But there is lots of technology in Golarion! You just need to be in the right part of the kitchen sink!
But even then the tech is hoarded by the greedy evil wizards! Damn them!
Perhaps the very act of using magic damages the brain in such a way as to limit imagination; while a modern, mundane person could envision myriad technological uses for magical effects, those who can funnel such power through their frail physical forms wind up burning the neurological structures which enable creativity.
Hence why all wizards eventually resort to casting magic missile at the darkness...
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Say a wizard does this, what happens? He makes a lot of money. What happens to people with a lot of money in fantasy role playing games? A bunch of murderhobos comes along and kills them for that loot.
PC's: doing their best to keep campaign worlds stuck in the dark ages since 1974.
Wait... Are we the baddies?
According to the book, spellcasting services cost 5gp per cantrip.
That's the point QuidEst made earlier; my magical laundry service is competing against the fact that someone can hire a maid-of-all-work for 3sp per day, or a Muggle hand laundry that will clean items of clothing at 3cp each (both of which are also in the book).
I was imagining the idea that, with a flooded market with cantrip users, the standard maid might HAVE to have prestidigitation to get hired, and that spell casting would be part of the 3 sp per day.
Of course, the idea of flooded supply is something with a non-broken economy system that has little to no reason to get reformed since the parts people play with work well enough for gameplay purposes.
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I was imagining the idea that, with a flooded market with cantrip users, the standard maid might HAVE to have prestidigitation to get hired, and that spell casting would be part of the 3 sp per day.According to the book, spellcasting services cost 5gp per cantrip.
That's the point QuidEst made earlier; my magical laundry service is competing against the fact that someone can hire a maid-of-all-work for 3sp per day, or a Muggle hand laundry that will clean items of clothing at 3cp each (both of which are also in the book).
Perhaps, except I can't imagine the market being sufficiently flooded with cantrip users that someone would accept 3 sp/day for that particular skill.
The Pathfinder economic model is broken beyond imagination, of course, and there's never actually been an RPG that had a decent (non-broken) economic model. (I'd actually argue that the PF model is better than most, which only shows how bad things generally are.)
But the basics of the model since Gygax -- some of the very fundamentals -- include the idea that magic is expensive (to create a needed cash sink). This implies that there's a reason that magic is expensive. Furthermore, this expense can't be easily manipulated by creating more supply, or people would have done it already.
There are three reasons that make the most sense to me:
1) Magic is rare for some physical reason (like why astatine is rare). This also fits well with traditional fantasy fiction and the idea of the Talent, which is why I brought it up.
2) Magic is rare because some supernatural force wants to keep it that way. Just like Norgerber doesn't like having his picture drawn (and will take actions to keep that from happening), Nethys doesn't want the world flooded with cheap cantrip knockoffs, and Bad Things will happen to you if you try this. Most people don't like activist god very much, but YMMV.
3) Magic is rare because wheels-on-luggage. The PCs just happen to be the first to think of this, and now the world is forever changed. The PCs have achieved wealth and power beyond the dreams of avarice and now everyone gets to roll up a new character for Ted's campaign because this one is over.
That is if you survive said encounters ;-)Even if anyone can theoretically become a wizard, it still requires years of training.Well, yes, and no. Mostly no. I can become a wizard in eleven level-appropriate encounters over the course of two days, simply by choosing to become a wizard when I level up.
This is surprisingly easy to game, actually.
Presenting, for your pleasure, Orfamay Quest's Wizarding Academy. Guaranteed to make you a wizard in seven days, or your money back!
As a level 2 wizard (with PC wealth), I am a CR 2 encounter. Once you've paid your tuition, we face each other, mano-a-mano, in a boxing ring delivering punches at each other. If you are able to beat me, you get 600 experience points; beat me four times and you've gained enough xp to take that wizarding level. Given the fact that I'm a wizard, with no strength to speak of, no useful BAB or feats, and a set of useless spells for the day, you should have no problem beating me four times out of seven days.
... especially since, even if you lose, the damage I inflict is all non-lethal, so it will be healed in six hours or so. So we can have one bout before breakfast, another at lunch, and another in the evening -- and there's a good chance you'll be a wizard before tomorrow's lunch.
