I'm running a game where a player is using an IdRager (and other stuff) and I'm having a lot of trouble figuring out exactly how the Atavistic Avatar works. What exactly are the "additional powers" gained when you bloodrage?
I believe that the player believes that he gets EVERYTHING that the phantom gets on the chart. Dex/Cha bonus, natural armor bonus, slam attacks, and the other abilities. I feel like there's no way that's right and would love to know what you actually get.
Page 23—An id rager gains only the emotional focus abilities of a phantom, not the base abilities of a phantom, such as slam attacks and armor bonuses.
So then, just to double check, he would only get the three focus abilities at the appropriate levels for the atavistic focus he selected?
Yeah, there might be more sometimes. For example, Hatred has 4.
Page 23—An id rager gains only the emotional focus abilities of a phantom, not the base abilities of a phantom, such as slam attacks and armor bonuses.
Also, page 23 of what? Because this is being challenged.
Page 23 of the Occult Realms book. It comes from the Clarifications document.
That is a document for PFS campaign setting, which on top says
This document supplements the Additional Resources
document, which lists all of the character options that
are legal in the Pathf inder Society Roleplaying Guild.
The list provides clarif ications for these legal options
for the purposes of the organized play campaign.
This document does not provide off icial errata for the
Pathf inder Roleplaying game as a whole
The normal rules are what's needed, because this game is adhering to RAW of pathfinder, and not society standards. Anyone help with these specifications on understanding the rules?
Well, the issue is that only applies to pfs and not our home game, and it's not a real errata. So that's problematic.
@My Self, could you clearly give your interpretation on how the archetype works, please?
DESIGNERS HAVE COME OUT AND SAID THAT'S HOW IT IS INTENDED TO WORK.
Pretending that's just meant to affect PFS is disingenuous.
If someone wants to shield behind the fact that Paizo errata policy prevents them from clarifying the archetype because it was in a Player Companion, let them suit themselves.
But if you care about errata, you care about what the designers say and you care about that document.
The creator of the Archetype said what PFS later copied into their document, which has been quoted above. You just get the things in the emotional focus descriptions. You don't gain any slam attacks, so many focus are less good because you don't have a slam attack to work with them.
@Secret Wizard, just to make it clear, I pointed out verbatim what the document says it has authority over. In our game we agreed to anything in paizo publishing. Unless our GM wants to go with the designers follow up, I will advocate for the player to get whatever they're entitled to with how the rules are written (including official errata that effects pathfinder in general), which sadly I believe doesn't happen for companion books.
Interpretations on how it's written in origins are still appreciated. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems the archetype would only get things like the Hatred ability, and the feat it gives if you are under bloodrage, otherwise you don't have those on your character, right? Also, you wouldn't be able to qualify for things that needed them suck as like slashing grace (needs weapon finesse) because you don't actually have the feat, but get it as a result of bloodrage?
We are getting to a murky area, but I have read devs saying that if you play a 12 STR Barbarian, you can get Power Attack but only use it as long as you rage since it gets you past the 13 STR mark.
It would be sensible, for example, to grant a Brawler the ability to take Two-Weapon Feint as though they had Two-Weapon Fighting all the time, even if Brawler's Flurry says they have Two-Weapon Fighting only when making a type of full attack.
@Secret Wizard, just to make it clear, I pointed out verbatim what the document says it has authority over. In our game we agreed to anything in paizo publishing.
And a bathroom is called "bath" room but you still realize you are meant to poop in the toilet because you can tell by its design that it was meant to carry residues. Likewise, I can tell that this document is the only way for PAIZO STAFF IN AN OFFICIAL CAPACITY to issue errata over PC and CS documents.
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Likewise, I can tell that this document is the only way for PAIZO STAFF IN AN OFFICIAL CAPACITY to issue errata over PC and CS documents.
Can you please stop putting this into every thread that you post in? It's your opinion, but the people who wrote the document have stated that the document is not what you say it is. It also does nothing but bait people in to arguing with you. It doesn't help with the discussion of things at all.
I hate to add this to the debate, but he's trying to argue that the opening line where it says "an id rager chooses one emotional focus to define his core" means that he gets the focus. Just all the time, and that this gives him the feat that the focus gives the phantom at all times as well as other things at all times.
Can I have other people please confirm that the only thing that the first line of id rager does is establish which emotional focus your upcoming abilities will be based off.
Can you please stop putting this into every thread that you post in? It's your opinion, but the people who wrote the document have stated that the document is not what you say it is. It also does nothing but bait people in to arguing with you. It doesn't help with the discussion of things at all.
Feel free to disqualify my argument, I'll welcome the time when you actually try to dispute its bases.
Can I have other people please confirm that the only thing that the first line of id rager does is establish which emotional focus your upcoming abilities will be based off.
Nobody can except the designer because the archetype was edited as s!@%. You have to take his word for it.
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When the id rager enters a bloodrage, he gains additional powers as if he were a phantom (Pathfinder RPG Occult Adventures 78) with the emotional focus he selected as his atavistic focus. He is considered to be both a phantom and a spiritualist for the purposes of abilities whose effect references both a phantom and a spiritualist, such as a dedication phantom’s dutiful strike, and treats his bloodrager level as both his spiritualist level and his phantom Hit Dice when determining abilities and save DCs. This ability does not allow the id rager to become incorporeal.
it says it right there, he only gets the EF abilities while raging.
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Can you please stop putting this into every thread that you post in? It's your opinion, but the people who wrote the document have stated that the document is not what you say it is. It also does nothing but bait people in to arguing with you. It doesn't help with the discussion of things at all.
Feel free to disqualify my argument, I'll welcome the time when you actually try to dispute its bases.
I'll do it right now. @Secret Wizard, please provide the burden of proof that this is absolutely the only official capacity for paizo staff to issue errata. You write that you can tell, so is this a gut feeling, or is there something published?
I'm not trying to be a jerk, and you issued a challenge for someone to dispute, so here it is. Please don't continue to derail the thread with this argument unless you have the answer. I have provided the exact text where they specify what the errata affects and doesn't which is published, whereas you have no other proof than saying you can tell. Also, designers and such posting on the forums doesn't change the official rules such as in PFS, but it does offer a guideline to help when things are ambiguous and go into table variation. Errata or FAQ is what's necessary for rules.
But just so you're aware, thank you for providing the detailed information and that download link. It was very helpful.
@rysky I attempted multiple times to point this out, but I seemingly need more proof that picking the emotional focus doesn't GIVE you the full emotional focus all the time, including the bonus feat the the phantom gets and other stuff.
I hate that I have to post this because I'm aware that it's wildly incorrect, but apparently I need back up in saying that not only is that interpretation wrong, but that part of the class feature is clearly you choosing the focus that your later abilities will be based off and doesn't give you the emotional focus as it applies to phantoms.
So, he wants the pie, and the cake.
My argument is based upon the fact that there was absolutely no necessity to modify a lot of things - for example, "fixing" the Spellscar Drifter to become a usable archetype by allowing it to deal challenge bonus with a firearm was not a necessity for PFS.
They did so anyway.
There are posts of the developer saying that he'd have wanted it changed.
Paizo does not reprint Player Companions or Campaign Settings books.
Paizo only issues errata when they reprint a book.
Paizo compiled a set of fixes for features of Player Companions and Campaign Settings books in the PFS Clarifications Document, even if they didn't have to - sure, you can point at things like the Horse Master change, which is a patch for something that otherwise does not work in PFS, but there's things that certainly did not need that type of fix and yet they issued one.
Ergo, I think it is completely sensible to consider that this is a tool Paizo has chose to use to be able to issue something remotely similar to an errata for things they cannot otherwise modify.
You can call this circumstantial. I call it the most possible explanation.
Plus, "official games" and PFS are literally the same thing. if some non-logistical change (as opposed to logistical, organizational changes like Crafting rules or banning archetypes that deal with mutilation) is applied, it is assumed that it was intended to work that way.
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*pinches nose*
It's been spelled out in the class itself, an errata document, and by two developers. And yet your player stills wants to whine and argue against all that and that you the GM believe contrary to the player.
This isn't a RaW vs RaI issue, this is your player being an entitled argumentative b%+$$.
Put your foot down.
Honestly, errata discussion aside, your player is being a jerk. Ban the archetype.
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@Secret Wizard, just to make it clear, I pointed out verbatim what the document says it has authority over. In our game we agreed to anything in paizo publishing. Unless our GM wants to go with the designers follow up, I will advocate for the player to get whatever they're entitled to with how the rules are written (including official errata that effects pathfinder in general), which sadly I believe doesn't happen for companion books.
The developer's follow up says "This is not errata or a FAQ, just how I read the ability." So the verbatim itself doesn't change: this is just the developer explaining how to read it, e.g., that skills and saves do not count as "abilities" and that you must have a slam attack in order for any of the abilities that effect the slam attack.
That entire clarification is an interpretation, but it's an interpretation by an expert in the field. Your GM may still decide to rule it differently, but most people here will default to the developer's interpretation as "RAW".
You get the emotional focus powers, not the phantom powers. Phantoms are what get all the boosts. Emotional focuses are listed and all the things pertaining to them are in little blocks.
@rysky I attempted multiple times to point this out, but I seemingly need more proof that picking the emotional focus doesn't GIVE you the full emotional focus all the time, including the bonus feat the the phantom gets and other stuff.
I hate that I have to post this because I'm aware that it's wildly incorrect, but apparently I need back up in saying that not only is that interpretation wrong, but that part of the class feature is clearly you choosing the focus that your later abilities will be based off and doesn't give you the emotional focus as it applies to phantoms.
You're the GM. Your job is to make the final ruling when things are unclear. You've even shown him clear evidence of the game designers' intent of the rule. Grow a spine and put your foot down on this one. If the player doesn't relent, then he's just being a jerk and the interpretation of the archetype is the least of your worries.
Say he can either use it the correct way or we can pretend it works his way, in which case it'll be banned for being broken. His choice