That would be... Difficult, at best, Dahak is CE last i remember, Asmo is LE, Apsu is LG, and Orcus doesnt exist as far as pathfinder is concerned, meaning that several hate each other and one doesnt exist in golarion
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The usual forms of pantheon worship can be described as 'collective' and 'situational'. In 'collective' worship you'd usually give prayers/offerings to all the powers at once ('Great powers of death and devastation, grant me the power to smite my enemies'). In 'situational' worship you'd give prayers/offerings to different members of the pantheon when engaging in activities within their sphere, on their holidays, et cetera ('May Asmodeous witness this binding contract'. 'May Lamashtu bless this unholy birth').
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I know that most of us live (in the real world) in monotheistic cultures, so it's hard to understand how polytheism works.
In ancient times, say, in Grece, people believed in the whole pantheon. Zeus, Apollo, Poseidon, Ares, Athena, etc. All of them. Each of those gods did something unique: Poseidon was master of the sea, Ares was a god of war, Artemis was goddess of the hunt, etc. When an ancient Greek wanted to do something, he would pray to THAT god, whichever god reigned over the thing our Greek wants to do. He would usually pray for success at what he was trying to do. This prayer often included an offering. So a sailor about to leave on a voyage would pray to Poseidon for calm seas and a safe trip, a farmer about to plant a field would pray to Demeter for a bountiful harvest, etc.
In Golarion, a monotheist would worship one god to the exclusion of the rest, while a pantheist would worship all of them the way I described above, making offerings and prayers to whichever god he needs at this moment based on what he's trying to do right now.
That's the easy way to handle it.
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Current day Hinduism is great example of polytheism in action. Often, people have three special gods that they honor above all others: the god of their village, the god of their family and the god that they resonate with personally. But they'll venerate a number of others on a daily basis. When I was an exchange student in Pune, my host mother had about twelve little statues on her shrine that she venerated daily, offering them fruit (which she would later eat, or serve to us) and annointing their foreheads with red powder.
One of those deities was a plastic statue of Jesus. A previous host student had tried to convert her, and she decided that Jesus seemed like a nice god, and she added him to the little group of gods that she paid homage to daily.
There would also be festivals (so many it seemed like every week there was a new one) where we'd visit temples and honor different gods on their special days.
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Okay, enough real world... Let's return to Golarian.
It bugs me that the Pathfinder rules force a sort of monotheism for religious characters in our pantheistic setting. Because they don't want people gaming the system by deriving mechanical benefits from worshipping multiple deities, most PCs can only "worship" one deity (though they may "venerate" others.)
If you really want to be pantheistic, you either have to pick one primary while venerating others, or you have to play someone whose powers do not derive from the gods.
Hmm
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Very carefully.
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I personally see no problem with a Cleric, Paladin, etc... showing proper veneration to Gods other than his particular Patron, so long as they are not in opposition to each other. A Paladin of Iomedae, encounters a Cleric of Sarenrae. They each wish the blessing of their own and the other's deities upon them. No problem.
A Cleric of Erastil who works tirelessly on behalf of his community is asked to sit in judgement over an accused. He prays to Erastil for wisdom, but might also offer respectful words to Iomedae to see that Justice is served.....or perhaps thanks both Erastil and Shelyn for the healthy birth of a new child.
As long as their own deity always takes the highest precedence, I see no issues there.
Now, common folk who do not derive power from a deity, most likely would always pray to whomever is relevant in a given situation....just like those of use who are polytheistic do now and historically.
It bugs me that the Pathfinder rules force a sort of monotheism for religious characters in our pantheistic setting. Because they don't want people gaming the system by deriving mechanical benefits from worshipping multiple deities, most PCs can only "worship" one deity (though they may "venerate" others.)
I don't think monotheism is really the right way to look at this. Think of it as the character is allowed to be initiated and ordained into only one priesthood. I could see organizations not wanting their priests beholden to more than one primary patron. It would help avoid conflicts of interest.
Eberron had rules for clerics who follow a pantheon instead of a single deity. It was pretty basic, you got to pick two domains from any deity in the pantheon.
It is very common for my PCs to favor Shelyn and/or Desna. Since i like the idea of traveling , music and doing good deeds.
Honestly , i find quite hard to only pick one of the 2 , reason i go with both often :P.
Currently i have a CG sorc that favors 2 major gods and 1 empyreal lord called Lara that the GM made. I favor Lara the most since i had direct contact with her and lived in her plane for a long period of time , still i will pray and do things for all of them.