The CR system assumes an even playing field (ie no situational advantages) and that the combatant is doing everything in their power to win. So, you are 2nd level PC so you begin as a CR 1. As a wizard forgoing magic that will reduce your CR to 1/2 to 1/4. That you are using fisticuffs instead of the simple weapons you are proficient with should reduce it to 1/4 to 1/6. Really 1/8th is the real answer because you are purposely setting the environment to pose no actual danger. So you are at about 50 XP per bout. Making it 40 fights before they level.
Assuming the GM accepts that sparring matches = infinite XP.
That is if you survive said encounters ;-)Even if anyone can theoretically become a wizard, it still requires years of training.Well, yes, and no. Mostly no. I can become a wizard in eleven level-appropriate encounters over the course of two days, simply by choosing to become a wizard when I level up.
This is surprisingly easy to game, actually.
Presenting, for your pleasure, Orfamay Quest's Wizarding Academy. Guaranteed to make you a wizard in seven days, or your money back!
As a level 2 wizard (with PC wealth), I am a CR 2 encounter. Once you've paid your tuition, we face each other, mano-a-mano, in a boxing ring delivering punches at each other. If you are able to beat me, you get 600 experience points; beat me four times and you've gained enough xp to take that wizarding level. Given the fact that I'm a wizard, with no strength to speak of, no useful BAB or feats, and a set of useless spells for the day, you should have no problem beating me four times out of seven days.
... especially since, even if you lose, the damage I inflict is all non-lethal, so it will be healed in six hours or so. So we can have one bout before breakfast, another at lunch, and another in the evening -- and there's a good chance you'll be a wizard before tomorrow's lunch.
I did something like this once.
This was 1st edition, no less. I had my high level wizard make a clone of himself. Then I dragged the clone into my own personal arena, woke him up, and dueled him. Of course, I had my spells and magic items and he had neither - he just woke up from being cloned with no time to prepare any spells and I didn't give him any gear. A dagger, I think, to be sporting, but nothing serious.
Of course I killed him, and then I got XP for killing a high level wizard. Lots of XP.
I did it over and over and over and over. When I was through, I was 100th level. I figured that was high enough so I stopped.
My GM couldn't think of a reason for this to not work, so I got to have my 100th level wizard.
Of course, we were kids so it made sense to us at the time...
I'm apparently confused. Is this a discussion on how to start a wizard-sourced industrial revolution, or how to ensure it doesn't occur?
I'm apparently confused. Is this a discussion on how to start a wizard-sourced industrial revolution, or how to ensure it doesn't occur?
Well, the thread title is "How do you keep a fantasy setting from a technological explosion?" And the OP closes with "Now, suppose you wanted to keep the tech level stable, AND have wizards. For that, you would need some counterbalance to magic, something that would slow down the progress of society back to normal levels. What do you think that might be?"
So I would assume the latter, but that's only because I have reading comprehension skills.
Easy. Simply say it doesn't. Sulfur, charcoal and potassium nitrate creates an inert substance on this world instead of gunpowder.
Lamp oil burns but other oils cannot be made combustible enough to create explosions.
Sickness and illness actually are from unbalanced humors and possession by spirits of disease not viruses or bacteria.
Electricity works as itself (lightning bolts etc) but does not combine with metals and designs to produce force from machines.
Take the key things that allow modern technology and eliminate or alter them at a fundamental level to say it simply does not work that way in the world your running. Hence why there is MAGIC.
Also, with not technological processes working, NO ONE would ever invent the items that would require those processes to exist.
Just like no one in our world heals with lay on hands no one in THAT world would invent the light bulb.
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Easy. Simply say it doesn't. Sulfur, charcoal and potassium nitrate creates an inert substance on this world instead of gunpowder.
That doesn't address the question, though. It's not a question of whether technology can substitute for magic, but whether magic can substitute for technology. A machine that casts prestidigitation 1/day is a dishwasher, irrespective of whether or not phosphorus-based "detergent" works in this world. A carpet of flying 140 feet long is an airplane irrespective of Bernoulli's principle. A potion of cure disease will treat the pox regardless of whether Penicillium rubens exists or not.
