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This is my 3rd posting regarding this spell. This spell is so ambiguous with its wording, I'm thinking of banning it altogether, but would rather find a better reasoning to allowing it. Yes, this all started when a Sorcerer in my campaign picked this spell, and effectively stopped 2 glabrezus in their tracks (fudged their saves so only 1 was affected at a time).
Now to my next question....
The last sentance of this spell indicates that a creature can break the ice as a full-round action with a successful Strength check. Is this true for the "helpless" creature, or only the "entangled" creature? If the helpless creature can try to break free, then it wouldn't truly be helpless and thus could use spell-like abilities (i.e. mental actions).
Just trying to iron this spell out before the next session since I'm sure this question (and the others I brought up in earlier posts) will come up. This caused a lot of confusion at the table during last session.
Thanks all!
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"If the creature fails its save, it is helpless, but can still breathe... A creature can break the ice as a full-round action with a successful Strength check (DC 15 + your caster level)."
"A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier)."
"A character with a Dexterity score of 0 is incapable of moving and is effectively immobile (but not unconscious)."
Kinda ambiguous. I would lean towards saying that if you can't move, you can't try to break the ice.
If you gain the Entangled condition from Icy Prison, it's because you made the Save and you're not encased in Ice, so no Strength check can be performed. If you gain the Helpless condition from Icy Prison, it's because you failed the Save, and you ARE encased in Ice, and you can perform a Str check each round to break free.
Yeah this spell is worded kinda wonky and ambiguous.
It should be that if you're encased in the ice, you can make a Str check to burst free from it, and if you're an ally of the encased person, you can swing a weapon and deal damage vs. hardness 0 and 3 hit points per inch of thickness and free them. Although it doesn't say this in the spell, but allies of the encased person can also perform Aid Another to provide a bonus to the encased person's Str check. You're better off swinging a weapon though. At level 9, this ice would have 27 HP, which any martial would pulverize in a heartbeat.
Considering that the part that describe the action to break free is at the end or the description, after they explain that creature that succeed is entangled, i would say that the helpless creature wouldn't be allowed to roll RAW. No exception is specified for helpless creature, so i think the condition would stop a creature to attempt to break free.
For RAI, i'd say it's unclear. It seems to me like a classic case of multiple author misscomunication. It's always though to interpret RAI anyway.
As for how i'd rule it? I would definitely allow helpless creature to attempt an escape, the spell stays powerful enough as it is, otherwise it's almost a save or die.
Icy Prison
School evocation [cold]; Level sorcerer/wizard 5
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, SEFFECT
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target one creature
Duration 1 minute/level; see text
Saving Throw Reflex partial; Spell Resistance yesDESCRIPTION
You trap the target in solid ice 1 inch thick per caster level. If the creature fails its save, it is helpless, but can still breathe (the ice blocks line of effect to the target). If the target makes its save, it gains the entangled condition but can otherwise act normally. Whether or not the target saves, it takes 1 point of cold damage per caster level each round it is helpless or entangled in the ice. The ice has hardness 0 and 3 hit points per inch of thickness; if broken, the creature is freed. A creature can break the ice as a full-round action with a successful Strength check (DC 15 + your caster level).
I'd say it's both RAW and RAI that the target creature is allowed to make a Str check to break the ice, regardless of whether the creature is "helpless" or not.
I'd say it's both RAW and RAI that the target creature is allowed to make a Str check to break the ice, regardless of whether the creature is "helpless" or not.Icy Prison
School evocation [cold]; Level sorcerer/wizard 5
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, SEFFECT
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target one creature
Duration 1 minute/level; see text
Saving Throw Reflex partial; Spell Resistance yesDESCRIPTION
You trap the target in solid ice 1 inch thick per caster level. If the creature fails its save, it is helpless, but can still breathe (the ice blocks line of effect to the target). If the target makes its save, it gains the entangled condition but can otherwise act normally. Whether or not the target saves, it takes 1 point of cold damage per caster level each round it is helpless or entangled in the ice. The ice has hardness 0 and 3 hit points per inch of thickness; if broken, the creature is freed. A creature can break the ice as a full-round action with a successful Strength check (DC 15 + your caster level).
I generally avoid RAI, as it's always subject to interpretation, but i guess i can conceed that point. RAW i'm still on the ''can't attempt'' side, but i'm unsure, it's really wonky.
RAW the creature can take a full-round action to break the ice. Under Helpless, it states that a creature has effectively a dexterity of 0. Under Dexterity, a creature with a dexterity score of 0 is unable to move.
Does breaking the ice with a full-round action constitute movement? I would say yes, but some might say that it's a special form of full-round action that doesn't require movement. Given that it's a strength check, i would say it require movement, which a helpless creature would not be able to make. Then again the creature can breathe, which constitute some kind of movement.
everywhere else in the spell, the target is “the target” or “the creature”, except for the strength check where it is “a creature”, implying that the rules for that sentence are independent of whether the creature making the check is the target.I'd say it's both RAW and RAI that the target creature is allowed to make a Str check to break the ice, regardless of whether the creature is "helpless" or not.Icy Prison
School evocation [cold]; Level sorcerer/wizard 5
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, SEFFECT
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target one creature
Duration 1 minute/level; see text
Saving Throw Reflex partial; Spell Resistance yesDESCRIPTION
You trap the target in solid ice 1 inch thick per caster level. If the creature fails its save, it is helpless, but can still breathe (the ice blocks line of effect to the target). If the target makes its save, it gains the entangled condition but can otherwise act normally. Whether or not the target saves, it takes 1 point of cold damage per caster level each round it is helpless or entangled in the ice. The ice has hardness 0 and 3 hit points per inch of thickness; if broken, the creature is freed. A creature can break the ice as a full-round action with a successful Strength check (DC 15 + your caster level).
