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Mystic Madness, the author of the game is, in fact, a racist. There is a huge amount of objective evidence of this, including quotes from him personally both before and after his stint in jail. He's also an arsonist and a convicted murderer.
Saying that there's no intended racist message in the game when you're only allowed to play Nordic people and the main enemies are dark skinned, and it's written by a self acknowledged white supremacist is really strange, and frankly rather absurd. And comes off looking like you're highly racist and just trying to justify it or claim that you aren't.
Now, are you actively racist? I have no idea. It seems unlikely, actually. But please take a moment to think about who you're defending here and what that makes you come across as.
I mean, really, there are situations where it can be argued that political correctness or 'social justice warriors' or whatever go too far. I'm not at all sure I'd draw the line at the same place as you, but I freely admit and agree that it's happened. Y'know what doesn't fall into that category even a little by any reasonable person's definition? Actively racist fiction by actual racists.
And that's exactly what you're defending here.
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I feel like the best solution to "we want to be historically accurate but also welcoming" is to remember that ultimately, the point of a game is to have fun, and put a disproportionately large amount of focus into enabling people to play "uncommon" characters. Explain how such things might function historically and encourage the GM and player to work within the facts. Matriarchal societies did exist, especially in smaller or non-European communities. Female samurai were totally a thing at first before patriarchal norms caught up with them. There were a lot of non-white people in Europe, though they were obviously generally the minority (though Spain was at one point dominated, to its economic benefit, by Moors and Jewish people, by my understanding).
Despite what the "historically accurate" crowd would have people believe, there is a place for diversity in history. History is full of badass women and minorities bucking the system and becoming heroes. Hell, just 150 years after the end of the Middle Ages, Julie flipping d'Aubigny showed up, an openly bisexual opera-singing swordswoman and one of the most badass antiheroes* history's ever known. Sure, the Middle Ages were in most ways a more hostile time, but we're talking about the exceptional here—the fantastical, the people even more badass than Julie. And aren't games like Myfarog supposed to be about heroes? Supposed to be about the "exceptional"?
Historical accuracy is really rarely deployed in a context where it actually both holds up and makes sense.
*By protagonist-centered morality, anyway. She was kind of a jerk.
Indeed!
Content which takes into account the actually much more varied and diverse nature of history than most basic history textbooks would have you believe is usually also better written and researched than content that doesn't.
You have to go deep enough into the scarcer sources to research it and have a better understanding of the context of those sources.
So going the extra mile in this situation to allow people to play the characters they want to play (and to acknowledge that extra effort is necessary to improve the industry as a whole) actually pays dividends for the quality of the game and it's writing as well!
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Let's not forget the reason behind the arson (from his point of view at least, if I recall correctly the churches he burnt were part of a larger series of church burnings connected to the black metal avenge), revenge on Christianity for perceived offenses against the Nordic people long ago. A quote from one of his books:
"For each devastated graveyard, one heathen grave is avenged, for each ten churches burnt to ashes, one heathen hof is avenged, for each ten priests or freemasons assassinated, one heathen is avenged."
Or there's this nice little quote:
"Christianity was created by some decadent and degenerated Romans as a tool of oppression, in the late Roman era, and it should be treated accordingly. It is like "handcuff's" to the mind and spirit and is nothing but destructive to mankind. In fact I don't really see Christianity as a religion. It is more like a spiritual plague, a mass psychosis, and it should first and foremost be treated as a problem to be solved by the medical science. Christianity is a diagnosis. It's like Islam and the other Asian "religions" a HIV/AIDS of the spirit and mind."
He's openly supported Nazi ideology, promotes Nordicism and eugenics, and actually has am entry in the Encyclopedia of White Power.
Objectively speaking, there's no doubt the man is a racist and considers all other religious or philosophical views to be inferior. I'd be incredibly surprised if these views didn't crop up all through the game, and reviews seem to back this up.
Playing Devil's Advocate for a man like Varg Vikernes is a wasted endeavor, and I say that as someone who freely admits to being a fan of his music (though I've not heard anything released since he got out of prison). The man is a terrible person.
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Speaking as a Pagan, I'd like to note for the record that most of us are, in fact, not racist a~!%*!&s who run around burning down churches. Even among worshipers of the Norse gods (who do have this whole weird group of racists among them that the rest would really lie to disassociate themselves from), that attitude is very much in the minority.