Seeing as it took 10s of thousands of year maybe longer to get the point of the industrial revolution for us and we can clearly see our ancestors had great leaps in science only to be lost and rediscovered again and again. So why would a fantasy setting do any better? Sure magic but with magic it's like playing with nukes. For every good magic does magic would also undo. It's power and power corrupts. Slap a bunch of mythical monsters into the world and clearly that would be why progress is never really made.
Seeing as it took 10s of thousands of year maybe longer to get the point of the industrial revolution for us and we can clearly see our ancestors had great leaps in science only to be lost and rediscovered again and again.
That's a common myth that has little to do with actual history.
No one in this world has invented gunpowder. Who knows whether that's because "sulfur, charcoal and potassium nitrate creates an inert substance" or just because no one's tried it yet. Doesn't matter. A PC isn't going to try it, unless he's relying on metagame knowledge, so it's not going to come up.
Except this isn't true. Fireworks are a thing (they're on the equipment list), just as they were known to the ancient Chinese.
Someone was the first to pack black powder into a tube and use the pressure to launch a heavy object at someone they didn't like. Or if no one was that person yet, then someone will be.
Easy. Simply say it doesn't. Sulfur, charcoal and potassium nitrate creates an inert substance on this world instead of gunpowder.
Lamp oil burns but other oils cannot be made combustible enough to create explosions.
Sickness and illness actually are from unbalanced humors and possession by spirits of disease not viruses or bacteria.
Electricity works as itself (lightning bolts etc) but does not combine with metals and designs to produce force from machines.
Take the key things that allow modern technology and eliminate or alter them at a fundamental level to say it simply does not work that way in the world your running. Hence why there is MAGIC.
Also, with not technological processes working, NO ONE would ever invent the items that would require those processes to exist.
Just like no one in our world heals with lay on hands no one in THAT world would invent the light bulb.
eh I feel this sort of overly thought out solution just raises more questions; changing fundamental physical properties of objects influences other aspects of physics and biology, and can open up even bigger logic holes than Why X setting lack Y.
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Wait, what's this about gunpowder not working?
Has anyone told the all Gunslingers about this little bit of bad news?
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Easy. Simply say it doesn't. Sulfur, charcoal and potassium nitrate creates an inert substance on this world instead of gunpowder.
Lamp oil burns but other oils cannot be made combustible enough to create explosions.
Sickness and illness actually are from unbalanced humors and possession by spirits of disease not viruses or bacteria.
Electricity works as itself (lightning bolts etc) but does not combine with metals and designs to produce force from machines.
Take the key things that allow modern technology and eliminate or alter them at a fundamental level to say it simply does not work that way in the world your running. Hence why there is MAGIC.
Also, with not technological processes working, NO ONE would ever invent the items that would require those processes to exist.
Just like no one in our world heals with lay on hands no one in THAT world would invent the light bulb.
That just brings up more questions than it answers. I know a couple of people who, if their GM told something like that to them, would rather abandon whatever quest they were on and instead explore the physics of this particularily weird universe. Saying "oil can burn but not explode, no matter what you do with it" is worse than "sorry, I can't allow you to make a bomb, that would wreck every plan I had for this adventure and I can't come up with new ones on the spot" in pretty much every situation.
As for "no one in our world heals with lay on hands":sure they do, it just doesn't work. Google "Faith healing".
Perhaps, except I can't imagine the market being sufficiently flooded with cantrip users that someone would accept 3 sp/day for that particular skill.I was imagining the idea that, with a flooded market with cantrip users, the standard maid might HAVE to have prestidigitation to get hired, and that spell casting would be part of the 3 sp per day.According to the book, spellcasting services cost 5gp per cantrip.
That's the point QuidEst made earlier; my magical laundry service is competing against the fact that someone can hire a maid-of-all-work for 3sp per day, or a Muggle hand laundry that will clean items of clothing at 3cp each (both of which are also in the book).
Well yes- prestidigitation does allow you to handle things much more easily, doing more work that those without such a spell, which should be valued. I would imagine that you could take a mansion that needs 10 servants to maintain, and reduce taht to 1, giving 10x the wages at 3 gp (...or 5 times at 1gp 5 sp, because trying to get a good deal).