Good point, it might mean that ''a creature'' can be any creature, so an adjacent creature try the check.
You can make Strength checks to burst rope and webs while helpless, it's not far-fetched to say that a strength check could be performed here as well. And if we take a moment to reflect on that ancient adage "pathfinder is written by humans for humans, not by lawyers for lawyers", then it even says you can perform a Str check to burst the ice in the spell.
You can make Strength checks to burst rope and webs while helpless, it's not far-fetched to say that a strength check could be performed here as well. And if we take a moment to reflect on that ancient adage "pathfinder is written by humans for humans, not by lawyers for lawyers", then it even says you can perform a Str check to burst the ice in the spell.
I would need some example of spell or effect that makes creature helpless and allow them to still make checks. For ropes and for Web, it gives the pinned and entangled condition respectively. Both condition do not reduce the dexterity score to 0.
And if we take a moment to reflect on that ancient adage "pathfinder is written by humans for humans, not by lawyers for lawyers", then it even says you can perform a Str check to burst the ice in the spell.
It's also how i tend to play, hence why i mentionned earlier that i would personnally allow the strength check. I just feel like it's not totally RAW.
I don't think the author is being unintentionally missleading, and in the end, Pathfinder is a game, so what counts is having fun. As for pathfinder not being written for lawyers i wanna agree, i'm of the opinion that RAI is generally pretty hard to interpret so we are left with RAW until the author clarifies.
What if the author meant that the target of the spell could not attempt the check, because they thought it was clear that an helpless creature would not be able to attempt the check? Until we can get clarification, we are stuck trying to interpret what they meant with the word that was used. language they used.
In the end, the description being unclear just means we're stuck in a situation in which we can both be right. Which i guess is good enough for me, cause i think the creature should get a check.
I think next time would be to dig around and try to find an official answer.
Helpless
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, , sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets his sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.
Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace.
If you're bound in rope or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy (such as being stuck in a spider's web), you're helpless. And even while helpless, you're allowed to make Str checks and Escape Artist checks. I'm not talking about the Web spell, which doesn't create an actual web. An actual spiderweb causes you to be helpless.
A quick note on the web spell's effect
The spell web does not create a lone, giant spider's web that essentially renders creatures that fail the saving throw helpless like a spider's web does its prey but creates, instead, a wall-like mass of web-like strands that creatures can try to push their way through. The effect can secure unlucky, weaker creatures in their spaces, but those creatures are still capable of exerting force and struggling against the strands—and, with difficulty, making attacks and casting spells. So while the spell says, "These strands trap those caught in them," first it says, "Web creates a many-layered mass of strong, sticky strands." How the effect traps affected creatures is governed by the condition entangled and the remainder of the spell's description.
My 2 cents on the matter:
I treat the spell as if the person was encased almost entirely in ice. That means they are bound and held in place. They are not 'paralyzed'. They can move enough to breath and likely wiggle their fingers and toes. They can attempt to break free of the ice with a strength check, but that will only leave them entangled. Another strength check will completely free them from the effects of the spell.
Being covered in a minimum of 9 inches of ice is no laughing matter. Its pretty much a death sentence in real life, but in the Pathfinder universe? There is always a chance.
I read the helpless condition multiple time and i know it mention being bound, it also mention being paralyzed, sleeping, unconcious, etc. Being helpless is a condition that's inflicted on you when you're effectively unable to move.
Being helpless includes being ''bound'' but bound is not a condition, unlike paralyzed and unconcious. Neither the web ability nor being tied up inflicts being helpless.
Creatures with the web ability can use webs to support themselves and up to one additional creature of the same size. In addition, such creatures can throw a web up to eight times per day. This is similar to an attack with a net but has a maximum range of 50 feet, with a range increment of 10 feet, and is effective against targets up to one size category larger than the web spinner. An entangled creature can escape with a successful Escape Artist check or burst the web with a Strength check. Both are standard actions with a DC equal to 10 + 1/2 the creature’s HD + the creature’s Con modifier. Attempts to burst a web by those caught in it take a –4 penalty.
Web spinners can create sheets of sticky webbing up to three times their size. They usually position these sheets to snare flying creatures but can also try to trap prey on the ground. Approaching creatures must succeed on a DC 20 Perception check to notice a web; otherwise they stumble into it and become trapped as though by a successful web attack. Attempts to escape or burst the webbing gain a +5 bonus if the trapped creature has something to walk on or grab while pulling free. Each 5-foot-square section of web has a number of hit points equal to the Hit Dice of the creature that created it and DR 5/—.
A creature can move across its own web at its climb speed and can pinpoint the location of any creature touching its web.
Format: web (+8 ranged, DC 16, 5 hp); Location: Special Attacks.
Nowhere in the web ability does the condition helpless appears.
For ropes, the only thing i found is the ''tie up'' action under grapples:
If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target’s CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.
Bieng tied up works like the pin effect. The Pin effect, inflicts the pinned condition.
A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler’s CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.
Casting Spells while Pinned: The only spells which can be cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler’s CMB + the level of the spell you’re casting) or lose the spell.
