Is deep forest green to overused for silken ceremonial armors or could i pull it off?
Wait, no, this thread is asking advice for style feats.
I am toying around with an Unchained Monk build and am wondering about some styles. First off, i am mainly considering a STR, WIS, DEX, CON, INT, CHA stat focus which plays into how useful some styles are. I like all four of Pummeling, Jabbing, Snake and Dragon styles. I am not sure about focusing on just one or switching around for a "movement phase" and "attack phase" style.
Dragon makes charging much easier and adds a nice oomph to each hit, it looks like it would be a good always on style.
Pummeling is a great choice for moving around and can be paired with feather step slippers for better charging options. The pounce effect is the obvious big draw but overcoming DR is tempting too. Does it outweigh Dragon style?
once in melee is it worth switching styles up? Snake is nice for the super dodge, new damage types can be useful (especially if swallowed as rare as that is) one you get snake fang it gets to be lots of fun. But i wont have the highest DEX to make full use of Snake.
Jabbing... after the errata Jabbing looks really fun, especially as an unchained monk can get a lot of attacks in thanks to flurry, ki, elbow smash, etc. 5-6 attacks at level 6 is easily doable. so that extra 4-5 D6 is very tempting. Jabbing Master is more of an investment but means you can reasonably get an extra 12D6-ish in on each full attack.
I havent done the math but i think Jabbing style wins out over the strength damage boost of Dragon style once you get Jabbing Master. Snake requires enemies to keep swinging at something they cant hit to get the best benefit which can be beyond your control. Pummeling is always sexy thanks to pounce.
And then there are all those other feats you could possibly want too.
What does everyone else think? are there feats enough to split into two styles, a charging style and a stand and swing style?
Is the unchained monk accurate enough to get good use of Jabbing style?
How often does a Snake master get to make use of all of those AoOs?
Torbyne wrote: I am toying around with an Unchained Monk Personally, I'm not a big fan of Unchained Monk. I like the Will Save better than the BAB, and I like getting Still Mind sooner than later. It matters for if you want to be a Drunken Master or want to multiclass and take Monastic Legacy.
Torbyne wrote: How often does a Snake master get to make use of all of those AoOs? I did well with Snake Fang when I had it. Something to bear in mind: when you are a Master of Many Styles, you don't get Flurry of Blows, so you might as well wear armor. Wearing Armor, you no longer LOOK like a Monk with sneaking defensive tricks, so they won't be expecting you to be racking up those AoOs.
Also bear in mind that Snake Fang is not a very expensive effect: it only costs 3 Feats. You can get other things. You can take Thunder and Fang, using an Earthbreaker in one hand, a Klar in the other, and reap Attacks of Opportunity when people attack and miss. You can take 4 levels in Druid and a level in Warpriest and take 5 attacks/round as a Megaraptor and get your AoOs. You get the idea. Snake Fang doesn't have to be the foundation of your whole build.
Anyway, it shouldn't be: you can't take Snake Fang until level 9 thanks to the errata.
My last 3.5 character combined Elusive Target and Improved Trip. To recapture that effect I was thinking Panther-Snake Style. You run around provoking attacks of opportunity, getting Retaliatory Strikes in the bargain, and if the attacks miss, you get an AoO from Snake Fang. What would make this awesome is if you were a Goblin. Now you get Underfoot, Tangle Feet, and Roll with It. Also acquire a Crown of Swords. You move through opponents' squares. If you make your Acrobatics checks, you tie their shoelaces together and watch them fall down. If you fail, you get a Panther Claw swing. If the attack misses, you get an AoO with Snake Fang. If they hit, that activates the Crown of Swords, and you get to make a Roll-with-It-Reflex Save. If it succeeds, you go skittering off in any direction you choose, presumably in the direction of the most opponents, maximizing your Retaliatory and AoOs, knocking everybody over like a little, green bowling ball!
Torbyne wrote: Is deep forest green to overused for silken ceremonial armors or could i pull it off? You can't go wrong with classics.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Torbyne wrote: I am toying around with an Unchained Monk Personally, I'm not a big fan of Unchained Monk. I like the Will Save better than the BAB, and I like getting Still Mind sooner than later. It matters for if you want to be a Drunken Master or want to multiclass and take Monastic Legacy.
Torbyne wrote: How often does a Snake master get to make use of all of those AoOs? I did well with Snake Fang when I had it. Something to bear in mind: when you are a Master of Many Styles, you don't get Flurry of Blows, so you might as well wear armor. Wearing Armor, you no longer LOOK like a Monk with sneaking defensive tricks, so they won't be expecting you to be racking up those AoOs.
Also bear in mind that Snake Fang is not a very expensive effect: it only costs 3 Feats. You can get other things. You can take Thunder and Fang, using an Earthbreaker in one hand, a Klar in the other, and reap Attacks of Opportunity when people attack and miss. You can take 4 levels in Druid and a level in Warpriest and take 5 attacks/round as a Megaraptor and get your AoOs. You get the idea. Snake Fang doesn't have to be the foundation of your whole build.
Anyway, it shouldn't be: you can't take Snake Fang until level 9 thanks to the errata.
My last 3.5 character combined Elusive Target and Improved Trip. To recapture that effect I was thinking Panther-Snake Style. You run around provoking attacks of opportunity, getting Retaliatory Strikes in the bargain, and if the attacks miss, you get an AoO from Snake Fang. What would make this awesome is if you were a Goblin. Now you get Underfoot, Tangle Feet, and Roll with It. Also acquire a Crown of Swords. You move through opponents' squares. If you make your Acrobatics checks, you tie their shoelaces together and watch them fall down. If you fail, you get a Panther Claw swing. If the attack misses, you get an AoO with Snake Fang. If they hit, that activates the Crown of Swords, and you get to make a Roll-with-It-Reflex Save. If... Really? I am surprised, the chained monk never seemed to work to me, at least not without purpose specific archetypes. I havent played an Unmonk yet but it looks very promising.
I am trying to avoid multiclassing, after your second dip you might as well keep dipping as you are pushing advanced abilities too far back. I think everyone has had a mess of a character once with 1-3 levels in 4-5 classes at some point or another. The last one i did was for an unarmed combatant actually, some monk, fighter, slayer, alchemist mix-up. A part of this is to test out the Unmonk and see how well it handles.
All of the styles are competing for the same feat slots too, i could have any of the four full up by level 9. i am just not sure which are worth the investment. Pounce will be useful in just about every combat but doesnt really kick in until the end of the style. dragon is a solid little boost but isnt as flashy and doesnt feel like it has as much progression. Snake is situationally awesome but as you point out, works best with a different stat array and dipping around. Jabbing... i am not sure, i think i just like he idea of piles of dice. at the higher levels though it comes out to what, an extra 11.5 damage per hit? That seems respectable.
I like Unchained Monk more than Core Monk no question. Style Strikes are awesome, and the lower will saves isn't bad when the class already drives you to have a high wisdom for AC and Ki.
That said, you can still be more powerful with a chained monk than an unchained monk with system mastery and proper archetypes.
It is much easier to make a good unchained monk than chained monk, and that alone make me recommend the unchained version for players new to the class.
I have played some very bad monks. I have built some good monks by jumping through too many hoops and helped other players build monks that they didnt want to go through the hassle of making. the level of "system mastery" needed to build a good chained monk irks me.
I havent seen an Unmonk in play yet but it looks good on paper.
I am currently leaning towards Pummeling and Jabbing and think there are just enough feats in the build to pull it off.
Pummeling has no prereqs other than level so just two set aside and its done.
Jabbing needs three in the style chain plus Dodge, Mobility and Power Attack. Dodge and Mobility are available as Monk freebies so yay. I am not sure if Power Attack is a worthwhile trade without a built in accuracy booster to the class. the level 10 bonus feat goes to Medusa's Wrath because it makes Jabbing Master so much more awesome.
At theoretical end game the character can spend a point of Ki and a Stunning fist attempt to pounce with up to 9 attacks, 7 of which are based on highest BAB. If the target survives you can switch to Jabbing and reasonably grab an extra 18D6 on top of your regular damage for the same 1 Ki and i stunning fist.
In practice i know Stunning Fist isnt a guarantee but otherwise 5 solid swings from BAB with the scaling rider is sexy too.
Assuming starting strength of 18+2 level +4 belt gives a mod of 7 +11 BAB + AoMF(+2). So 5-7 swings at +20 vs an AC of 25-28, looks solid. Is that enough to push Jabbing over Dragon do you think?
Torbyne wrote: I am trying to avoid multiclassing, after your second dip you might as well keep dipping... I think everyone has had a mess of a character once with 1-3 levels in 4-5 classes at some point or another. Yeah, that's what I do. The mess doesn't bother me at all.
Torbyne wrote: you are pushing advanced abilities too far back. Quite true, but I don't consider that to be a problem. I prefer to build a fighting character upon the accumulation of Feats and bonuses rather than the attainment of high-level class abilities. Wholeness of Body, Diamond Body, Diamond Soul, and Purity of Body are all cool, but with 2 levels each of Monk, Ranger, Alchemist, Cavalier, and Fighter, your Saves will be so high you'll be nigh immune to poisons and diseases anyway, and you can get a Wand of Cure Light Wounds and use it with that level in Ranger (or Alchemist). Abundant Step? A level in Arcanist, maybe 2.
Imbicatus wrote: Style Strikes are awesome, and the lower will saves isn't bad when the class already drives you to have a high wisdom for AC and Ki. I'm not familiar with the Style Strikes Unchained Monk Ability. I will take another look.
Torbyne wrote: The last one i did was for an unarmed combatant actually, some monk, fighter, slayer, alchemist mix-up. Sounds cool to me. How did it work?
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Torbyne wrote: I am trying to avoid multiclassing, after your second dip you might as well keep dipping... I think everyone has had a mess of a character once with 1-3 levels in 4-5 classes at some point or another. Yeah, that's what I do. The mess doesn't bother me at all.
Torbyne wrote: you are pushing advanced abilities too far back. Quite true, but I don't consider that to be a problem. I prefer to build a fighting character upon the accumulation of Feats and bonuses rather than the attainment of high-level class abilities. Wholeness of Body, Diamond Body, Diamond Soul, and Purity of Body are all cool, but with 2 levels each of Monk, Ranger, Alchemist, Cavalier, and Fighter, your Saves will be so high you'll be nigh immune to poisons and diseases anyway, and you can get a Wand of Cure Light Wounds and use it with that level in Ranger (or Alchemist). Abundant Step? A level in Arcanist, maybe 2.
Imbicatus wrote: Style Strikes are awesome, and the lower will saves isn't bad when the class already drives you to have a high wisdom for AC and Ki. I'm not familiar with the Style Strikes Unchained Monk Ability. I will take another look.
Torbyne wrote: The last one i did was for an unarmed combatant actually, some monk, fighter, slayer, alchemist mix-up. Sounds cool to me. How did it work? Style strikes are awesome, Elbow Smash is always an appropriate choice against anything that can take nonlethal, which is most things. and since those smashes are seperate attacks you can count them for jabbing style and get those sweet bonus D6s all the higher.
I dont have the full plan in memory but it was alcehmist 2 for vestigial arm x2 (one class, one feat) Slayer 2 for natural combat style (claws) Brawler Archetype Fighter for +2 hit/ +3 damage, MoMs 2 for style fusion pummeling/dragon. I think it was back to slayer after that, or maybe barbarian. by that point you had Feral Combat Training and four claws doing 1D6+1.5 STR +3 using Pummeling Dragon Charges. Mutagen and Rage could boost strength obscenely and dragon meant you got 1.5 bonus from that.
Torbyne wrote: I dont have the full plan in memory but it was alcehmist 2 for vestigial arm x2 (one class, one feat) Slayer 2 for natural combat style (claws) Brawler Archetype Fighter for +2 hit/ +3 damage, MoMs 2 for style fusion pummeling/dragon. I think it was back to slayer after that, or maybe barbarian. by that point you had Feral Combat Training and four claws doing 1D6+1.5 STR +3 using Pummeling Dragon Charges. Mutagen and Rage could boost strength obscenely and dragon meant you got 1.5 bonus from that. Normally, Vestigial Arms don't grant you extra attacks. You could use them in combat in certain ancillary ways, say using a heavy shield in your 3rd arm while wielding 2 weapons in your other 2.
But maybe. The Lesser Beast Totem Rage Power specifically gives you 2 Claw Attacks. The Feral Mutagen Discovery specifically gives you 2 claw attacks. So, if you have 4 arms via 2 Vestigial Arms to put those 4 Claws on, that gives you 4 Claw Attacks. Maybe? That sounds legal, but a lot of GMs would HAAAATE that.
My idea for getting 4 Claw Attacks is to use Monstrous Physique to Polymorph into a 4-Armed Sahaugin. Another option, of course would be to take 4 levels in Druid and Wild Shape into things that give you multiple attacks such as an Allosaurus, a Megaraptor, or--my favorite--a Giant Octopus! Take some levels in Warpriest to up your Damage. Be a human and take Martial Versatility so you can apply special abilities to any Animal you 'Shape into. Maybe get a Wand of Strong Jaw or take Improved Natural Weapon.
If you go unchained, I'd rely on flying kick instead of pummeling charge, and take Dragon Style as your style feat chain.
High strength is obviously good.
I recently started an unchained monk for the first time.
Low will save I like joking about at the table, but so far I haven't failed one yet. Still not a fan of giving it up. I dont like getting Still mind later either, but getting ki strike sooner is a bigger thing imo. Means you can punch ghosts at lvl3 rather than lvl4.
I am going dragon style focusing on STR > WIS > DEX/CON > INT > CHA
Went with a very balanced array of stats 16 14 14 10 15 08 too.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Normally, Vestigial Arms don't grant you extra attacks. You could use them in combat in certain ancillary ways, say using a heavy shield in your 3rd arm while wielding 2 weapons in your other 2.
But maybe. The Lesser Beast Totem Rage Power specifically gives you 2 Claw Attacks. The Feral Mutagen Discovery specifically gives you 2 claw attacks. So, if you have 4 arms via 2 Vestigial Arms to put those 4 Claws on, that gives you 4 Claw Attacks. Maybe? That sounds legal, but a lot of GMs would HAAAATE that.
No, that doesn't work. The fact that both of them give you claw attacks doesn't overrule the restriction that vestigal arms cannot give you extra attacks.
agree with Weirdo, the moment you think you've got some way around Vestigial arms not giving you extra attacks is the moment you're breaking the rule that Vestigial arms do not give extra attacks.
Weirdo wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Normally, Vestigial Arms don't grant you extra attacks. You could use them in combat in certain ancillary ways, say using a heavy shield in your 3rd arm while wielding 2 weapons in your other 2.
But maybe. The Lesser Beast Totem Rage Power specifically gives you 2 Claw Attacks. The Feral Mutagen Discovery specifically gives you 2 claw attacks. So, if you have 4 arms via 2 Vestigial Arms to put those 4 Claws on, that gives you 4 Claw Attacks. Maybe? That sounds legal, but a lot of GMs would HAAAATE that.
No, that doesn't work. The fact that both of them give you claw attacks doesn't overrule the restriction that vestigal arms cannot give you extra attacks. Well, the OP's GM seems to have allowed it: I'm just conjecturing how.
The way I like to get multiple claw attacks is by using Monstrous Physique to turn into a 4-armed sahaugin.
I dont want to derail this into another vestigial arms thread, i am legitimately seeking advice on style feats for an unchained monk... but the vestigial arms relied on a race with pre-existing claws who had an entirely legal attack of claw/claw/unarmed strike/unarmed strike. the unarmed strikes used the legs to kick so they did not double up on use of limbs. Alchemist added two arms that could not be used to generate a higher number of attacks but could be used to make the same number of much higher quality attacks. the ranger combat style added a second pair of claws onto the vestigial arms allowing a permanent replacement of the two unarmed strikes with extra claw strikes. The RAW legality was done to death a year or two ago and was entirely rules legal. several other parts of the build have since been errata'd and it no longer works as it once did.
My favorite style in general would have to be Crane Style with a sword, switching between one and two handed grips. Kung Fu Broadsword forever!
BadBird wrote: My favorite style in general would have to be Crane Style with a sword, switching between one and two handed grips. Kung Fu Broadsword forever! Is that even with the post errata changes and rechanges to the feat chain? i could see it as a Nine-Ring Broadsword/Crane Wing character but thought that the new Crane just isnt all that appealing. it may be because i got to play with the really outstanding original version though. I feel that Snake is a better defensive style since you can boost Sense Motive so insanely high what with being a WIS based class and all the feats available.
Has anyone done the math for Dragon vs. Jabbing? It really intrigues me how Jabbing scales and makes accuracy so important for it to pay off. I see a monk realistically ending up with a strength as high as 26 by late game so dragon adds 4 damage per hit. Jabbing will be extremely swing-y but once jabbing master is in play it averages ~8 per hit against CR+3. maybe? There are a lot of variables in play on that one.
I actually quite like how Crane ended up. By any standard, adding +4AC on top of Dodge vs. all targets and another +4AC against a called target is a pretty formidable defense, assuming you've got the wherewithal to already have a decent AC. What I really like about it now is that the counter-attack is dependent on a foe missing you, while before you actually had to get "hit" by a foe before you got to deflect and counter.
The biggest plus though with Crane is that with an Unchained Monk wielding a sword, you're swinging away with full two-handed strength and power attack with an easily-enhanced weapon, and you can get an extra one-handed attack per round. Using one attack per round for a Style Strike means you can enhance a Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes instead of the more expensive Amulet of Mighty Fists.
Jabbing is very powerful, but only if you're stringing together all your attacks on a single target; the attacks that really start to hurt are typically lower ab as well. It also does nothing to improve standard attacks. If you really want to maximize unarmed damage there's always Combat Style Master to switch at will, though that's incredibly feat-intensive.
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I'm loving Ascetic Style. Only problem is that Ascetic Strike is useless for monks, but it's nice for any other class using monk weapons.
It's freaking awesome for shuriken users.
Melee weapon only.
Also, some Monk archetypes trade out Still Mind, and improvements to unarmed strike damage.
Ah, missed the melee weapon requirement. Still, the Special line should allow Shuriken, as it says A 5th-level monk or character with the weapon training (monk) class feature can use Ascetic Style with any monk weapon, in addition to the chosen melee weapon.
Far Strike Monk is what you want.
blackbloodtroll wrote: Far Strike Monk is what you want. Not really, as it's tied to Ki usage. Warpriest is close, but what I really want is a monk that can use unarmed damage with shuriken all the time, not just for one round with a ki point.
Well, you can just go with Kunai.
Ascetic Style works with them.
So isn't the Third feat do nothing about the damage dice? Since the first one applies effects that modify unarmed strikes and the FAQ said that the monk's increase to unarmed strike dice work for natural attacks in FCT when it had the same wording?
It does if you are not a Monk, multiclass Monk, or certain Monk archetypes.
AH gotcha, yeah that makes sense. So Monks and Brawlers have no bonus except the part with "Monastic Legacy feat" right? Because their unarmed increase bonus would start with the first feat right?
Yeah, i was confused by both follow on feats in the chain. I would assume "affects that augment your unarmed strikes" would normally include improved die size, style strikes et al. which would mean the other two feats dont do anything..? Its cool though, i had never seen that style. But Imbicatus sounds right, the style isnt all that good for a monk.
@BadBird - If you read the Ultimate Combat errata from 8/20 I think you'll find that Crane Wing and Riposte might work a little differently from the way you've described. In particular, you don't choose the foe who you get +4 AC against. You just get it the first time each round when somebody would have hit you by 4 or less. I also wouldn't be surprised if some DMs question whether you should be able to make a full attack with a two-handed weapon and still have your hand free for Crane Wing.
Devilkiller wrote: @BadBird - If you read the Ultimate Combat errata from 8/20 I think you'll find that Crane Wing and Riposte might work a little differently from the way you've described. In particular, you don't choose the foe who you get +4 AC against. You just get it the first time each round when somebody would have hit you by 4 or less. I also wouldn't be surprised if some DMs question whether you should be able to make a full attack with a two-handed weapon and still have your hand free for Crane Wing. Good grief, changed again. Still quite similar... on the up-side the +4AC bonus remains until it's useful, while on the down-side we're back to a situation where you lose your counterattack if your AC was too good. I'm a little lost as to the point of this change...
As far as not being able to change grips goes, a GM is, naturally, free to alter the stated rules regarding free action grip-changes, but they should be willing to face the consequences regarding things like a Paladin not being able to cast with a light shield and weapon, or a reach Cleric not being allowed to cast a spell and then re-arm his weapon to make reach AoO's. Seriously, if you can be making two-handed reach AoO's "while" casting a spell with one hand, you can be making two-handed attacks "while" using one hand to defend. Personally I can visualize the second thing a lot more easily than I can visualize the first.
BadBird wrote: Devilkiller wrote: @BadBird - If you read the Ultimate Combat errata from 8/20 I think you'll find that Crane Wing and Riposte might work a little differently from the way you've described. In particular, you don't choose the foe who you get +4 AC against. You just get it the first time each round when somebody would have hit you by 4 or less. I also wouldn't be surprised if some DMs question whether you should be able to make a full attack with a two-handed weapon and still have your hand free for Crane Wing. Good grief, changed again. Still quite similar... on the up-side the +4AC bonus remains until it's useful, while on the down-side we're back to a situation where you lose your counterattack if your AC was too good. I'm a little lost as to the point of this change...
As far as not being able to change grips goes, a GM is, naturally, free to alter the stated rules regarding free action grip-changes, but they should be willing to face the consequences regarding things like a Paladin not being able to cast with a light shield and weapon, or a reach Cleric not being allowed to cast a spell and then re-arm his weapon to make reach AoO's. Seriously, if you can be making two-handed reach AoO's "while" casting a spell with one hand, you can be making two-handed attacks "while" using one hand to defend. Personally I can visualize the second thing a lot more easily than I can visualize the first. Those re-errata's are why i was so wary of the feat chain. Its been redone so many times and is so distant from its starting point that i am just burned out on the concept. I can pump Snake's Sense Motive up to a ridiculous level and use that as my once per round dodge and otherwise draw in more AoOs with having a generally great AC.
I somehow forgot that Combat Style Master was a thing. I am now considering a Jabbing Snake mix up where i switch to Snake at the end of a round and back to Jabbing at the start. I may end up shifting the stat array to pump DEX a little more and try to get more AoOs in.
a dual talented human such as:
Str 14 (+2 Racial)
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 16 (+2 Racial)
Cha 8
My thinking is that a strength of 18 isnt so all important if you arent getting 1.5 strength modifier to damage and already have a full BAB progression. Even better is that the Unmonk can generate so many attacks off full BAB instead of taking iterative or TWF penalties. Combat Reflexes will bring the character up to three AoOs per round and could eventually have a decent chance of using them all with Snake Fang.
Level 1: Jabbing Style, Dodge
Level 2: Combat Reflexes
Level 3: Snake Style
Level 5: Combat Style Master
Level 6: Mobility
Level 7: Jabbing Dancer
Level 9: Jabbing Master
Level 10: Medusa's Wrath
Level 11: Snake Sidewind
Level 13: Snake Fang
That gives a starting AC of 17 which is pretty good in my experience and a possible extra D6 on a full attack, not the worst place to be at level 1. Snake Style at level three is a good option for moving around a crowded field as you can use the check against ranged or melee, touch or standard attacks. At five you get the best of both worlds where you can boost offense during your actions and turn on defense afterwards. Offense scales up continuously with more attacks made and better bonuses to them until level 13 when you have a large jump in AoO potential and counter attacks.
Too bad only a MoMS can have both active at once, it looks like the bonus damage from Jabbing would apply to Snake Fang counter attacks.
Thoughts on the concept?
Torbyne wrote: But Imbicatus sounds right, the style isnt all that good for a monk. Actually, the style is fantastic for monks, especially unchained ones. It's just that the final feat in the style chain is not good for a monk unless you multiclass out of monk or are a sohei or other archetype that trades out unarmed die progression.
Unchained monk can acquire Formless Mastery at level 8 - get +4 dodge AC, +4 circumstance attack and up to +20 damage per hit for the price of a ki power. There are drawbacks, of course: It can't be combined with any styles and it costs 1 ki per round. So it's rather a monk version of smite evil than your new standard move. That said, it doesn't burn 3 feats like a complete combat style.
SheepishEidolon wrote: Unchained monk can acquire Formless Mastery at level 8 - get +4 dodge AC, +4 circumstance attack and up to +20 damage per hit for the price of a ki power. There are drawbacks, of course: It can't be combined with any styles and it costs 1 ki per round. So it's rather a monk version of smite evil than your new standard move. That said, it doesn't burn 3 feats like a complete combat style. Only against someone in an active style feat. Formless mastery is terrible for a PC unless you are only fighting rival martial artists. It's only value is for a GM to make a NPC tailored to attack style users.
Imbicatus wrote: Torbyne wrote: But Imbicatus sounds right, the style isnt all that good for a monk. Actually, the style is fantastic for monks, especially unchained ones. It's just that the final feat in the style chain is not good for a monk unless you multiclass out of monk or are a sohei or other archetype that trades out unarmed die progression. Ascetic Style seems to offer very little to a monk unless i am missing something; it lets you get around the high cost and limited bonuses of an Amulet of Mighty Fists. It also lets you use a 19-20/2 instead of a 20/x2 threat range. To a lesser extent it can protect you against those creatures that cause damage when struck with a natural attack. the second and third feats in the chain dont do anything new for a pure classed monk though, do they?
Since you can only have one style active at a time this looks like it eats up a valuable slot that could be providing a lot more. If there was a 18-20 monk weapon it might be a lot more tempting but even then i dont get why its being rated so highly.
Edit: Is there a specific combination with the style to make it shine? A Kurisagama perhaps to threaten from 0-10' with your unarmed damage? or the Kyoketsu shoge?
blackbloodtroll wrote: Ascetic Style?
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I did not know about those feats. Thanks! They might be an interesting option for an Esoteric Magus. If I'm reading Ascetic Form correctly it would let them use Spellstrike with a weapon even though they ordinarily can only use it with their unarmed strikes.
Torbyne wrote: Imbicatus wrote: Torbyne wrote: But Imbicatus sounds right, the style isnt all that good for a monk. Actually, the style is fantastic for monks, especially unchained ones. It's just that the final feat in the style chain is not good for a monk unless you multiclass out of monk or are a sohei or other archetype that trades out unarmed die progression. Ascetic Style seems to offer very little to a monk unless i am missing something; it lets you get around the high cost and limited bonuses of an Amulet of Mighty Fists. It also lets you use a 19-20/2 instead of a 20/x2 threat range. To a lesser extent it can protect you against those creatures that cause damage when struck with a natural attack. the second and third feats in the chain dont do anything new for a pure classed monk though, do they?
Since you can only have one style active at a time this looks like it eats up a valuable slot that could be providing a lot more. If there was a 18-20 monk weapon it might be a lot more tempting but even then i dont get why its being rated so highly. Ascetic style on its own allows you to use your monk IUS damage with your weapon, and allows you to enhance a weapon with spells like strong jaw or blessed fist. It also allows you to apply any feat that applies to unarmed strikes to the weapon, such as Belier's Bite, Stunning Fist, or Elemental Fist. It also allows you to use a weapon two-handed for 1:3 power attack in a flurry, and 1.5 STR to damage in a flurry for unchained monks.
Ascetic Form is mostly for Unchained Monks, as it allows you to use any of the Style Strikes with the weapon instead of unarmed strike, removing the one real weakness of weapon using unchained monks.
It allows you to bypass an amulet of mighty fists, which lets you pick a different ki power than barkskin, and really increases DPR for any weapon using build.
It's sky blue for unchained monks, blue for chained ones, and the fact that monks can ignore the third style feat is a bonus, as they have less bonus feats to play with.
Where are the Ascetic Style Feats from? I can't seem to find them.
Gisher wrote: Where are the Ascetic Style Feats from? I can't seem to find them. Weapon Master's Handbook. It's one of the new weapon style feats for melee weapons.
Imbicatus wrote: Gisher wrote: Where are the Ascetic Style Feats from? I can't seem to find them. Weapon Master's Handbook. It's one of the new weapon style feats for melee weapons. Thanks! I've already heard of so many good things in that book. Now I have another reason to buy it.
I can see a lot of use for Ascetic Style in other character builds but for a pure monk it just looks like a work around for needing an Amulet of Mighty Fists still. Saving some money upfront instead of actually adding something cool to a character like Snake Style does.
Partly i think that has to do with the lack of interesting monk weapons. I almost exclusively use a scimatar, falchion or nodachi. The only monk group ones that i really take notice of are the Nine-ring Broadsword and the Shuriken.
I am a little irked that it is a style feat i guess, it would be great for the initial feat to just be a combat feat, possibly as something a monk can select at level 6 or above as a bonus feat. the third feat does nothing for a monk and without the benefit of the second feat calling it out, i would have assumed style strikes are an effect that augment unarmed strikes since each style strike calls out what kind of unarmed strike it augments.
For a monk the best use i can see is just grabbing the first feat in the chain and waiting unitl level five when you can start busting out some devastating shuriken flurries.
The biggest advantages with a weapon Monk are arguably two-handed Power Attack flurry and an improved critical range. For me it's less about a weapon Monk being 'better' than about a weapon Monk being my conception of what warrior-monk should be. Ascetic Style... that's going to make things like Unchained Monk 1/ Cleric even more interesting now.
I suppose, my warrior-monk concepts just dont go as esoteric with their weapon choices. The old accuracy problems of the monk have left me extremely wary of taking any penalties to the hit roll, even for Power Attack. No one else here seems to feel that way though, is the Unmonk that much improved?
As far as i can tell, all other full BAB classes have a trick to boost their hit/damage, rage, weapon training, favored enemy, studied target etc. the monk gets scaling damage die boosts but nothing to their accuracy. Do their extra attacks at "regular" accuracy make up for that?
Torbyne wrote:
As far as i can tell, all other full BAB classes have a trick to boost their hit/damage, rage, weapon training, favored enemy, studied target etc. the monk gets scaling damage die boosts but nothing to their accuracy. Do their extra attacks at "regular" accuracy make up for that?
Yes, A full BAB class doesn't need a bonus to accuracy to hit on their first iterative, the accuracy boost is mostly to help with later attacks. An unchained monk can have up to four attacks at their full attack bonus in a flurry before even getting to the iteratives, just from a flurry. This isn't counting extra attack from style strikes, viscous stomp, medusa's wrath, or other feats or ways to add additional attacks to a routine.
Imbicatus wrote: Torbyne wrote:
As far as i can tell, all other full BAB classes have a trick to boost their hit/damage, rage, weapon training, favored enemy, studied target etc. the monk gets scaling damage die boosts but nothing to their accuracy. Do their extra attacks at "regular" accuracy make up for that?
Yes, A full BAB class doesn't need a bonus to accuracy to hit on their first iterative, the accuracy boost is mostly to help with later attacks. An unchained monk can have up to four attacks at their full attack bonus in a flurry before even getting to the iteratives, just from a flurry. This isn't counting extra attack from style strikes, viscous stomp, medusa's wrath, or other feats or ways to add additional attacks to a routine. I thought they had something like that going on. I'm still not sold that the benefit of using a single weapon is better than the benefits other styles provide for a monk. That may be because i am too lazy to try mathing out the cost of AoMF vs. a single weapon vs. accuracy and DPR at various CRs.
Its not the concept i first imagined but a cleric of shizuru 1/Unchained Monk X with crusdaer's flurry and Ascetic Style is now on my list of concepts to play.
Imbicatus wrote: Only against someone in an active style feat. Formless mastery is terrible for a PC unless you are only fighting rival martial artists. It's only value is for a GM to make a NPC tailored to attack style users. Hmm, you are right. Should have become sceptical when I saw the amount of bonuses.
Torbyne wrote: Its not the concept i first imagined but a cleric of shizuru 1/Unchained Monk X with crusdaer's flurry and Ascetic Style is now on my list of concepts to play. Note #1 - Domain Strike: Gentle Rest.
Note #2 - Monk Bonus Feat: Medusa's Wrath.
Sliceslicesliceslicesliceslicesliceslice....
BadBird wrote: Torbyne wrote: Its not the concept i first imagined but a cleric of shizuru 1/Unchained Monk X with crusdaer's flurry and Ascetic Style is now on my list of concepts to play. Note #1 - Domain Strike: Gentle Rest.
Note #2 - Monk Bonus Feat: Medusa's Wrath.
Sliceslicesliceslicesliceslicesliceslice.... O
I am actually really happy to have found a way to build an unarmored sword master. I've wanted that kind of character for years. I still want to try an actual unarmed combatant at some point but I am going to work through this new concept a bit first.
There are a lot of pieces to the cleric monk build. It looks like dual talent human is still the best.
Str 16 (+2 racial)
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 14 (+2 racial)
CHA 8
Level 1 unmonk: power attack, dodge
Level 2 cleric of Shizuru
Level 3 unmonk: weapon focus - katana
Level 4: n.a.
Level 5:crusader's flurry
Level 6: n.a.
Level 7: domain strike
Level 8: n.a.
Level 9: ascetic form
That is the basics of it online already, thoughts?
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