Still, that is a much better value than 1 gp for just a single specific use of the prestidigitation spell (cleaning your clothes- once). So it would be a huge price drop.
I'm apparently confused. Is this a discussion on how to start a wizard-sourced industrial revolution, or how to ensure it doesn't occur?
Well, the thread is about 'what stops such a revolution'. The answer 'magic is terrible to use on an industrial scale.' See how much resistance my suggestion of widespread use of cantrips is? If we can't get a good sized population doing level 0 spells, how can we expect to get enough people with power to do anything actually important (and lasting) would be?
I'll admit that the thread might be losing focus though.
You're getting the resistance for obvious reasons: The question is "what stops such a revolution?". Since you responded "Lots of people with cantrips will make it happen faster", the obvious response it "don't let that happen then". And since the rules don't mandate it, it's a perfectly good response.
If we were talking about how to spark such a revolution and you'd made that suggestion, I'd expect little resistance.
...you do know that the masses of people with cantrips are the ones in the DEEP background? As in, the nameless, faceless masses that are only mentioned when you have a set piece (like 'look, all the people in this big festival! its wonderful!' or 'look, all the people being murdered by orcs at this big festival! its horrible!').
These people are not things to 'balance' in game terms- they are literally less than air as far as the game is concerned. I am just looking at this in the bigger picture past the game mechanics.
This discussion was largely set off with a high level wizard mass producing iron with one type of spell- discussing how just getting such material from thin air would provide material for an industrial revolution. I just applied the same logic- what effects would simple cantrips have on a more realistic society. As players we write it off since the effects are usually tiny compared to a CR20 uber god fiend lich... but looking at what actually occurs, it would have amazing effects if put into an actual dynamic system where people live, rather than the strange strange world of adventurer game logic (lets be honest- player characters usually act like machines than people half the time- no need for basic creature comforts when they don't gives any +'s)
The main reason why this game doesn't have an industrial revolution is 'its a game'. The 'people are not people'. No one has clever little ideas to improve the educational system- they aren't real, or even present in story sicne the story focus never goes to them. Even if they did advance things, it would be done when the next campaign starts with the base setting. We all know this. Saying 'don't let it happens' means little. I am having a discussion about "'what if you applied real life principles to the game mechanics, with people whose goals are not 'reach level 20'".
I only went for 'tons of people with cantrips' since 'move from single, highly skilled masters to easily replicated processes used by laymen' is pretty much the entire point of the industrial revolution. It was one of the driving factors. If you can't get your effects replicated without getting ahold of a level 12 master with decades of experience, then you can't have much of a proper revolution. You just get one city focused on manufacture, which eventually just becomes a minor novelty in the grand scheme things. I aimed for cantrips because aiming low is easier for this goal of 'something you can train a lot of people to do'.
Geb is amongst the world's leading agricultural producers because it uses undead laborers.)
Correction. Geb is a massive agricultural exporter because it uses undead laborers, and because a huge portion of its population DOESN'T NEED TO EAT.
We don't know anything about the efficiency of its farms. Given that skeletons and zombies have Int 0 and can't make Profession (farmer) or Aid Another checks, it's probably pretty horrible relative to any other farmer out there.
But if you don't have to pay or feed your laborers, EVERYTHING is surplus. That's the reason they export.
===Aelryinth
Easy. Simply say it doesn't. Sulfur, charcoal and potassium nitrate creates an inert substance on this world instead of gunpowder.
Lamp oil burns but other oils cannot be made combustible enough to create explosions.
Sickness and illness actually are from unbalanced humors and possession by spirits of disease not viruses or bacteria.
Electricity works as itself (lightning bolts etc) but does not combine with metals and designs to produce force from machines.
Take the key things that allow modern technology and eliminate or alter them at a fundamental level to say it simply does not work that way in the world your running. Hence why there is MAGIC.
Also, with not technological processes working, NO ONE would ever invent the items that would require those processes to exist.
Just like no one in our world heals with lay on hands no one in THAT world would invent the light bulb.
