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A sohei with a nodachi?
Can do high crit flurry fishing without spending any feats. Just pick polearms for their weapon training.
You can then go on to spend your feats on actual useful things, such as power attack (since you get x1.5 that on flurry).
Also, you can go pure str focused without being a complete glass canon, since you can just grab regular armor and still flurry (at least until various sources of AC scale and get enough item enhancements to jusitfy ditching the armor).
A sohei with a nodachi?
Can do high crit flurry fishing without spending any feats. Just pick polearms for their weapon training.
You can then go on to spend your feats on actual useful things, such as power attack (since you get x1.5 that on flurry).
Also, you can go pure str focused without being a complete glass canon, since you can just grab regular armor and still flurry (at least until various sources of AC scale and get enough item enhancements to jusitfy ditching the armor).
Sohei nodachi flurrying doesn't come online until lvl 6 though which is a problem.
Is it? Cause you look like a guy running around with a high crit 2 handed weapon that has fairly decent damage dice to me. That seems fairly decent already. That seems like the very standard for good melee damage for levels 1-5.
Plus, this weapon will have both strength and power attack bonuses (since it actually has room for those). Compared to your str only bonuses. And its str score may well be better, since it is less reliant on MAD for AC.
EDIT- and wait a darn minute- I didn't notice this before (since I rarely look at exotic weapons) but urumi doesn't have monk property. So you can't flurry with yours either until you spend the second feat for it at level 5. So you aren't exactly turning on at level 1 either, mister.
So you have a miniscule headstart on sohei, obtained by spending almost all your feats. The sohei, meanwhile, is rocking with whatever feats it wants and/or needs.
Is it? Cause you look like a guy running around with a high crit 2 handed weapon that has fairly decent damage dice to me. That seems fairly decent already. That seems like the very standard for good melee damage for levels 1-5.
Plus, this weapon will have both strength and power attack bonuses (since it actually has room for those). Compared to your str only bonuses. And its str score may well be better, since it is less reliant on MAD for AC.
Except you're a monk, with 3/4 BAB, and power attack will only make that worse, on top of being MAD, because you're a monk. Those first 5 levels are not going to be enjoyable until you can flurry and actually get full bab. It's not like you're an investigator and you can easily get over full bab by using studied combat, on top of the mutagen, and other extracts to make you deadly. Monks get none of that. They rely on FoB to be useful.
So both builds are extremely flawed.
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Except you're a monk, with 3/4 BAB, and power attack will only make that worse, on top of being MAD, because you're a monk. Those first 5 levels are not going to be enjoyable until you can flurry and actually get full bab. It's not like you're an investigator and you can easily get over full bab by using studied combat, on top of the mutagen, and other extracts to make you deadly. Monks get none of that. They rely on FoB to be useful.
So both builds are extremely flawed.
Again- I said sohei. The one with weapon training, and access to gloves of dueling. As in the one with access to bonuses on par with bards and inquisitors, even when it isn't flurrying.
With enough bonuses that it can have the same attack bonus as unchained monks (who are a full BAB class that lack an attack boosting mechanic) outside of flurry. The one that can still get better attack bonuses compared to unchained in flurry, despite sticking with the -2 penalty version of flurry.
This is the basic build for sohei. Grab nice 2 handed weapon. power attack. Weapon training. Kill things.
I'm talking about before the build comes online. What do you do for levels 1-5? That's what you're not getting. You get Weapon Training at lvl 6. How do you survive and be useful until then? I'm not seeing it.
I'm talking about before the build comes online. What do you do for levels 1-5? That's what you're not getting. You get Weapon Training at lvl 6. How do you survive and be useful until then? I'm not seeing it.
It is levels 1-5. The difference between full BAB and 3/4 BAB isn't that huge yet. Seriously- it is simple 2 handing. It is hard to mess up early on. Just have a good strength score.
This is like saying that a level 1 bard is only good in melee for 1-2 fights per day, since they only have about 6-8 rounds of inspire per day, and as such lack that bonus the rest of the time. It is like saying an inquisitor is only good for a single fight per day, since they use up their one use of judgment.
You do know there were people that could make semi successful core rogue builds, right? And they NEVER got the kind of bonuses sohei sees.
This is better as an Unchained Monk than as a Sohei.
Continue with other points of the discussion.
This is better as an Unchained Monk than as a Sohei.
Continue with other points of the discussion.