Hence why i asked for example of things, outside icy prison, that inflicts the helpless condition and allow a check to break free. So far, ropes seems to inflict the pinned condition and web inflicts the entangled condition.
After a bit of digging on the SRD i found one item that might support your interpretation; The Rack.
The rack is one of the most infamous and feared devices in the torturer’s arsenal, capable of inflicting ruinous damage to a victim’s body. Helpless victims are splayed across the device’s frame, and each limb is lashed to a central windlass. Each turn of the crank deals a cumulative 1d6 points of nonlethal damage, up to 4d6 points of nonlethal damage on the fourth turn. Each subsequent turn after the fourth deals 4d6 points of nonlethal damage and deals 1 point of damage each to the victim’s Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores as it dislocates limbs, cracks cartilage, and breaks bone. Some racks are fitted with spiked wheels that puncture the victim’s body, dealing lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage. Escaping from a rack requires a successful DC 30 Escape Artist check.
If we look under Escape Artist, there's multiple action involved, the one that would the rack would be ''escape manacles''.
The DC to escape normal manacles is 30. The DC to escape masterwork manacles is 35.
Action Making an Escape Artist check to escape from rope bindings, manacles, or other restraints (except a grappler) requires 1 minute of work.
Retry? Varies. If the DC to escape from rope or bindings is higher than 20 + your Escape Artist skill bonus, you cannot escape from the bonds using Escape Artist.
If the rack does indeed keep the victim helpless, which i would assume considering they are bound, then it's a case of being helpless while still being able to make action. Then again, while it seems like RAI, it's still an interpretation that a rule lawyer could argue with. (Which i'm not trying to be)
In the end i was looking for quotes that support your claim that things that render you helpless generally allow you to make a str or escaped artist check.
I'm not saying you're wrong, just that i haven't found anything about web or rope inflicting the helpless condition while still allowing a strength or escape artist check. The rack seems like a plausible example.
In the end, I just wanna point out that i'm not trying to frustrate you or anything. I'm legitimately trying to find things within the rule that would be a clear way of solving the issue while staying within raw.
Did the target fail their save?
If Yes: the target is helpless, and helpless targets cannot move. There is no Strength check available to you because you are helpless. You ain't flexing your way out of 9 inches of ice. Any creature capable of making Strength checks can make a Strength check as a full round action to break the ice... except you, Mr Failed Save, you're still helpless...
If No: the target is entangled. We really don't have to discuss this part, though.
Wait, where and how, does this aforementioned 'not a valid target' appear?
Do Sorcerers have a Heads Up Display like a fighter jet?
Is the 4th wall actually a video game screen?
Do Sorcerers who think slowly have loading bars?
I think you guys are misunderstanding "is treated as having a Dex score of 0". That doesn't mean they are Dex 0 (i.e. paralyzed as per actual ability score description), it means that you give them a -5 to replace their actual Dex score for any skills, Ref saves, and AC. Helpless doesn't say that they can't even move, as you can be bound in rope but still able to slug your way around, but the spell tells you that the target is trapped as well as helpless.
My 2 cents on the matter:
I treat the spell as if the person was encased almost entirely in ice. That means they are bound and held in place. They are not 'paralyzed'. They can move enough to breath and likely wiggle their fingers and toes. They can attempt to break free of the ice with a strength check, but that will only leave them entangled. Another strength check will completely free them from the effects of the spell.
Being covered in a minimum of 9 inches of ice is no laughing matter. Its pretty much a death sentence in real life, but in the Pathfinder universe? There is always a chance.
It's how i would rule the spell in my home game, and i feel like it's how the spell was intented, because if we compare it to Ice Tomb, the Witches Major Hexes, that one does specify the target being paralyzed and unconcious. However, i'm still not sure if RAW a check would be allowed for a helpless creature. It all boils down to : Does that strength check involve movement? The spell does not say.
I think you guys are misunderstanding "is treated as having a Dex score of 0". That doesn't mean they are Dex 0 (i.e. paralyzed as per actual ability score description), it means that you give them a -5 to replace their actual Dex score for any skills, Ref saves, and AC. Helpless doesn't say that they can't even move, as you can be bound in rope but still able to slug your way around, but the spell tells you that the target is trapped as well as helpless.
It could have been intended that way, but treated as having a dex score of 0 must mean that it means more than just the modifier. They probably specified ''treated as'' for the purpose of ability drain.
everywhere else in the spell, the target is “the target” or “the creature”, except for the strength check where it is “a creature”, implying that the rules for that sentence are independent of whether the creature making the check is the target.I'd say it's both RAW and RAI that the target creature is allowed to make a Str check to break the ice, regardless of whether the creature is "helpless" or not.Icy Prison
School evocation [cold]; Level sorcerer/wizard 5
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, SEFFECT
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target one creature
Duration 1 minute/level; see text
Saving Throw Reflex partial; Spell Resistance yesDESCRIPTION
You trap the target in solid ice 1 inch thick per caster level. If the creature fails its save, it is helpless, but can still breathe (the ice blocks line of effect to the target). If the target makes its save, it gains the entangled condition but can otherwise act normally. Whether or not the target saves, it takes 1 point of cold damage per caster level each round it is helpless or entangled in the ice. The ice has hardness 0 and 3 hit points per inch of thickness; if broken, the creature is freed. A creature can break the ice as a full-round action with a successful Strength check (DC 15 + your caster level).