That just brings up more questions than it answers. I know a couple of people who, if their GM told something like that to them, would rather abandon whatever quest they were on and instead explore the physics of this particularily weird universe. Saying "oil can burn but not explode, no matter what you do with it" is worse than "sorry, I can't allow you to make a bomb, that would wreck every plan I had for this adventure and I can't come up with new ones on the spot" in pretty much every situation.
As for "no one in our world heals with lay on hands":sure they do, it just doesn't work. Google "Faith healing".
And if that is what they want to do -- abandon the quests before them to explore the physics of the world -- more power to them. We can revisit them now and again as they work in their little cottage in some village trying to puzzle out why things don't work while the rest of the party adventures. Unless, of course, the party and GM want to delve into the whys of the world and why certain things don't work.
Sort of like people on our Earth do when trying to determine why faith healing isn't working.
As for Golarion, perhaps it would have worked if they hadn't killed Aroden. Humanity was on the cusp of all these discoveries and BANG, they killed the God of Humanity! Coincidence? I think not.
Geb is amongst the world's leading agricultural producers because it uses undead laborers.)Correction. Geb is a massive agricultural exporter because it uses undead laborers, and because a huge portion of its population DOESN'T NEED TO EAT.
We don't know anything about the efficiency of its farms. Given that skeletons and zombies have Int 0 and can't make Profession (farmer) or Aid Another checks, it's probably pretty horrible relative to any other farmer out there.
But if you don't have to pay or feed your laborers, EVERYTHING is surplus. That's the reason they export.
===Aelryinth
Fair, fair. They do have to feed the people that said portion of the population does eat, but that still leaves plenty of surplus.
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Overall answer: The Industrial Revolution happened because of a few key advances in society, brought about by one key idea - information got out and was shared.
In magical societies, information sharing is expensive, and they use magic to back it up. Guns would develop much faster if Arkenstar opened up shops in every major city and spread the technology around. They don't do that. They keep it all close to home, and everyone outside the nation is basically reinventing the wheel, trying to catch up to where Alkenstar is at.
And if they get close, Alkenstar kills them.
Technology doesn't advance in huge leaps...typically there's a breakthrough, and then hundreds of little advancements along the way. making a useful gasoline powered engine is one thing...now think of how many billions of manhours have been spent by millions of very smart engineers the world over to improve little things on those engines, and how many other advances in metallurgy, math, chemistry, electrical engineering, materials, and suchlike were also required for each and every tiny advance in engine technology getting the car engines and jet turbines that we have today.
It's a LOT of time, money, and brainpower. It requires massive investment by society, especially educating EVERYONE possible in the right kind of knowledge.
If you have an uneducated society, without that background in STEM, things will NEVER proliferate.
It is INCREDIBLY easy to cut a technological explosion short by removing one or two key people who a) invent and b) are willing to share. This leaves behind people who can't invent and aren't willing to share what they already know, because that would mean they are outdating themselves, and they will fight 'new' tech tooth and nail not to be assigned to the scrap heap (a very, very VERY common problem in the older days).
To this, you add the uneducated commoners who will also be displaced by high tech...and if you can't educate them and turn them into something productive, they'll get extremely violent about the matter. There's a phrase for this right out of Industrial History - the Luddites.
In the module where you head to the Moon, it's noted that, among others, the succubi there seduced and captured a great astronomer and inventor of optics whose devices were revolutionizing things. Pffft gone to the Abyss. Attentive outsiders who can see technology and recognize the ripple effects it can have can EASILY act to forestall such a revolution by removing one or two key elements before the process takes off, or simply directing the research down unproductive, impossible areas.
The fact there might well be a long-lived perceptive force acting against the spread of technology shouldn't come as a surprise to ANYONE. And the massive investments required to launch the explosion means it is much easier to STOP the revolution from ever starting, then it is to get it going.
================
So, here are rules you can use to stop an Industrial Revolution:
1) Spontaneous Combustion is a thing. That which is most flammable is most likely to explode. This is the entire principle that alchemical fire is based on.
So, incendiary explosives tend to blow up...a lot. massive quantities of flammable materials tend to attract large quantities of fire Elemental energy, if not Elementals themselves. Results, predictable.
