So, recenly I started considering what I wanted to do with my PFS fighter (currently lvl 4), and decided that all things considered I wanted a vital strike build for late game. That got me interessed in how to build such a character efficently and I believe I found a decent way to do it, although it's not superoptimal (or only focused on vital strike) I'm happy with the future developments I envision for the character.
That said I wanted to ask what in your opinion is the best way to build a vital striker with core races. What's your take on this?
Tiefling with Oversized Limbs + Large Greatsword (or Huge Bastard Sword depending on RAI) + Abyssal Bloodrager (Demonic Bulk) + Impact.
If no Tiefling then you gotta suck it up and go Titan Mauler, and find some other way of getting easy access to Enlarge Person.
Enlarge person costs 50gp for a potion. Reliable and effective way to get it and well before lvl 14.
You can get to use a large greatsword through a couple of archetypes (titan mauler or Titan fighter) but I personally think a large bastard sword is better because you can use it with effortless lace, reducing the -2 penalty to hit to nothing. With enlarge person and then impact you are looking for something like 4d8 damage dices before factoring anything else.
Enlarge Person for free whenever you rage is significantly better than wasting a turn drinking a potion.
As I mentioned, Huge Bastard Sword is absolutely a possibility with the Tiefling when you add in Effortless Lace but it's a bit too cheesy for my taste.
Enlarge Person for free whenever you rage is significantly better than wasting a turn drinking a potion.
As I mentioned, Huge Bastard Sword is absolutely a possibility with the Tiefling when you add in Effortless Lace but it's a bit too cheesy for my taste.
You have to wait until level 14 in order to get Titanic Rage and it halves your rage rounds leaving you exhausted when you stop. So, while it's true that the action economy is way better with Titan Mauler it's a bit too late game to be a a real concern. You get to use enlarge person right from the start in a reliable way instead.
As for tiefling it's certainly great since it allows you to get to potentially reach colossal weapon dice damage but that's not core and I'm not sure that effortless lace is cheesy on top of that build.
I'm not sure what the titan mauler is supposed to accomplish here anyway. According to the FAQ it cannot use two-handed weapons for larger creatures than itself. Which contradicts the actual explicit wording o the massive weapons rule, but the whole archetype is a mess.
So I'd just go with the abyssal bloodline bloodrager. You can use a larger bastard sword or dwarven waraxe with exotic weapon proficiency (which you get for free in the case of the axe if you're a dwarf), a large bastard sword/dwarven waraxe deals 2d8 damage, if you enlarge yourself with abyssal bloodrage that becomes 3d8
You have to wait until level 14 in order to get Titanic Rage and it halves your rage rounds leaving you exhausted when you stop. So, while it's true that the action economy is way better with Titan Mauler it's a bit too late game to be a a real concern. You get to use enlarge person right from the start in a reliable way instead.
What are you talking about?
Demonic Bulk (Su)At 4th level, when entering a bloodrage, you can choose to grow one size category larger than your base size (as enlarge person) even if you aren't humanoid.
Enlarge Person for free whenever you rage is significantly better than wasting a turn drinking a potion.
Ummm.... Can't you drink a potion before you kick in a door?
Titan mauler, he was thinking of.
I believe they fixed the archetype in the last errata as well, so it finally matches the intent.
As far as large damage dice go, I've built characters like this myself. You're essentially limited to three things: actual size increases (enlarge person), wielding larger weapons, and making weapons count as larger (Impact or lead blades). It's possible I'm missing something though.
Some of those categories I mentioned can be more than one step, depending on the ability in question.
You have to wait until level 14 in order to get Titanic Rage and it halves your rage rounds leaving you exhausted when you stop. So, while it's true that the action economy is way better with Titan Mauler it's a bit too late game to be a a real concern. You get to use enlarge person right from the start in a reliable way instead.
What are you talking about?
Demonic Bulk (Su)At 4th level, when entering a bloodrage, you can choose to grow one size category larger than your base size (as enlarge person) even if you aren't humanoid.
I was talking about titan mauler, it seems you were talking about the tiefling which is not an option as I stated I was talking about core races.
Bloodrager is a good idea for action economy but personally I prefer a mutation warrior, then large bastard sword held 2 handed (you don't need proficency with it then) and potion or helpful spellcaster. Later on effortless lace and impact (probably around level 6-7). Gorum's swordmanship is something to consider too (use vital strike when charging and on an attack of opportunity).
You don't need to be a tiefling to be an abyssal bloodrager, it is however the only way for a tiefling to gain the effects of enlarge person.
And that spell for divine casters that makes them large.
You could also go druid (Ape Shaman) until 6 so you can wildshape into a huge gorilla. It also gives you some spellcasting for some nice self buffs. A small hit to your BaB, but if you take the rest as a fighter you will get that vital strike in no time.
And that spell for divine casters that makes them large.
Which is pretty redundant since it's a 5th level spell and comes online when most camapigns are ending.