This guy just happens to be the unfortunate exception to that particular rule.
But yeah, defending him is a pretty bad idea.
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Speaking as a Pagan, I'd like to note for the record that most of us are, in fact, not racist a@@&$~$s who run around burning down churches. Even among worshipers of the Norse gods (who do have this whole weird group of racists among them that the rest would really lie to disassociate themselves from), that attitude is very much in the minority.
This guy just happens to be the unfortunate exception to that particular rule.
But yeah, defending him is a pretty bad idea.
Sorry, I really should have stated that I don't think all Pagans are anything like Vikernes. I've got a group of friends who are Pagans and a few Norse pantheon worshipers (including one rather odd guy who doesn't understand why the others find it so strange that he says Loki is his patron god...), easily some of the nicest people I've ever met.
Just to clarify as well, Nordicism is not specifically anything to do with worshiping the Norse gods. It's a belief that the Nordic people are the superior race, and have long been the ruling class in societies (inc. ancient Mediterranean societies etc), which only fell once the Nordic elite assimilated and became part of the rest of society. Eugenics comes into it a lot due to proponents of it believing it's necessary to prevent the Nordic people from dying out due to inter-breeding.
As for the church burning... Vikernes' motivation was pretty different from the rest, it was pretty much a black metal scene thing, meaning if anything the religious motives would have been closer to the specific version of Satanism that Euronymous (easily one of the most influential people in black metal and a huge factor in how unified they were... after Vikernes murdered him the scene continued but in a much more fractured way and with less focus on Satanism), and by extension Mayhem and other black metal bands professed to believe in... though personally I think it was less religiously motivated and more due to a desire to be a real part of the scene.
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I'm going to jump to an extreme here, and I'm not claiming anyone has actually said this, but attempting to cover up the reality that bigotry exists would just as harmful as embracing it.Agreed, but isn't this thread explicitly trying to draw attention to the bigotry so it can be rejected? This thread is saying, "We shouldn't be silent about it, we should call it out." That seems to match what you're saying, doesn't it?
It's about bringing attention to a game none of us would have bought, much less heard of, otherwise.
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I don't know, doesn't that feel like the implication being made here is that a good number of Paizo forum users want to indulge in their racist tendencies, and until now had no means to do so? I'd imagine that any signal boosting on this product would come from whatever congregations there are for racists and supremacists anyway. It's like saying priests and nuns will start engaging in sexual behavior if we try to start conversations on sexuality, sexual practices, and sexual health in churches.
Does every instance of bad behavior need to be brought up and discussed? No, this is a forum, not the news channels. But for my part, I'm glad I know about this, since I peripherally know people who could get introduced to new games including this - and I already had to warn them off FATAL (and the person playing it). Knowing, if someone seriously brings up this game, the likely aspects of their personality will help them avoid getting involved with someone who is toxic, or at least keep their guard up.
You just contradicted yourself.
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(Slight tangent, I do too keep reading it as Myfrog ^w^)
And I will disagree and think the community DOES need to band together and make a statement denouncing bigotry. These games are supposed to be fun, they're supposed to be for everyone.
Trying to sweep racism under the rug and ignoring it is in fact hurting the community.
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... I didn't say it doesn't need to be brought up, as far as I can tell. My apologies for the lack of clarity. I said every instance of bad behavior doesn't need to be brought up. Someone saying something racist in school, an alcholic binge, all the bad news, etc. At no point did I mean to imply "a racist criminal creating a game system to encourage racism" was below the threshold of discussion.
Ah, my bad Cussone.
And I agree with you there, the life or action of one little jackass shouldn't have a spotlight cast on them. But when they publicize themselves and their hatred and try to infect the masses with it then that's when they get a big froggin target painted on them.
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(Slight tangent, I do too keep reading it as Myfrog ^w^)
And I will disagree and think the community DOES need to band together and make a statement denouncing bigotry. These games are supposed to be fun, they're supposed to be for everyone.
Trying to sweep racism under the rug and ignoring it is in fact hurting the community.
Thing is... the best thing to do about games like this is to simply NOT BUY THEM. And the gamers that are oriented towards things like this, will only feel emboldened by strident rage.
Thing is... the best thing to do about games like this is to simply NOT BUY THEM. And the gamers that are oriented towards things like this, will only feel emboldened by strident rage.(Slight tangent, I do too keep reading it as Myfrog ^w^)
And I will disagree and think the community DOES need to band together and make a statement denouncing bigotry. These games are supposed to be fun, they're supposed to be for everyone.
