Dealing with character injuries


Advice


So I have a player who seems to have a hard time dealing with consequences. Every time something negative happens to his character, he basically complains and then stops paying attention to the game. For example, if a monster hits him and he loses some strength or a wizard casts blindness on him or he suffers from a curse or whatever. Essentially if it cannot be cured within the next round, he says there is nothing for him to do and then proceeds to do nothing.

I get that it can be frustrating to play a character who is now blind or a fighter who is not longer strong and you have no real cure available to fix it yet (due to being low level), but monsters have abilities that do bad things and I feel like he just needs to accept that it is going to happen from time to time. I feel like my only option to avoid his stewing is to only use enemies that deal straight hp damage and even then I have to be careful that he doesn't lose said fight. To me, as both a gm and as a player in other games, that just isn't fun. The whole fun of winning a battle is the danger that maybe you don't win.

Am I doing something wrong? If not, what do you think I should do with this player to ensure an enjoyable game without having to fight with kid gloves on all the time?

Silver Crusade

Simply Talk to him. Explain calmly what he has to be expect and a hero-like character has to overcome difficulty.

If he cant life with that maybe he isn't fit to play such games.
IF he simply stop playing because he lost strength etc and actually negatively influences tha party....kill his character.

Because if he keeps doing so he will drag the party down.


Well as far as ability damage goes, that issue can be resolved by pointing out to the divine caster of the group or anyone with a decent use magic device to invest in a Wand of Lesser Restoration (4500gp at most. Only 750gp if the wand happened to be crafted by a paladin. Crafting it can reduce either cost by half.). Sure it takes 3 rounds to cast but I find it hard to believe that the fighter can't manage for one fight. Blindness doesn't usually come up too often but you could always just buy a scroll of remove blindness/deafness if you're that worried about it. A scroll of remove curse can also come in handy. If you happen to have a dedidcated divine caster (witch also works for some stuff), then try suggesting to them to leave a spell slot open from time to time in case of permanent conditions like blindness/deafness. High saves with cloaks of resistance help, but you won't always get a save with some stuff.

Now with that being said, constantly targeting low level players with more permanent conditions that they can't cure can get old fast. It may also be good to sit down with your players and ask them what they want out of a game (eg, gritty, unforgiving, rare character death and such).

Silver Crusade

I concerned my answer might sound harsch, but my party had mindless rushers who simply went into melee without thinking twice and tactics.
We had 4 Deaths.
GM tried several times to remind the Players which only worked after they were killed not by the GM but by their stupidity.


Hands down nothing will take the fight out of a martial quite like ability damage or getting smacked with an enervation. It is utterly defeating for a player when that happens for a variety of reasons. You may as well tell the player "You miss unless you roll a 20", because in a lot of cases, that's what it becomes. Also for someone like me who precalculates everything, it completely throws a wrench into my math which can shaken me up as I'm terrible at it on the fly.

Also, what exactly level are we talking about here? Is lesser restoration not even available? That's poor judgment on your part if so. There should should at least be a cure option after combat.

As mentioned, you need to give more details on this, but also perhaps, not using so many of these tactics if clearly your usage is bothering the PC? Perhaps consider entangle instead, or actually take him out of the fight with a Create Pit perhaps, but deliberately hitting him with ability damage and the like is pretty vicious in my opinion.


It is far from a constant thing. Nor is it unique to my game. He acts like that in other campaigns with other GMs (the strength drain was actually in another game, not mine). Even in a board game where the penalty for some particular action is losing his turn for the round, he goes on and on about how draconian the penalties are for the game.

Right now they are 4th level and dont really have the cash to drop 4500 gp on a wand of lesser restoration, and their main healer is the paladin who unfortunately doesnt have the casting chops to deal with these issues on his own. I throw extra healing potions their way to make up for the lack of a cleric and make cures cheaper than they should be when they get back to town. But he doesnt have the patience to make due with a status effect even until the end of the battle, much less the time it takes to get back to civilization.


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Is he over the age of 15? If he is tell him to grow up, if he doesn't let him suffer until he learns. If he does not learn and is disruptive drop him from the game.
I don't like having bad things happen to my characters but like everyone else I live with it adapt and overcome , or design a new character is I die and cannot be brought back.