I won't acknowledge that sohei is not on par with unmonk in melee, but
I will acknowledge particular and relevant parts and benefits of the build.Crit fishing with flurry isn't anything particularly new, and unmonk is not particularly great at it if that is all you are aiming for (again- you waste a lot of feats to accomplish it). No, the main benefit here is the the one that Ascetic Form specifically calls out- style strikes. Or more importantly- flying kick.
That had been one of my main complaints about unmonk, and why I was mostly frustrated with it as a 'meh' side grade compared to sohei. When flying kick focused on unarmed strikes, I was forced to ask 'why can't I just do a sohei with brawling style- I would want to take that style anyway since it is the DR breaking one'. The need for unarmed strikes meant it didn't play well with weapon builds.
Aesthetic style makes it play nice with weapon builds. That is what should be the focus here.
EDIT- ok, actual advice for the build- as I noted, you are going a long time without power attack. One of the main sources of damage for monks, comes from the x1.5 they get on their weapons.
Just citing Viking Irishman's guide to weapons in the guide to guide, the difference between high crit and 'ok' crit weapons like temple swords is not great enough to entirely justify a feat (at least not at most playign levels- if you start high level, then you never have to actually deal wtih these dulldrums). General concensus is usually that exotic weapon proficiency is rarely worth it.
And since it is actively take up space for other core parts of your build... yeah not great. So sticking with temple sword and having your build work at level 1 is probably for the best. Then, working your way up so you can do flying kick with the temple sword is fine.
There are other benefits to Ascetic Style with Unchained Monk (over Sohei):
- You can use your Unarmed Damage dice for your weapon damage (as an effect that augments your unarmed strikes). Stonefist Gauntlets provide a nontrivial increase to damage as well later on, and they stack with Monk's Robe.
- Can qualify for Staggering/Stunning Critical feats, allowing for Medusa's Wrath (thank you, Ascetic Style) barrages of death.
- Better Power Attack damage.
- Elemental Fury ki power is neat to enhance attacks and One Touch can be useful later on.
- Shattering Punch is also a great Style Strike.
H: Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
1: Power Attack or whatever
3: whatever
5: Ascetic Style -> Can now be used with all monk weaponsWeapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) will now apply to all monk weapons, so just pick one 19-20/2 weapon with the 'monk' and without the 'double' special property.
I'd say:
H. WF (Unarmed)
1. Ascetic Style
M1. Whatever
M2. Whatever
3. Power Attack
5. Ascetic Form
M6. Whatever
7. Exotic Weapon Prof: Urumi
9. Improved Critical
M10. Medusa's Wrath
11. Critical Focus
13. Staggering Critical
M14. Whatever
15. Whatever
17. Stunning Critical
The idea is that you have a 15-20/2x crit range, stagger on a critical, and have 2 extra Urumi hits (thank you, Medusa's Wrath + Staggering Critical) when you trigger this.
You'd be very deadly.
The problem with this is that the Urumi is not a weapon with the 'monk' special property, and thus does not benefit from Ascetic Style. It has to be your 'Chosen Weapon' when you take the feat.
No, it benefits alright. That is the confusing part. Ascetic style isn't concerned with weapons with the monk property, but weapons that are in the 'monk' group for fighter weapon training.
So yes, it is a valid target for this. It is forced into normal attacks until level 5 though, when ascetic form kicks in and lets it ride on unarmed strikes' coat tails into flurry.
There are other benefits to Ascetic Style with Unchained Monk (over Sohei):
- You can use your Unarmed Damage dice for your weapon damage (as an effect that augments your unarmed strikes). Stonefist Gauntlets provide a nontrivial increase to damage as well later on, and they stack with Monk's Robe.
It take past PFS level (I know that this game is not just PFS- just saying that those are the chosen levels since a lot of games focus on that range) before it scales enough to beat a nodachi's 1d10. And yet another feat (ascetic strike). So I am unsure how serious it is in gameplay.
It is great for getting traditionally small diced weapons like the cestus up to snuff, but I am not so sure about comparing beefy 2handed weapons.
But as you said- we should focus less on comparing the two choices, and more with making the choice we are focused on for this thread better.
I'd say:H. WF (Unarmed)
1. Ascetic Style
M1. Whatever
M2. Whatever
3. Power Attack
5. Ascetic Form
M6. Whatever
7. Exotic Weapon Prof: Urumi
The problem with this is that the Urumi is not a weapon with the 'monk' special property, and thus does not benefit from Ascetic Style. It has to be your 'Chosen Weapon' when you take the feat.
