So this spell has been used twice in my last 2 session's. The party came into a room and there was a Demon Succubus and a Demon Nalfeshnee.
The barbarian was immediately hit by the Demon Nalfeshnee, but the the next round the cleric just walks up behind him, no AoO since the Barbarian gives him partial cover.
He cast Protection From Evil on the Barbarian. All of sudden the Demon can't hit him.
Also, the other Demon can't cast anything like Dominate Person on him.
Because according to #2 from the Spell
Second, the subject immediately receives another saving throw (if one was allowed to begin with) against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects, such as charm person, command, and dominate person). This saving throw is made with a +2 morale bonus, using the same DC as the original effect. If successful, such effects are suppressed for the duration of this spell. The effects resume when the duration of this spell expires. While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target. This spell does not expel a controlling life force (such as a ghost or spellcaster using magic jar), but it does prevent them from controlling the target. This second effect only functions against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects, subject to GM discretion.
They then enlarge The Barbarian and he now blocks the passageway so neither Demon can't do anything to him and the Ranger starts shooting both of them with arrows from behind the Barbarian.
The wizard also has cast PfE on himself and other plays. So within 2-3 rounds all members are protected.
Any spells the Succubus does have pretty much fail, because everyone has great saves. And if not the Cleric has other spells up his sleeve that if something does happen to a character he just counters it.
So basically it becomes a fight of how long until they pincushion the Demon to death.
For a 1st level spell, this to me is very overpowering. I mean 1 min/level seems high.
Your saying a 3rd level character could run into a summoned demon, cast protection from evil and has 3 minutes to escape, since #3
Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by evil summoned creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature.
Can the Demon use Dispel Magic against the PfE?
1) The cleric could have cast Grace, then cast PFE, and then walked up to the Barbarian to deliver the touch spell and wouldn't have suffered an AoO in any case.
Also, partial cover does not block AoOs, Cover does.
2) Did the cleric beat the SR of the Nalfeshnee?
If not then the prohibition on physical contact is voided (clause #3).
A 3rd level cleric has no chance beating SR 25 without major help of some kind that is not normally available to a 3rd level character.
3) Was the Nalfeshnee called or was it actually summoned via an effect with the summoning descriptor? If it was not summoned via an effect with the summoning descriptor then it is not affected by clause #3 and can touch the Barbarian normally.
4) Yes, it does prevent mind control. Yay!
Seriously, this is not really an issue.
Also, the cleric can cast only so many PFEs per round (Magic Circle would be better). The succubus could have Dominated the Ranger while the Cleric was protecting the Barbarian.
The Nalfshee could be hitting anyone with Feeblemind (most likely the spellcasters) for nasty effect.
My guess, the two demons were not actually summoned and as such they should not have been subject to clause #3. If they were summoned then the creature that summoned them is the real encounter (and probably a CR 17+).
If they were not summoned then your GM made an error in allowing clause #3 to apply.
Oh, and yes, PFE is subject to Dispel Magic.
Sounds like a party succeeding by using good tactics.
It is a powerful spell - specifically, against mind controllers, and evil summonings with no ranged attacks; a more mixed encounter would be more challenging.
Though unless the entire party has PoE up before the Succubus gets to act, she still has a chance to dominate someone.
I don't see any reason Dispel Magic wouldn't work.
In addition to the above points, don't both these demons have teleport at will?
2) Did the cleric beat the SR of the Nalfeshnee?
If not then the prohibition on physical contact is voided (clause #3).
A 3rd level cleric has no chance beating SR 25 without major help of some kind that is not normally available to a 3rd level character.
I was using 3rd level as example. The party is 13th level
What do you mean did they beat the SR of the Demon?The cleric is casting on a member of the party, there is no SR against them.
Where does the SR of the Demon factor into this?
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2) Did the cleric beat the SR of the Nalfeshnee?
If not then the prohibition on physical contact is voided (clause #3).
A 3rd level cleric has no chance beating SR 25 without major help of some kind that is not normally available to a 3rd level character.I was using 3rd level as example. The party is 13th level
What do you mean did they beat the SR of the Demon?
The cleric is casting on a member of the party, there is no SR against them.
Where does the SR of the Demon factor into this?
Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by evil summoned creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature. Summoned creatures that are not evil are immune to this effect. The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature. Spell resistance can allow a creature to overcome this protection and touch the warded creature.
Succubus: her SLA are blocked by PfE. But a standard succubus is CR 7.
Nalfeshnee: At will—call lightning (DC 18), feeblemind (DC 20), greater dispel magic, slow (DC 18),
Call lightning is wak as an attack, but it isn't stopped by PfE
Feebleming is not mind controlling, it work perfectly. I don't think that a feeblemined barbarian would be able to think something different from fight or Flee! I doubt he will be willing to stand still to be a wall, even if PfE protect him from attacks. He will be unable to realize that.