Could it be that the player is somebody who enjoys complaining? Some people like gloating. Some like making jokes. Some like complaining.

Either way, it generally isn't good when somebody stops participating. Maybe the player needs suggestions on how the PC might still help out despite whatever disability he's suffering from. If the other players ask for help and the sulking guy shakes his head but pitches in and tries maybe he'll get to enjoy the chance to come through as part of the team. If the other players ask for help and the sulking guy bitterly refuses that's a bigger problem, but maybe it stems from something in his life away from the table.

All that aside, if somebody's PC isn't able to function at 100% for multiple sessions it can really start to get old after a while. Some players are downright masochists, but a lot of them are fairly stoic and suffer in silence (or only complain to the other players when the DM isn't around)

Sczarni

Considering that you did absolutely everything in your power as GM in having a fair and nice game...

Have a talk with him. A real honest talk. Explain him what you told us and await his response. Be friendly, nice, kind and polite, but tell him to shape up a bit. Life isn't going to listen to excuses or complaints nor should you. If he persists, you can remind him that getting new player is always an option for you. Sometimes you need to push people a bit to make them understand.

Adam

Liberty's Edge

I'll play devil's advocate.

Does this come up often? It sounds like you might be singling him out a bit unfairly. Even if it's not intentional, it might be worth taking careful notes on how often his character gets crippled compared to the rest of the party. His attitude and response might be inappropriate but there might be merits to his complaints.


Is this in the context of an AP? How often does this happen? If frequent at that low a level it is kind of odd.


I am not singling him out. Things happen to all players from time to time. If they fight some spiders, one can get poisoned and lose some con temporarily. A 3rd level wizard might use charm and blindness spells to make things easier for his minions to fight the PCs. Various undead like wights and shadows do energy drains and strength damage. These are all threats that a 4th level party should reasonably be able to take on (those are all CR 3).

Generally the target of these abilities is whoever the monster can happen to reach most readily at the time. Or whoever seems to be the most threatening if the attack is ranged. So fighters are going to be the most likely to take the brunt of attacks since they are up front where the monsters can reach and that is kind of their job. They also tend to have the best chance of making fort saves vs poison bites and AC to avoid being hit at all. Intelligent creatures will use ranged effects on spellcasters because magic is dangerous and unpredictable, so that makes wizards/clerics (who are usually not in the front lines) targets of ranged stuff. He plays a rogue, so of the group, he is probably the least likely to be targeted since he tends to bounce around and sneak attack things before scurrying away.

Sure it sucks to lose a level, stat or whatever weird status effect that monsters can do, but these monsters exist and it seems weird to specifically avoid using them for the benefit of one sulking player.


I am not asking if you're targeting him, but are you using mostly monsters that debilitate or do ability damage?

Dark Archive

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LordBiBo wrote:

I am not singling him out. Things happen to all players from time to time. If they fight some spiders, one can get poisoned and lose some con temporarily. A 3rd level wizard might use charm and blindness spells to make things easier for his minions to fight the PCs. Various undead like wights and shadows do energy drains and strength damage. These are all threats that a 4th level party should reasonably be able to take on (those are all CR 3).

Generally the target of these abilities is whoever the monster can happen to reach most readily at the time. Or whoever seems to be the most threatening if the attack is ranged. So fighters are going to be the most likely to take the brunt of attacks since they are up front where the monsters can reach and that is kind of their job. They also tend to have the best chance of making fort saves vs poison bites and AC to avoid being hit at all. Intelligent creatures will use ranged effects on spellcasters because magic is dangerous and unpredictable, so that makes wizards/clerics (who are usually not in the front lines) targets of ranged stuff. He plays a rogue, so of the group, he is probably the least likely to be targeted since he tends to bounce around and sneak attack things before scurrying away.

Sure it sucks to lose a level, stat or whatever weird status effect that monsters can do, but these monsters exist and it seems weird to specifically avoid using them for the benefit of one sulking player.

In one of my games, I'm dealing with a fellow player just like that!

He thinks such things happen because we disliked him. I'm playing a tank and he's a melee/short ranged, light armor Ranger/Rogue(front line support). Of coarse while he was irked about 2 strength points, a con pt and a lvl. I was down 11 strength, 4 con and 4 lvls. it was all temp damage, so just an inconvenience!

