Make somebody who is far more powerful than them force them to work together and works towards a common goal. Otherwise he destroys them. Then the campaign is all about going through, obeying this big powerful figure and achieving all his desire while subtly trying to learn his weaknesses. The end-game fight is against him.
Just an idea.
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
CE PCs can be done okay, but working with CE players is a bad idea.
Don't allow CE players.
CE can be a bit of a doozy to deal with, as they are freed from any laws/moral structure in their actions.
It really depends on what their characters 'want': do they want power? do they want to conquer the world?
They could stage a coup, overthrow a benign organisation, take over an evil organisation, steal artifacts of power that are helpful to the land around and put them to their own nefarious ends. Heists could work.
That kind of thing.
If they have no goals: pirates? do they want to become bandit lords terrorizing the area?
It's a bit harder to channel them into a coherent plot when they're evil and crazy. Maybe try reading some anti-hero style novels for inspiration :P
Ask the players if they want to complete the plot or if they'd prefer to continue the way they're going. If that would give away the game too much and you don't want to force them, put a great big lure on top of the plot - rumors of an artifact, or of a means of divine ascension or something. No, you don't necessarily need to pay up on the rumors.
Okay.... first of all how the hell is the paladin CE? Second why does it matter if they do evil things? It's a game you aren't here to moralize if they want to kill innocent people, and word gets out that they did there will be consequences, and that's it. They shouldn't need to justify actions.
Now if it is making you uncomfortable, or if they are actively derailing the game, then you have a legitimate issue. If their actions are affecting you emotionally, think of what actions they are performing that make you uncomfortable. It's reasonable to say 'no rape guys k?'. It's significantly less reasonable to demand they all be lawful stupid. I'm using extreme positions here but you get the idea.
Now if they are actively derailing the game, this really isn't about alignment at all really, and someone else would give better advice on that point.
Why are they ignoring the plot? If the players are deliberatly ignoring the plot you have to talk to them and either abandon the game, come up with a new plot or convince them that you the GM have developed a plot and it would be nice of them to pay some attention to it as you can only develop so much game material.
If the problem is that the characters have no interest in the plot (CE characters and save the princess because its the right thing to do for instance) then change the plot , for example have them paid to rescue the princess (and reduce the loot they would have found along the way by the amount of the reward for game balance but the characters will not know that)
Have a chat with them to figure out why they're wanting to break the guidelines/plot outline you're setting down.
Have you GMed for them previously?
I've got a party I'm trying to run stuff for- Swashbuckler, Samurai, Paladin, Slayer, and Barbarian. However, all the players are CE- with the exception of the Samurai player. A plot that was supposed to happen went off the rails, then took a dive off the off-the-rails area. They're having fun, but it's difficult to keep up with them and I'd also like to complete the plot. They're all nice guys in person and I'd prefer to keep this game going, but in the game they're ruthless, a touch insane, and really good at justifying why their actions aren't evil.
Any help here?
Some examples would be helpful.
We don't allow evil alignments unless its one of the rare times we are playing a specifically tailored evil campaign.
In standard campaigns the only available alignments are LG, NG, CG, LN, TN, CN. Then again most of us prefer heroic games/characters, so its basically a non-issue.
|
Well, considering that you meant "CE characters", not the "CE players", here is few steps to sort out.
a) Considering that you allowed them to play evil-aligned characters, the joke is upon you completely. Evil-aligned characters are chaotic, selfish, brutal and very hard to guide in general. They couldn't care less about events happening around them and if players are new, there is a high probability that they are perceiving them in most radical way possible.
- How to solve this? Make sure that you did indeed have a proper talk with them. Whether they are evil or not, there should be proper amount of teamwork, trust and expectations. If they stomp these social guidelines, then you'll have a very selfish game.
b) Players will always take the random road that you don't expect them to take. This is almost a universal rule regardless if they are evil or not.
- How to solve this? Instead of creating a story that you want them to follow, create a starting point only and allow the players to explain the rest of it through their game play. This doesn't mean that you shouldn't have several events planned out and ready on stand-by though.
c) Learn to adapt and design story and world around them. This is probably the most hardest part, but also most rewarding.