I'll concede to Pass for Human though, despite thinking it's honestly a poor option.
Yeah, it's not very relevant in this case. Though in my experience most campaigns go a decent bit beyond 9th level.
Darn aasimar get all the good traits over tieflings. :P
Effortless lace isn't pfs legal. To wield a large bastard sword you need the feat. A bastard sword can be wielded in two hand as a martial weapon. Thus you can't go larger since you're already at two handed
Technically a bastard sword is one-handed, but I think you'd take non-proficiency penalties for using a large one without the feat.
A bastard sword is one handed if you have the feat or are otherwise proficient with it, otherwise it's a two handed martial weapon. Thus you need the feat to wield a large one as it already is a two handed.
There were big threads about that which I believe ended in an FAQ stating it's a one-handed weapon that can become martial if wielded in two hands. It's like wielding a longsword in two hands -- still a one-handed weapon.
But like I said, I think you'd still take -4 for not being proficient even when two-handing a large bastard sword. At least, that makes the most sense to me.
edit: FAQ. Though I admit after reading it I'm a bit more confused. Eh, nothing I care about all that much.
As far as I understand (might be wrong though) if you use a bastard sword 2 handed it counts as a martial weapon so you don't get the penalty for using weapons you are not proficient with (if you are proficient with martial weapons, of course). The fact that you can whield it as a 2 handed weapon doesn't change the fact a b.sword is really a one handed weapon so you can whield it even if it's large by 2 handed whielding it, albeit with a -2 penalty. That's my take reading the FAQ at least
As far as I understand (might be wrong though) if you use a bastard sword 2 handed it counts as a martial weapon so you don't get the penalty for using weapons you are not proficient with (if you are proficient with martial weapons, of course). The fact that you can whield it as a 2 handed weapon doesn't change the fact a b.sword is really a one handed weapon so you can whield it even if it's large by 2 handed whielding it, albeit with a -2 penalty. That's my take reading the FAQ at least
But what would a large bastard sword be if you do have the EWP? Or does proficiency actually have absolutely zero benefit in this case?
And speaking of, treating an exotic weapon as martial costs a mere 1.5k, so if you do benefit from being proficient, it's easily worth that very minor additional cost.
Anyhow, I don't think anything can compete with a monk's/brawler's UAS die, which you can apply to close weapons via the brawler's Close Weapon Mastery at 5th, or to monk weapons via Ascetic Strike. If you take the latter option, you can also easily complement it with Monastic Legacy so you can be any class and still get the maximum 2d10 (medium size) base weapon die, though I'd still take at least one level monk in order to be able to use a Monk's Robe. If you increase the monk max UAS base damage with a large weapon (+ effortless lace), a size increase and strong jaw (which applies thanks to Ascetic Style), you should end up with 12d8 before applying Vital Strike multipliers.
Bastard sword no EWP is a two-handed martial weapon. You can't wield it one handed at all. You can't wield a large at all.
Bastard Sword with EWP is a one-handed exotic weapon. You can wield it one handed. The way you're wielding it determines which kind of handedness it is. You can wield a large one as a two-handed with the -2 for inappropriately sized.
Bastard sword no EWP is a two-handed martial weapon. You can't wield it one handed at all. You can't wield a large at all.
Bastard Sword with EWP is a one-handed exotic weapon. You can wield it one handed. The way you're wielding it determines which kind of handedness it is. You can wield a large one as a two-handed with the -2 for inappropriately sized.
Bastard sword is still a bastard sword which the game considers a one handed weapon that CAN be whielded two handed. Whielding it that way doesn't change what the bastard sword is, a one handed weapon.
Also bastard sword WHEN WHIELDED TWO HANDED is considered a martial weapon FOR THE PURPOSES OF DETERMINING PROFICENCY. So, someone whielding a bastard sword two handed doesn't need to be proficent with the blade and doesn't incurr in any penalties for doing so as long as he's proficent with martial weapons.A LARGE bastard sword is still a one handed weapon. You must whield it 2 handed if you are medium size but this doesn't change the fact the weapon is one handed, and whielding a bastard sword 2 handed just requires martial proficency.
That said I realize this is way to rule lawyery and if I was DMing someone wanting to do this I'll probably ask for him to take the exotic proficency too.
Here is the FAQ that I'm using
Exotic Weapons and Hands: If a weapon is wielded two-handed as a martial weapon and one-handed with an exotic weapon proficiency, can I wield it one-handed without the exotic proficiency at a –4 penalty?
No.
Note that normally you can't wield a two-handed weapon in one hand. A bastard sword is an exception to that rule that you can't wield a two-handed weapon in one hand, but you must have special training to use the bastard sword this way. Without that special training, wielding a bastard sword one-handed is as impossible as wielding a greatsword one-handed.
(The same goes for other weapons with this one-handed exotic exception, such as the dwarven waraxe.)