As a result, whole branches of chemistry are not pursued because they tend to blow up on you! This would definitely include anything petroleum-based, or dealing with chemical explosives.
2) Electricity doesn't always follow the path of least resistance.
This completely shuts down electrical engineering and a lot of mechanical innovation. You can't form a power source for your machinery and control it without use of magic.
3) Non-natural materials tend to degrade, decay and go unstable.
This would prevent virtually the entire chemical industry and mass production related to it. FOr instance, 'paper' wouldn't exist, as the acid-treated pressed wood pulp would rapidly decay to uselessness. Processes that are largely mechanical or chemical in origin, without even the partial magic of Alchemy involved, would lose their 'natural soul' and be under constant attack from the very existence of magic, breaking apart quickly and rendered useless.
Only processes that are done by hand, with the touch and power of the living, use of magic, or connection with Alchemy, would endure.
4) Outsiders with Luddite agendas are constantly on the lookout for minor inventions which could lead to breakthroughs that would advance ALL of technology/science, and act to forestall them. This could involve buying out the invention and burying it (still used today); killing the maker and quietly removing knowledge of the tech (also used); minimizing acceptance of the device so it quietly fades away into irrelevancy; and similar tactics.
In the end, you get a world where it is difficult to raise the tech level, due to subtle and cunning interference from knowledgeable entities, and effectively active resistance from magic itself. Otherwise, magic or alchemy, a 'living touch' must be involved in the process, making technology that stands alone nearly impossible to accomplish.
The only significant advancements you would be able to make would be in purely mechanical stuff, but you'd run into problems with information exchange, producing the required amount of metal, and power source problems that didn't involve magic.
---------------
If you are talking about 'modern tech' using magic, and how the game isn't set up for it, remember that 'magitech' wasn't possible under the 1E rules.
Why? Because makiing permanent magic items permanently cost you a Point of Con (no getting it back).
Thus, the number of magic items a person could make were very, very limited over their lifetime. Literally, making magic items was LIFE INTENSIVE to the casters involved.
They loosened such strings remarkably in later editions, but the premise still remained.
basically, making magic items for others takes time and money that a caster could be using to do other things. Those other things are likely tons more profitable. As a result, making society-wide 'low magic' devices is likely to simply NOT be something any Caster competent enough to do the work wants to have to do.
The other factor is how freaking much money it costs for magitech.
Magitech is huge sunk costs. Look at a Sword +1. Masterwork sword AND 1000 gp in material components. 1300 gp, gone, you can't get it back. Can't use it for anything but sticking in an enemy. 1300 gp buys a LOT of stuff.
And General Conquero wants 1000 of these things! Which sucks 1.3 million gp out of the economy, keeps me employed making them for 3 years, occupies a lot of smiths making masterwork swords and neither of us are making more useful things while we do this.
Too, there's the brainpower argument as well.
In the normal world, smart people can go out there, build a better mousetrap, and make a lot of money.
In a magical world, smart people can go out and LEARN MAGIC, which lets you FLY, among other things. The idea of self-improvement over societal improvement is far more motivating to most people, and so engineers designing the next, better set of drainage locks aren't nearly as common as those who just want to make 5th level wizard!
Lastly, without a broad public school system finding those with high ability scores among the masses, giving them the training and education to achieve their potential, nothing will rise to scale. The wealthy and the nobility whose taxes would pay for such will resist mightily paying for the education of commoners, and in a magical world, that can be lethal. They simply don't want to create their own competition and pay for their own downfall. Yet without all these educated minds capable of making all the zillions of tiny improvements to tech over time, and demanding more/better/faster with zeal to innovate and put the achievements of yesterday on the trash heap, we would not be where we are today...and its a lot harder to DO that in a magical world.
A complex topic, to be sure.
==Aelryinth
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Everyone has heard of GURPS, right? The default GURPS fantasy world is an 'alternate Earth', where people from normal earth get pulled over all the time, so they have a fairly good idea of what tech is capable of.
Firearms and gunpowder have been invented numerous times there, and soldiers with guns get pulled across, too.
When such things happen, the local mages and clerics get together and mercilessly wipe them out and any trace of that technology. Heh!