Trying to sweep racism under the rug and ignoring it is in fact hurting the community.
+1
Consider that the people who produce and consume such products are people too.Lashing out at them will only hurt them, and in their pain they will turn farther against you and strike back harder than before.
The most surefire way to ensure someone becomes a bitter racist is to call them one.
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Thing is... the best thing to do about games like this is to simply NOT BUY THEM. And the gamers that are oriented towards things like this, will only feel emboldened by strident rage.(Slight tangent, I do too keep reading it as Myfrog ^w^)
And I will disagree and think the community DOES need to band together and make a statement denouncing bigotry. These games are supposed to be fun, they're supposed to be for everyone.
Trying to sweep racism under the rug and ignoring it is in fact hurting the community.
+1
Consider that the people who produce and consume such products are people too.
Lashing out at them will only hurt them, and in their pain they will turn farther against you and strike back harder than before.
The most surefire way to ensure someone becomes a bitter racist is to call them one.
They're people, who happen to be racist.
And "Oh noes! I hurt the white supremacist's feelings of superiority by calling him out on his bigotry! How he'll tragically devolve into a miserable piece of shit that he somehow already wasn't."
I'll call someone a bitter racist because they ARE a bitter racist.
"Ignore the bullies and they'll leave you alone." DOES. NOT. WORK.
NO one here is suggesting this garbage should be bought, and thought that any publicity is good is misaligned. No one's saying "Hey! Check this out!", it's "Hey! Kill it! Kill it with fire!"
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Thing is... the best thing to do about games like this is to simply NOT BUY THEM. And the gamers that are oriented towards things like this, will only feel emboldened by strident rage.(Slight tangent, I do too keep reading it as Myfrog ^w^)
And I will disagree and think the community DOES need to band together and make a statement denouncing bigotry. These games are supposed to be fun, they're supposed to be for everyone.
Trying to sweep racism under the rug and ignoring it is in fact hurting the community.
+1
Consider that the people who produce and consume such products are people too.
Lashing out at them will only hurt them, and in their pain they will turn farther against you and strike back harder than before.
The most surefire way to ensure someone becomes a bitter racist is to call them one.They're people, who happen to be racist.
And "Oh noes! I hurt the white supremacist's feelings of superiority by calling him out on his bigotry! How he'll tragically devolve into a miserable piece of s&&* that he somehow already wasn't."
Which accomplishes....what?
Great, you've called him out.
You've burned any bridges by that point.
You've made it impossible to sway that individual over to your side.
You've given him more reason to be racist; as a backlash to YOU SPECIFICALLY, now another object of hate.
Calling out people only promotes more hatred.
Education and compassion are the tools to fight ignorance.
Yeah, the thing with hate mongers e everywhere, is all they want is conflict, their whole lives are spent seeking out or creating conflict.
I do agree, in this instance, the best thing to do is ignore it, it's just another way for the a%@%~@! to pick a fight.
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(Slight tangent, I do too keep reading it as Myfrog ^w^)
And I will disagree and think the community DOES need to band together and make a statement denouncing bigotry. These games are supposed to be fun, they're supposed to be for everyone.
Trying to sweep racism under the rug and ignoring it is in fact hurting the community.
The problem is... these days denunciation is cheap. We've become a culture where denunciations rain down for the most trivial reasons... and again, you're talking about a small niche game in a small niche market. Myafarog is simply not worth my time compared to other more meaningful battlefronts. It's a company that's so small and corner that bringing it attention of this kind can only help it's sales... by bringing it to the attention of gamers that DO share it's mentality.
I've come to the conclusion that progress is furthered more by positive actions then by adding to the negative clamor. And in this case, positive actions mean that instead of adding more to the insult and badger mill, we're better served by taking our buisness to companies like Paizo who have openly stated that they make content to promote diversity and openness.
The bottom line is that in a capitalist economy there is no weapon that's more effective than the wisely spent dollar.
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Bigoted loon writes book.
Film at 11.
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(Slight tangent, I do too keep reading it as Myfrog ^w^)
And I will disagree and think the community DOES need to band together and make a statement denouncing bigotry. These games are supposed to be fun, they're supposed to be for everyone.