Agree that "a creature" is different than "the creature" or "the target". "A creature" however is inclusive of "the target", as opposed to "another creature". eg. the target of the spell is both "a creature" and "the target". It is allowed to try and free itself from icy prison with a strength check. Though it is mostly a moot point because the DC is so high - even with the glabrezu's 10 str mod, a 10th level sorcerer puts the DC at 25 - meaning a 15 or better on the d20 roll. And if the party is fighting 2 of them, our sorcerer is probably level 13+. Making the required roll 18 or more.
Being helpless does not mean you cannot take actions (eg, paralyzed: you can still take purely mental actions). Being helpless means you cannot move - this is more you cannot move around on the map, not that you can't wiggle your fingers (unless paralyzed specifically, or unconscious). If you can wiggle your fingers, you can flex your muscles (aka str check). That is, the method of helplessness is going to require some GM interpetation - but bound/held versions would not prevent any kind of motion of your arms/legs, where as paralyzed version would. IMO icy prison is more of a bound/held variant.
I think you guys are misunderstanding "is treated as having a Dex score of 0". That doesn't mean they are Dex 0 (i.e. paralyzed as per actual ability score description), it means that you give them a -5 to replace their actual Dex score for any skills, Ref saves, and AC. Helpless doesn't say that they can't even move, as you can be bound in rope but still able to slug your way around, but the spell tells you that the target is trapped as well as helpless.It could have been intended that way, but treated as having a dex score of 0 must mean that it means more than just the modifier. They probably specified ''treated as'' for the purpose of ability drain.
Why would that be what they meant (instead of for what they tell you it's meant for in the following parenthesis)? The spell doesn't do ability damage, being treated as 0 would override any existing damage/drain, and having 0 dex still doesn't prevent you from attempting to move (e.g. exerting force to break the ice), just that you can't move.
A character with a Dexterity score of 0 is incapable of moving and is effectively immobile (but not unconscious).
Can a player attack their own ice for damage to break it instead of the str check? No, they need to swing for that, which they can't but their muscles can still exert the same way someone who is bound can exert against a binding rope.
Agree that "a creature" is different than "the creature" or "the target". "A creature" however is inclusive of "the target", as opposed to "another creature". eg. the target of the spell is both "a creature" and "the target". It is allowed to try and free itself from icy prison with a strength check. Though it is mostly a moot point because the DC is so high - even with the glabrezu's 10 str mod, a 10th level sorcerer puts the DC at 25 - meaning a 15 or better on the d20 roll. And if the party is fighting 2 of them, our sorcerer is probably level 13+. Making the required roll 18 or more.
Keep in mind that a creature larger/smaller than medium size gets a +/-4 to strength bursting checks per size category. So that Huge Glabrezu with +10 strength has a +18 to said DC 25.
I think you guys are misunderstanding "is treated as having a Dex score of 0". That doesn't mean they are Dex 0 (i.e. paralyzed as per actual ability score description), it means that you give them a -5 to replace their actual Dex score for any skills, Ref saves, and AC. Helpless doesn't say that they can't even move, as you can be bound in rope but still able to slug your way around, but the spell tells you that the target is trapped as well as helpless.It could have been intended that way, but treated as having a dex score of 0 must mean that it means more than just the modifier. They probably specified ''treated as'' for the purpose of ability drain.
Why would that be what they meant (instead of for what they tell you it's meant for in the following parenthesis)? The spell doesn't do ability damage, being treated as 0 would override any existing damage/drain, and having 0 dex still doesn't prevent you from attempting to move (e.g. exerting force to break the ice), just that you can't move.
A character with a Dexterity score of 0 is incapable of moving and is effectively immobile (but not unconscious).Can a player attack their own ice for damage to break it instead of the str check? No, they need to swing for that, which they can't but their muscles can still exert the same way someone who is bound can exert against a binding rope.
Agree that "a creature" is different than "the creature" or "the target". "A creature" however is inclusive of "the target", as opposed to "another creature". eg. the target of the spell is both "a creature" and "the target". It is allowed to try and free itself from icy prison with a strength check. Though it is mostly a moot point because the DC is so high - even with the glabrezu's 10 str mod, a 10th level sorcerer puts the DC at 25 - meaning a 15 or better on the d20 roll. And if the party is fighting 2 of them, our sorcerer is probably level 13+....
I was thinking that the Glabrezu should be able to make the check easy enough... but I don't think helpless creatures are capable of attempting the necessary check to begin with.
9 inches of ice in pathfinder? Barely an inconvenience. It's only 27 hp at 0 hardness. Maybe two swings from your melee party members. Even less for the Wizard as they just include you in a fireball.
The other party members helping out is a given. I did not believe it required mentioning. Perhaps you should focus on the situation my comment would make the most sense in, specifically 'a lone creature trapped in 9 inches of ice', and go from there.
It's how i would rule the spell in my home game, and i feel like it's how the spell was intented, because if we compare it to Ice Tomb, the Witches Major Hexes, that one does specify the target being paralyzed and unconcious. However, i'm still not sure if RAW a check would be allowed for a helpless creature. It all boils down to : Does that strength check involve movement? The spell does not say.
I've moved on from running games strictly RAW, as the rules were never meant to be read in lawyer-ese. I look at the spell from both a player and GM perspective, and weigh what I perceive as the intended effects. Icy Prison is a great spell, even with the way I handle it.
PERSISTENT Icy Prison is a "great spell"... even better when casted with a Cherry Blossom Spell metamagic rod...
