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The issue with that is that while you are slowed, moving 5ft requires the same exertion as moving 10ft when not slowed. Because you don't normally get to go 10ft with a 5ft step, you aren't spending "enough effort" (high enough of an action) to go 5ft while slowed without spending a move action. This is 5ft step is a listed action instead of just a "hey, if you don't spend a move action to actually move around, its all cool: just go 5ft anyway." Think of it as moving 5ft while slowed is effectively moving/spending 10ft of movement (5ft teleport is just weird). Besides that, its just bickering over whether or not 5ft step is subject to reduction penalties: nothing in the rules says they are or aren't immune to reduction so are they or aren't they?
I understand what you're saying, but the rules don't care about having "enough effort." The rules do not state that 5ft steps are subject to any penalties, but gives conditions in which you can take them.
Since the rules don't say 5ft steps are subject to speed penalties, they simply aren't subject to speed penalties. As long as I'm not hindered by difficult terrain or darkness, and my new speed is greater than 10ft, I am allowed by the rules to take a 5ft step. Even during Actobatics. Even in Grease.
This thread is probably spent. However, I make note that a small/medium person in one 5' square is considered adjacent to a target in the adjoining 5' square and can hit with them with fist or dagger without moving at all. Since game movement is based on the square you are moving into, I have to vote with the 5-foot step escape, although it would still require the DC 10 Acrobatics check to do it. Having to make a skill check makes it look like a move action, but I don't think it is sufficient to make it a move action. If within the Grease effect, you can do a full attack on an adjacent creature without having to make an Acrobatics check. Considering that, it seems like one could adjust out of the Grease, then perform a standard action (but not a move action since you can't take a 5' step with a move action)or full round action.
NOTE: (Skill Description) Action: None. An Acrobatics check is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation.
Were we on a floating grid, I would agree "you can X-Step out of grease" assuming you were already straddling the boarder (straddling possible because floating grid) as you would basically have one foot already out, but since this is a 5ft grid we are to assume that some of the finer details are abstracted: the abstraction for this specific case being where inside of that 5ft grid is our grease slick actually is. Should our wizard cast a grease spell, we are assuming that even though, even on the 5ft grid, no matter how he places it, the thing he wants affected is "bordering" the edge of the spell; however, in a floating grid, it could be placed it isn't possible to escape with a 5ft step. The abstraction is there to keep silly things like 5ft stepping out an effect for free (no action spent and no save required).
Because you start in grease, you are still subject to the spell which is different than say leaving a thorny shrub.
I see nothing in the rules or anything else in the game which makes a distinction between leaving a square of grease versus a thorny shrub. I apologize for not reading every post, but can you identify any other condition or spell in which you are penalized for moving out of or one that does not allow a 5' step to escape from it (excluding things that grapple you).
You're right, the game uses a lot of abstraction, but those abstractions would not singularly benefit Grease and be of no benefit to other terrain modifiers, which is what you're proposing.
Because you start inside the effects of the spell, you still have to follow the effects, even if moving out; why, because the spell does less than nothing should the above not be true, because now its a waste of space to have.
It doesn't necessarily singularly effect grease, it mean that anything conjured that's an AoE that has to do with movement (like entangle) shouldn't be assumed to be perfectly centered by a grid.
The issue with that is that while you are slowed, moving 5ft requires the same exertion as moving 10ft when not slowed. Because you don't normally get to go 10ft with a 5ft step, you aren't spending "enough effort" (high enough of an action) to go 5ft while slowed without spending a move action. This is 5ft step is a listed action instead of just a "hey, if you don't spend a move action to actually move around, its all cool: just go 5ft anyway." Think of it as moving 5ft while slowed is effectively moving/spending 10ft of movement (5ft teleport is just weird). Besides that, its just bickering over whether or not 5ft step is subject to reduction penalties: nothing in the rules says they are or aren't immune to reduction so are they or aren't they?I understand what you're saying, but the rules don't care about having "enough effort." The rules do not state that 5ft steps are subject to any penalties, but gives conditions in which you can take them.
