers have access to magic a lot more than commoners do. One of those magics is a relatively low level spell called Remove Blindness/Deafness.
I'd sign a petition for this NOT to happen.
One of my most cringeworthy memories of Living City and Living Greyhawk was a person who insisted on playing deaf-mute monks. She basically used this as a vehicle to intentionally ignore and disrupt party plans, and claim it was "in character".
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I'd sign a petition for this NOT to happen.
One of my most cringeworthy memories of Living City and Living Greyhawk was a person who insisted on playing deaf-mute monks. She basically used this as a vehicle to intentionally ignore and disrupt party plans, and claim it was "in character".
That's not a problem with allowing sign-language in the game.
That's a problem with a disruptive and obnoxious player using the rules as an in-game excuse to be a jerk. And that player will find PLENTY of ways in the current rules anyway to be disruptive, even if we don't include sign language in the game. Heck... I've seen players like this flock to the paladin class for this specific reason—it has in-game rules that they interpret as a blank check to be disruptive.
Letting the potentiality of disruptive players dictate how the game is designed is not the right way to design a game.
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Thing is though Adventurers have access to magic a lot more than commoners do. One of those magics is a relatively low level spell called Remove Blindness/Deafness.Because deaf people aren't as incapable as you seem to think? Contrary to popular belief, many deaf people are able to drive, and in fact they are many times safer drivers than those of us who can hear. They don't listen to music, they don't have other things distracting them, and they are better trained to use their EYES so they will still see that ambulance coming up behind them, more than likely before you even hear it with your music blaring.
Second, deaf oracles. There is actually a class in the game that looks at the possibility of a character being deaf.
Some reference information on deaf people and driving.
In fact, if you have Netflix you might check out the Freeform (formerly ABC Family) drama Switched at Birth. The show has a good look into deaf culture and has a lot of actual deaf actors (like Marlee Matlin, who is also an advisor for the show) to help make sure that their portrayal is fairly accurate.
This would fix blindness/deafness caused by damage to the appropriate body parts, but it doesn't grow anything back that wasn't there. It likely wouldn't do much for someone for whom vision/hearing impairments are congenital or caused by something more pervasive (i.e. Oracle's Curse, diseases/syndromes beyond the scope of the spell, old age).
Plus, a third level spell from a cleric is (from a cost standpoint) beyond the grasp of much of the population financially. Adventurers are fairly wealthy folks in terms of liquid assets by fifth level.
And well, at the end of the day, someone may just want to role-play a blind/deaf character that isn't an Oracle. And that's fine. One of Pathfinder and Golarion's core principles is that ANYONE can be a hero. It sounds like the OP is trying to get rules to make this easier to do mechanically.
I'd sign a petition for this NOT to happen.One of my most cringeworthy memories of Living City and Living Greyhawk was a person who insisted on playing deaf-mute monks. She basically used this as a vehicle to intentionally ignore and disrupt party plans, and claim it was "in character".
This sounds like a specific player choosing to be a jerk versus a rules issue.
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Deaf characters already exist. How would giving them another means to communicate lead to a vehicle for them to intentionally ignore and disrupt party plans?
If someone wants to be disruptive, they're going to be. "I don't speak common" could happen in a home game. Or you could be a tongues oracle -- "I didn't see he was surrendering" or you can roleplay a character with a rigid moral code that doesn't allow for surrender like paladins of Torag.
I see this as opening up opportunities for both roleplay and inclusiveness. We already have ways of being secretive, using some of the less common ethnic languages, reading lips, or using message spell or feats like bonded mind.
This may sound odd, but the whole reason that oracles attracted me in the first place was not the powers, but the curse. Haunted, clouded vision, deaf -- all those allow you to still be a capable adventurer with special gifts who just happens to be differently abled. I love that Golarian is inclusive in other ways. We have a transgender iconic now. We have loving relationships of all types presented, and elves like the Ekujae that reflect a greater diversity of elvish culture and phenotype than the media as a whole usually shows.
We have a palette with so many shades with which to color a character... Would the addition of one more language really be so disruptive?
Hmm
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While these sound like good ideas, the only issue I see is that there aren't likely a lot of deaf heroes unless they choose to be deaf. Remove Deafness, cleric 3, cures even natural deafness, at least as written.