Thanks for the advice though.
EDIT: Grammar.
You got that backwards. Ascetic style works with the "Monk weapon group" of the fighter, which includes Urumi. That group does not include the temple sword, which is a monk weapon. So having the monk property has no effect on Ascetic style.
You got that backwards. Ascetic style works with the "Monk weapon group" of the fighter, which includes Urumi. That group does not include the temple sword, which is a monk weapon. So having the monk property has no effect on Ascetic style.
No, temple sword is in the monk weapon group for fighters.
But I am sure there are a few of the random monk weapons that are not in the monk group- those terrible ones that you would never look at anyway. There are a couple dozen of them, so there has to be a couple exceptions.
You are generally correct- the monk property has little to do with the fighter group (and thus ascetic style), besides being a base thematic justification for most of them being there.
Nobody mentioned Weapon Adept? Perfect Strike at level 1 and rolling 3 instead of two dice at level 10 is great for crit fishing.
You got that backwards. Ascetic style works with the "Monk weapon group" of the fighter, which includes Urumi. That group does not include the temple sword, which is a monk weapon. So having the monk property has no effect on Ascetic style.No, temple sword is in the monk weapon group for fighters.
But I am sure there are a few of the random monk weapons that are not in the monk group- those terrible ones that you would never look at anyway. There are a couple dozen of them, so there has to be a couple exceptions.
You are generally correct- the monk property has little to do with the fighter group (and thus ascetic style), besides being a base thematic justification for most of them being there.
here is the PRD for Monk weapon group.
MONKBo staff, brass knuckles, butterfly sword, cestus, dan bong, double chained kama, double chicken saber, emei piercer, fighting fan, jutte, kama, kusarigama, kyoketsu shoge, lungchuan tamo, monk's spade, nine-ring broadsword, nine-section whip, nunchaku, quarterstaff, rope dart, sai, sansetsukon, seven-branched sword, shang gou, shuriken, siangham, tiger fork, tonfa, tri-point double-edged sword, unarmed strike, urumi, and wushu dart
Notice the lack of temple sword. If you can find somewhere where it says it's added to this list that'd be great cause I'd love to use a temple sword with Ascetic style.
Nobody mentioned Weapon Adept? Perfect Strike at level 1 and rolling 3 instead of two dice at level 10 is great for crit fishing.
Perfect Strike doesn't affect unarmed strikes, so Ascetic Style d oes nothing for it.
I was going off the list in here.MONK
Bo staff, brass knuckles, butterfly sword, cestus, dan bong, double chained kama, double chicken saber, emei piercer, fighting fan, jutte, kama, kusarigama, kyoketsu shoge, lungchuan tamo, monk's spade, nine-ring broadsword, nine-section whip, nunchaku, quarterstaff, rope dart, sai, sansetsukon, seven-branched sword, shang gou, shuriken, siangham, tiger fork, tonfa, tri-point double-edged sword, unarmed strike, urumi, and wushu dartNotice the lack of temple sword. If you can find somewhere where it says it's added to this list that'd be great cause I'd love to use a temple sword with Ascetic style.
d20pfsrd often has errors. The most recent Paizo weapon group listing is this blog post, and temple swords aren't in the Monk weapon group.
Monk: Bo staff, brass knuckles, butterfly sword, cestus, dan bong, deer horn knife, double chained kama, double chicken saber, emei piercer, fighting fan, hanbo, jutte, kama, kusarigama, kyoketsu shoge, lungchuan tamo, monk's spade, nine-ring broadsword, nine-section whip, nunchaku, quarterstaff, rope dart, sai, sansetsukon, seven-branched sword, shang gou, shuriken, siangham, tiger fork, tonfa, tri-point double-edged sword, unarmed strike, urumi, and wushu dart
The deer horn knife and hanbo have been added to the list that Chess Pwn quoted. The weapons in italics are also special Monk weapons.
Monk special weapons that are not in the Monk weapon group include the knuckle axe, bich'hwa, and temple sword.