Since the rules don't say 5ft steps are subject to speed penalties, they simply aren't subject to speed penalties. As long as I'm not hindered by difficult terrain or darkness, and my new speed is greater than 10ft, I am allowed by the rules to take a 5ft step. Even during Actobatics. Even in Grease.
Not true, if the rules do not mention anything about speed reduction/penalties, for or against their susceptibility, then they are susceptible because the specific (speed is penalized) is superior to the general (no rule on susceptibility to penalty): should humans be immune to sleep effects because their race doesn't mention susceptibility to sleep effects?
If you are under a speed reduction, your 5ft step is also affected.
I will, however, acknowledge that the line about "creatures who do not move" not having to make the save does cloud the issue. Does standing up from prone constitute "movement?" I thought maybe a FAQ answered that, but I haven't looked.
No. Movement is moving from one grid square to another.
If you are under a speed reduction, your 5ft step is also affected.Please give a rules reference to support this.
You know, the same way a 5' step becomes a 35' step when you're under a Haste spell.
You know, the same way a 5' step becomes a 35' step when you're under a Haste spell.If you are under a speed reduction, your 5ft step is also affected.Please give a rules reference to support this.
Nah, just a 10' step, since your speed is increase by 30'. This assumes of course you have a base speed of 30'. If your base speed is greater than 30' then a 30' speed increase is less than double, resulting in a 9.x' step, which gets rounded down to 5'.
So if your based speed is exactly 30', and you get hasted, you get a 10' step. Any other base speed and you can still only take a 5' step.
You know, the same way a 5' step becomes a 35' step when you're under a Haste spell.If you are under a speed reduction, your 5ft step is also affected.Please give a rules reference to support this.Nah, just a 10' step, since your speed is increase by 30'. This assumes of course you have a base speed of 30'. If your base speed is greater than 30' then a 30' speed increase is less than double, resulting in a 9.x' step, which gets rounded down to 5'.
So if your based speed is exactly 30', and you get hasted, you get a 10' step. Any other base speed and you can still only take a 5' step.
Actually, you are right but wrong words say why: increased by 30ft up to double speed; double 5ft being 10.
Byakko, why do I need rules to cite the lack of rules, you're the one claiming immunity.
@N N 959, I don't think a spell intended to hamper movement is also intended to allow 5ft stepping. (There are people who are saying mechanics lets you 5ft step out, and at the same time not within when there is no mechanical difference.) While the spell does potentially trip them once, there are other equal spells that can do that and more if grease isn't given the ability to stop 5ft stepping (which entangle is still all around better).
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@AwesomenessDog:
Difficult Terrain prevents taking a 5' step, normally. There are ways around that.
Grease does not create difficult terrain, it reduces your movement speed.
So, tell me where you get that speed reductions prevent 5' steps.
As others have pointed out, there are other things that reduce or increase your movement speed which do not directly affect whether you can take a 5' step.
And, by your reading, apparently, someone with a 30' movement speed, under the effects of a haste spell, can 5' step in difficult terrain, since their movement speed is doubled?
Equally, does that mean they can only move 10' on a 5' step, since their movement speed is doubled?
Which is why people have been asking you for a rules citation to support your contention that movement speed modifiers, other than moving through difficult terrain, affects your ability to make a 5' step.
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Here is the thing.
I looked at this thread and had read the thread that started this FAQ thread. I see the same thing said over and over.
The purpose of the spells is to make it so that the area becomes a choke point and hampers targets from transversing the area. The area of effect makes it so that any creature is on the edge of the effect at any time, so other than the first Reflex save, if creatures could 5 foot step out of the effect, the spell would not serve the purpose it is intended for.
The acrobatics itself is the "key" for this, as the check is done to be able to move, thus likely used as a move action. (either to move from within the Grease effect or to Stand Up) This is why, in my humble opinion, one can not 5 foot step out of grease.
All that other stuff about difficult terrain, movement speeds, and the color orange, seems to muddle things.
Keep in mind, Feather Step boots and like items and abilities will not help within the effects of Grease.
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The area of effect makes it so that any creature is on the edge of the effect at any time, so other than the first Reflex save, if creatures could 5 foot step out of the effect, the spell would not serve the purpose it is intended for.