==Aelryinth
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For inhibiting non-Magitech technological development, here are a couple of ideas:
1. Specific to firearms and explosives: If macroscopic creatures can learn to use magic, why not microorganisms? Specifically, a certain type of inconspicuous but fairly common mold has evolved (or been engineered) to make a living eating high-energy compounds even in concentrated and normally highly toxic form, and has also evolved (or been engineered) to go ethereal/incorporeal to get through things like gun cartridge casings. Moreover, once it consumes enough of the explosive that it runs out of some critical nutrient, it sporulates and then detonates the remaining explosive to provide the energy for dispersing its (highly fire-resistant) spores.
2. Specific to technology using fire: The planet's atmosphere is denser than that of Earth, but does not have proportionally more oxygen, so fires are harder to start and burn with less heat, thus impairing both metallurgy and heat engine efficiency. Conveniently, the denser atmosphere also helps larger creatures fly.
3. Specific to electric technology: The planet's sun has really nasty solar flares frequently, which generate enough geomagnetic currents to wreck electrical systems. Think Solar Storm of 1859 happening several times per decade, and March 1989 Geomagnetic Storm occurring on average every few weeks, while the once-in-500-years events are like divine wrath.
As the old saying goes: "Necessity is the mother of invention." When you have magic to help you, there's less need to find a technological solution.
Especially when all the geniuses who should be inventing ways to use electricity are busy being wizards because, hey, genius = superpowers, who gives a shit about the damn oil?
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Probably some pretty cool dude.
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Overall answer: The Industrial Revolution happened because of a few key advances in society, brought about by one key idea - informationgot out andwas shared.
Essentially correct. More precisely, information was shared widely - something that is expensive for magic in D&D/PF, not so much for technology - which is what is really being looked at. Understand that I agree with all of your essentials, just have a thought or two on your points.
First, while technology doesn't advance in huge leaps, it does have key ideas. Linking the steam engine to something that makes use of the work it's doing is one; the ancient Egyptians and daVinci were both familiar with the principles, but didn't hook steam pressure to something that did work (move a belt, or a wheel, or whatever) with it. Another key idea is the reusable mold: do that, and you can make an assembly line (a third key idea), and suddenly you have a creation that is repeatable. Even better, make a mold of the mold, and after a day or two of time and material investment, you can suddenly start making things en masse.
Incremental improvements are fine - they're what get us from the Model T to the Formula 1 - but the key ideas still need to be discovered, such as the blasting cap for firearms. Once that key idea comes about, 50 years later you have fully automatic weapons.
However, the key to the revolution is the sharing of information - in essence, writing it down in more than one or two copies. Your apprentices or workers have it ... and/or you set up a manufactory in another city as well. Or your competition steals it (instead of blows it up.) Literacy is that key. And you are absolutely right about the violent suppression of that sort of thing.
Your points about stopping the Industrial Revolution are pretty spot-on - of course, you want standard physics to work 'Earth normal', but then you also want magic - so of course things get screwed up. As a consequence, all of the reasons for #1-3 - Combustion issues, electrical issues, degredation issues - become 'the reason for that is magic'. Remove magic from the equasion - or have someone whose innate magic capability (or part of it) is channelled into removing magic from the equasion - and you wind up with technology, even modern (or futuristic) technology, capable of existing. The base philosophy here is that 'in an anti-magic field, technology works as it does on Earth.'
You would thus not need magic (necessarily) to 'make' electricity follow the path of least resistance; you 'simply' need to remove magic from the area, and electricity will automatically do that. (That magic is most often needed to do that is an irony not lost on me - or in-world philosophers, presumably.) If magic is there, however, it may (and sometimes does) cause a 'spontaneous combustion' event in gasoline vapors, a sudden rapid increase in boiler pressure, improved combustion of a particular gunpowder charge, or temporarily improve a significantly worse electrical path.
Your Luddite Outsider conspiracy, of course, makes me shiver with delight, of course. ;)
Everything else you argue, Aelryinth, is exactly on par with my views. Kudos.