That may be out of reach for most common folk living away from a temple of a good diety, but why would a hero take the risk of being deaf when there is an easy cure. I have a mostly deaf friend that would love to hear normal again ... someone whose life may depend on hearing a creature would too, imho
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While these sound like good ideas, the only issue I see is that there aren't likely a lot of deaf heroes unless they choose to be deaf. Remove Deafness, cleric 3, cures even natural deafness, at least as written.
That may be out of reach for most common folk living away from a temple of a good diety, but why would a hero take the risk of being deaf when there is an easy cure. I have a mostly deaf friend that would love to hear normal again ... someone whose life may depend on hearing a creature would too, imho
There are a lot of people for whom being capital-D Deaf is part of their identity and community. A lot of those people wouldn't want to give that up for hearing, even if some people would.
There are a lot of people for whom being capital-D Deaf is part of their identity and community. A lot of those people wouldn't want to give that up for hearing, even if some people would.While these sound like good ideas, the only issue I see is that there aren't likely a lot of deaf heroes unless they choose to be deaf. Remove Deafness, cleric 3, cures even natural deafness, at least as written.
That may be out of reach for most common folk living away from a temple of a good diety, but why would a hero take the risk of being deaf when there is an easy cure. I have a mostly deaf friend that would love to hear normal again ... someone whose life may depend on hearing a creature would too, imho
Those are people who've grown up and lived that way. In a society modern enough to give differently-enabled people their space. People who've had sense deprivation inflicted upon them will seek out a cure if they can afford it.
Whoa whoa whoa. No.
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Thoughts:
Honestly, it's not a bad idea.
Yes, it potentially gives another secret language, but it's one that is shut down by line of sight.
You can't sign to someone around a wall, you can't sign in total darkness (unless you have darkvision).
I feel like it falls into a category similar to Psychic magic; it's different, but balanced.
Letting the potentiality of disruptive players dictate how the game is designed is not the right way to design a game.
But... isn't not utilizing this design space doing exactly that?
Disruptive players WILL ALWAYS find a way to be disruptive.
They will find some way to justify their actions, no matter what the situation (I have one at my home game).
They don't need a special tool for it; they just need faulty logic and a stubborn personality.
Taking things away from everyone for the actions of a few harms EVERYONE.
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Those are people who've grown up and lived that way. In a society modern enough to give differently-enabled people their space. People who've had sense deprivation inflicted upon them will seek out a cure if they can afford it.There are a lot of people for whom being capital-D Deaf is part of their identity and community. A lot of those people wouldn't want to give that up for hearing, even if some people would.While these sound like good ideas, the only issue I see is that there aren't likely a lot of deaf heroes unless they choose to be deaf. Remove Deafness, cleric 3, cures even natural deafness, at least as written.
That may be out of reach for most common folk living away from a temple of a good diety, but why would a hero take the risk of being deaf when there is an easy cure. I have a mostly deaf friend that would love to hear normal again ... someone whose life may depend on hearing a creature would too, imho
Maybe. You asked why a hero wouldn't seek out the ability to hear. I'm just answering your question. The ability to give or restore hearing doesn't preclude sign language and D/deafness.
I feel like it falls into a category similar to Psychic magic; it's different, but balanced.
Not feeling the similarity. You either use Psychic magic or you don't, it has different pros/cons to other casting (or mundane abilities), but you're stuck with the boat you chose. With a language, anybody who has a bonus INT language slot or skill rank can pick it up, and use it whenever advantageous to them to do so, and use another language when advantageous to do so. No balance involved.
Never mind that people are talking about opening up functions of spells etc. Well, actually alot of "language based" spells are de facto assuming auditory components, do Sign Language folk get to bypass that now? Does mute creatures who know sign language now get to activate wands? In a home game I would probably welcome this, but in PFS, it just has too much min/max exploitation potential. Of course, some folk love their min/max and will advocate for that, but AFAIK standing PFS policy is to minimize and prevent that.
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Quandary --
Deaf oracles already cast everything as if silent spell applied to it. They dont need verbal components. If you're an arcane or divine caster who is not deaf, you will still need verbal components. They still have to do somatic components, which might interfere with signing. I think the only way you could sign and cast without being deaf is to be a psychic caster.
Since there is already a way for deaf characters to cast without words... or activate wands would the existence of sign language really change things so much?
Hmm
Introducing a sign language easily taken in Pathfinder Society would also not be retroactive, meaning that 7.5 seasons of adventures would have no creatures capable of understanding anything the PCs were communicating to one another.
Run it like this: Creatures who speak the "Speakers" native spoken language can make a DC15 sense motive check to get an idea of what"s being said. More useful because opponents need to pass a check to understand what's being said, less useful because the PCs could just have taken Treant.