The point of making a save is to be able to not be affected by a spell. Whats the point of making a save against a very powerful condition (prone) if making the save STILL screws you over?
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The area of effect makes it so that any creature is on the edge of the effect at any time, so other than the first Reflex save, if creatures could 5 foot step out of the effect, the spell would not serve the purpose it is intended for.
Please tell me how this first level spell does not serve its purpose in a 5 or 10 foot wide dungeon corridor?
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The area of effect makes it so that any creature is on the edge of the effect at any time, so other than the first Reflex save, if creatures could 5 foot step out of the effect, the spell would not serve the purpose it is intended for.The point of making a save is to be able to not be affected by a spell. Whats the point of making a save against a very powerful condition (prone) if making the save STILL screws you over?
So your contention is that the only purpose of the spells is to make one prone or drop a weapon? That the other effects should be ignored completely?
Yes, being in a confined space would make the spell more effective, but outright ignoring the effects after that first Reflex is, at best, dismissive because of the low level of the spell, and metagaming rules at worst.
It is easy enough to get out of with the acrobatics check, except for a golem as mentioned, but to regulate it to a 5 foot step is pushing the envelope.
I don't think you'll get a lot of traction here arguing that poor wittle arcane casters are not powerful enough as is. Ask Rynjin what he thinks! ;)
Oh, God, no - don't do it!
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Here is the thing.
I looked at this thread and had read the thread that started this FAQ thread. I see the same thing said over and over.
The purpose of the spells is to make it so that the area becomes a choke point and hampers targets from transversing the area. The area of effect makes it so that any creature is on the edge of the effect at any time, so other than the first Reflex save, if creatures could 5 foot step out of the effect, the spell would not serve the purpose it is intended for.
The acrobatics itself is the "key" for this, as the check is done to be able to move, thus likely used as a move action. (either to move from within the Grease effect or to Stand Up) This is why, in my humble opinion, one can not 5 foot step out of grease.
All that other stuff about difficult terrain, movement speeds, and the color orange, seems to muddle things.
Keep in mind, Feather Step boots and like items and abilities will not help within the effects of Grease.
The "intended purpose" has no bearing on the rules.
Feather Step doesn't work because it isn't difficult terrain, which in turn means 5ft steps will work since again it is not difficult terrain.
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I don't think you'll get a lot of traction here arguing that poor wittle arcane casters are not powerful enough as is. Ask Rynjin what he thinks! ;)
Heh.
I hadn't even glanced at this thread before you linked it. Grease is a plenty good spell though, one of the best 1st level spells. But not like, obnoxiously good. You can use it for like 5 different things, more if you're creative. It can be offensive, defensive, and utility. Not sure how anyone could come to the conclusion that it's not strong enough.
As for whether you can 5 ft. step through it...iffy. It does say only "difficult terrain or darkness" prevent one, though Grease could just be another example of a poorly written spell, and its slowing was meant to be difficult terrain.
I've always been under the impression that line was not a comprehensive list of things that prevent 5 ft. steps though anyway. For example, I'm pretty sure being Entangled prevents 5 ft. steps as well, and it has been so at any table I've ever played at.
May as well FAQ it.
I don't think you'll get a lot of traction here arguing that poor wittle arcane casters are not powerful enough as is. Ask Rynjin what he thinks! ;)Heh.
I hadn't even glanced at this thread before you linked it. Grease is a plenty good spell though, one of the best 1st level spells. But not like, obnoxiously good. You can use it for like 5 different things, more if you're creative. It can be offensive, defensive, and utility. Not sure how anyone could come to the conclusion that it's not strong enough.
As for whether you can 5 ft. step through it...iffy. It does say only "difficult terrain or darkness" prevent one, though Grease could just be another example of a poorly written spell, and its slowing was meant to be difficult terrain.
I've always been under the impression that line was not a comprehensive list of things that prevent 5 ft. steps though anyway. For example, I'm pretty sure being Entangled prevents 5 ft. steps as well, and it has been so at any table I've ever played at.
May as well FAQ it.