I believe the term is "monolatry," which is entirely different from "monotheism."
Also, "henotheism".
And kathenotheism.
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Check with your GM.
Common wisdom James Jacob's style is : alignment within one step of the deity and Cleric has to be dedicated to the deity she worships (ie, no multiclassing with other divine classes unless they are to the same deity).
Here : Urgothoa (NE), asmodeus (LE), Zon Kuthon (LE), Nethys (N), Dahak (CE), Lamashtu (CE), Zura (CE), Orcus (CE, does exist in Pathfinder), and Pharasma (N).
So a NE character could indeed worship them all.
Note that it will be difficult to reconcile Urgathoa, Orcus and Pharasma (and maybe Zura) who tend to be opponents or rivals as far as undead are concerned. That said, if your PC has no level in a Divine class, maybe they just don't care about this specific mortal's ideas.
Checking the portfolios and domains might give ideas about what he likes in this pantheon.
Some kind of Oracle might be nice too.
In rules terms (I forget where I read this), you can only worship one god to the extent that you get mechanical benefits from it. You can 'venerate' multiple gods but only 'worship' one.
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In rules terms (I forget where I read this), you can only worship one god to the extent that you get mechanical benefits from it. You can 'venerate' multiple gods but only 'worship' one.
I believe this is PFS rules.
The post I referred to above :
Can a character worship different gods (while respecting the alignment rule) and use these to qualify for different classes (base or Prestige).
For example, can a LG character be simultaneously a Paladin of Iomedae, an Inquisitor of Erastil, a Cleric of Abadar and a Mystery Cultist of Ragathiel ?
Depends on your GM.
I would not allow it, though, because devotion to one deity implies that you're following that deity's rules and ethos and all that, and if you're doing that with multiple deities, you're not following any one deity's teachings well enough to deserve to gain power from that deity.
If you want to worship, say, Erastil, Abadar, Iomedae, and Ragathiel, that's fine... but you have to worship them all more or less equally. That means you could be a paladin and inquisitor and even a mystery cultist... but you could not be a cleric.
I've been involved in a few strict on the rules games and the following have applied:
1) No clerics of an ideal/concept
2) Oracles cannot prestige class into Evangelist/Exalted
A cleric by default has to worship one God
An Oracle by default draws power from an unknown group of Gods
I'm not saying I necassarily agreed but I can completely see how RAW this would apply... Whats good for the gander is good for the goose!
I've been involved in a few strict on the rules games and the following have applied:
1) No clerics of an ideal/concept
I'm not saying I necassarily agreed but I can completely see how RAW this would apply... Whats good for the gander is good for the goose!
... but that's in direct opposition to the rules....
Y'know, the simple solution would be to worship an entire pantheon... but pantheons don't seem to exist in Golarion, safe for the Ancient Orison Gods, all modeled after Egyptian Deities.
Also, worshipping a pantheon would make your character Neutral or Lawful Neutral, because your character would have treat all ideals of the pantheon's deities as equal.
It can be done... we just don't have pantheons in the current game yet.
... but that's in direct opposition to the rules....
Hmmmm.... not really
Being a cleric of an ideal is very much within the guidelines of the DM and not at all permitted in Golarion.
And there is nothing concrete rules wise(as far as I am aware) of Oracles going into Evangleist/Exalted...
The description of Oracle clearly states...
Unlike a cleric, who draws her magic through devotion to a deity, oracles garner strength and power from many sources, namely those patron deities who support their ideals. Instead of worshiping a single source, oracles tend to venerate all of the gods that share their beliefs.
To go into Evangelist/Exalted you have to completely dedicate yourself to the worship of a single deity.... beyond that what is expected even for a normal cleric.... hence the Deitific Obedience and Boons.
... but that's in direct opposition to the rules....Hmmmm.... not really
Being a cleric of an ideal is very much within the guidelines of the DM and not at all permitted in Golarion.
And there is nothing concrete rules wise(as far as I am aware) of Oracles going into Evangleist/Exalted...
The description of Oracle clearly states...
Unlike a cleric, who draws her magic through devotion to a deity, oracles garner strength and power from many sources, namely those patron deities who support their ideals. Instead of worshiping a single source, oracles tend to venerate all of the gods that share their beliefs.
To go into Evangelist/Exalted you have to completely dedicate yourself to the worship of a single deity.... beyond that what is expected even for a normal cleric.... hence the Deitific Obedience and Boons.
Except you just jumped over the english there.
tend to isnt equal to have to
If they in general tend to workship many gods , then clearly there are exceptions that only workship one.