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This also reminds me why I still want a MUTE oracle option. I know some people think it wouldn't work, but it would. Make part of the benefits of the curse limited telepathy or something.
I've done in games before, worked fine. When she wasn't able to use her telepathy, she carried a notepad and pencil. I tried remaking the character in PF, but telepathy is sooo much past character creation than it was in the original game I made her in.
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There are a lot of people for whom being capital-D Deaf is part of their identity and community. A lot of those people wouldn't want to give that up for hearing, even if some people would.
One of my favorite shows is Switched at Birth, and what started out as a gimmick "hey let's make one of the switched girls be deaf" (They admit it) they still made sure to do it right, so now the show is a hit with it's 5th season starting later this year. Much of it's success is because of the show's success in the deaf community. I mention the show because they've had quite a few episodes about how Daphne (the 'switched' girl who is deaf) has no desire for a 'cure' whereas her best friend Emmett's father does, and that really hurts him that his father thinks being deaf is so terrible he needs to cure it (he gets a cochlear implant.)
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This also reminds me why I still want a MUTE oracle option. I know some people think it wouldn't work, but it would. Make part of the benefits of the curse limited telepathy or something.
I believe that there's the bare-bones of such a thing in Jade Regent, book...One, if I recall correctly.
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I believe that there's the bare-bones of such a thing in Jade Regent, book...One, if I recall correctly.This also reminds me why I still want a MUTE oracle option. I know some people think it wouldn't work, but it would. Make part of the benefits of the curse limited telepathy or something.
Correct. ^_^
It's custom-made for a monster with vocal powers, though, and so isn't necessarily perfect for PC use.
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I feel like it falls into a category similar to Psychic magic; it's different, but balanced.Not feeling the similarity. You either use Psychic magic or you don't, it has different pros/cons to other casting (or mundane abilities), but you're stuck with the boat you chose. With a language, anybody who has a bonus INT language slot or skill rank can pick it up, and use it whenever advantageous to them to do so, and use another language when advantageous to do so. No balance involved.
Never mind that people are talking about opening up functions of spells etc. Well, actually alot of "language based" spells are de facto assuming auditory components, do Sign Language folk get to bypass that now? Does mute creatures who know sign language now get to activate wands? In a home game I would probably welcome this, but in PFS, it just has too much min/max exploitation potential. Of course, some folk love their min/max and will advocate for that, but AFAIK standing PFS policy is to minimize and prevent that.
Mummy's Mask, book 1.
We're going up against spell casters, our cleric drops Silence, I step into the Silence and cast magic Missile.I get paralyzed by a ghoul, I cast Magic Missile anyways (purely mental action).
I later have to explain to my DM that Psychic spells are not OP because a simple intimidate shuts me down.
Considering how many scenarios simply aren't capable of dealing with that simple, third level tactic, I'd say it's a valid comparison.
Sign language; it's a silent form of communication, but requires direct line of sight.
You can communicate in pure silence, but a sheet of paper prevents you from talking to someone less than a foot from you, and you can't communicate around corners.
You need at least one hand free to sign; you can't do it if both of your hands are occupied, or if mobility to one arm is hindered (such as a grapple) and the other is occupied.
Language based spells need you to speak in the language that the recipient understands, so unless they ALSO sign, then you're s.o.l. on those.
These aren't in game mechanics, these are real life mechanics.
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I feel like it falls into a category similar to Psychic magic; it's different, but balanced.Not feeling the similarity. You either use Psychic magic or you don't, it has different pros/cons to other casting (or mundane abilities), but you're stuck with the boat you chose. With a language, anybody who has a bonus INT language slot or skill rank can pick it up, and use it whenever advantageous to them to do so, and use another language when advantageous to do so. No balance involved.
Never mind that people are talking about opening up functions of spells etc. Well, actually alot of "language based" spells are de facto assuming auditory components, do Sign Language folk get to bypass that now? Does mute creatures who know sign language now get to activate wands? In a home game I would probably welcome this, but in PFS, it just has too much min/max exploitation potential. Of course, some folk love their min/max and will advocate for that, but AFAIK standing PFS policy is to minimize and prevent that.
Except PFS still doesn't pick on true minmax? Synthesist is only powerful in low-Op games, as anyone that actually goes on full optimization will tell you that the archetype is weaker than the main Summoner on the basis that it only has half the action economy of the standard Summoner+Eidolon, even if it ends up making the Summoner somewhat sturdier. PFS 'balances' around what most people complain about, not what is actually imbalanced.