It's not 5' stepping through it (pretty sure that wouldn't be ok). It's 5' stepping out of it, so the square you're moving into (which is typically what controls insofar as difficult terrain, etc. is concerned) is not contained within the area of the spell.
I don't like the idea of allowing a 5' step out of the area of a Grease spell, because it's only a 10' area, meaning barring limited circumstances, you're always within a 5' step of being out of Grease. However, that seems to be what the rules call for and, on balance, it's a first level spell. If nothing else, it slows you up for a turn because you can't take any other movement after 5' stepping. So yeah, I'd say you can 5' step out of Grease. But not through it.
Maybe we need a Greased condition, between Grappled and Helpless.
[It's not 5' stepping through it (pretty sure that wouldn't be ok). It's 5' stepping out of it, so the square you're moving into (which is typically what controls insofar as difficult terrain, etc. is concerned) is not contained within the area of the spell.
Hm? I've never heard this interpretation before. As far as I know if your starting OR ending square is difficult terrain, that terrain is considered difficult. You can't walk through a 20 ft. area of difficult terrain one round, stop on the last square, and then 5 ft. step next round, because you're still in difficult terrain when you start.
Well, you can't do a move action and do a 5' step anyway.
Didn't say you could. I said you can't 5 ft. step next round.
Okay, sorry. I see your example is really the same situation. But I thought movement was determined by the square you were moving into. I see no movement rules in the Core book that talks about this starting / stopping thing.
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[It's not 5' stepping through it (pretty sure that wouldn't be ok). It's 5' stepping out of it, so the square you're moving into (which is typically what controls insofar as difficult terrain, etc. is concerned) is not contained within the area of the spell.Hm? I've never heard this interpretation before. As far as I know if your starting OR ending square is difficult terrain, that terrain is considered difficult. You can't walk through a 20 ft. area of difficult terrain one round, stop on the last square, and then 5 ft. step next round, because you're still in difficult terrain when you start.
You absolutely can. The square you're entering determines how much movement is required/if you can 5-ft step, not the one you're leaving.
Difficult terrain, obstacles, and poor visibility can hamper movement (see Table: Hampered Movement for details). When movement is hampered, each square moved into usually counts as two squares, effectively reducing the distance that a character can cover in a move.
Maybe the question should be: Are Grease (as an area effect) and Entanglement (plant life effect on area)spell effects that create difficult terrain?
Or, are they just spell effects that are handled by the saving throws or Acrobatics check?
That's...weird.
The acrobatics itself is the "key" for this, as the check is done to be able to move, thus likely used as a move action. (either to move from within the Grease effect or to Stand Up) This is why, in my humble opinion, one can not 5 foot step out of grease.
So if I am balanced on a tight rope, and someone attacks me on their turn, I get to make an acrobatics roll to maintain my balance. Do I need to use a move action for that?
Action: None. An Acrobatics check is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation.
Grease would be a 'reaction to a situation'. It doesn't matter if I'm 5' stepping, or using a movement move action. (Or it is part of the misc action of 5' stepping, or part of the move action of moving).
Maybe the question should be: Are Grease (as an area effect) and Entanglement (plant life effect on area)spell effects that create difficult terrain?
Or, are they just spell effects that are handled by the saving throws or Acrobatics check?
The entire area of effect is considered difficult terrain while the effect lasts.
This spell therefore prevents a 5' step. The grease spell is missing this notation, it says your movement is slowed, which already pointed out plenty up thread is an entirely different effect. But to emphasize that difference further lets also look at solid fog. Solid fog also slows movement, but then explicitly states:
A creature cannot take a 5-foot-step while in solid fog.
Now that could be just reminder text, reminder text that happens to be missing from the grease spell, and the slow spell. But that seems an awfully big oversight, particularly on the slow spell since no where in the rules does it state having your movement slowed prevents a 5' step.
Good summary. bbangerter. I just went over the spell descriptions again. I would guess the 5' step thing is mostly an issue for someone who wants to do a full attack after the 5' step. I am swayed toward the NO 5' step position now. I've never had it come up in play. People either cast the spell and run, or stand and fight with the monsters in the Grease. The monsters fight or run too.