Trying to sweep racism under the rug and ignoring it is in fact hurting the community.
The problem is... these days denunciation is cheap. We've become a culture where denunciations rain down for the most trivial reasons... and again, you're talking about a small niche game in a small niche market. Myafarog is simply not worth my time compared to other more meaningful battlefronts. It's a company that's so small and corner that bringing it attention of this kind can only help it's sales... by bringing it to the attention of gamers that DO share it's mentality.
I've come to the conclusion that progress is furthered more by positive actions then by adding to the negative clamor. And in this case, positive actions mean that instead of adding more to the insult and badger mill, we're better served by taking our buisness to companies like Paizo who have openly stated that they make content to promote diversity and openness.
The bottom line is that in a capitalist economy there is no weapon that's more effective than the wisely spent dollar.
And I agree for the most part. But here's the thing.
If the white supremacists go out and get the book huzzah for them, they've publicly outed themselves. They're not worth saving or interacting with in a meaningful way.
But if a teenager or a kid whose still developing their outlook on life walks into a store or a friends house and sees a book with a cool cover and starts to read it without really knowing what they're getting into... yeah.
Put down bigotry.
There's a difference between not giving something the attention it wants, and ignoring it and pretending it doesn't exist.
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(Slight tangent, I do too keep reading it as Myfrog ^w^)
And I will disagree and think the community DOES need to band together and make a statement denouncing bigotry. These games are supposed to be fun, they're supposed to be for everyone.
Trying to sweep racism under the rug and ignoring it is in fact hurting the community.
The problem is... these days denunciation is cheap. We've become a culture where denunciations rain down for the most trivial reasons... and again, you're talking about a small niche game in a small niche market. Myafarog is simply not worth my time compared to other more meaningful battlefronts. It's a company that's so small and corner that bringing it attention of this kind can only help it's sales... by bringing it to the attention of gamers that DO share it's mentality.
I've come to the conclusion that progress is furthered more by positive actions then by adding to the negative clamor. And in this case, positive actions mean that instead of adding more to the insult and badger mill, we're better served by taking our buisness to companies like Paizo who have openly stated that they make content to promote diversity and openness.
The bottom line is that in a capitalist economy there is no weapon that's more effective than the wisely spent dollar.
what was the greatest trick the devil ever played again?
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There's a difference between not giving something the attention it wants, and ignoring it and pretending it doesn't exist.
a hair that can be microscopically fine in many places.
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They're people, who happen to be racist.
And "Oh noes! I hurt the white supremacist's feelings of superiority by calling him out on his bigotry! How he'll tragically devolve into a miserable piece of s*#* that he somehow already wasn't."
I'll call someone a bitter racist because they ARE a bitter racist.
"Ignore the bullies and they'll leave you alone." DOES. NOT. WORK.
NO one here is suggesting this garbage should be bought, and thought that any publicity is good is misaligned. No one's saying "Hey! Check this out!", it's "Hey! Kill it! Kill it with fire!"
I'm perfectly willing to call him a racist. I don't care about hurting his feelings.
I also don't see any need to feed him any more attention than he's already got. Or frankly any way to "kill it with fire", short of actually killing him, which is way beyond the pale.Respond proportionally. If this was a major gaming company, I'd be all in. Even if it was one of the larger indy companies, sure. They've got reputation to lose and business outside of this one game.
There's no advantage in raising a big stink about this.
How big or how little does one have to be before you respond proportionally?
I have no idea how big his operation is, but he's gotten his book published and is selling it. That's a lot bigger than most.
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I've actually had to deal with this on a more personal venue.
Orson Scott Card has written some of my favorite stories, including series such as the Worthing Chronicle.
And I've also learned that the man is an extreme right wing homo and xenophobe nutcase.
Do I condemm the work for the man? Or do I take contentment that since I bought the books second hand, he's not getting a dime anyway?
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I've actually had to deal with this on a more personal venue.
Orson Scott Card has written some of my favorite stories, including series such as the Worthing Chronicle.
And I've also learned that the man is an extreme right wing homo and xenophobe nutcase.
Do I condemm the work for the man? Or do I take contentment that since I bought the books second hand, he's not getting a dime anyway?
Having only read his "retelling" of Hamlet I'll just have to take your word for it that those series are good and hopefully his beliefs didn't bleed too much into them.
But from reading that one story I won't absolutely nothing to do with any of his works.