- How to solve this? Whether PCs react to story or not, the world has to continue to unfold, right? If they ignore the villain who is about to murder a noble family, let them, but the same villain might continue to pursue them as they are potential eyewitnesses in the murder crime. If they are murdering innocent people or robbing them, let them, the bounty will rise against them eventually. Crime isn't tolerated in Lawful countries that easily. Make sure to give PCs enough freedom just until things start to escalate.
d) Don't bother with CR and guidelines too much.
- How to solve this? If players provoke a noble or lord of the land by going completely of the rails into something you haven't predicted, put them against difficult or impossible challenge if necessary. The biggest challenge of foolhardy, arrogant and selfish characters is to survive long enough to speak about it. If you are however designing a dungeon or specific story-based encounters, make sure they are within their CR range as normal. Variable CR range of your opponents will keep PCs on their toes.
e) Play dirty if necessary. Bad guys couldn't care less what PCs need or alternatively, good guys might corner PCs into an impossible decision. Use these tactics sparingly though otherwise your players might become very displeased by the rough game play.
- How to solve this? An example of playing dirty would include for example: a villain using Bestow Curse on PCs and teleporting away; poisons being found in food; sundering potions, wands, scrolls or items in general on AoO; hit and run tactics which waste party's resources; loss of gear in general; NPCs that mislead or use the party for their own benefit; etc.
That's at least few advices that I can offer,
Adam
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The OP has made it clear he doesn't mean CE characters:
It's not CE characters- it's CE players.
Presumably most of them have committed at least one murder, which must be an unnerving thing to discover at a gaming table. Without knowing the GM's alignment, it's hard to advise. I'm guessing he doesn't want to kill them - is handing them over to the rightful authorities an option?
Or am I being too literal?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Have you told them to stop.
Cause, you know, problem solved!
I think of player alignment as:
Good: Cooperates with GM
Evil: Defies GM
Lawful: Plays by-the-book
Chaotic: Works outside and around the rules
OK. My definitions for player alignment were:
Lawful: Respects the GMs authority.Chaotic: Enjoys subverting the GMs authority.
Good: Wants the game to be fun for everyone.
Evil: Enjoys hurting, oppressing, and killing others, either for convenience, or in the active pursuit of evil, for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.
So I guess there may have been some confusion.
The suggestion I would give for dealing with players who consistently refuse to cooperate with the plot is just to allow the events the antagonists had planned to continue unabated until the players decide to abate them. I don't know about your campaign, but in my campaigns generally the antagonists have some sort of agenda they are attempting to accomplish, and the players have to uncover it, and thwart it. If they are unable to uncover it, they are (probably) unable to thwart it.
So if the PCs keep killing NPCs when they probably shouldn't, as those NPCs are supposed to give them important information, just allow the antagonist scheme to continue to the next stage with the PCs lacking that information then give them another opportunity to figure out what's going on. If they repeatedly refuse to cooperate with the plot, you could just have the campaign conclude with the necromancer taking over the kingdom, or whatever. If you can set it up where the bad guys win a narrative victory, and the nominally good PCs end up being blamed for it, or suspected to have been in league with the bad guys all along, that can be good fodder for a continuing story.
After all, stopping the bad guys after the bad guys already did what they set out to do is probably the only way to prove that you weren't working with them, and is going to be a lot harder to do than stopping them earlier would have been. If they decide to just move because their homeland is now ruled by the undead, they might find themselves antagonized by those in their new base of operations that see them as the vanguard of the growing tide of evil. If these players are, in fact, "really good at justifying their actions" having them being suspected by the "good guys" as actually being the "bad guys" might be right up their alley.
Remember you're not punishing the players if you have the other people in the game world respond in a sensible and consistent manner to the actions of the PCs, and to attempt to pursue ends they are capable of achieving which they perceive as beneficial or in keeping with their personalities and ideals. That's more or less how you're supposed to do it.
|
Bear in mind, there are also other options for getting information to the players if you desire. Captives who overheard the villains plans, written notes or maps about what they were planning to do, a lackey who trades the information for his life, etc.