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Real life examples:
Ships at sea would fly flags that spelled out some message. Low data rate, high distance.
Towers would use a pair of flags at various angles to semaphore messages. Need a lot of towers, but can pass messages various long distances in near real time.
We got pistols, so these should both be on the table, time wise.
/cevah
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Letting the potentiality of disruptive players dictate how the game is designed is not the right way to design a game.But... isn't not utilizing this design space doing exactly that?
Disruptive players WILL ALWAYS find a way to be disruptive.
They will find some way to justify their actions, no matter what the situation (I have one at my home game).
They don't need a special tool for it; they just need faulty logic and a stubborn personality.
Taking things away from everyone for the actions of a few harms EVERYONE.
That was JJ's whole point in that post. He outright stated earlier in this thread that he'd like to see Sakvroth be promoted more heavily.
And I'd like to add my support too.
...I later have to explain to my DM that Psychic spells are not OP because a simple intimidate shuts me down.I feel like it falls into a category similar to Psychic magic; it's different, but balanced.Not feeling the similarity. You either use Psychic magic or you don't, it has different pros/cons to other casting (or mundane abilities), but you're stuck with the boat you chose. With a language, anybody who has a bonus INT language slot or skill rank can pick it up, and use it whenever advantageous to them to do so, and use another language when advantageous to do so. No balance involved.
Right, being stuck as Psychic caster is (arguably) balanced. Being able to free action decide to cast as Psychic when advantageous, or cast as Arcane, or Divine, is not balanced because you can choose to use most advantageous for given scenario, thus the net negatives are reduced/eliminated.
Sign language; You can communicate in pure silence, but a sheet of paper prevents you from talking to someone less than a foot from you, and you can't communicate around corners.
NO, a sheet of paper prevents you from talking IN SIGN LANGUAGE. It doesn't impede your ability to use your other auditory languages. As I wrote originally (as bolded), the balance problem is not with deaf/mutes "stuck" using sign language, it is with "normals" who know and use sign language AND normal languages, cherry picking which to use in differing scenarios.
What about some pheromonal/olfactory language?, or a touch based language requiring reach distance? All of those can have limitations/vulnerability which make them balanced on their own, no doubt. Being able to trivially pick up all of them is not so balanced because whenever you face a scenario impinging on vulnerability of given language, you can switch to a different sensory mode language.
Either way, it does seem like there may be semi-extensive "updates" to tangential rules sections, e.g. is Sign-Language legit for Command Words to Wands? Well what about Alarm spells with passwords? (both referencing "spoken" command words) ...I honestly can't make assessment of broader repurcussions without poring over every tangential rules bit like that, but I don't think those issues can be ignored when one is considering allowing something like this which falls between the cracks of normal game assumptions... Even if you think those assumptions are ill-advised, they nonetheless form part of the structure of the game, thus breaking them can have consequences. Which is why I said I could see inducting this sort of thing more so in a home game.
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Ok, tell me then;
What does Sign Language offer that is not accomplished by two characters who take Read Lips and mouth sentences in Shadowtongue?
Arguably, that is a FAR more potent combination.
Also, command words are usually gobblygook, specifically to prevent accidental activation
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Ok, tell me then;
What does Sign Language offer that is not accomplished by two characters who take Read Lips and mouth sentences in Shadowtongue?
Tengu can be understood in Sign Language. They have no lips to read.
I suppose someone with good bluff and perform (such as dance) might be able to pull off sign language while appearing to be doing something else, but that is a pretty extreme case. On the other hand, all they really had to do with normal language was blather about weather or perhaps politics while making a DC 15 bluff check to send a simple secret message.
Really not much difference at all.
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So this thread got me thinking that it would be really nice to get a book that focuses on the differently abled. We have lots of options for overcoming what is normally a disability but a book that provided options to make adventuring work for those who embrace how they are differently abled would be very empowering. Roll playing a disability that one has in real life shouldn't have to be something the other players see as a hindrance. Playing a wheelchair bound character should not prevent the player from getting to go down the dungeon steps. Maybe we can get a magic item similar to professor X's hover chair. Etc.
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I support it.
Even if mid to high level adventurers can often find magical remedies for deafness, it is still useful to use sign language to communicate in noisy conditions, when trying to stay stealthy quiet, or while under the effect of silence.
It should not be used as a workaround for verbal components of spells (there is silent spell for that already).