Otherwise it wouldnt say tend to.
Except you just jumped over the english there.tend to isnt equal to have to
If they in general tend to workship many gods , then clearly there are exceptions that only workship one.
Otherwise it wouldnt say tend to.
Fair point.... although in reality I probably still wouldnt do it due to loss of FCB and additional level of casting in terms of the Evangelist
... but that's in direct opposition to the rules....Hmmmm.... not really
Being a cleric of an ideal is very much within the guidelines of the DM and not at all permitted in Golarion.
But the cleric class specifically says that you can be a cleric of an ideal, it doesn't say "ask your GM permission if you want to use this" it's "Work with your GM if you prefer this path to selecting a specific deity.". Also, I still haven't seen a non-PFS rule that says they aren't permitted in Golarion.
I also find it abit amusing that in 2011 James Jacobs was saying clerics of ideals are banned because then there would be able to be clerics of Razmiran. Despite the fact that the rules for clerics of ideals don't work in a way, with examples like "such as battle, death, justice, or knowledge". Also that later on in 2014 he says things like "I'm not saying, and NEVER claimed, you can't play a cleric of a concept or niche or ideal who doesn't worship a deity in your game, even if that game is set in Goalrion." Though he did continue on to clarify that when paizo makes clerics they always make sure to follow the guideline of always have a deity and basically admits that "no ideal clerics" are effectively a houserule by paizo with "When you play in a game, you play by the GM's rules. And in PFS... Paizo is the primary GM." Which is a rather nice stance to take really.
Having Urgathoa and Pharasma in the same worship list is asking for trouble
This might be the same adherence to religious consistency in the rules that lead to Pharasma's Death Domain giving clerics Animate Dead, Create Undead and Create Greater Undead as domain spells.
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This might be the same adherence to religious consistency in the rules that lead to Pharasma's Death Domain giving clerics Animate Dead, Create Undead and Create Greater Undead as domain spells.
IIRC, in Inner Sea Gods they give alternate spells for clerics of Pharasma with the Death domain to replace the undead-creating ones. Archives of Nethys' entry on Pharasma has the alternates under "Other Rules" at the bottom.
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... but that's in direct opposition to the rules....Hmmmm.... not really
Being a cleric of an ideal is very much within the guidelines of the DM and not at all permitted in Golarion.
But the cleric class specifically says that you can be a cleric of an ideal, it doesn't say "ask your GM permission if you want to use this" it's "Work with your GM if you prefer this path to selecting a specific deity.". Also, I still haven't seen a non-PFS rule that says they aren't permitted in Golarion.
I also find it abit amusing that in 2011 James Jacobs was saying clerics of ideals are banned because then there would be able to be clerics of Razmiran. Despite the fact that the rules for clerics of ideals don't work in a way, with examples like "such as battle, death, justice, or knowledge". Also that later on in 2014 he says things like "I'm not saying, and NEVER claimed, you can't play a cleric of a concept or niche or ideal who doesn't worship a deity in your game, even if that game is set in Goalrion." Though he did continue on to clarify that when paizo makes clerics they always make sure to follow the guideline of always have a deity and basically admits that "no ideal clerics" are effectively a houserule by paizo with "When you play in a game, you play by the GM's rules. And in PFS... Paizo is the primary GM." Which is a rather nice stance to take really.
I'm pretty sure all the Campaign Setting stuff on this says that clerics of an ideal aren't allowed, not just PFS. In 2011, James Jacobs said that clerics of ideals are banned because then one wouldn't be able to know who is a god, and who isn't effectively - clerics of Aroden and clerics of Razmiran would both work in the most recent years of the campaign setting, which doesn't make sense for how the world works. The world new that Aroden was dead because his clerics lost their powers. The world knows that Razmir isn't a god because he can't grant clerics their powers. A cleric can just claim to be a cleric of Razmir even if he really is a cleric of an ideal - he's officially a Cleric of Knowledge, but he can claim to be a cleric of Razmir, and people would not be able to tell the difference. Theoretically an oracle can try to do the same, but it is possible to differentiate between the powers of an oracle and a cleric in the game world with sufficient effort. I interpret his comment in 2014 as you can houserule that clerics of ideals are allowed - it's your game, you can do as you want is basically how I interpret it. The canon, official rule is that you can't, but feel free to change that.
On top of that it is a little silly in terms of balance - if you can simply select ideals that allow you to get whatever domains you want in whatever combination, it does feel a little more powerful than actually being a cleric of a God. Though enough gods have been added by now that I doubt it makes much of a difference.