Thank you kindly.
d20pfsrd often has errors. The most recent Paizo weapon group listing is this blog post, and temple swords aren't in the Monk weapon group.Monk: Bo staff, brass knuckles, butterfly sword, cestus, dan bong, deer horn knife, double chained kama, double chicken saber, emei piercer, fighting fan, hanbo, jutte, kama, kusarigama, kyoketsu shoge, lungchuan tamo, monk's spade, nine-ring broadsword, nine-section whip, nunchaku, quarterstaff, rope dart, sai, sansetsukon, seven-branched sword, shang gou, shuriken, siangham, tiger fork, tonfa, tri-point double-edged sword, unarmed strike, urumi, and wushu dart
You are welcome.
The Urumi is on the list, though we'd still need to spend an Exotic Weapon Proficiency on it.
Yes, but that 18-20 threat range could be worth it. For an Esoteric Magus, who normally can only use Spellstrike with unarmed strikes, Ascetic Style with a keen urumi offers both monk damage and Spellstrike with a really good chance of doubling your spell damage. Plus an adamantine urumi would be nice to overcome hardness.
Nobody mentioned Weapon Adept? Perfect Strike at level 1 and rolling 3 instead of two dice at level 10 is great for crit fishing.Perfect Strike doesn't affect unarmed strikes, so Ascetic Style d oes nothing for it.
Ascetic Style explicitly call out for "Feats that have IUS as prerequisite" in addition to "Feats that apply to US". I can't see how this specification was not made explicitly for cases like Perfect Strike.
Additionally, Ascetic Form apply explicitly to Perfect Strike. I think this is prove enaugh that at very least it was intended for it to apply.I'm calling a "more specific" rule here.
I'd say:H. WF (Unarmed)
1. Ascetic Style
M1. Whatever
M2. Whatever
3. Power Attack
5. Ascetic Form
M6. Whatever
7. Exotic Weapon Prof: Urumi
The problem with this is that the Urumi is not a weapon with the 'monk' special property, and thus does not benefit from Ascetic Style. It has to be your 'Chosen Weapon' when you take the feat.
Thanks for the advice though.
EDIT: Grammar.
You are incorrect. Ascetic Style works in conjunction with weapons in the monk fighter weapon group, of which the urumi belongs. The weapon styles all work with weapons from the monk fighter weapon group, not the monk weapon feature.
So Ascetic Style Medusa's Wrath it is?
Nobody mentioned Weapon Adept? Perfect Strike at level 1 and rolling 3 instead of two dice at level 10 is great for crit fishing.Perfect Strike doesn't affect unarmed strikes, so Ascetic Style d oes nothing for it.Ascetic Style explicitly call out for "Feats that have IUS as prerequisite" in addition to "Feats that apply to US". I can't see how this specification was not made explicitly for cases like Perfect Strike.
Additionally, Ascetic Form apply explicitly to Perfect Strike. I think this is prove enaugh that at very least it was intended for it to apply.I'm calling a "more specific" rule here.
It still doesn't work:
Choose one weapon from the monk fighter weapon group. While using this style and wielding the chosen weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike, as if attacks with the weapon were unarmed attacks.
Bolded part is important. Perfect Strike can only be used with nunchucks and s!+@ like that, but not unarmed strikes.
In any case, even if Temple Sword is included the Sansetsukon might be the better choice. 1d10 19-20/2 vs Temple Sword's 1d8 19-20/2, so better damage in the early levels. Both weigh the same and the Sansetsukon is even 22gp cheaper!
We should to comb through the list to see if there's a weapon with the 'monk' special property (UnMonk gets proficiency) and 18-20/2 crit range.
EDIT: Spelling.
I'll admit, I was inclined myself to sugest that weapon, but I felt that getting something 'keen'able would be preferrable.
I wouldn't go out of my way to get high crit weapons via feats adn such, but just a +1 property? Sure.
d20pfsrd often has errors. The most recent Paizo weapon group listing is this blog post, and temple swords aren't in the Monk weapon group.
Monk: Bo staff, brass knuckles, butterfly sword, cestus, dan bong, deer horn knife, double chained kama, double chicken saber, emei piercer, fighting fan, hanbo, jutte, kama, kusarigama, kyoketsu shoge, lungchuan tamo, monk's spade, nine-ring broadsword, nine-section whip, nunchaku, quarterstaff, rope dart, sai, sansetsukon, seven-branched sword, shang gou, shuriken, siangham, tiger fork, tonfa, tri-point double-edged sword, unarmed strike, urumi, and wushu dart
I've seen the list with temple sword on it on other sites too.