Greater dispel magic: what PfE? Get this nice area dispel.
Slow: no mind affecting.
As an aside, I love that the Magaambyan Arcana Race Trait (Inner Sea Races) lets you add Protection from Evil to your spell list. It's great for a Magus.
Gilarius, Creatures summoned by Summon Monster cannot use teleportation magic.
A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities.
So, if they were summoned AND the summoning spell was Summon Monster (or mimics it) then they are subject to PFE and cannot use Teleport.
joep, At the moment the Demon tries to make physical contact the Cleric has to make a Spell Resistance check to see if his spell holds up against it. If it fails that Demon is not affected by clause#3 and can make natural attacks normally.
Were the Demons summoned? What was the summoning method?
So the Cleric uses a Rod Piercing Metamagic at times when he needs to overcome SR.
If he puts PfE on the Barbarian, he would need to use the Rod at this time and overcome each creatures SR that's summoned, correct?
How does it work?
Piercing Spell only works against the SR of the spell's target which in this case is the Barbarian. It doesn't have any effect on anyone else, including the Demons. (And since PfE ignores the SR of the target, it wouldn't do anything against the Barbarian either.)
I think Dweomer's Essence would work when casting PfE to add +5 to checks to beat SR against summoned creatures touching a target.
Never knew teleportation was blocked for summons.
Piercing Spell only works against the SR of the spell's target which in this case is the Barbarian. It doesn't have any effect on anyone else, including the Demons. (And since PfE ignores the SR of the target, it wouldn't do anything against the Barbarian either.)
Ok. So let's say they are in combat.
There's a summoned Demon and the Cleric puts PfE on the Barbarian.Now the Barbarian stands in the hallway and blocks the Demon from advancing.
When the Demon tries to either Bite or Claw the Barbarian what happens?
Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by evil summoned creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature. Summoned creatures that are not evil are immune to this effect. The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature. Spell resistance can allow a creature to overcome this protection and touch the warded creature.
The Demon has SR 25. Who's SR is being overcome?
Is he rolling against the PfE on the Barbarian which was cast by the Cleric? So in essence the Cleric's CL is overcoming the SR?
Joep,
The Cleric checks against the Demon's SR at the time the Demon attacks.
In any case, PFE's bodily contact clause isn't that big a deal in most scenarios.
1) Summoned creatures are *part* of an encounter, not the entire encounter. They are part of the summoning creatures CR.
2) The scenario you provided seems to be that of the non-summoned (Demons standing around) type in which case PFE does not block bodily contact.
Dispel Magic also defeats summoned creatures as does a number of other spells.
If the Summoner really wants to, he could summon creatures with manufactured weapons or even provide them to his summoned creatures (Outsiders are proficient with all simple and martial weapons as well as those weapons in their entries).
Here was the scenario.
Party came into the room and Demon Succubus was there as well as the summoned Demon
Party goes into combat and the Barbarian confronts the Demon and is hit hard
Cleric walks up behind him and throws PfE onto him.
I wanted an AoO because demon has Reach 15 and said once Cleric went from 15' to 10' it provokes, but party says no, because he's then behind the Barbarian which provides cover. And your not allowed AoO if player has cover.
Can the Cleric when he casts PfE use items like Rod Piercing Metamagic, Dweoner of Essence, or feat spell penetration when putting the PfE onto a party member?
And yes, the Demon did use his Call Lightning, but 3d6 is not a lot of damage compared to his normal attacks. And majority of time they make there save or avoid damage altogether, rogue and monk
Cleric has Resistance Electricity 5.
And he did try feeblemind, and all slow did was counter their haste.
Ranger is shooting 5-6 arrows and he's cast Gravity Bow, favored enemy, etc. So he's hitting every shot and doing easily 70-80 damage.
Within 5 rounds the fights usually over.
And even if Barbarian swings, he's doing massive damage, more than Ranger. He crits on 17 or higher I believe and does 100+ damage with all his attacks
Hard cover blocks AOO. Soft cover (an ally, for example) would impose a -4 to hit on the AOO.
If the Nalfshanee was summoned, the the PfE was used appropriately.
Honestly, it looks like they used an appropriate amount of resouces plus had some luck on their side that made it easier.
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You mentioned that the party is 13th level. It's pretty common to have encounters end in 5-6 rounds. Actually, it's much more common to have encounters end sooner than 5-6 rounds at that level.
Nalfeshnees have 15 reach, so swipe around behind the enlarged Barb. Also, judicious use of Greater Dispel Magic.
Also as was mentioned, the party used tactics and group dynamics to their benefit. It's easy to get frustrated as a GM if the party seems to walk through an encounter you thought would be challenging. Sometimes that happens. If you want to make things challenging in the future, learn what happened and move on.