Good summary. bbangerter. I just went over the spell descriptions again. I would guess the 5' step thing is mostly an issue for someone who wants to do a full attack after the 5' step. I am swayed toward the NO 5' step position now. I've never had it come up in play. People either cast the spell and run, or stand and fight with the monsters in the Grease. The monsters fight or run too.
They can only 5' step and full attack if a valid target has been foolish enough to stand within 5' stepping range. i.e., I don't find the argument a very compelling reason to state that you cannot 5' step out of grease (and certainly isn't supported by the rules).
So your contention is that the only purpose of the spells is to make one prone or drop a weapon? That the other effects should be ignored completely?
Didn't say that, didn't hint that, didn't imply that, and that statement is completely unrelated to anything I said.
You cast a spell on someone, they made the save. IF they can take a 5 foot step out of the area they may do so. There's nothing unfair about having minimal effect of your spell on people who made the save so arguing that its unfair isn't a very good argument against the position that you can 5 foot step out.
Yes, being in a confined space would make the spell more effective, but outright ignoring the effects after that first Reflex is, at best, dismissive because of the low level of the spell, and metagaming rules at worst.
Being able to 5 foot step out is not ignoring anything. Its a perfectly viable conclusion from the rules. I don't know if its right but its certainly viable.
It is easy enough to get out of with the acrobatics check, except for a golem as mentioned, but to regulate it to a 5 foot step is pushing the envelope.
Not everything has a good acrobatics scores, particularly fighters in plate.
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Just some random responses, not quoting the original post:
There are lots of spells where, if the target makes the save, the spell has absolutely no effect. Charm Person/Charm Monster, Hold Person/Hold Monster, Color Spray, and on and on.
There are an abundance of spells that are very situational. Glitterdust is of no use on a blind target, Contagion is of no use on a 3rd level or higher Paladin, Element X spells are of no benefit on a creature immune to element X, like Ray of Frost on a skeleton. Any Reflex save spell on a target with a good Reflex save and Evasion. Protection From Y against spells cast by a caster whose alignment is not Y.
One of many reasons why the Arcane Bonded item is such a nice thing, since it lets you pull out that situational spell when the situation arises. The same for scrolls or wands.
So, again, Grease is a great spell, in the right circumstances. 5' or 10' wide corridor? Terrific. Target with a nasty weapon and a bad Reflex save? Again, terrific. Golem on the way? Again, terrific. A limited access area, especially with a non-standard entry that can be Gresaed? Again, terrific.
Fighting a dragon outdoors, while it is flying? Not so good. You would be better served by pulling out a tanglefoot bag and readying an action to throw it at the dragon when (and if) they get close enough to you.
Fighting a swarm? Again, not good. Pull out that alchemist's fire, instead, and hit it with that.
Seriously, though, grease is a great spell when it is used tactically. It is a lousy spell, when it is used without consideration.
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Wait, why can't you 5' step in or through? According to the rules, grease should have zero impact on whether you can 5' step anywhere.Good summary. bbangerter. I just went over the spell descriptions again. I would guess the 5' step thing is mostly an issue for someone who wants to do a full attack after the 5' step. I am swayed toward the NO 5' step position now. I've never had it come up in play. People either cast the spell and run, or stand and fight with the monsters in the Grease. The monsters fight or run too.They can only 5' step and full attack if a valid target has been foolish enough to stand within 5' stepping range. i.e., I don't find the argument a very compelling reason to state that you cannot 5' step out of grease (and certainly isn't supported by the rules).
You absolutely can 5ft step within the area of Grease as well.
Wait, why can't you 5' step in or through? According to the rules, grease should have zero impact on whether you can 5' step anywhere.Good summary. bbangerter. I just went over the spell descriptions again. I would guess the 5' step thing is mostly an issue for someone who wants to do a full attack after the 5' step. I am swayed toward the NO 5' step position now. I've never had it come up in play. People either cast the spell and run, or stand and fight with the monsters in the Grease. The monsters fight or run too.They can only 5' step and full attack if a valid target has been foolish enough to stand within 5' stepping range. i.e., I don't find the argument a very compelling reason to state that you cannot 5' step out of grease (and certainly isn't supported by the rules).