Checking...hmm...it seems like it was listed under monk group in Humans of Golarion, if my source is correct.
In any case, even if Temple Sword is included the Sansetsukon might be the better choice. 1d10 19-20/2 vs Temple Sword's 1d8 19-20/2, so better damage in the early levels. Both weigh the same and the Sansetsukon is even 22gp cheaper!
We should to comb through the list to see if there's a weapon with the 'monk' special property (UnMonk gets proficiency) and 18-20/2 crit range.
EDIT: Spelling.
I'll admit, I was inclined myself to sugest that weapon, but I felt that getting something 'keen'able would be preferrable.
I wouldn't go out of my way to get high crit weapons via feats adn such, but just a +1 property? Sure.
I'd say that's your mistake. The feat/item/attribute economy of each class is different.
Unchained Monks HAVE extra feats to spend on style feats and such. They value feats less. It's why Dual Talent is always the best choice for Human Monks too.
In any case, even if Temple Sword is included the Sansetsukon might be the better choice. 1d10 19-20/2 vs Temple Sword's 1d8 19-20/2, so better damage in the early levels. Both weigh the same and the Sansetsukon is even 22gp cheaper!
We should to comb through the list to see if there's a weapon with the 'monk' special property (UnMonk gets proficiency) and 18-20/2 crit range.
EDIT: Spelling.
I'll admit, I was inclined myself to sugest that weapon, but I felt that getting something 'keen'able would be preferrable.
I wouldn't go out of my way to get high crit weapons via feats adn such, but just a +1 property? Sure.
d20pfsrd often has errors. The most recent Paizo weapon group listing is this blog post, and temple swords aren't in the Monk weapon group.
Monk: Bo staff, brass knuckles, butterfly sword, cestus, dan bong, deer horn knife, double chained kama, double chicken saber, emei piercer, fighting fan, hanbo, jutte, kama, kusarigama, kyoketsu shoge, lungchuan tamo, monk's spade, nine-ring broadsword, nine-section whip, nunchaku, quarterstaff, rope dart, sai, sansetsukon, seven-branched sword, shang gou, shuriken, siangham, tiger fork, tonfa, tri-point double-edged sword, unarmed strike, urumi, and wushu dartI've seen the list with temple sword on it on other sites too.
Checking...hmm...it seems like it was listed under monk group in Humans of Golarion, if my source is correct.
Yes, you are correct. "Temple Sword (heavy blades, monk):" It seems to be a weapon that got missed on the blog. It would be... odd to say the least if they removed it intentionally.
Ascetic Style at level 1 would allow you to use a temple sword to deliver stunning fists. Not too shabby.
Note that my build requires you to retrain Weapon Focus to Urumi at level 7. Now that I think about it, it'd be better to use Weapon Focus Temple Sword at level 1.
Elbow Smash is probably better because in the worst case scenario, you can knock your enemy out.
Temple sword isn't on the lists from the CRB, UC, UE, or the blog. So maybe Humans of Golarion just had it labeled incorrectly.
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It may be worth noting that with flurry you only get 1x damage on str for two handed weapons, not 1.5x
...A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands.
It may be worth noting that with flurry you only get 1x damage on str for two handed weapons, not 1.5x
...A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands.
They are talking about unchained flurry which does get 1.5x when you use it.
Temple sword isn't on the lists from the CRB, UC, UE, or the blog. So maybe Humans of Golarion just had it labeled incorrectly.
It would obviously not be in CRB- temple swords didn't exist then- they were an addition because...y'know. "Darn, we didn't give core monks good weapons". It is up there with the cestus. Not sure of teh publication dates for the rest though
I would imagine its exclusion is a more likely mistake than its inclusion. It was a random add on- making it VERY easy to forget to add in the various additions to the weapons lists to fighter groups.
And really- one of the monk's few good weapons are NOT included in the monk group? I can write off axe knuckles, but temple swords?
It may be worth noting that with flurry you only get 1x damage on str for two handed weapons, not 1.5x
...A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands.
And yet, both versions of flurry give you x1.5 power attack. Because taht feat has nothing to do with flurry, and flurry never mentions it. All the feat cares about "Are you using 2 handed, or 1 handed in two hands?"
So even core monks get an accumlative x2 str damage and x3 power attack across both 'hands' of their flurry.