If they were in a tight space, your demon's massive size is of little benefit; it's easy to create choke points in small spaces. Also, there's benefit in numbers. And, make sure you're using monsters' SLAs to your benefit. CL 12 with Greater Dispel Magic at will should land at a decent rate (so soon either Enlarge or PfE is gone, if not both).
But yes, PfE is a good spell. It's not game-breaking, but it's one that is useful from 1-20.
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Hard cover blocks AOO. Soft cover (an ally, for example) would impose a -4 to hit on the AOO.
That's Wrong. Any Cover saves from AoO as annoying it is.
Because it isn't specified which cover is meant.The +4 AC comes from Ranged Attacks or Attacking through a Unit with Reach but as part of a normal attack.
From a Dwarf who loves Playing with Reach Weapons.
SEE : Cover and Attacks of Opportunity
You mentioned that the party is 13th level. It's pretty common to have encounters end in 5-6 rounds. Actually, it's much more common to have encounters end sooner than 5-6 rounds at that level.
For a group focused on attacking, 3 rounds is about average at most levels.
Hard cover blocks AOO. Soft cover (an ally, for example) would impose a -4 to hit on the AOO.
That's Wrong. Any Cover saves from AoO as annoying it is.
Because it isn't specified which cover is meant.
The +4 AC comes from Ranged Attacks or Attacking through a Unit with Reach but as part of a normal attack.SEE : Cover and Attacks of Opportunity
That's the way I read it, too.
Soft Cover provides you with cover against ranged attacks (reach attacks determine cover as if ranged), but doesn't give you the Reflex Save bonus and doesn't allow you to make Stealth Checks. Since it doesn't tell you otherwise, in all other ways (+4 AC and no AoO) it is cover.
Hard cover blocks AOO. Soft cover (an ally, for example) would impose a -4 to hit on the AOO.
So if this is the setup
---------
---------
---------
---DDD---
---DDD---
---DDD---
-----B---
-----2---
-----1---
The Cleric enters at position 1, which would not provoke AoO at this time.
The Cleric then moves to position 2. Which I said would draw AoO, but the group disagrees and says we gone over this previously. That the barbarian provides cover to the Cleric and he can walk right in and heal or buff him with no penalty.
But are you saying he only provides Soft cover at all times and I should be able to AoO every time the Cleric tries to Heal the Barbarian?
What about 10'x10' with 10' reach creature?
------
------
--CC--
--CC--
---B--
---1--
Cleric moves to position 1 and heals the barbarian, stating he has cover and never provokes AoO.
Again based on your statement this is soft cover and only provides +4 to AC, does not prevent AoO.
PRD says:
When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.
Plus it states:
You can't execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with cover relative to you.
Are natural attacks considered a reach weapon?
If the Cleric is stepping up from 1 to 2 using a 5', what kind of cover s/he has doesn't matter; 5' steps do not provoke. If the Cleric has moved farther than that, the Cleric would provoke going from 1 to 2 because the creature making the AoO determines cover. You pick any corner you want (say the bottom left in your diagram) and trace a line to every corner of the Cleric's square at 1. You do it at 1 not 2 because it is the act of leaving a threatened square that provokes. No line from the bottom left corner of D's square to every corner of Cleric's intersects any wall or creature, so there is no cover.
However, once Cleric reaches 2 and starts taking provoking actions, Cleric has soft cover (likely, or partial cover) and therefore doesn't provoke.
Getting to spot 2 still would provoke, though (assuming no 5' step).
On the other hand, a huge demon can choose which square he's attacking from, which might allow an AaO on the cleric from an angle.
I'd have to go check the rules to be sure.
Edit- ninjas
If the Barb provides cover the cover does stop AoO from being made. and since there was a doorway involved I don't think there's any way to say there wasn't cover.
joep, who summoned the Nalfeshnee? You did not list the summoner in the encounter.
As for cover, no, the un-enlarged Barbarian does not provide cover since the reach of the Demon is 15' and being huge can choose where it is attacking from. It can reach around the barbarian. The Demon should have tripped the Cleric and prevented him from getting to the Barbarian.
.
DD1
DD2
DDDBXC
The above is a side view, from the #1 or #2 squares (part of the Demon) It has an unobstructed reach to the Cleric as the cleric tries to leave that square. A Medium creature cannot block an AoO at that distance. This is further supported by the 'low obstacle' rule in the CRB.
Low Obstacles and Cover: A low obstacle (such as a wall no higher than half your height) provides cover, but only to creatures within 30 feet (6 squares) of it. The attacker can ignore the cover if he’s closer to the obstacle than his target.
Your players were 100% incorrect. The Barbarian did not provide cover for the Cleric because the Demon was closer to the Barbarian than the Cleric. Once the Cleric reaches the Barbarian then he would have (soft) cover.
Finally, if the Barbarian attacks the Demon then the attack breaks the PFE #3 clause. The Demon can respond.
chess pwn, no doorway has been mentioned. The OP mentioned Enlarge occupying a Passageway. Even if the passageway is only 10' tall (tall enough to accomodate an enlarged Barbarian) then as per the quoted rule above an un-enlarged Barbarian still does not provide cover to the Cleric 15' away.
Hard cover blocks AOO. Soft cover (an ally, for example) would impose a -4 to hit on the AOO.
That's Wrong. Any Cover saves from AoO as annoying it is.
Because it isn't specified which cover is meant.
The +4 AC comes from Ranged Attacks or Attacking through a Unit with Reach but as part of a normal attack.From a Dwarf who loves Playing with Reach Weapons.
SEE : Cover and Attacks of Opportunity
Oh, that is going to help so much! Thanks for the correction.
@Gauss Though, if the demon was directly blocking a 10ft high hallway, the ceiling might block the AoO.
I never thought determining cover could be so tricky. :P
Paulicus,
No, the ceiling wouldn't block the AoO because the Demon selects the corner of one of his squares to make the attack from. The intersection between #1 and #2 has clear 4 lines to the cleric.
Here is an image showing why the cleric does not have cover.
Here is an image when the cleric would have cover.
This is using the "ranged cover" rules as they apply to reach. The side view has the same results as the Low Obstacles rule. (The low obstacles rule is so you don't have to do a side view to figure things out.)
To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).
When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has cover if any line from any corner of your square to the target’s square goes through a wall (including a low wall). When making a melee attack against a target that isn’t adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.
The low obstacle rule you quoted doesn't apply here. This is soft cover rules.
Chess Pwn, the determining cover rules apply. The Soft Cover rules define what happens when the cover is a creature. They do not include 'how to determine soft cover'.
Soft Cover: Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Stealth check.
In any case, it doesn't matter, I have shown in two ways how the cleric did not have cover when approaching the Demon.
1) Demon can select the square it is attacking from. (CRB p196 "Big Creatures and Cover")
2) Demon is using reach to attack, thus determines cover using the rules for determining cover vs a ranged weapon and the rules for determining cover from an obstacle.
3) Whether using the obstacle rules (barbarian is too short to provide cover) or the ranged weapon vs cover rules (Demon chooses square, draw 4 lines from one of those squares' corners to the target), the Demon still had the ability to make an AoO on the Cleric when the Cleric was at 15'.
I completely agree that in your diagram he doesn't have cover. I'm not arguing with you if there was or wasn't. My initial stance was if cover was granted it stops AoO, and that from the sound of it being a passageway that it'd probably have cover. If the passage was as you have shown in your diagrams then there wasn't cover. This is the problem of not knowing the dimensions and layout of the situation.
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@Gauss: your diagrams are very pretty. How do you make them?
I disagree with the side view though; there are no "top corners" in squares, squares are 2D. There are no 5ft cubes in PF (and barbarians don't have to stoop down to fit under a 5ft ceiling to accommodate demons trying to reach over them).
As for the top view: indeed, at the cleric's starting location he'd provoke. After a 5ft step closer he wouldn't though.
Ascalaphus,
I use Roll20.
Regarding the side view, I think you missed my point, perhaps I didn't express it clearly. I was demonstrating why the obstacle rule exists by showing that it works the same as if you flipped the view to a side view. The obstacle rule bypasses the need for going to a side view. There are a number of rules in Pathfinder who's intent is to model 3d situations without involving actually working things out in 3d. The flying (skill) rules for example.
Regarding starting position, in the OPs description of the situation the Cleric was moving from beyond the reach of the Demon to adjacent to the Demon. My diagram was only to determine whether the Cleric had cover at the point of the AoO (the point in question). The OP's players believed that the Cleric would not have suffered an AoO when in fact he would have.
Ascalaphus,
I use Roll20.
Regarding the side view, I think you missed my point, perhaps I didn't express it clearly. I was demonstrating why the obstacle rule exists by showing that it works the same as if you flipped the view to a side view. The obstacle rule bypasses the need for going to a side view. There are a number of rules in Pathfinder who's intent is to model 3d situations without involving actually working things out in 3d. The flying (skill) rules for example.
Regarding starting position, in the OPs description of the situation the Cleric was moving from beyond the reach of the Demon to adjacent to the Demon. My diagram was only to determine whether the Cleric had cover at the point of the AoO (the point in question). The OP's players believed that the Cleric would not have suffered an AoO when in fact he would have.
I often find people do not understand reaching from creature bigger than normal.