If you think the characters are behaving entirely outside their written alignments, talk to the players and let them know what you see as problems, they may not even realise or they may agree and you can discuss fixing things or even possibly changing alignment to match their behaviour.
If, however, by your definition, they are 'defying the GM' and 'working outside the rules' you need to sit everyone down and let them know that if you're going to keep running things have to change, cheating and ignoring the GM is always going to lead to you not having fun.
It isn't like its impossible to run with CE characters- typically, I would need some overarching system that keeps them on track.
I usually prefer something like family ties- the evil character is a relative of a good/neutral one, so they 'play nice' and keep the murder to the shadows so that they don't hurt their relative. Cause even evil people can love their family.
Other things would be 'honor'/'power' (going with the samurai- he is the head of a fallen house, and the rest are his relatives who had to survive on their own for years- they now have a chance to bring their house back into power). That means that, while they are evil, they might want to hide that and play along so they don't look bad, because they have a vested interest in the quest succeeding.
Overall, you need to have something from the very inception of the campaign that ties the evil character's interests into the quest. They can chaff under the chains of the plot and try to tests the bounds of it... but ultimately, they would want to keep the chains on for their own benefit.
ultimately, it comes from the prep work that should glue the pieces together. And that glue should be further sealed by a shared understanding between the players and GM, built upon mutual respect and shared understanding of the goals here. That latter bit is the most important- so you don't just have people setting fire to EVERY house, because "it is my alignment"- no, it should be purpose driven, where they set fire to the house that has the magical artifact, and that fire helps to mask the theft.
It reads as though you have a fairly linear plot written from the perspective of the players and that the players are not following it [for whatever reason]. It also seems as though you haven't thought through the consequences of the PCs actions if they do not follow the plot.
Repeating some of the advice that has already been given. May I suggest you take a little time to consider the antagonist's plan with the PCs out of the equation and consider what the antagonist's contingencies would be if the authorities/church/random bunch of heroes intervened at various points in the antagonist's plan.
Also consider how the various [presumably] good aligned factions are likely to respond to the antagonist's plan, again with the PCs out of the equation. If their action is to request the assistance of some adventuring group are they just going to sit back and wait or are they going to want to know how the group are progressing?
Also, reading your post it sounds as though the PCs are killing anything that moves. What are the state's laws concerning the players' actions? If laws have been broken how do the state investigate and track down the suspects? In the case of the Paladin, how do his actions reflect against his church's beliefs and his order's code. Is the Paladin allowed to summarily kill anyone who pings his Detect Evil sense or do they actually have to have committed a crime worthy of the death sentence?
Once you have thought these things through you will be in a much better position to respond to the PCs actions in game and let them 'enjoy' the consequences of their actions. This will allow you to side-step the players justifying that their actions are not evil, as you can reply by stating 'to this group it looks like this and they are responding accordingly' - actually you don't need to have the conversation, just enact the consequence. It should also help you care less about arriving at a pre-defined plot goal and instead you can enjoy the story as it unfolds.
Try this one. Let them hear rumors about a treasure (of whatever type) that draws them in, but dont allow them to actually defeat the BBEG at the end...you know. The one holding the treasure they have been after.
It is frustrating, and will have them wanting revenge against the guy that got away with their stuff! In this way you have shown them a solid defeat without anyone loosing their favorite character. You will see them unite FAST!
Feeling bullet proof is a fast way to encourage the players to prove to the DM just how much they can get away with.
All of this being said however:
You have previously stated they are having fun. They are nice guys. If they are derailing your campaign, either speak with them openly about it and ask for their thoughts on how to get things back on track or simply run some pre-fab modules for them and let them have a good time and running amok.