Keep in mind that a creature larger/smaller than medium size gets a +/-4 to strength bursting checks per size category. So that Huge Glabrezu with +10 strength has a +18 to said DC 25.
Creatures get a size bonus/penalty for Attacks, AC, CMB, CMD, flying, stealth, and specifically for breaking down doors with a strength check. I'm not aware of any rules for a size modifier for breaking anything besides doors. Am I forgetting/missing a rule somewhere for that?
The "breaking down doors" rule is the same rule that all other break DCs use. And even if not, what makes a door so different from a rock that doesn't happen to look like a door, or a door made of ice, or a rock that happens to be ice that doesn't look like a door?
The point is the "burst" DCs are all meant to "be able to smash something in one blow without making an actual attack roll".
Then perhaps focus on the "Icy Prison doesn't stop it from Greater Teleporting away" section for a lone target. In the general sense, sure. A lone target would be inconvenienced by Icy Prison.
Or perhaps my party member comments were to the OP as it mentioned 2 Glabrezus.
It is hard to tell who you are specifically responding to if you don't organize the reply properly, and quote the section you are replying to.
Anyway... If you know you are fighting Glabrezus, or other creatures with teleporting effects, would you not also try to prevent such tricks with Dimensional Anchor? I know that it is something I would immediately think about before learning the Icy Prison spell. There are many ways to 'hop' out of dangerous situations at least once per day available to anyone with enough gold.
Regardless, 9 inches of ice is hardly a death sentence to the example in question, as it does 9 cold damage a round(since its CL damage)... or rather 0 because Glabrezu have Cold Resist 10. The Icy Prison blocks line of effect, so for the party to actually kill it, they have to break the ice for it. Can't Coup de Grace, no line of effect. So, how is this a bad situation for a lone Glabrezu? Sure, the party can run away or prepare, but it's not actually threatened until its also a threat.
I have no real comment about the Cold resistance. It is not something I considered bringing up, merely the consequences of being stuck in one place. There is a lot of things the party can do while the spell is running its course to prepare.
Why would that be what they meant (instead of for what they tell you it's meant for in the following parenthesis)?
The way i read it, the modifier in parenthesis is there to remind players that being at 0 dexterity is -5 modifier, because ''0'' is not listed as score on the ability scores tables. Then, being treated as having 0 dexterity, is for all shape and purpose like having 0 dexterity, except that your score is not actually 0. Which means, you can lose dexterity score if you're poisoned, drained, etc. If being helpless would reduce your effective score to 0, it would means that sleeping creature would be immune to dex damaging poison, which would be pretty silly.
The spell doesn't do ability damage,...
I never said the spell did ability damage. What i meant was what i explained in the previous paragraph. My apology if my reply was confusing.
...being treated as 0 would override any existing damage/drain, and having 0 dex still doesn't prevent you from attempting to move (e.g. exerting force to break the ice), just that you can't move.
Well, you can attempt all you want, you are not gonna succeed, because :
A character with a Dexterity score of 0 is incapable of moving and is effectively immobile (but not unconscious).
As i previously mentioned, the real issue lies in here: Can you attempt a strength check if you're immobile?
Until proven, we are without answers. Tying someone doesn't renders them helpless, it renders them pinned, and being trapped in a web renders someone entangled. I've yet to see anything, outside the neboulous wording in the rack i've cited, that point to allowing strength check to break items while immobile. The game doesn't say you can, but it doesn't say you can't. Even the ''Breaking items'' section doesn't say;
When a character tries to break or burst something with sudden force rather than by dealing damage, use a Strength check (rather than an attack roll and damage roll, as with the sunder special attack) to determine whether he succeeds. Since hardness doesn’t affect an object’s Break DC, this value depends more on the construction of the item than on the material the item is made of.
Is using ''sudden force'' something you can do while immobile? I would say no.
The "breaking down doors" rule is the same rule that all other break DCs use.
Um what?
The link I provided has a table with the strength check DCs to break vraious objects, including doors.
Then in the rules text it has
Larger and smaller creatures get size bonuses and size penalties on Strength checks to break open doors as follows: Fine –16, Diminutive –12, Tiny –8, Small –4, Large +4, Huge +8, Gargantuan +12, Colossal +16.
Now it says the bonus is to break open doors. Why should I assume the bonus explicitly listed for breaking open doors also applies to anything else that is not part of the "doors" set of objects? If that was the rule, it wouldn't have explicitly called out the bonus for doors.
As for
...what makes a door so different from a rock that doesn't happen to look like a door, or a door made of ice, or a rock that happens to be ice that doesn't look like a door...
Those are all an "Ask your GM" set of questions about whether your GM considers any of those door-like enough to qualify for the bonus. Personally for me, I'd rule that anything that is mounted like a door and shaped like a door would qualify. There is certain leverage you could take against a door mounted on hinges that would not be available when trying to break a rock just sitting on the ground for example.
@Algarik
You're allowed to make Str checks to burst free while helpless, such as being bound by rope or a spider's web. And I'm not talking about the Web spell or that Web Toss ability you mentioned earlier, or stumbling into a Spider's Web and getting Entangled, I'm talking about being wrapped up and bound by an actual Spider's Web. If you get wrapped up and bound by an actual spider's web, you're helpless. You're considered completely at the mercy of the spider. Likewise, if you're bound hand and foot with rope, you are helpless. You're laying on the ground and cannot defend yourself or even move. At best, you could "earthworm" your way across the ground at 1/2 the speed of a fart. But, you're still allowed to attempt Escape Artist and Str checks to burst free.