He acted like he got castrated. While I was unable to carry my own gear out of the temple we were in and it was his fault as he disregarded ropes on pulleys in the room just before the pit trap filled with the freaking Philippine Wraith things that chewed us up.


Some players have a vision of a character in their mind who is an epic hero and doesn't ever fail. That is simply not how most campaigns run.

Also, as far as singling out the character, the thing about it is that frontliners take more punishment. It's just a fact. When you put your face near the enemies, it's more likely to get bashed in.

The absolute best thing you can do is take some time (not the same day you are playing the campaign) to talk to him openly and honestly about what's going on. Show him respect and honest and he should respect you in turn.


I like to tell players they are not against me but the adventure. I am not their enemy. If they come at the adventure not prepare to suffer effects then they will suffer. If and when they cry about being unprepared that is being a baby, and I point that out.

Meanwhile I this is a role playing game. If you get dinged with a bad effect then I expect you to roleplay the bad effect. Negative results can be just as entertaining as good ones. Have fun beign blind and fumbling around.


Have a talk with him. Be nice and diplomatic.

Effectively tell him in some friendly words to grow up. To accept that the game also has challenges and hardships that arent super-easy and super-fast to overcome.

P.S.
I have the feeling that the player is most likely a 15ish teenager single-child. But i also had that behavior from a 30 year old manchild with a terrible mother-protection-instince for his character/baby.


Guru-Meditation wrote:

Have a talk with him. Be nice and diplomatic.

Effectively tell him in some friendly words to grow up. To accept that the game also has challenges and hardships that arent super-easy and super-fast to overcome.

P.S.
I have the feeling that the player is most likely a 15ish teenager single-child. But i also had that behavior from a 30 year old manchild with a terrible mother-protection-instince for his character/baby.

Things would be easier if he was a child, but unfortunately he is a 25 year old adult (though that still does make him the baby of the group as everyone else is in their mid 30's). He just seems to be a poor sport in games in general. I guess I will do my best to sit him down privately and explain that his character is going to get hurt from time to time, it isn't personal and it benefits no one to sulk about it. As long as he isn't dead, his character has a role to play. Even if it isn't as effective as he expects.

All the best stories I have from various RPGs have involved some weird setback. Heck, my favorite story started with my character being killed by a doppleganger in my first session. The gm then let me play it, attempting to infiltrate and sabotage the group in exchange for full xp to make another character when the adventure was over. The group never found out either.

Liberty's Edge

LordBiBo wrote:
I am not singling him out. Things happen to all players from time to time. If they fight some spiders, one can get poisoned and lose some con temporarily. A 3rd level wizard might use charm and blindness spells to make things easier for his minions to fight the PCs. Various undead like wights and shadows do energy drains and strength damage. These are all threats that a 4th level party should reasonably be able to take on (those are all CR 3).

Very few DMs are so petty as to actually single a player/character out but seriously take objective notes on what's happening session to session. Maybe you're singling him out indirectly via your encounter design. It's true that frontliners suffer the most abuse in general combat but if that abuse means the frontliner is consistently sitting out maybe it's time to changes things up. Use some monsters/encounters that effectively pick on the back line for a bit.

Take a page from MMO encounter design. Most modern MMOs include mechanics that put all of the players in peril because it isn't fun to be the one guy/girl that's in a life or death struggle all the time. Effectively spread the love and your unhappy player is likely to be a lot less unhappy.

/devil's advocate


I still don't feel like my initial question was answered. Are you targeting the party with enemies that do non-HP damages/cause injuries out of proportion as would be expected at that CR. If you're throw out nothing but CR 3-5 creatures doing stat and status damage then I could see being irked even if I weren't targeted; because specialized damage, at the level, is the exception not the rule.


His character doesn't fight when debuffed. Might cause him to die, but that's his call. I'd say unless he comes to you and say he actually has a serious problem with it just let it be.


Create Mr. Pitt wrote:
I still don't feel like my initial question was answered. Are you targeting the party with enemies that do non-HP damages/cause injuries out of proportion as would be expected at that CR. If you're throw out nothing but CR 3-5 creatures doing stat and status damage then I could see being irked even if I weren't targeted; because specialized damage, at the level, is the exception not the rule.

Well, so far in this campaign the only fight that I have thrown out that involved anything other than straight hp damage was one with a wizard casting charm and blindness from the back lines to help out other troops in battle. So no, I don't think so. I gave the other examples from other games we have played together in the past with other GMs where the player's response was similar.


On the flip side, we recently had a GM go through what the OP's player is going through.

We burst in on a summoning-focused wizard using a magic item. He's about to unleash a brutal summons on him. Despite his awesome Dex our party wins initiative. Three hits and a spell later his familiar is dead and he's Blinded, Prone and Shaken.

Needless to say; he didn't make his Concentration check either.

So our GM is like "Ok, he... ummm... casts Fly and leaves."

My wolf has Combat Reflexes. His casting caused an AoO; when he "left" he also provoked. He died blind and scared falling out the window as he attempted to "leave."

Here's what I said to the GM: sometimes these things happen. If they do however, it's not the end of the world. The very simplest solution (if you're not Prone) is smoke.

Smokestick, Obscuring Mist, heck just tossing a wet log on a fire so it smolders; all of these are good times.

We all build characters dreaming of how to do TONS of damage and be a super hero. Now go READ some super hero comics, preferably many Marvel titles. The heroes sometimes run away. Running away is ALWAYS an option.

Got someone who can make consumables? There is NO reason you don't have every spellcaster or NPC spellcaster working with this person to craft consumables. These should include, from Level 1, Remove Fear and Remove Sickness. Level 2? Lesser Restoration, Remove Paralysis, etc.

As far as what to do WHILE suffering a Condition or Ability Damage? Review your options. At low level I'll admit: Blindness is a pretty scary one. But other than that you can usually fight through it. A -2 here, a few points of Str Damage there and they add up, sure, but you can

- Aid Another
- Throw a net
- Throw Acid Flasks
- Cast buff spells
- Use a familiar/Eidolon/Animal Companion/Mount
- Grab something big and heavy and get/give Cover
- Fight Defensively
- Total Defense
- Create smoke, fog or some other Concealment

So in the end pull your player aside and have a talk. You should all be on the same page. Your player should understand how heroes get challenged, but you should be empathetic and really try to hear the concerns of your player. If, after that plus all the suggestions of this thread your player is STILL frustrated and being disruptive of gameplay remind them that this is a big kids table and that hysterics belong in their room.


Also keep in mind that injuries favor the hard to hit, not the hard to kill. Injuries are far more likely to affect the barbarian with 100 HP and 20 AC as opposed to the fighter with 70 HP but 30 AC.

I do like the recommendation for splitting aggro. I know an MMORPG called Vindictus has all of their bosses have ranged attack they throw out to target the people trying to keep their distance. Either that or they go towards what's causing the most damage, or sometimes they simply target the guy that is the farthest away. It's definitely a game where the ranged people have to dodge almost as much as the melee people.


I don't pull punches as a DM because it nullifies the effort other PCs are making in being combat effective. That being said I tend to avoid coup de graces but when I unleash Save or Suck it can be a moment for tears.

I haven't encountered backlash except from sensitive personalities -I try to narrate their efforts as heroically as possible but I cannot make an enemy behave foolishly unless the PCs actually manipulated it so.

For injuries -it can become a personal goal/Party Objective to restore said PC. It's an odd group that'll let a valued member toddle along crippled.

Even when I played a Cloudy-Eyed Oracle someone on my team ALWAYS kept within 30' of me -and I was a Gnome with 20' Move. I didn't ask for it, but you notice it on the board that you're never alone, even if it's a melee rogue "hanging back" for an opportunity. It can help define the group.

Permanent debilitations can be counteracted but mid-fight treat it as a fun twist -a new challenge the PC must adapt to and overcome. It's why I always fill in the Divine hole in a Party if no one else has it covered. Love playing Mr. Feelgood.


Let me begin by saying you kids need to get off my lawn. There, now that you all know I'm a cranky old lady, I'm just gonna throw this out: children who are given a ribbon no matter what never learn how to be humble in victory or gracious in loss. This sounds like the product of modern day molly-coddling to me.

How to fix it? I dunno, wait until this young'un has young'uns of his own to complain about? We were all massive disappointments to those who came before us so it's just a matter of time before the horrible youth of tomorrow makes him look like a legendary sportsman by comparison.

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