I'd also point out that if your paladin is acting in a decidedly "un-paladin" way, schedule a VERY dramatic moment where he is acting like a bone head (killed someone, raped someone, left someone to die, etc) and have him go all Anakin / Darth Vader. My favorite was a player of mine decided to have his Paladin kill off a noble who he knew for a fact had been mind controlled, instead of trying to save the noble. In the end he ran the guy through the chest with his sword....and the sword slowly turned black as it drew out the mans soul and the paladin was filled with rage as he became an Anti-Paladin and wanted justice and vengeance on those who had wronged him.
Just some random thoughts on things.
Interesting point on my anti-paladin story. The player thought the whole scene was so damn cool he didn't even challenge the conversion of the character! He unfortunately moved away a few weeks later and the anti-paladin remained as a campaign villain.
I've got a party I'm trying to run stuff for- Swashbuckler, Samurai, Paladin, Slayer, and Barbarian. However, all the players are CE- with the exception of the Samurai player. A plot that was supposed to happen went off the rails, then took a dive off the off-the-rails area. They're having fun, but it's difficult to keep up with them and I'd also like to complete the plot. They're all nice guys in person and I'd prefer to keep this game going, but in the game they're ruthless, a touch insane, and really good at justifying why their actions aren't evil.
Any help here?
Their characters likely have motivations beyond killing people. I would work those into the plot.
Staying alive is one reason to stay on task so using something that is a threat to them may work.
It's not CE characters- it's CE players.CE can be a bit of a doozy to deal with, as they are freed from any laws/moral structure in their actions.
It really depends on what their characters 'want': do they want power? do they want to conquer the world?
They could stage a coup, overthrow a benign organisation, take over an evil organisation, steal artifacts of power that are helpful to the land around and put them to their own nefarious ends. Heists could work.
That kind of thing.
If they have no goals: pirates? do they want to become bandit lords terrorizing the area?
It's a bit harder to channel them into a coherent plot when they're evil and crazy. Maybe try reading some anti-hero style novels for inspiration :P
This.
Chaotic Evil doesn't always translate into a bloodthirsty maniac bent on killing everyone and everything. But it's usually portrayed that way.
Now for bloodthirsty players however...
I've got a party I'm trying to run stuff for- Swashbuckler, Samurai, Paladin, Slayer, and Barbarian. However, all the players are CE- with the exception of the Samurai player. A plot that was supposed to happen went off the rails, then took a dive off the off-the-rails area. They're having fun, but it's difficult to keep up with them and I'd also like to complete the plot. They're all nice guys in person and I'd prefer to keep this game going, but in the game they're ruthless, a touch insane, and really good at justifying why their actions aren't evil.
Any help here?
1) Being able to rationalize an evil act doesn't make it not an evil act. In fact, rationalizing an evil act as "okay" is a sign of an evil (or at least non-good) alignment.
Hitler thought everything he was doing was justified, righteous and for the good of his country - it doesn't make the holocaust any less evil.
Unless you are hand-waving the code of conduct for the paladin (which exists in part as a check against the fact that the class is particularly powerful), that's your call. Otherwise that Paladin really should have fallen.
2) Players generally have a "Gaming Alignment" in my experience, whereby they like to behave, as players, in a particular fashion. CE players are generally; Contrary, anti-authoritarian, outright destructive to plot and generally avoid anything that even vaguely resembles heroism.
Past experience is that they tend to go for the quickest and easiest route to cash/reward, avoiding hardships like dungeon crawls and boss fights in favor of mugging, theft, murder, betrayal and skipping town whenever things get tough - such as a BBEG showing up in the neighborhood and actually looking intimidating.
3) My advice? Throw away the old plot. Improvise for them, let them run around causing mayhem, and arrange for them to achieve something big and flashy - taking over a town/city, conquering a dungeon and having the remaining minions bowing down in fealty to their new overlord. Wrap up the game there and thank them for the hijinks.
Then run a new game with a requirement/challenge that they play actually heroic character. With their old party as the BBEGs.
Edit: Also, a lot of players start off acting like bloodthirsty CE lunatics. If these are new players, they may grow out of it. If they've been doing this for a while... not so much.