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Is it in stores?
I don't think so, which renders your "some kid sees cool looking book" scenario pretty unlikely.
Near as I can tell, it's self-published, right? That just requires a little bit of money and dedication. Any crazy can self-publish anything they want. Doesn't mean they're actually making money on it or anyone outside of their immediate circles has heard of it.Again, point and laugh. Diminish it. It's a cheap imitation of FATAL that doesn't even rise to the level of "worst RPG ever". Don't build it up as a dire threat that must be stopped. He'd love to be a dire threat, rather than a laughingstock. And more people will hear of the dire threat and buy it, whether it's because they're already racist or to rebel against their parents or because the SJWs are trying to censor it.
You don't think so? I don't know. It could be. Who knows. The point is it exists and can be published and can continue to be published. It doesn't really matter if he makes money over doing what he's doing if he keeps doing it and spreading his message. Sure, treat him as a laughingstock. Just don't ignore something until it becomes a problem.
FYI, Wizard of Oz was self published.
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Is it in stores?
I don't think so, which renders your "some kid sees cool looking book" scenario pretty unlikely.
Near as I can tell, it's self-published, right? That just requires a little bit of money and dedication. Any crazy can self-publish anything they want. Doesn't mean they're actually making money on it or anyone outside of their immediate circles has heard of it.Again, point and laugh. Diminish it. It's a cheap imitation of FATAL that doesn't even rise to the level of "worst RPG ever". Don't build it up as a dire threat that must be stopped. He'd love to be a dire threat, rather than a laughingstock. And more people will hear of the dire threat and buy it, whether it's because they're already racist or to rebel against their parents or because the SJWs are trying to censor it.
You don't think so? I don't know. It could be. Who knows. The point is it exists and can be published and can continue to be published. It doesn't really matter if he makes money over doing what he's doing if he keeps doing it and spreading his message. Sure, treat him as a laughingstock. Just don't ignore something until it becomes a problem.
FYI, Wizard of Oz was self published.
Near as I can tell, it actually wasn't, though lots of "self-publishing companies" use it as an example. George M. Hill Publishing in 1900.
Regardless, if it starts getting anywhere near that much traction, I'll agree with you. It's certainly possible for a self-published book to take off, but my point was that if you count self-publishing (or vanity press stuff for that matter) it having been published doesn't mean anything.
If it starts showing up on best-selling RPG lists, even down near the bottom or is regularly found in gaming stores or really any kind of evidence that it's at all popular, then it might be worth making a fuss.
(Huh, so it is. Damn. Where did I read that it was...)
And that's what I'm worried about. Not even showing up on Best Sellers list but just gaining traction outside of hardcore white supremacists communities.
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Mystic Madness, the author of the game is, in fact, a racist. There is a huge amount of objective evidence of this, including quotes from him personally both before and after his stint in jail. He's also an arsonist and a convicted murderer.
Saying that there's no intended racist message in the game when you're only allowed to play Nordic people and the main enemies are dark skinned, and it's written by a self acknowledged white supremacist is really strange, and frankly rather absurd. And comes off looking like you're highly racist and just trying to justify it or claim that you aren't.
Now, are you actively racist? I have no idea. It seems unlikely, actually. But please take a moment to think about who you're defending here and what that makes you come across as.
I mean, really, there are situations where it can be argued that political correctness or 'social justice warriors' or whatever go too far. I'm not at all sure I'd draw the line at the same place as you, but I freely admit and agree that it's happened. Y'know what doesn't fall into that category even a little by any reasonable person's definition? Actively racist fiction by actual racists.
And that's exactly what you're defending here.
Maybe the author has turned over a new leaf, I don't know. Did you look at the aforementioned video? It appears to be featured on the author's own website. You accuse me of defending him, but I know nothing about him. However, it seems to me that if the intended audience of the game is the die-hard racist, the author would never permit a statement that it does not matter if your character is black, white or some other race to appear on his website, as such a statement would deeply offend racist followers of the game. At the very least, the narrator of the video, who obviously plays the game, does not appear to be a racist, thus contradicting the theory that only a racist would play the game.
As far as suggesting that I am a racist, that is a common tactic to supress disagreement. Presumably, if I were such a racist, I would have likely heard of this game or its author. Prior to this thread, I had not. I will say that, as an American, I support free speech, even if the content is repulsive and not in accordance with my own views.