Guns in GURPS are ridiculously powerful and pretty realistic. Don't ever mix bullets and blades, because bullets always win. Well, until you run out.Everyone has heard of GURPS, right? The default GURPS fantasy world is an 'alternate Earth', where people from normal earth get pulled over all the time, so they have a fairly good idea of what tech is capable of.
Firearms and gunpowder have been invented numerous times there, and soldiers with guns get pulled across, too.
When such things happen, the local mages and clerics get together and mercilessly wipe them out and any trace of that technology. Heh!
==Aelryinth
GURPS is awesome. It amuses me when people complain that Pathfinder is rocket tag. Try a few games of GURPS and you will come back with a new appreciation for the resilience of PCs in Pathfinder.
For inhibiting non-Magitech technological development, here are a couple of ideas:
1. Specific to firearms and explosives: If macroscopic creatures can learn to use magic, why not microorganisms? Specifically, a certain type of inconspicuous but fairly common mold has evolved (or been engineered) to make a living eating high-energy compounds even in concentrated and normally highly toxic form, and has also evolved (or been engineered) to go ethereal/incorporeal to get through things like gun cartridge casings. Moreover, once it consumes enough of the explosive that it runs out of some critical nutrient, it sporulates and then detonates the remaining explosive to provide the energy for dispersing its (highly fire-resistant) spores.
2. Specific to technology using fire: The planet's atmosphere is denser than that of Earth, but does not have proportionally more oxygen, so fires are harder to start and burn with less heat, thus impairing both metallurgy and heat engine efficiency. Conveniently, the denser atmosphere also helps larger creatures fly.
3. Specific to electric technology: The planet's sun has really nasty solar flares frequently, which generate enough geomagnetic currents to wreck electrical systems. Think Solar Storm of 1859 happening several times per decade, and March 1989 Geomagnetic Storm occurring on average every few weeks, while the once-in-500-years events are like divine wrath.
Magical plagues are scary. I like it.
A lot of good responses here, though for some reason some people misunderstood the original question. It isn't "Why shouldn't this be a problem", it is "Suppose a player asked a question like this, and you don't want to tell them to metaphorically f~~& off" sort of question. I understand that with handwaving you can explain pretty much anything, but, in my opinion, it should be used sparingly.
Wyrm,
I write a post-apocalypse storyline where all of the above rules are in effect, except the Luddite conspiracy doesn't work, because the technology is known, it just doesn't work after the coming of magic.
And yeah, tech WILL work again, if you remove magic from the area entirely. Unfortunately, if that tech hits magic again, the reaction is both faster and more explosive if it becomes active (to the point where bullets and ammunition being taken out of a-m field to load into a magic gun will start detonating before they can be fired, or a rocket fired out of a field will explode before it can hit the target). There's also the fact A-M fields are small, cost 30,000 gp each to make, AND 30 days to make. That's a lot of gold and time to be used for something basically used to store ammunition in.
Of course, there's 'white magic' fields, too, where the field of magic is thin and pure and doesn't take to being shaped, so no spellcasting! magic items work fine, however...Which means if you're a non-casting magic item maker, you're styling.
:)
Little things. Trying to rebuild a magitech society out of a tech society isn't as easy as it seems. The amount of gold alone is terrifying. And without the 'magical component industry' that is assumed to exist in a normal campaign, once that gold is used up, it's simply gone forever...
==Aelryinth
One big point--do mages know how the natural world works?
Yes. Wizards have all craft and all knowledge skills as class skills.
One big point--do mages know how the natural world works?Yes. Wizards have all craft and all knowledge skills as class skills.
Which means they only know what the knowledge skills can give them, limited on how much effort they put into learning those skills. And a limit by the knowledge itself. 20 ranks in Heal won't give you 21st century knowledge. 20 ranks in Knowledge Nature/Geography won't give you what Landsaat gives NASA and the Geological Survey.
That's a far far cry from omniscience.
Actually, 20 ranks might. We don't know since nobody alive has ever gotten above 6. Maybe Google Maps is equal to 20 ranks?
The more typical 3-5 Ranks won't.
Neither will a +50 modifier to the check. There's a big difference between topical terrain mapping and actually knowing what's on the landscape.
==Aelryinth