If you don't have the feat it's a two-handed just like a greatsword. So if you're already using two hands to wield one your size you can't make it larger. Because the bastard sword translates based on the intended size. A large bastard sword is an exotic one-handed or a martial two-handed. A large two-handed can't be wielded by a normal medium person. Thus without the feat it's too big for you to use. With the feat it's a large one-handed which can be used as a two-handed for medium characters.
So you can't wield a b.sword one handed unless you have exotic weapon proficency. That's ok, but as pointed out above a bastard sword is a ONE HANDED WEAPON even if you whield it 2 handed, as stated in this FAQ
Bastard Sword: Is this a one-handed weapon or a two-handed weapon?A bastard sword is a one-handed weapon (although for some rules it blurs the line between a one-handed and a two-handed weapon).
The physical properties of a bastard sword are that of a one-handed weapon. For example, its hardness, hit points, ability to be crafted out of special materials, category for using the Craft skill, effect of alchemical silver, and so on, are all that of a one-handed weapon.
For class abilities, feats, and other rule elements that vary based on or specifically depend on wielding a one-handed weapon, a two-handed weapon, or a one-handed weapon with two hands, the bastard sword counts as however many hands you are using to wield it.
For example, if you are wielding it one-handed (which normally requires the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat), it is treated as a one-handed weapon; Power Attack only gets the one-handed bonus, you cannot use Pushing Assault or Shield of Swings (which require a two-handed weapon), and so on.
If you are wielding it with two hands (whether or not you have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency to wield it with one hand), it is treated as a two-handed weapon; Power Attack gets the increased damage bonus, you can use Pushing Assault or Shield of Swings (which require a two-handed weapon), and so on.
An unusual case of the handedness rule is an ability that allows you to treat a two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon. For example, the titan mauler's jotungrip (which allows you to wield a two-handed weapon with one hand) allows you to wield a bastard sword in one hand even without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and (as the ability states) treats it as a one-handed weapon, therefore it is treated as a one-handed weapon for other effects.
We're getting off-topic. Take it to the rules forum.
I hate my signal. Had a longer post, bUT why does nobody want Earthbreaker for the extra die step? 2d6 base?
Because you can wield a 1-handed weapon intended for a creature one size category larger than you as a 2-handed weapon, and thus a 1d10 damage medium 1-handed weapon (bastard sword, dwarven waraxe etc) becomes a 2d8 damage 2-handed weapon when large. And since no core race can wield a larger 2-handed weapon, the earth breaker is suboptimal for a vital strike build. And being on the d10/d8 damage die size increase track is of course an advantage that just grows the more damage die size increases and VS feats you add.
Also growing weapon is nice for the bbeg.
Well, maybe if you have no other access to "virtual" damage die size increases and during levels before you can use/afford (a wand of) lead blades or an impact weapon. I think growing is better for a build relying on combat maneuvers than it is for a VS damage dealer.
you can wield an earthbreaker as a one handed weapon. Thus making it a 2d6 one handed weapon and the best for vital strikes, because a large becomes 3d6 instead of 2d8, 4d6 instead of 3d8, and 6d6 instead of 4d8
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you can wield an earthbreaker as a one handed weapon. Thus making it a 2d6 one handed weapon and the best for vital strikes, because a large becomes 3d6 instead of 2d8, 4d6 instead of 3d8, and 6d6 instead of 4d8
If I'm reading Thunder and Fang correctly, it looks like the earthbreaker only counts as one-handed so long as you are also wielding a klar. This suggests that a large earthbreaker would not be possible so the comparison for a starting point would be 2d6 (medium 2h earthbreaker) vs 2d8 (large 2h bastard sword w/ EWP or ioun). Is that correct?
Benefit: You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon.
Nothing says, "Benefit: You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon, while wielding a klar in your other hand." or anything else limiting when you can wield an earthbreaker one-handed.
Thus making the starting point 3d6 for a large earthbreaker.
And now we've moved from debating bastard swords to the Thunder and Fang debacle. There's a rules forum for this guys!
Like herding chickens. :P
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Benefit: You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon.
Nothing says, "Benefit: You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon, while wielding a klar in your other hand." or anything else limiting when you can wield an earthbreaker one-handed.
Thus making the starting point 3d6 for a large earthbreaker.
Yes, on a second read through, you are absolutely correct. Although that would be quite an investment in a specific TWF style to then fight with a large 2h weapon. Could switch hit between 'big papa' and 'mini-me' + klar for defense I suppose.
And now we've moved from debating bastard swords to the Thunder and Fang debacle. There's a rules forum for this guys!
Like herding chickens. :P
I don't know that a questioning of advice given in the advice forums warrants a migration to the rules forum. ;) p.s. I believe the divine 'enlarge' you mentioned is Righteous Might (Cleric SL5, personal), at least that is the only one that came to mind.
But yeah, aside from weapon choices, as others have mentioned: enlarge/demonic bulk, impact/lead blades, large weapon. I was just reading some threads on improved natural attack, feral combat training, and strong jaw combos if you'd like to try a natural/unarmed attack route.