Valder's page

Ok, thanks for the clarification.

No. an Urumi is not a finessable weapon and being able to apply feats that apply to unarmed strikes wouldn't change that. However, you could finesse one by taking Fighter's Finesse advanced weapon training. You would need to be a Sohei to take it as a monk though.

I'm more looking at the section of Ascetic Style that says "as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike, as if attacks with the weapon were unarmed attacks." My interpretation is that we are not finessing the 1h weapon, we are finessing a weapon that is being treated if it were an unarmed strike.

Still, it hinges on whether changing from str-to-hit to dex-to-hit is considered an effect that augments unarmed strike.

Would the combination of Weapon Focus (urumi) + Ascetic Style + Weapon Finesse allow a monk to finesse an urumi?

Valder wrote:

In any case, even if Temple Sword is included the Sansetsukon might be the better choice. 1d10 19-20/2 vs Temple Sword's 1d8 19-20/2, so better damage in the early levels. Both weigh the same and the Sansetsukon is even 22gp cheaper!

We should to comb through the list to see if there's a weapon with the 'monk' special property (UnMonk gets proficiency) and 18-20/2 crit range.

EDIT: Spelling.

I'll admit, I was inclined myself to sugest that weapon, but I felt that getting something 'keen'able would be preferrable.

I wouldn't go out of my way to get high crit weapons via feats adn such, but just a +1 property? Sure.

It occurs to me that if we took Improved Critical (unarmed strike) it would, through Ascetic Style, apply to all monk weapons.

lemeres wrote:

Gisher wrote:

Temple sword isn't on the lists from the CRB, UC, UE, or the blog. So maybe Humans of Golarion just had it labeled incorrectly.

It would obviously not be in CRB- temple swords didn't exist then- they were an addition because...y'know. "Darn, we didn't give core monks good weapons". It is up there with the cestus. Not sure of teh publication dates for the rest though

I would imagine its exclusion is a more likely mistake than its inclusion. It was a random add on- making it VERY easy to forget to add in the various additions to the weapons lists to fighter groups.

And really- one of the monk's few good weapons are NOT included in the monk group? I can write off axe knuckles, but temple swords?

I didn't know the history behind the temple sword. Actually I didn't even notice it existed before these Ascetic Style discussions started. I feel sorry for Monks if that is one of their best weapons.

Isn't the iconic Monk usually shown wielding a Temple Sword? If it isn't a Monk weapon that would seem weird.

The iconic monk for me are the Shaolin monks swinging staffs around. There is also some bias there because I do swing a staff around myself. It makes me sad that the quarterstaff/bo staff are such sub-optimal choices. I would love a viable bo staff build, and to be honest that was my initial intention when looking over Ascetic Style.

Unmonk doesn't have a problem with proficiency, since they get all monk weapons...

Actually unmonks get all weapons with the 'monk' special property. This tends to overlap with the fighter monk weapons group, but there are exceptions. The Urumi is in the fighter monk weapons group but does not have the monk special property, hence why the unmonk needs Ascetic Form to flurry with it.

Ascetic Style at level 1 would allow you to use a temple sword to deliver stunning fists. Not too shabby.

Note that my build requires you to retrain Weapon Focus to Urumi at level 7. Now that I think about it, it'd be better to use Weapon Focus Temple Sword at level 1.

Elbow Smash is probably better because in the worst case scenario, you can knock your enemy out.

Using Ascetic Style for stunning fist and other feats at level one would indeed require weapon focus in the weapon used to do so. Once we hit level 5 though we can use Ascetic Style with ANY monk weapon, including the urumi (though we would need proficiency).

Instead of retraining weapon focus to the urumi, it makes more sense to retrain it to unarmed strike (or just not retrain it if we started it on unarmed strike). This is because using Ascetic Style with any monk weapon lets us apply "effects that augment unarmed strikes", which weapon focus (unarmed strike) should qualify for.

Essentially, with Ascetic Style after level 5 our weapon focus (unarmed strike) acts as weapon focus (monk weapon).

It may be worth noting that with flurry you only get 1x damage on str for two handed weapons, not 1.5x

PSRD-monk flurry ability wrote:

...A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands.