RopeHempen The DC to escape hemp rope bonds is equal to 20 + the CMB of the creature that tied the bonds. Ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If the DC to escape is higher than 20 + the tying creatures CMB, the tied up creature cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check. This rope has 2 hit points and can be burst with a DC 23 Strength check. Price 1 gp; Weight 10 lbs.
FYI: The Equipment Trick feat provides a number of options for using this item in combat.
Silk Rope This 50-foot length of silk rope has 4 hit points and can be broken with a DC 24 Strength check. Price 10 gp; Weight 5 lbs.
Bloodvine Rope This 50-foot length of tough, lightweight rope is made from alchemically treated bloodvine, a rare scarlet-colored vine that grows only in warm jungle environments. Though prized by climbers for its durability, bloodvine can also be used to bind creatures. Bloodvine rope has a hardness of 5 and 10 hit points, and can be broken with a DC 30 Strength check. A creature bound by bloodvine rope can escape with a DC 35 Escape Artist check or a DC 30 Strength check. The DC to create bloodvine rope with Craft (alchemy) is 30. Price 200 gp; Weight 5 lbs. Source PRG:ACG
Spider’s Silk Rope This 50-foot length of rope is woven of strands of silk from monstrous spiders. Rare to virtually nonexistent on the surface world, it is commonly used by the dark elves, though shorter spider’s silk rope scraps (generally no more than 10 feet long) occasionally appear among goblins. Spider’s silk rope has 6 hit points and can be broken with a DC 25 Strength check. Price 100 gp; Weight 4 lbs.
Helpless
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets his sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.
Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace.
I couldn't find the Paizo version of Monstrous Spider web, but I found 3.5's rules for break DC.
Monstrous Spider WebsWeb (Ex)
Both types of monstrous spiders often wait in their webs or in trees, then lower themselves silently on silk strands and leap onto prey passing beneath. A single strand is strong enough to support the spider and one creature of the same size. Web-spinners can throw a web eight times per day. This is similar to an attack with a net but has a maximum range of 50 feet, with a range increment of 10 feet, and is effective against targets up to one size category larger than the spider. An entangled creature can escape with a successful Escape Artist check or burst it with a Strength check. Both are standard actions whose DCs are given in the table below. The check DCs are Constitution-based, and the Strength check DC includes a +4 racial bonus.
Web-spinners often create sheets of sticky webbing from 5 to 60 feet square, depending on the size of the spider. They usually position these sheets to snare flying creatures but can also try to trap prey on the ground. Approaching creatures must succeed on a DC 20 Spot check to notice a web; otherwise they stumble into it and become trapped as though by a successful web attack. Attempts to escape or burst the webbing gain a +5 bonus if the trapped creature has something to walk on or grab while pulling free. Each 5-foot section has the hit points given on the table, and sheet webs have damage reduction 5/—.
A monstrous spider can move across its own web at its climb speed and can pinpoint the location of any creature touching its web.
Size Escape Artist DC Break DC Hit Points
Tiny 10 14 2
Small 10 14 4
Medium 12 16 6
Large 13 17 12
Huge 16 20 14
Gargantuan 20 24 16
Colossal 28 32 18
When you're completely bound by rope, you're considered both pinned and helpless because you're completely at the mercy of your enemy.
If you don't think this is true, then try it irl. Have your buddy tie you up with rope or duct tape with your hands behind your back and around your feet, and then tell me with a straight face that your buddy couldn't do absolutely anything he wanted to you.
And per the rules, you still get to make Str checks and Escape Artist checks even while helplessly bound.
Anywho, when you're completely encapsulated by the Icy Prison spell, there's a little bit of wiggle room, and that is clear from your ability to breathe normally. You can make a Str check to burst free, and it even says so in the spell.
Icy Prison
School evocation [cold]; Level sorcerer/wizard 5
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, SEFFECT
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target one creature
Duration 1 minute/level; see text
Saving Throw Reflex partial; Spell Resistance yesDESCRIPTION
You trap the target in solid ice 1 inch thick per caster level. If the creature fails its save, it is helpless, but can still breathe (the ice blocks line of effect to the target). If the target makes its save, it gains the entangled condition but can otherwise act normally. Whether or not the target saves, it takes 1 point of cold damage per caster level each round it is helpless or entangled in the ice. The ice has hardness 0 and 3 hit points per inch of thickness; if broken, the creature is freed. A creature can break the ice as a full-round action with a successful Strength check (DC 15 + your caster level)[/b].
And it may be tempting to get all "lawyer-y" with the rules of "A Creature" vs. "The Target" and "The Creature", but "A Creature" includes any creature, including "The Target" or "The Creature".
It all boils down to : Does that strength check involve movement? The spell does not say.
Any strength check which succeeds involves movement. Any strength check that fails does not.
eg., I walk up to a portculis, I spread my feet apart, reach down and grab the lowest crossbar, and pull with all my strength? At the time I'm making the strength check am I doing any movement?
If I succeed, I straight my back and legs, and lift the portculis off the ground. If I fail I grunt and groan, and sweat beads on my forehead, but there is no movement.
Likewise, if my hands are tied with a rope, I try and pull my hands apart. If I succeed, the rope breaks, and my hands move apart. If I fail I grunt and groan and sweat beads on my forehead, but there is no movement.
Is using ''sudden force'' something you can do while immobile? I would say no.
In the rope example, my hands are bound together, and hence my hands are immobile. Yet that does not prevent me from making a strength check to burst them.
(Let's get what the rules actually say and allow/disallow right first, then if we want to talk about how we'd rule it in our own games that's fine).
You're allowed to make Str checks to burst free while helpless, such as being bound by rope or a spider's web. And I'm not talking about the Web spell or that Web Toss ability you mentioned earlier, I'm talking about an actual Spider's Web. If you get wrapped up and bound by an actual spider's web, you're helpless. You're considered completely at the mercy of the spider. Likewise, if you're bound hand and foot with rope, you are helpless. You're laying on the ground and cannot defend yourself or even move. At best, you could "earthworm" your way across the ground at 1/2 the speed of a fart.
And i'm not talking about the spell exclusively either. The Web ability is the only ''stats'' that we have raw for what a spider web actually does. Otherwise, it's all DM fiat. I know it's silly, but RAW i still haven't find anything that clearly makes you helpless and let you attempt to break free. No were in the equipement section, or the combat section mention that a rope inflict the helpless condition. It inflict, pinned, which is a pretty nasty condition in itself, but still not helpless.
RopeHempen The DC to escape hemp rope bonds is equal to 20 + the CMB of the creature that tied the bonds. Ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If the DC to escape is higher than 20 + the tying creatures CMB, the tied up creature cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check. This rope has 2 hit points and can be burst with a DC 23 Strength check. Price 1 gp; Weight 10 lbs....
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy.
This sentence seems to me like a list of situation that would inflict the helpless condition. However, there is no where, that i've found, anything that action inflicts the ''helpless'' condition by using ropes or web. It's just not there. You can definitely choose, as a DM, that someone that's bound by a rope is helpless, but officially, they are pinned. Which is still a very nasty condition, you're denied your dexterity bonus and you get a -4 extra penalty, so you're sitting at a maximum of 6 AC if you don't have any armor or magical protection.
When you're completely bound by rope, you're considered both pinned and helpless because you're completely at the mercy of your enemy.
That's how i interpret RAI, but not RAW. Otherwise, being ''Tied up'' would mention also being helpless.
If you don't think this is true, then try it irl. Have your buddy tie you up with rope or duct tape with your hands behind your back and around your feet, and then tell me with a straight face that your buddy couldn't do absolutely anything he wanted to you.
Tie me up yourself you coward! <.<
Seriously though, i would be pretty helpless as per the definition of helpless, but i don't think i'd be helpless as part of the condition that renders you immobile. I'd be considered pinned and still in almost has much trouble as i'd have an AC of 6. I could still wiggle a bit and try to break free. (Probably failling though!)
And per the rules, you still get to make Str checks and Escape Artist checks even while helplessly bound.
That's the part i can't find. Everything that allow a check does not explicitly mention the target being helpless. Even the rack is rather nebulous RAW.
Anywho, when you're completely encapsulated by the Icy Prison spell, there's a little bit of wiggle room, and that is clear from your ability to breathe normally. You can make a Str check to burst free, and it even says so in the spell.
That's how i'd probably play it, cause i think the spell is a tad too strong otherwise, but it's still not what i'd considerer RAW.
Honestly, this just makes me realise that raw, the helpless condition is a freaking mess.
Edit: Just wanted to add, i don't expect the rule to be perfect, i'm totally fine not running things according to RAW.
The rules for being considered Helpless are any time you're completely at your opponent's mercy. Being bound hand and foot satisfies that condition.
The rules for Break DC's for making Str checks are in the various Rope entries in the equipment section.
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Throat Slicer wrote:
Prerequisite(s): Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit(s): When using a one-handed, light, or natural weapon, you can deliver a coup de grace to an unconscious, bound, or pinned target (though not other kinds of helpless targets) as a standard action.
According to that particular feat, at least, conditions that make helpless targets include unconscious, BOUND, and PINNED...
Helpless wrote:
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy.
From this, we can reasonably come to the conclusion that BOUND and UNCONSCIOUS are, without a doubt, conditions that make the target helpless... might as well add PINNED since it requires one to be HELD... being bound with ropes gives the pinned condition, therefore they also make one helpless.
Creatures bound with ropes are allowed to make Strength checks... bound/held/pinned creatures are allowed to make Strength checks...
It would make sense to allow the same to the target of Icy Prison, even if they fail their save and become helpless like someone bound or pinned.
I know that is counter to my original statement, but new information and a fresh perspective have reversed my previous stance on the matter...
It would make sense to allow the same to the target of Icy Prison, even if they fail their save and become helpless like someone bound or pinned.
I know that is counter to my original statement, but new information and a fresh perspective have reversed my previous stance on the matter...
Skill: System Mastery - LEVEL UP!
From a RAI perspective, I'm inclined to agree that you should be able to attempt to break free as a full-round action, even if Helpless.
From a RAW perspective, I think that attempting to use Escape Artist to escape from being tied up is going to be difficult due to you having an effective Dexterity of 0.
Personally I advise playing RAI.
Now it says the bonus is to break open doors. Why should I assume the bonus explicitly listed for breaking open doors also applies to anything else that is not part of the "doors" set of objects? If that was the rule, it wouldn't have explicitly called out the bonus for doors.