But Unchained Monks literally get 1.5x STR to damage on attacks, Power Attack or not. You are missing out on 2+ damage, which starts to grow, and matters a lot for crit builds (due to the large chance this damage will be multiplied).
I don't get what you are trying to defend.
Unchained Monk is better at this than the Sohei. I get it that you like the archetype. It's really good for reach builds. It's good for rapier/scimitar crit fishing. But it's largely subpar for Urumi Ascetic Style shenenigans, because of reasons I mentioned previously.
But Unchained Monks literally get 1.5x STR to damage on attacks, Power Attack or not. You are missing out on 2+ damage, which starts to grow, and matters a lot for crit builds (due to the large chance this damage will be multiplied).
I don't get what you are trying to defend.
Unchained Monk is better at this than the Sohei. I get it that you like the archetype. It's really good for reach builds. It's good for rapier/scimitar crit fishing. But it's largely subpar for Urumi Ascetic Style shenenigans, because of reasons I mentioned previously.
And sohei get +1 to +5 extra damage from weapon training. So six of one...
Unmonk can be better at urumi shenanigans after spending a ton of feats just to be able to use the thing. That was my primary resistence against it in the beginning (and then we got sidetracked debating the merits of sohei vs unmonk, as well as questioning weapon groups and mechanics of the feat). It is possible to get better numbers, after experiencing a lot of pain. A classic theorycrafting conundrum.
I was more advocating the more direct and less complicated method (with some bias since I tend to prefer sohei).
Temple sword isn't on the lists from the CRB, UC, UE, or the blog. So maybe Humans of Golarion just had it labeled incorrectly.It would obviously not be in CRB- temple swords didn't exist then- they were an addition because...y'know. "Darn, we didn't give core monks good weapons". It is up there with the cestus. Not sure of teh publication dates for the rest though
I would imagine its exclusion is a more likely mistake than its inclusion. It was a random add on- making it VERY easy to forget to add in the various additions to the weapons lists to fighter groups.
And really- one of the monk's few good weapons are NOT included in the monk group? I can write off axe knuckles, but temple swords?
I didn't know the history behind the temple sword. Actually I didn't even notice it existed before these Ascetic Style discussions started. I feel sorry for Monks if that is one of their best weapons.
Isn't the iconic Monk usually shown wielding a Temple Sword? If it isn't a Monk weapon that would seem weird.
Temple sword isn't on the lists from the CRB, UC, UE, or the blog. So maybe Humans of Golarion just had it labeled incorrectly.It would obviously not be in CRB- temple swords didn't exist then- they were an addition because...y'know. "Darn, we didn't give core monks good weapons". It is up there with the cestus. Not sure of teh publication dates for the rest though
I would imagine its exclusion is a more likely mistake than its inclusion. It was a random add on- making it VERY easy to forget to add in the various additions to the weapons lists to fighter groups.
And really- one of the monk's few good weapons are NOT included in the monk group? I can write off axe knuckles, but temple swords?
I didn't know the history behind the temple sword. Actually I didn't even notice it existed before these Ascetic Style discussions started. I feel sorry for Monks if that is one of their best weapons.
Isn't the iconic Monk usually shown wielding a Temple Sword? If it isn't a Monk weapon that would seem weird.
Well, it has the same stats as a longsword, and it can be used in a flurry. So it isn't too bad a weapon. Overall, it is servicable- decent stats, adn it is a 2 handable weapon (that isn't wooden, like the quarterstaff), letting them take advantage of high amounts of power attack during flurry.
It is usually seen as one of the better weapons for core monks since it was one of the few weapons they were proficient in. A lot of monk weapons are martial or exotic. Unmonk doesn't have a problem with proficiency, since they get all monk weapons...not that they need too, since most monk weapons fall VERY deeply into the 'why bother?' scale of weaponry. The only obvious step up with the change was the sansetsukon... which has similar stats to the temple sword, just 1 more average point of damage more and bludgeoning.
Unmonk doesn't have a problem with proficiency, since they get all monk weapons...Actually unmonks get all weapons with the 'monk' special property. This tends to overlap with the fighter monk weapons group, but there are exceptions. The Urumi is in the fighter monk weapons group but does not have the monk special property, hence why the unmonk needs Ascetic Form to flurry with it.
Yeah, that was what I said (comparing weapons with the monk special)...but unfortunately, this is a 'brawler/brawler/brawling/brawling' situation.