That is the Monk Flurry of Blows. The Unchained Monk Flurry of Blows lacks that section and makes no mention of Strength bonuses.

H. WF (Unarmed)

1. Ascetic Style
M1. Whatever
M2. Whatever
3. Power Attack
5. Ascetic Form
M6. Whatever
7. Exotic Weapon Prof: Urumi
9. Improved Critical
M10. Medusa's Wrath
11. Critical Focus
13. Staggering Critical
M14. Whatever
15. Whatever
17. Stunning Critical
So Ascetic Style Medusa's Wrath it is?

I like your build above, but is there a reason to take Ascetic Style at level 1? It is dead weight until level 5, wouldn't it be better to switch with Power Attack so that it would be available earlier?

Regarding the style strikes how would the regular extra attack from Elbow Smash compare to an extra chance to proc stagger (and thus Medusa's Wrath) every Flurry via Head-Butt?

For an Esoteric Magus, who normally can only use Spellstrike with unarmed strikes, Ascetic Style with a keen urumi offers both monk damage and Spellstrike with a really good chance of doubling your spell damage. Plus an adamantine urumi would be nice to overcome hardness.

That does sound like it would be quite useful. I'm sure there are many other brawler type archetypes that would benefit. I did look into the Elemental Ascetic Kineticist before posting, but am unsure if Ascetic Form would trump their Elemental Flurry class ability.

d20pfsrd often has errors. The most recent Paizo weapon group listing is this blog post, and temple swords aren't in the Monk weapon group.

Paizo Blog wrote:

Monk: Bo staff, brass knuckles, butterfly sword, cestus, dan bong, deer horn knife, double chained kama, double chicken saber, emei piercer, fighting fan, hanbo, jutte, kama, kusarigama, kyoketsu shoge, lungchuan tamo, monk's spade, nine-ring broadsword, nine-section whip, nunchaku, quarterstaff, rope dart, sai, sansetsukon, seven-branched sword, shang gou, shuriken, siangham, tiger fork, tonfa, tri-point double-edged sword, unarmed strike, urumi, and wushu dart

Thank you kindly.

The Urumi is on the list, though we'd still need to spend an Exotic Weapon Proficiency on it.

Ascetic Form is required for Flurry only if the monk weapon we are wielding does not have the 'monk' special property. The main reason an Unchained Monk will take this feat is to apply style strikes with our weapon.

That said, we do seem to be using this feat in a roundabout way, which I think merits some discussion.

1. Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) means our "chosen melee weapon" is unarmed strike.
2. Ascetic Form allows our unarmed strike to apply class abilities and style strikes.
3. Ascetic Style + level 5 monk allows us to apply "effects that augment an unarmed strike" to any monk weapon as if it were an unarmed strike.
4. Any monk weapon we wield can apply class abilities and style strikes.

Is this kosher?

EDIT: Clarity.

Perfect Strike doesn't affect unarmed strikes, so Ascetic Style d oes nothing for it.

Ascetic Style reads "you can apply the effects of feats that have IUS as a pre-req." I am not sure how those would interact, but I suppose you could limit yourself to one of the listed weapons for Perfect Strike.

EDIT: Actually I take that back. On a closer read it does seem clear that Perfect Strike wouldn't work with Ascetic Style, unless you chose to use a quarterstaff! I've always wanted a staff build....

MONK
Bo staff, brass knuckles, butterfly sword, cestus, dan bong, double chained kama, double chicken saber, emei piercer, fighting fan, jutte, kama, kusarigama, kyoketsu shoge, lungchuan tamo, monk's spade, nine-ring broadsword, nine-section whip, nunchaku, quarterstaff, rope dart, sai, sansetsukon, seven-branched sword, shang gou, shuriken, siangham, tiger fork, tonfa, tri-point double-edged sword, unarmed strike, urumi, and wushu dart

Notice the lack of temple sword. If you can find somewhere where it says it's added to this list that'd be great cause I'd love to use a temple sword with Ascetic style.

I was going off the list in here.

In any case, even if Temple Sword is included the Sansetsukon might be the better choice. 1d10 19-20/2 vs Temple Sword's 1d8 19-20/2, so better damage in the early levels. Both weigh the same and the Sansetsukon is even 22gp cheaper!

We should to comb through the list to see if there's a weapon with the 'monk' special property (UnMonk gets proficiency) and 18-20/2 crit range.

EDIT: Spelling.

Ascetic style isn't concerned with weapons with the monk property, but weapons that are in the 'monk' group for fighter weapon training.

I suppose with the rest of the feat talking about the Fighter monk group twice this is a natural conclusion. It's just the last words were monk weapon and lack of specific language made me default to weapons with the 'monk' special property.

Thanks for the clarification.

And yet another feat (ascetic strike). So I am unsure how serious it is in gameplay.

I looked at Ascetic Strike but with the ruling on Feral Combat Training most monks should have no business taking that. Ascetic Style for applying feats and damage, Ascetic Form for class abilities like Flurry.

Weapon Adept?

A Weapon Adept monk does seem like it would be much stronger with Ascetic Style+Form. It lacks the pounce of Flying Kick though, and we wouldn't be able to get one through a Style Feat.

I'd say:

H. WF (Unarmed)
1. Ascetic Style
M1. Whatever
M2. Whatever
3. Power Attack
5. Ascetic Form
M6. Whatever
7. Exotic Weapon Prof: Urumi

The problem with this is that the Urumi is not a weapon with the 'monk' special property, and thus does not benefit from Ascetic Style. It has to be your 'Chosen Weapon' when you take the feat.

Thanks for the advice though.

EDIT: Grammar.

The idea was to combine the scaling unarmed damage of the monk with the higher crit range of a weapon. This scaling only really kicks in at the higher levels, though a Monk's Robe helps. The weapon should also count as a natural attack, and should benefit from Blessed Fist and Strong Jaw beyond the usual buffs.

The criticism, if I understand it so far, seems to be the lack of Power Attack, being unable to Flurry with the chosen weapon in the beginning, and just being lacking in comparison to a Sohei.

First, it seems that no one has objected to my interpretation of the feats and their interaction with class abilities.

Secondly, I would like to point out that, for the first 5 levels, it is totally possible to flurry with feet!

... don't look at me like that. :)

At the root of things I am simply exploring the idea of the Ascetic Style feat and how it might be used effectively. If you have a better suggestion or idea please share.

An alternative that gives up the Urumi and that starts with unarmed strikes but switches to a monk weapon at level 5 would look like:

H: Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
1: Power Attack or whatever
3: whatever
5: Ascetic Style -> Can now be used with all monk weapons

Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) will now apply to all monk weapons, so just pick one 19-20/2 weapon with the 'monk' and without the 'double' special property.

Here is an idea I had for an Unchained Monk build.

Unchained Monk

H: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Urumi)
1: Weapon Focus (Urumi)

The Urumi is in the Fighter's 'Monk' weapon group. This qualifies us for:

3: Ascetic Style

We can now use the Urumi to apply Stunning Fist and other feats like Deflect Arrows. Based on this FAQ on Feral Combat Training, we can use the Monk unarmed damage with our chosen weapon.

5: Ascetic Form

At this point we can Flurry and apply Style Strikes with an 18-20/2 weapon using Monk unarmed damage. We get 1.5 Str bonus per hit for 2 handing, and only need to enchant 1 weapon. Just add Keen/Improved Critical and go from there.

Note that if we had chosen a weapon with the 'Monk' special property we would not need the Ascetic Form feat to Flurry. Not sure about Style Strikes, but we could still do Flying Kick and Head-Butt. A Temple Sword (19-20/2) build would come online at level 1.

Thoughts? Have I misinterpreted something? How can this be improved?

1. Echoing Spell + Spell Perfection. Does the echoed spell maintain the doubled benefit from Spell Focus/Penetration etc?

I could see this argued both ways.

2. Echoing Spell + Shadow Conjuration. Does the echoed Shadow Conjuration have to mimic the same spell? Can we go Echoed Shadow Conjuration (Grease) -> Free Shadow Conjuration (Create Pit)?

I lean towards yes, because a prepared caster prepares Echoing Shadow Conjuration not Echoing Shadow Conjuration (Grease).