Because that same rule is used for bursting through confining spaces (say when you enlarge person) and the only two things mentioned on said list are doors and restraining devices. There's no structural difference between a door and a sheet of stone that is no a door, there is a difference between ropes that pin your arms in a position where you can't leverage your increased size (on top of the fact that said restraining devices would already be adjusted for your size as opposed to a door which is the same for everyone). The ice falls into the former cavity, a fixed size that confines you that you can simply burst through on one end and isn't forcing you into a compromising position like a hogtie would.
There's no structural difference between a door and a sheet of stone that is no[t] a door...
There absolutely is a structural difference. Walls do not have hinges or latches (things that tend to be weak points on a door). Bursting through a door doesn't mean ripping the door in half. It means ripping the door off its hinges/smashing through the portion where the latch is held. Watch any cop/fbi raid where they bust down a door. Those hinges and latches also mean parts of the door have been structurally comprised for screws/nails/whatever to pierce the material in order to attach the hardware.
I've kicked open a door in real life before (happened when my then 9 year old son was locked in the bathroom because the locking mechanism broke). It was actually quite easy. Kicking through a sheet of wood would not be the same (even wood that is hollow inside like modern doors tend to be).
As for enlarge person, here is the full text of the spell.
This spell causes instant growth of a humanoid creature, doubling its height and multiplying its weight by 8. This increase changes the creature's size category to the next larger one. The target gains a +2 size bonus to Strength, a –2 size penalty to Dexterity (to a minimum of 1), and a –1 penalty on attack rolls and AC due to its increased size.A humanoid creature whose size increases to Large has a space of 10 feet and a natural reach of 10 feet. This spell does not change the target's speed.
If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, the creature attains the maximum possible size and may make a Strength check (using its increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process. If it fails, it is constrained without harm by the materials enclosing it—the spell cannot be used to crush a creature by increasing its size.
All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged by the spell. Melee weapons affected by this spell deal more damage (see Table: Tiny and Large Weapon Damage). Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage. Magical properties of enlarged items are not increased by this spell.
Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack.
Enlarge person counters and dispels reduce person.
Enlarge person can be made permanent with a permanency spell.
The part I bolded is not a reference to getting the bursting through doors size bonus. It is a reference to the "...+2 size bonus to Strength..." that the spell grants. eg, if my str is normally 16, and I'm enlarged, I get to make my str check as though my str is 18 to burst from the confining space. If you are referring to some other part of the spell text, I don't know what part you are referring to.
If you have an actual rule reference that plainly shows that things other than doors get the additional bonus that the rules tell us bursting through doors gets, then quote the rule.
You know what else has hinges and latches: manacles.
Joking aside, what really separates the two (doors and the walls next the doors)? Doors made of stronger material have harder break DCs that almost universally match the material and thickness of the door to the wall, not the hinge. Hinges are never mentioned, and if said hinges matter, why aren't the doors all the same DC to burst?
What separates a metal bar door like in a jail from the rest of the metal bars? If there's no difference between the door bars and the rest of the bars, what's the difference between those bars and just any old random bar in the middle of nowhere to how a larger creature can bend it? And if it doesn't matter where the bar is, why should it matter the shape, as long as the shape and size isn't changing to match the person trying to break it?
There is more reason to say that manacles/binds are an exception negatively to the size bonus to bursting than that doors are some exception positively.
Your right, hinges and latches are never mentioned. But neither is "...structural difference between a door and a sheet of stone...". I provided you with a possible explanation for why the game designers gave a bonus for breeaking down doors. If you don't like that explanation come up with your own. But if you really want to get down to it, the RAW says against doors larger creatures get a bonus. And don't mention anything outside of doors, so... /shrug.
If you want higher realism so that pine, cedar, oak, bronze, iron, steel, copper, mithral, adamtine, stone, etc doors all have different DCs? Your the GM, set whatever DC you want. If you want a metal jail door to be the same DC as the iron bars of the cell itself? Your the GM, do what you want. If you want size/shape of the bars to make for a different DC, your the GM, set it to what you want. If you want a penalty against manacles.... again go ahead. But this isn't the forum for that. We have what the rules say. And there are things you want the rules to say that they don't - take that up with the PDT.
Or again, this is just an example of an obscure rule where they make a chart with two types of items (doors and restraints) and they don't want you to have the bonus for restraints (for a semi-realistic reasons and because it would make any restraints utterly useless even against just large creatures). It's not some intentional feature of RAW, it's an RAI oversight, which is what this forum is for.
I'm inclined to think that when they wrote
Larger and smaller creatures get size bonuses and size penalties on Strength checks to break open doors as follows: Fine –16, Diminutive –12, Tiny –8, Small –4, Large +4, Huge +8, Gargantuan +12, Colossal +16.
That they did not actually intend to say
Larger and smaller creatures get size bonuses and size penalties on Strength checksto break open doorsas follows: Fine –16, Diminutive –12, Tiny –8, Small –4, Large +4, Huge +8, Gargantuan +12, Colossal +16. This bonus does not apply when trying to break chains or ropes.
With RAI of course, we can't be certain of anything that the developers themselves don't comment on. But I don't feel you've made a solid appeal to RAI here in your favor.
Is an Icy Prison sufficiently door-like to qualifty? I personally don't feel it is. With a door you walk up to it, position yourself to give yourself the best leverage, then bust it open. With icy prison you are now held in whatever stance you happened to be in at the time - which is very unlikely to be a position where you have the best leverage. (All that in addition to my comments upthread about hinges, etc). But at this point its all very subjective. Each GM is going to have to rule at their individual table on that.