Oh, I'm with you on that. 5' within is also valid IMO based on RAW. The 5' out is very clearly allowed though based on movement costs being calculated by the grid square you are entering. The RAW clearly allows within as well, but I can see that that may not be the RAI (but it will need an errata to the spell to fix that if the current RAW does not match RAI).
Wait, why can't you 5' step in or through? According to the rules, grease should have zero impact on whether you can 5' step anywhere.
If you take a less pedantic approach to RAW, a square that halves your movement and difficult terrain aren't all that different.
If you take a less pedantic approach to RAW, a square that halves your movement and difficult terrain aren't all that different.
Wait, why can't you 5' step in or through? According to the rules, grease should have zero impact on whether you can 5' step anywhere.
This would then brings us back full circle to "Does being under the effects of a slow spell prevent taking a 5' step?" - unless you want to argue that a slow spell doesn't hamper your movement? Or it doesn't halve your movement?
I would concede though, that I'm not sure the RAI of grease is supposed to be what the current RAW is, but I'm also not sure here that RAW isn't indeed the intended RAI. (My gut feel is that grease should just be listed as difficult terrain instead of its current wording, with added effects of requiring acrobatics checks, saves, etc)
But I don't believe that pointing out that difficult terrain costs 2 squares of movement being similar to movement speed being halved actually solves this issue (primarily because of other effects that slow movement, and the 5' steps own text that talks about a 5' step being possible unless your speed is reduced to 5')
This would then brings us back full circle to "Does being under the effects of a slow spell prevent taking a 5' step?" - unless you want to argue that a slow spell doesn't hamper your movement? Or it doesn't halve your movement?If you take a less pedantic approach to RAW, a square that halves your movement and difficult terrain aren't all that different.
Wait, why can't you 5' step in or through? According to the rules, grease should have zero impact on whether you can 5' step anywhere.
Let me start by saying that my answer to the big question is agnostic: I don't know.
I'm pretty sure you can step OUT of the grease, and I'm thankful to this thread for learning that its the square you step into that matters.
But slow isn't the right comparison to grease. Slow is clearly not difficult terrain or darkness while Grease is... terrain that is difficult but not neccesarily difficult terrain on a really weird technicality?
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The definition of DT is worded so that it's exclusive. In other words, you can't qualify to be Difficult Terrain, you have to be specifically designated as "difficult terrain." Why do this? So that you can have terrain that shares the effects or penalties of difficult terrain, without triggering all the drawbacks.
By example, you can have grease work just like difficult terrain in several apsects, but because it's not officially given that label, anything that applies for difficult terrain doesn't apply for grease because it's not actually DT.
Now, that's conjecture on my part. Paizo has also given us the walk-and-talk-like-a-duck doctrine. Grant it, that was under the context of abilities, but it's possible it could apply to this example as well.
But I can see a preference for having to actually designate something as DT rather than have it be automatically included.
So, a couple of questions fo ryou:
Someone is in actual difficult terrain. Someone casts a Slow spell on them. Are these effects cumulative, so that his movement speed is halved, and it costs 2 squares of movement per square moved in the difficult terrain?
Now, change it to Grease being cast while the target area was already difficult terrain. Are these effects cumulative as well?
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Pathfinder, like 3.5, has a precedent that negative effects stack. So yes, I would say that Slow plus Grease would stack. Apply Slow first i.e. reduce your total squares of movement. Then pay the movement cost for grease.
Grease doesn't have a movement cost, it applies the same halving speed as Slow does.
Grease:A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Acrobatics check.
Slow: A slowed creature moves at half its normal speed (round down to the next 5-foot increment), which affects the creature's jumping distance as normal for decreased speed.
Edit: So, shouldn't a slowed creature moving through a greased area be moving at 1/3 speed?
I will, however, acknowledge that the line about "creatures who do not move" not having to make the save does cloud the issue. Does standing up from prone constitute "movement?" I thought maybe a FAQ answered that, but I haven't looked.
Actually the rule for prone covers it pretty explicitly:
Prone: The character is lying on the ground. A prone attacker has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A prone defender gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.
Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity.